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Thread: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

  1. #46
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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    To me it is a question of who do you trust? If you trust God with your salvation, you will endure for He made a promise and it is because of that promise that I can endure. If I had not that assurance I could easily have given up when my faith is being tested. Because He is faithful I can endure. So the question remains do I trust myself to endure or God. I trust God.

    All these warnings to me is a warning that if you trust yourself, you will fail and there are no second chances. If I trust God, I know I cannot fail, for God cannot fail. As the Hebrew writer says we must keep our eye on Christ, the beginning and finisher of our faith. Have you entered God's rest and endure or are you still working for your rest with the good possibility of failing? So in the end it is a matter of faith.
    I couldn't agree with you more God's part of the bargain is immutable, we are the ones susceptible to change. The realisation of this flaw in our character precipitated the constant exhortation for the saved to persevere to the end.

    The fact we must endure to the END should not be lost on anyone because the inference is that the one who doesn't, loses his salvation. Their previous faith and belief will not save them. The "end" here denotes the end of life in the flesh. Therefore, everybody's "end" is not the same. Paul said concerning everyone's end or rest:

    Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest [physical death], he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I couldn't agree with you more God's part of the bargain is immutable, we are the ones susceptible to change. The realisation of this flaw in our character precipitated the constant exhortation for the saved to persevere to the end.

    The fact we must endure to the END should not be lost on anyone because the inference is that the one who doesn't, loses his salvation. Their previous faith and belief will not save them. The "end" here denotes the end of life in the flesh. Therefore, everybody's "end" is not the same. Paul said concerning everyone's end or rest:

    Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10 For he that is entered into his rest [physical death], he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
    I do not see it as physical death, but believing the Gospel. That is when we entered the rest and ceased with our works to obtain salvation. Then we are in Christ.

    I could see that believers (nominal) could lose their faith and this should be a great warning to them. What I do not see is the possibility of the elect losing their faith. They were elected before the creation of the earth and it is according to the counsel of God that they will be saved.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I believe the book of Hebrews was written to warn Jewish believers in Christ against regressing back to Judaism in order to avoid persecution. I believe the author of Hebrews stressed the importance of the superiority of Jesus being our high priest now and how we are under a new and better covenant as a reminder and or encouragement to stay the course for the Lord Jesus despite any persecution that they might face for Christ.

    Hebrews 13:13 NLT says,
    "So let us go out to him, outside the camp, and bear the disgrace he bore."

    "32 Think back on those early days when you first learned about Christ. Remember how you remained faithful even though it meant terrible suffering.
    33 Sometimes you were exposed to public ridicule and were beaten, and sometimes you helped others who were suffering the same things.
    34 You suffered along with those who were thrown into jail, and when all you owned was taken from you, you accepted it with joy. You knew there were better things waiting for you that will last forever.
    35 So do not throw away this confident trust in the Lord. Remember the great reward it brings you!"
    (Hebrews 10:32-35 NLT).

    As for solid meat:
    Well, being able to eat solid meat is about discerning between good and evil.

    "But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14).
    The beauty and strength of scripture is its enduring character. Indeed, Paul in Hebrews set out to encourage his fellow Jewish believers in Christ and enumerated the reasons they should hang on to the end. But his exegesis is not limited to Jewish believers because it transcends ALL believers in every tribe and creed.

    We in the Christian west, take a lot for granted. I read a moving story about the latest Boko Haram's kidnapping of teenage girls in the town of Depeche, in Nigeria. But not long afterwards, all the Muslim girls were released (about 100) save the few (about 15) that were Christians. The Muslims girls recounted how the Christian girls refused at the point of death to renounce Christ and were consequently, not released with them.

    This scenario is the grave danger faced by Christian converts in hostile anti-Christian societies around the world like India, the Middle East, China, etc. We know that some Christians in Iraq and Syria who couldn't endure under ISIS converted to Islam.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    The falling away of Solomon.
    Solomon DID fall away. My question is whether there is a precedent in the Bible where people were warned about something that was impossible or unlikely to happen?

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    But this doesn't address the issue. If we use Hebrews 6 as justification for the doctrine of falling away, how then can we ignore that same passage when it says it is impossible to come back from falling away?
    You are right, I can't ignore what the passage says since am searching for an objective interpretation of the texts. We are not using Hebrew 6 to justify the doctrine of falling away, it is implicitly implied. In the English Language, the word IF is a conjunction, a supposition, e.g in the event that the aforesaid happen, etc. So contextually, it is unlikely that the saved will fall away, nevertheless, the possibility remains and cannot be ruled out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Maybe I wasn't clear in my wording. If God disciplines someone, the reason for the discipline is the person's behavior. When someone is in willful apostasy, there's nothing left to chastise once God divorces them. The chastisement only comes upon them as children. Once they are no longer children, i.e. God divorces them, lets them go, etc. then they are no longer being chastised. They are free to do as their heart desires.

    What father gets blamed for discipling his son? I don't understand the "placing the blame" on God comment. Could you expound on that for me please?
    I can't refute this because the one being chastised by God is still saved.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    You don't think he came back? I think he did and wrote Ecclesiastes.

    King Saul is the one I wonder about. Maybe Esau but not sure he was ever saved.
    The likes of Esau, Solomon etc. are reminders to us of the consequences of rejecting God after experiencing his power and providence.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Your view seems to be in conflict with itself. You willfully dissociated the believers in verses 4-5 from the statement in v6 and I wonder why? Perhaps, you failed to notice that the writer was also referring to the same group in v4-5 in v6 in an abstract sense? Verse 6 is a hypothetical statement "if they shall fall away", the *if* strongly suggests that it is potentially possible for them to fall away.
    On this we agree one can indeed "stop believing" but this is where the line is drawn in the sand. Not whether or not a Christian is living a good life or a bad life. But if they believe or not.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    There is nothing conclusive to suggest that the saved CANNOT fall away, and any rash assumption to the contrary is wrong and dangerous. Furthermore, I don't think you fully grasped what the texts say. The question is not strictly about belief or unbelief, rather it's about when the believed stopped believing? When they fall off the right path and trod down the trail of apostasy.

    Indeed all believers are saved, but there is a proviso - they MUST remain in faith to the END. If they deviate and fall away, they lose their salvation. You might argue that it is impossible for the saved to fall away, and I will disagree with you on that.
    Once more i just want to course this debate in the Unbelief vs Believers instead of Sinners verse those living a Godly life. If you were to die today and you do not believe the Gospel, whether or not you believed it in the past is where i think your question is driving at, and i say the line is drawn in the sand between belief and unbelief.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I do not see it as physical death, but believing the Gospel. That is when we entered the rest and ceased with our works to obtain salvation. Then we are in Christ.

    I could see that believers (nominal) could lose their faith and this should be a great warning to them. What I do not see is the possibility of the elect losing their faith. They were elected before the creation of the earth and it is according to the counsel of God that they will be saved.
    Amen! Matthew 24:24 - For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.

    As Greek scholar AT Robertson points out - "These charlatans will be so skilful that they will, if possible (ei dunaton), lead astray the very elect. The implication is that it is not possible."
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    On this we agree one can indeed "stop believing" but this is where the line is drawn in the sand. Not whether or not a Christian is living a good life or a bad life. But if they believe or not.

    Once more i just want to course this debate in the Unbelief vs Believers instead of Sinners verse those living a Godly life. If you were to die today and you do not believe the Gospel, whether or not you believed it in the past is where i think your question is driving at, and i say the line is drawn in the sand between belief and unbelief.
    Well, I don't see how your conclusion remotely relates to the argument. You concurred above that v6 refers to those in verses 4-5 who are believers and it is the same people in v6 that the writer said *if* they should fall away. Yet you claim the text is just about "belief and unbelief" whatever that means?

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I could see that believers (nominal) could lose their faith and this should be a great warning to them. What I do not see is the possibility of the elect losing their faith. They were elected before the creation of the earth and it is according to the counsel of God that they will be saved.
    I don't think your view in red is a true reflection of Heb 6:4-6. It is important we understand the use of IF in v6. The grammar does not indicate an impossibility of the saved falling away, rather it suggests a possibility.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
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    I don't think your view in red is a true reflection of Heb 6:4-6. It is important we understand the use of IF in v6. The grammar does not indicate an impossibility of the saved falling away, rather it suggests a possibility.
    I would agree if that was the only verses , but if I look at v9 I cannot agree. Also if I would took into consideration of other passages in Scripture.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I would agree if that was the only verses , but if I look at v9 I cannot agree. Also if I would took into consideration of other passages in Scripture.
    To be objective, you should also take v8 into consideration. The narrative is balanced between the fate of those that might fall (embodied in v8) and those who would not. Otherwise, v8 might have been plucked out of outer space and has no place in the narrative.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    To be objective, you should also take v8 into consideration. The narrative is balanced between the fate of those that might fall (embodied in v8) and those who would not. Otherwise, v8 might have been plucked out of outer space and has no place in the narrative.
    Those in v8 are those without faith, those who had no fruit only thorns. They were of a different plant, otherwise they would have fruit instead of thorns. As Luk 8:18 says to him that had more will be given, but to who who had nothing will be taken away even that he thought he had.

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    Re: Revisiting Hebrew 6:4-6

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Those in v8 are those without faith, those who had no fruit only thorns. They were of a different plant, otherwise they would have fruit instead of thorns. As Luk 8:18 says to him that had more will be given, but to who who had nothing will be taken away even that he thought he had.
    You have made the same common error that leads many to a false understanding of Heb 6. The chapter is not about the unbeliever without "faith" and those that believe. From verse one, the narrative focused on the saved believer. But after describing the qualities and the divine gifts received by the saved, the writer then made a hypothetical statement in v6 that despite this providence, "if" or should they fall away...

    It is imperative to understand that the focus of this chapter is mainly about the saved and the need to exhort them to persevere to the end. In this regard, v7 is a reconfirmation that the saved (v4-6) receive grace from God. In contrast, *if* they should fall away, their fate is v8. So unless you're saying that those without faith are those that previously believed, i.e. if they fall, otherwise, your claim that the unbeliever (devoid of faith) were suddenly interjected into the narrative makes zero sense.

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