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Thread: Covenant and Christians

  1. #121
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Here we disagree. This is because I believe that Paul wrote dealing with those who were WITHOUT the knowledge of the OT and so were not Jews, but also without knowledge of Christ. This we read in Romans 2.
    Now do any Jews not know about Jesus? I am not sure there are any - however what do they know about Jesus? Have they been told the truth? I believe there will be many Jews who have not accepted Jesus who will be granted immortality - however that will only occur at the Last Judgement.
    The theme of Romans 2 is focused mainly on the Jews. Those without the law (Gentile) were mentioned only briefly in verses 14-15. The rest of the chapter discussed the fate of the Jews and highlighted the character of a true Jew (v28). So I don't know what you're disagreeing with or why you claimed Romans 2 is about those without knowledge of the law?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My point was though that UNTIL Jesus returns, or the Last Judgement there is no immortality given and no removal of distinctions.
    Until that time then, distinctions remains and anyone without knowledge of Jesus may still live by faith.

    Further, and in some ways more important are the promises made to the Jews, which are for them alone due to their ethnicity. This is not about salvation but about God and His Word.
    Well, I neither argued that ethnic distinction is removed before Christian returns nor that immortality is given. If anything, I concurred on both counts.

    I agree that people will still live in faith until Jesus returns, but the question is - who or what do they have faith in? Muslims have faith in Mohammed and Allah, Hindus in their multiple gods, the Jews have faith in God but deny the Messiah that was sent to save them. So forgive me for saying that faith is subjective and will NOT save unless it is channelled in Christ who, only can save.

  2. #122
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The theme of Romans 2 is focused mainly on the Jews. Those without the law (Gentile) were mentioned only briefly in verses 14-15. The rest of the chapter discussed the fate of the Jews and highlighted the character of a true Jew (v28). So I don't know what you're disagreeing with or why you claimed Romans 2 is about those without knowledge of the law?
    Because it has BOTH those who have the Law and those who don't.

    Well, I neither argued that ethnic distinction is removed before Christian returns nor that immortality is given. If anything, I concurred on both counts.

    I agree that people will still live in faith until Jesus returns, but the question is - who or what do they have faith in? Muslims have faith in Mohammed and Allah, Hindus in their multiple gods, the Jews have faith in God but deny the Messiah that was sent to save them. So forgive me for saying that faith is subjective and will NOT save unless it is channelled in Christ who, only can save.
    My point was that the Jew was saved if he lived by faith WITHOUT knowledge of Jesus. This was true BEFORE Jesus came, and remains true AFTER He came. Just as everyone is judged according to what they know as Romans 2 states.
    Perhaps it may be worth your while reading CS Lewis' Last Battle and consider the point he is making.

  3. #123
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You confuse a future reality with the present situation. Key words are "in Christ".
    You confuse a past reality with the situation since Christ came and changed the chosen people from the Jews to all who would accept Him.

    The reason you have to do this, to think the Lord is going to forgive the Jews for their continued rejection of Him, is the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christian Church. This theory must have the Jews on earth, while the Church sits in heaven. Doing what?
    No; it is serious error to be fooled by the rapture fable. You must ignore the scriptures I posted in #118 and all the prophesies about the Judgement of Judah, of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, Luke 19:27

  4. #124
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My point was that the Jew was saved if he lived by faith WITHOUT knowledge of Jesus. This was true BEFORE Jesus came, and remains true AFTER He came. Just as everyone is judged according to what they know as Romans 2 states.
    Romans 2 refers to ignorant peoples.
    The Jews know very well about Jesus; your case fails.

  5. #125
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Romans 2 refers to ignorant peoples.
    The Jews know very well about Jesus; your case fails.
    Actually your idea that the Jews know Jesus very well shows your ignorance.
    Most of the world has heard something about Jesus, but do they truly know about Jesus?
    Most know lies, and half truths.

    Most people in Europe have heard about Jesus, but it may only be through Christmas, and they are clueless about who He was, that He died for them or any of His teaching - except perhaps "Love your neighbour". IOW they haven't heard the gospel.

  6. #126
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You confuse a past reality with the situation since Christ came and changed the chosen people from the Jews to all who would accept Him.

    The reason you have to do this, to think the Lord is going to forgive the Jews for their continued rejection of Him, is the belief of a 'rapture to heaven' of the Christian Church. This theory must have the Jews on earth, while the Church sits in heaven. Doing what?
    No; it is serious error to be fooled by the rapture fable. You must ignore the scriptures I posted in #118 and all the prophesies about the Judgement of Judah, of their virtual demise. Isaiah 22:14, Jeremiah 10:18, Zephaniah 1:14-18, Amos 2:4-5, Luke 19:27
    You are indeed confused and arguing a strawman.
    The Jews remain a chosen people, but we too are called and chosen.
    Making us chosen does NOT stop them being chosen.

    I don't preach a rapture to heaven, but one of meeting Him in the sky and returning to earth.
    I see that Zechariah clearly shows (as does Jesus' own teaching in the Olivet) that 50% of the Jews will be taken.
    However BEFORE that day Jesus sends the Two Witnesses, to bring His people back to Himself.

    I don't ignore a single scripture. However neither do I take what is said for someone else as if it were for myself.
    It is you who has some serious problems, as you have said we are Israel, then we will face the time of Jacob's trouble, for that is what will come upon Israel.

  7. #127
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually your idea that the Jews know Jesus very well shows your ignorance.
    Most of the world has heard something about Jesus, but do they truly know about Jesus?
    Most know lies, and half truths.

    Most people in Europe have heard about Jesus, but it may only be through Christmas, and they are clueless about who He was, that He died for them or any of His teaching - except perhaps "Love your neighbour". IOW they haven't heard the gospel.
    We are just discussing the Jews. They do know about Jesus and they reject Him. They refuse to read any of the New Testament and if Jesus is mentioned to them, they clap their hands over their ears and make hate filled remarks.
    They will be Judged and punished for this. Ezekiel 21:1-16....the third swing of great Sword of slaughter against Judah. 1st Babylon, 2nd Rome, 3rd to come from the Lord Himself.

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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You are indeed confused and arguing a strawman.
    The Jews remain a chosen people, but we too are called and chosen.
    Making us chosen does NOT stop them being chosen.

    I don't preach a rapture to heaven, but one of meeting Him in the sky and returning to earth.
    I see that Zechariah clearly shows (as does Jesus' own teaching in the Olivet) that 50% of the Jews will be taken.
    However BEFORE that day Jesus sends the Two Witnesses, to bring His people back to Himself.

    I don't ignore a single scripture. However neither do I take what is said for someone else as if it were for myself.
    It is you who has some serious problems, as you have said we are Israel, then we will face the time of Jacob's trouble, for that is what will come upon Israel.
    The ONLY chosen people are every faithful Christian. From every tribe, race, nation and language. 1 Peter 9-10, Revelation 7:9

    Yes, we will face the time of Jacob's trouble, the Sixth Seal event. It will be our test and trial, 1 Peter 4:12
    It isn't a 'serious problem', as you like to think, but our chance to prove our commitment to God, our faith in Jesus as our Saviour. That is why I say to everyone we must know what will happen and be prepared physically and Spiritually for it.

  9. #129
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Because it has BOTH those who have the Law and those who don't.

    My point was that the Jew was saved if he lived by faith WITHOUT knowledge of Jesus. This was true BEFORE Jesus came, and remains true AFTER He came. Just as everyone is judged according to what they know as Romans 2 states.
    Perhaps it may be worth your while reading CS Lewis' Last Battle and consider the point he is making.
    On reflection, I admit you're right according to Heb 11:6.

  10. #130
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't preach a rapture to heaven, but one of meeting Him in the sky and returning to earth.
    Allow me to interject here because I have always countered this false view of the rapture whenever I see it. Now, you stated that the risen saints will only meet Jesus in the air and return to earth with him, but I don't think this agrees with scripture.

    Rev 19: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

    The "much people in heaven" are the risen saints who returned to heaven with Jesus for the marriage of the Lamb

    4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

    5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

    6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

    7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.

    8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

    9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    The problem with your position that the risen saints only made it up in the air before returning with Jesus to earth is that it doesn't make provision for the adorning of white linen which happens in heaven. It is also at this point that the church hitherto referred to as "bride" turns to wife.

    Further, notice that in the second vision, John finally sees Jesus returning to earth (v11) and who are among his retinue? The risen saints already clothed in white v14. This is when Jesus eventually returns to earth that all eyes will see him. The claim that when he met the risen church in the air is his actual return is scripturally unsound.

  11. #131
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Allow me to interject here because I have always countered this false view of the rapture whenever I see it. Now, you stated that the risen saints will only meet Jesus in the air and return to earth with him, but I don't think this agrees with scripture.
    Rev 19: And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:
    The "much people in heaven" are the risen saints who returned to heaven with Jesus for the marriage of the Lamb
    Rev 19:1* After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

    I presume you are referring to this?
    Two things for you to consider:
    1) This multitude is not necessarily people - the word means throng, multitude or host.
    It is translators bias to assume it is people. It could be referring to angels alone.

    2) The heaven here is the same word for the sky as well as the 3rd heaven.
    Therefore it could be speaking of when people are raptured to the sky.

    Personally I see this as the angelic host. Why?
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

    Now are the raptured saints the armies of heaven? I don't think we are.

    The problem with your position that the risen saints only made it up in the air before returning with Jesus to earth is that it doesn't make provision for the adorning of white linen which happens in heaven. It is also at this point that the church hitherto referred to as "bride" turns to wife.
    Actually it does make provision for that.
    We are told TWO things.
    1) That the DEAD rise first
    2) That the LIVING meet them AND Jesus in the sky.

    Then we are also told this is where we are clothed in immortality. So there is no problem.
    1Co 15:51* Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,*
    1Co 15:52* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.*

    This gives the timing.
    1Th 4:16* For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.*
    1Th 4:17* Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    This confirms my understanding. The chronology given is:
    1) Jesus descends with the sound of the trumpet
    2) The dead rise
    3) those alive are caught up.

    This then should fit into Revelation here:
    Rev 19:13* He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.*
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

    Here Jesus leaves heaven, with the angelic host. We then rise and meet Him.

    Further, notice that in the second vision, John finally sees Jesus returning to earth (v11) and who are among his retinue? The risen saints already clothed in white v14. This is when Jesus eventually returns to earth that all eyes will see him. The claim that when he met the risen church in the air is his actual return is scripturally unsound.
    Verse 14 does NOT speak of the saints, but of angels. I choose to stick with the clear chronology given in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, and then fit Rev 19 into that.

  12. #132
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Rev 19:1* After this I heard what seemed to be the loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, crying out, “Hallelujah! Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,

    I presume you are referring to this?
    Two things for you to consider:
    1) This multitude is not necessarily people - the word means throng, multitude or host.
    It is translators bias to assume it is people. It could be referring to angels alone.

    2) The heaven here is the same word for the sky as well as the 3rd heaven.
    Therefore it could be speaking of when people are raptured to the sky.

    Personally I see this as the angelic host. Why?
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

    Now are the raptured saints the armies of heaven? I don't think we are.
    KJV says "And after this I heard a great voice of much people in heaven" With this translation there's no ambiguity or room to doubt that the multitude are people. Your translation says "what seemed like a loud voice of a great multitude".

    1. Can you cite an example where angles are referred to as *multitude*?
    2. On the balance of probability, isn't it more likely that the multitude is more the risen saints than angels?
    3. v5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.
    4. The multitude is referred to as "servants"; even though angles are also servants of God, I'm not sure they have ever been called servants in scripture? Notice that saints are called servants in v2?
    5. Secondly, the voice came out of the throne of God in heaven. This debunks the supposition that the event happened in the sky (1st heaven).
    6. Why is it inconceivable that the saints will also make up Jesus Christ' army? Scripture says we shall be like the angles when we assume immortality - so why do you continue to differentiate between us and the angels at this time? It doesn't make sense to me.
    7. The Bible expressly said that ALL eyes will see him when he returns, yet we all know that the wicked in the earth will not see the meeting in the air.

    Actually it does make provision for that.
    We are told TWO things.
    1) That the DEAD rise first
    2) That the LIVING meet them AND Jesus in the sky.

    Then we are also told this is where we are clothed in immortality. So there is no problem.
    1Co 15:51* Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,*
    1Co 15:52* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.*

    This gives the timing.
    1Th 4:16* For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.*
    1Th 4:17* Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.

    This confirms my understanding. The chronology given is:
    1) Jesus descends with the sound of the trumpet
    2) The dead rise
    3) those alive are caught up.

    This then should fit into Revelation here:
    Rev 19:13* He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God.*
    Rev 19:14* And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses.

    Here Jesus leaves heaven, with the angelic host. We then rise and meet Him.


    Verse 14 does NOT speak of the saints, but of angels. I choose to stick with the clear chronology given in 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15, and then fit Rev 19 into that.
    I don't see the relevance of pointing out that the dead rise first, followed by the living. That's not in doubt. The Apostle John saw the events in heaven where the throne of God is, not the sky. The saints are the same as the angles at this time (Matt 22:30) and therefore, part of Christ' army on his return. The chronology of 1 Thess 4 and 1 Cor 15 tells me that (a) the dead rise first (b) followed by the rapture of the living (c) in all likelihood the time difference between them could be nanoseconds.

    The Lords meets both in the sky and takes them to heaven where the marriage of the Lamb takes place before returning to earth. This time accompanied by angels.

  13. #133
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    Re: Covenant and Christians

    Plain reading of Reveation 19:1-8 proves that the multitude heard from heaven are the martyrs, whose souls are kept under the Altar. Revelation 6:9-11
    They are given the means to cry out to God from there and in Rev 19, they praise Him for at last taking vengeance in their murderers.

    The issue of the Marriage of the Bride, who, when and where, is simply not told to us; so speculation and theories about it are unfruitful.

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