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Thread: Covenant and Christians

  1. #1
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    Covenant and Christians

    I read somewhere that somebody on the forum mentioned that we as Christians are not part of either the Old or New covenant, but cannot find it. Maybe I am getting old. Could those that believe this way please direct me to either a document on the internet where it is discussed in detail, or give me your way of thinking as I am trying to study this but would like to get input from this side of the scale as well.
    Shama - A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Doesn’t make sense. He’s a God of covenants. Of course we are in a covenant. Even unbelievers are though they refuse to acknowledge such.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Hi Louwrens

    See the thread about Depart from me I never knew you in Bible Chat.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    You may be referring to a discussion Walls and I were having. He denies there is any such thing as a "Christian Covenant." I found that confusing, but since we've had similar discussions we felt we were falling into the same old rut, the same old arguments. And yes, I believe it was the thread mentioned.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Louwrens Erasmus View Post
    I read somewhere that somebody on the forum mentioned that we as Christians are not part of either the Old or New covenant, but cannot find it. Maybe I am getting old. Could those that believe this way please direct me to either a document on the internet where it is discussed in detail, or give me your way of thinking as I am trying to study this but would like to get input from this side of the scale as well.
    Hi Louwrens,

    I am probably the culprit. You can find extensive pro and con on the thread; “I never knew you - depart from Me” are Christians (Matt.7:23) But the thread has run to over 200 postings and it would be quite a job to piece the matter together because the matter of Covenant was addressed about halfway through although it has nearly nothing to do with the original Thread. So, it is good that you have started a new thread, and I will give you a summary of my understanding of the matter, which then, you can agree to or object. I will begin with this text - Romans 9:3-5.

    3 "For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
    4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
    5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen."


    In this text we have wealth of information, but the salient points are;
    verse 3. Israelites are Paul's "BRETHREN according to the flesh". The genealogy of Israel is Abraham - Isaac - Jacob and Jacob's name is changes to Israel. He produces 12 sons and these form the NATION of Israel. Since this line is from the womb, it is called "according to the flesh". This is in OPPOSITION to the Church, which are NOT born of the flesh, but by the Spirit of God (Jn.1:12-13). So Paul also has "BRETHREN according to the Spirit". The text is addressed to those who come from Isaac by sexual union and the womb, and who rejected Jesus, and who persecuted the early Church - Israel.
    Verse 4. It is to this NATION according to the flesh - Jacob's sons and their offspring, that the Covenants are given. Let me list the main Covenants. But first we must DEFINE "Covenant". This is not difficult. It is an binding agreement between TWO parties with rewards for compliance, and penalties for non-compliance. The Covenants are:
    1. That of the Rainbow made with all men on the face of the earth (Gen.9:17). God promises not to destroy the earth by water again, and man must not eat blood and administer the death penalty for murder. Since this Covenant is made with all men, it applies to Israel. Acts 15:20, 29 and 21:25 show that the Church is also under it.
    2. That of PROMISE to Abraham. God PROMISES to give Abraham the Land of Canaan, and later the whole earth (Rom.4:13), make him a father of many nations, give him fame, wealth and the ability to subjugate his enemies. Abraham's side is just circumcision of all male seed. Because Israel are SEED of Abraham, this Covenant applies to Israel. But because Christ is "SEED" of Abraham, as verse 5 establishes, those who are IN Christ, and proceed OUT OF Him, the Church, these who are IN Christ are ALSO eligible for the Covenant of PROMISE. The Church is thus included in the Covenant of PROMISE (Gal.3:29)
    3. That of Law at Sinai. God gives Israel the Land by PROMISE, but TO STAY IN THE LAND AND BE BLESSED DEPENDS ON THEM CARRYING OUT GOD'S LAWS (Deuteronomy 4:26, 5:33, 11:9, 30:18 and 32:47). See also the blessings and curses of the Law in Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28. These LAWS also contained the regulation of the SERVICE to God's first House - the Tabernacle, and later, the Temple. This Covenan is made with Israel ALONE (Ex.34:27, etc.)
    4. That of (a) The Passover, (b) The Sabbath, (c) The Levitical Priesthood and (d) the Davidic Covenant. These are Covenants made with Israel ALONE and are regulated by the Law of Moses
    5. That of the NEW COVENANT. Both Jeremiah 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:8-10 state unequivocally that it will be a future Covenant of God's Law made with Israel when they are united and restored again - that is, when Israel is ONE HOUSE again. By dividing Israel and Judah, the Holy Spirit left no doubt as who He was talking about. Since Rehoboam, Solomon's son, Israel has been divided into these two camps. Since these scriptures say that it will be a Covenant of Law, and Christ has confirmed that the Law of Moses will not pass till heaven and earth pass, it is easy to see that the New Covenant with united and restored Israel is the SAME LAW. And it serves the same purpose - to serve God in His House and be morally upright so that thy do not pollute the Land like they, and the heathen before them, did, and were cast out of the Land.

    The reason that Christ's blood, which is shed for our, and the whole world's sin (singular - Jn.1:29) and sins (plural - 1st Jn.2:2), is also involved in the New Covenant, is that every Covenant made between God and fallen man, had to be "purged by blood" (Heb.9:22). So Noah sacrificed and God accepted the Covenant, Abraham "cut" the animals and guarded them until God passed through them alone (for it is a Covenant of Promise. And Moses sacrificed (Ex.24:8). That is, a Covenant with God MUST BE RATIFIED BY BLOOD. And the New Covenant of Law IS RATIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF SLAIN JESUS. This does not mean that it is immediately INSTITUTED. It is a Covenant "IN THAT DAY"! Which day? The day when Israel is restored to their Land, and the day when the TWO houses of Israel are ONE AGAIN. It is the "third" day of Hosea 6:2 - the Third "one-thousand year" day after Christ - or, what we call the Millennium.

    Christians, for some unknown reason, most probably started by the Roman Church, have INSERTED THEMSELVES INTO THIS NEW COVENANT OF LAW, but
    • not one single verses in the whole Bible includes Christians in this Covenant. Only Israel, Paul "brethren according to the flesh" are named as Co-Covenanters in this Covenant
    • Christians are BARRED from making Covenants according to Matthew 5:33-36.

    The Covenant of Promise was to give Israel the Land. The Covenant of Law, made 430 years later (Gal.3:17), was to establish Israel's righteousness to STAY in the Land and their righteousness to make them ritually clean to serve God in the Tabernacle/Temple. The Christian too must be found RIGHTEOUS ... righteous enough to have God dwell IN him/her and have fellowship with God IN them. But this righteousness IS ESTABLISHED BY CHRIST Who fulfilled the Law, and THIS ESTABLISHED RIGHTEOUSNESS IS IMPUTED to the Christian when he believes, or, has FAITH.

    Thus, the Christian HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE COVENANT OF LAW, OLD OR NEW! To attempt to mix into the Covenants of LAW, the Christian is saying that Christ's perfection under Law was (1) NOT GOOD ENOUGH, and (2) that THEIR righteousness is better. The book of Galatians addresses this and it is the most harsh and abrupt book of the new Testament. GOD HAS DEEMED CHRIST'S RIGHTEOUSNESS AS THE WAY TO FELLOWSHIP AND SERVICE TO HIM. Let no Christian contradict that and try to set up THEIR RIGHTEOUSNESS by Law. If they TRY (for it cannot be done), then Galatians 5:4 states the shocking case! "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."

    I know that many Christians believe we are under the New Covenant of Law. But consider it for yourself. WHY would you want to be under Covenant, and why would you want to be under Law? What does it serve? And finally, WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES?

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Walls, a couple of questions.

    Do you not think that Israel and Judah are one in Christ?
    Are there a different path for Israel and Judah? One not through Christ?
    Jer 31:32* Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:*
    What are the consequences of them breaking the covenant? Can you say it is still in effect when it is broken? How can you reclaim or mend that which is broken?
    Can you still claim the blessings or promises of the covenant if you have broken it or are only the curses still in effect?
    Why do the church practice communion if it is not for them, as it is in remembrance of the covenant and what Jesus has done?
    1Co 11:25* After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.*

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    This gives me the info I wanted. It will take time to read through it as I am writing a commentary on Isaiah 1 to 35. But I needed the info to get info from that side of the scale also. I do not necessarily agree with any current views expressed as I believe Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant was applicable to Israel as congregation according to Exodus 12, and never as a nation, and we as Church is as a continuation of the Old Covenant but a better covenant with Jesus as Lamb.

    "And Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover. No stranger shall eat of it. But every man's servant that is bought for silver, when you have circumcised him, then he shall eat of it. A foreigner and a hired servant shall not eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house. You shall not carry any of the flesh out of the house. Neither shall you break a bone of it. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall stay with you, and desires to keep the Passover to Jehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it. And he shall be as one that is born in the land. And no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law to the native, and to the visitor that stays among you. So all the sons of Israel did. Even as Jehovah commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did. And it happened the very same day, that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies". (Exo 12:43-51)

    But I need to look at all current viewpoints as I try and answer all questions a person may have and not leave anything open to interpretation. So I will not participate any further.
    Shama - A primitive root; to hear intelligently (often with implication of attention, obedience, etc.; causatively to tell, etc.): - X attentively, call (gather) together, X carefully, X certainly, consent, consider, be content, declare, X diligently, discern, give ear, (cause to, let, make to) hear (-ken, tell), X indeed, listen, make (a) noise, (be) obedient, obey, perceive, (make a) proclaim (-ation), publish, regard, report, shew (forth), (make a) sound, X surely, tell, understand, whosoever [heareth], witness

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I know that many Christians believe we are under the New Covenant of Law. But consider it for yourself. WHY would you want to be under Covenant, and why would you want to be under Law? What does it serve? And finally, WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES?
    Walls, where do you hear this phrase "New Covenant of Law"? I've been a Christian for 35 years and have never heard it once.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Louwrens Erasmus View Post
    This gives me the info I wanted. It will take time to read through it as I am writing a commentary on Isaiah 1 to 35. But I needed the info to get info from that side of the scale also. I do not necessarily agree with any current views expressed as I believe Jesus came to fulfill the Old Covenant and the Old Covenant was applicable to Israel as congregation according to Exodus 12, and never as a nation, and we as Church is as a continuation of the Old Covenant but a better covenant with Jesus as Lamb.

    "And Jehovah said to Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the Passover. No stranger shall eat of it. But every man's servant that is bought for silver, when you have circumcised him, then he shall eat of it. A foreigner and a hired servant shall not eat of it. It shall be eaten in one house. You shall not carry any of the flesh out of the house. Neither shall you break a bone of it. All the congregation of Israel shall keep it. And when a stranger shall stay with you, and desires to keep the Passover to Jehovah, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it. And he shall be as one that is born in the land. And no uncircumcised person shall eat of it. There shall be one law to the native, and to the visitor that stays among you. So all the sons of Israel did. Even as Jehovah commanded Moses and Aaron, so they did. And it happened the very same day, that Jehovah brought the sons of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies". (Exo 12:43-51)

    But I need to look at all current viewpoints as I try and answer all questions a person may have and not leave anything open to interpretation. So I will not participate any further.
    *[[Jer 31:31]] KJV* Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    *[[Jer 31:32]] KJV* Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:

    There is a point here to be made. The point is this: the NEW covenant, to be made with the houses of Israel and Judah, is to replace the OLD covenant, the covenant of the law [WRITTEN ON TABLES OF STONE, or simply just written down] that was made at Mt. Sinai. [2 subpoints].
    A. This NEW covenant is to replace the OLD covenant. That old covenant, not unlike the new one, is made with the houses of Israel [then only one house, but still comprising the same people] and Judah. Gentiles were NEVER under the old covenant [unless they agreed to circumcision].
    B. The OLD covenant was the laws of God written on tables of stone, i.e., written down so they can be read. Whereas, and in like manner, the NEW covenant will be the laws of God, written in men's hearts. I don't think it is necessary to explain that when Christ comes into our hearts, via faith in him, that he, in his sinless nature, is the expression of God's laws written on our hearts.

    Verse list:
    Heb 8:6-13 KJVBut now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

    What does this all mean? These verses in Hebrews 8 tells us that there has to be an old, before there can be a new covenant. Though Christ is the mediator of the New covenant, it is only to be a NEW covenant with the houses of Israel. Gentiles, were never under the OLD covenant of laws written down from the hand of God. So, to Gentiles, it is not proper to call it the NEW covenant, just simply the covenant of the spirit of grace. It is the same covenant for everyone, JEWS AND GENTILES, that Christ oversees. It is only considered NEW to them (Jews). The language in Hebrews 8 suggests that when a "Jew" gets saved he enters into the new covenant, dispelling the old covenant and replacing it with the new one. But Gentiles merely enter into that covenant with God, by having faith in Christ. Christ is not (in essence) that covenant, nor is he the testator of that covenant, but he is the mediator, the go between, of the [New] covenant between God the Father and [each] man who chooses to enter into it. The provisions of that covenant, eternal life, are only imposed with the death(s) of the testator(s)... men who believe! Until the death of the body of flesh and blood, we have only entered into that eternal covenant, and are given the promise of the holy spirit, as being the "earnest money", the down payment, the firstfruits evidence, given by God himself, as to him entering into this covenant, with all who believe/ have believed on Christ.

    Both covenants, NEW & OLD, are covenants of the law. The first one is written on tables of stone. And the second one is written on the tables of the heart. The first merely permeates the flesh and blood Oracle of the mind. Whereas, the second covenant permeates the flesh and bone Oracle of the spirit. The mind is the temporal element of the physical realm. And the heart is the eternal element of the spiritual realm. Both are housed within our bodies. When God, who is eternal spirit, breathed in man, the breath of life, then Man, who was physically temporal, became a LIVING soul. He went from becoming a temporal, physical creature, to one that would live forever in that physical house, known as his body. The NEW eternal covenant replaces the old temporal covenant of the physical realm. When the veil of the temple was rent in twain, it did not do away with the covenant of the law. It revealed the way into the holiest place, where God himself dwells. Think on that for a moment. It revealed the means by which the temporal dwelling of man (in a physical body) could enter into the eternal dwelling of God. It did not do away with the physical element of the law, but it revealed how the temporal body of man could be united with the eternal element of the spirit [of God]. God, who is eternal spirit is holy. Man, who is temporally, flesh and blood, is created with a body that can never attain to the holiness that is found within the essence of God himself. Man, thru the work of Christ, who thru the eternal spirit, offered up his blood TO GOD THE FATHER, opened up the door so that eternal God and temporal man could be forever united as one. Christ is the mediator between God and man. Without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sins.
    Blessings
    The PuP

    One final point:
    The NEW covenant replaces [not has replaced] the OLD covenant that the houses of Israel and Judah, were under. Until a "Jew" has faith in the work of Christ, they are still under the old Covenant, trusting in works of righteousness for their eternal life. The NEW covenant replaces the old covenant of the law , AND NOT the covenant made with Abraham. That covenant, with Abraham, gives them an eternal right to the land of promise. It has nothing to do with eternal life. Those provisions are found in the covenants [New and Old] of the law. It is the conduct of righteousness that entitles them to dwell in that land and NOT TO THE LAND ITSELF. It is the conduct of eternal, sinless righteousness [found in the (NEW) COVENANT of the law] that entitles them, and now to everyone, to live forever, under the lordship of Jesus Christ.
    Blessings

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I know that many Christians believe we are under the New Covenant of Law. But consider it for yourself. WHY would you want to be under Covenant, and why would you want to be under Law? What does it serve? And finally, WHERE ARE THE SCRIPTURES?
    That is so confusing. I don't know of *any* Christians, except perhaps on this Forum, who would say it this way! Where do you hear among Christians "New Covenant of Law?" That's an oxymoron! The New Covenant is in opposition to the Mosaic Law! The New Covenant contains law, but is incompatible with THE Law! What Christians believe this--since you claim there are many?

    Again, the New Covenant was enacted and went into effect at Christ's death and resurrection. The New Covenant will take effect for Israel *as a nation* when Christ returns. This is what Jeremiah was talking about--not when the New Covenant would be initiated for the world, but when the New Covenant will actually produce fruit in national Israel. It was a prophecy of when Israel as a nation would be restored. Christ himself said that *he* initiated the New Covenant at his 1st Coming.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    I’ve never heard of New Covenant of Law either.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Add me to the list of having never heard of a New Covenant of Law

    A church belief movement?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Add me to the list of having never heard of a New Covenant of Law

    A church belief movement?
    It's not that hard to see Slug. That covenant has principally only one provision.
    I WILL WRITE MY LAWS ONTO THEIR HEARTS.
    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1
    Add me to the list of having never heard of a New Covenant of Law
    Its gonna be a loooooooooong list.
    "Your name and renown
    is the desire of our hearts."
    (Isaiah 26:8)

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    It's not that hard to see Slug. That covenant has principally only one provision.
    I WILL WRITE MY LAWS ONTO THEIR HEARTS.
    Blessings
    The PuP
    But that is not what God uses as a "designation" to name a covenant. Besides, that verse is what God reveals concerning the work of the Holy Spirit, inside of and upon the life of the believer.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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