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Thread: Is Pacifism biblical?

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    Is Pacifism biblical?

    My own view is that Pacifism can have its place, but only in the right context. The Early Church was largely pacifistic, as I understand it, because the Roman government was pagan, adventuristic, and sinful.

    Over time, the Empire became more Christian, and the idea of national defense and just wars took root. Christian civilization is replete with declared "just wars," although we know anything can be rationalized. Still, the idea of Christians participating in a national defense, and in serving just interests within the political state, is acceptable.

    Paul argued that we should not only pray for our government, but we should also be good citizens. That requires that we discriminate, and consider whether pacifism should be our policy or not, depending on the nation or conditions we find ourselves in.

    The kind of Pacifism we see among Quakers, for example, is not, in my view, biblical. Escapism is not what we as Christians are told to do with the gospel. We are an outreach, and we are to confront our national realities. We are to be social warriors, if that is allowed. We are to make the "good confession."

    To retreat to our little island paradise is unbiblical, in my view. The Bible is replete with examples of just wars fought, for example, by men of God, eg King David. Opinions?

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    I think the bible shows us that violence can be good, even holy, when used for the right purposes. During the messianic era, there will be world peace when all the world is united under God. But until that time, don't beat your swords into plowshares, or you'll end up plowing for the guy who kept his sword.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My own view is that Pacifism can have its place, but only in the right context. The Early Church was largely pacifistic, as I understand it, because the Roman government was pagan, adventuristic, and sinful.
    Not only that, they had overwhelming force. We all know what happened in 70AD. Pacifism in that circumstance was a survival tactic, just as it was in Babylon up to the point that God allowed (through the King) the Jews to pick up the sword and defend themselves against the King's Haman-manipulated decree. This was a God thing, so I think your point has valid Biblical ground to stand on.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Over time, the Empire became more Christian, and the idea of national defense and just wars took root. Christian civilization is replete with declared "just wars," although we know anything can be rationalized. Still, the idea of Christians participating in a national defense, and in serving just interests within the political state, is acceptable.
    Which is supported in Romans and 1 Peter.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Paul argued that we should not only pray for our government, but we should also be good citizens. That requires that we discriminate, and consider whether pacifism should be our policy or not, depending on the nation or conditions we find ourselves in.
    I agree, especially those who dwell in a constitutional republic that places the burden of discernment on its citizens.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The kind of Pacifism we see among Quakers, for example, is not, in my view, biblical. Escapism is not what we as Christians are told to do with the gospel. We are an outreach, and we are to confront our national realities. We are to be social warriors, if that is allowed. We are to make the "good confession."
    I respect anyone's convictions, but the line is crossed when they use Scripture to accuse those who disagree with their personal convictions of opposing God.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    To retreat to our little island paradise is unbiblical, in my view. The Bible is replete with examples of just wars fought, for example, by men of God, eg King David. Opinions?
    I agree. And I bring up the Jews in Babylon again:

    The king's edict granted the Jews in every city the right to assemble and protect themselves; to destroy, kill and annihilate the armed men of any nationality or province who might attack them and their women and children, and to plunder the property of their enemies.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My own view is that Pacifism can have its place, but only in the right context. The Early Church was largely pacifistic, as I understand it, because the Roman government was pagan, adventuristic, and sinful.

    Over time, the Empire became more Christian, and the idea of national defense and just wars took root. Christian civilization is replete with declared "just wars," although we know anything can be rationalized. Still, the idea of Christians participating in a national defense, and in serving just interests within the political state, is acceptable.

    Paul argued that we should not only pray for our government, but we should also be good citizens. That requires that we discriminate, and consider whether pacifism should be our policy or not, depending on the nation or conditions we find ourselves in.

    The kind of Pacifism we see among Quakers, for example, is not, in my view, biblical. Escapism is not what we as Christians are told to do with the gospel. We are an outreach, and we are to confront our national realities. We are to be social warriors, if that is allowed. We are to make the "good confession."

    To retreat to our little island paradise is unbiblical, in my view. The Bible is replete with examples of just wars fought, for example, by men of God, eg King David. Opinions?
    Based on the character of God throughout the OT and the NT, the message Christ spoke... being meek, is in line with those teachings when one chooses to "die" for Christ. Not spiritually, but physically. Because when one HAS died spiritually, truly died spiritually, than laying down one's life "physically" for Christ or for brethren when persecuted, is fruit OF their having truly died spiritually for Christ.

    But to take Christ's lessons and when one is NOT laying their life down for Christ, or for brethren, no finger is lifted to end a crime, mugging, killing, etc. All they are doing is ALLOWING satan to steal their life with a wile of his in this world. This is able to happen because of misunderstanding of the character of God and twisting Jesus' message into what is a BONDAGE, with the name... pacifism.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Based on the character of God throughout the OT and the NT, the message Christ spoke... being meek, is in line with those teachings when one chooses to "die" for Christ. Not spiritually, but physically. Because when one HAS died spiritually, truly died spiritually, than laying down one's life "physically" for Christ or for brethren when persecuted, is fruit OF their having truly died spiritually for Christ.

    But to take Christ's lessons and when one is NOT laying their life down for Christ, or for brethren, no finger is lifted to end a crime, mugging, killing, etc. All they are doing is ALLOWING satan to steal their life with a wile of his in this world. This is able to happen because of misunderstanding of the character of God and twisting Jesus' message into what is a BONDAGE, with the name... pacifism.
    And it all does come down to what we are willing to die for. Christ? Yes. A murderer? A mass murderer? Nothing in the Bible suggests we lay down our life to a murderer, a child molester or a rapist.

    And still, not one verse (or even history) suggests "most soldiers" are "unsaved."

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Your missing the point here.
    The majority of the military and police are not saved individuals.
    Even those who may be saved, they are in direct violation of Christ's teaching on Pacifism.
    It was somewhat offensive to read that, even though I didn't find it worthy to respond to it.. I don't know about you Ken, but most of my comrades in arms were devout Christians, and remain Christians to this day.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    My own view is that Pacifism can have its place, but only in the right context. The Early Church was largely pacifistic, as I understand it, because the Roman government was pagan, adventuristic, and sinful.

    Over time, the Empire became more Christian, and the idea of national defense and just wars took root. Christian civilization is replete with declared "just wars," although we know anything can be rationalized. Still, the idea of Christians participating in a national defense, and in serving just interests within the political state, is acceptable.

    Paul argued that we should not only pray for our government, but we should also be good citizens. That requires that we discriminate, and consider whether pacifism should be our policy or not, depending on the nation or conditions we find ourselves in.

    The kind of Pacifism we see among Quakers, for example, is not, in my view, biblical. Escapism is not what we as Christians are told to do with the gospel. We are an outreach, and we are to confront our national realities. We are to be social warriors, if that is allowed. We are to make the "good confession."

    To retreat to our little island paradise is unbiblical, in my view. The Bible is replete with examples of just wars fought, for example, by men of God, eg King David. Opinions?
    This is a very important topic, I wonder why it hasn't been discussed before? Or, perhaps I missed the bus?

    The question we must consider is whether the OT approach should also be integrated into the NT mindset or nay? If yes, then there should be no argument because the OT is replete with examples of men with one arm on the sword and with the other, doing the work of God.

    But the NT Gospel seem to preach a different doctrine. Your first statement "pacifism can have its place, but only in the right context" sort of nailed it for me. For if we are to rely on NT injunctions, then it's not black and white.

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    And still, not one verse (or even history) suggests "most soldiers" are "unsaved."
    You'll find that soldiers in combat are totally different. However, for those who disregard the rules of engagement and take pleasure in the unnecessary brutality of civilians, that's certainly a crime.

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Pacifism as Taught in the New Testament is Moral and Good:

    Christians are to walk by faith and not by sight. For without faith, it is impossible to please God. Trusting in the verses or passages in the Bible on pacifism takes faith. You have to first believe these words in the Bible and you have to take it by faith that God has an ultimate good plan that we cannot always see (No matter what happens to us). The life story of Joseph is a good example of this. What Joseph's brothers intended for evil against Joseph, God intended to use their evil for the purpose of good. It is the same with Jesus. What appeared to be the death of the disciple's master (which really had upset Peter at first), was the ultimate plan of redemption for all mankind. Something that appeared to be horrible (The death of Jesus), was just the start of something amazing and good. So we cannot always see what God's plan is even when we are to walk in the valley of the shadow of death. For when Job had lost his sons, certain possessions, and his health, he could have denied God and turn away from Him. But Job did not do that. He still continued to believe in the Lord and worship Him (even if he did briefly get angry at God). The idea of pacifism is hard for many of us. Some of you may have been to war. Some of you may be a police officer and you rely on your gun. Some of you may have even saved lives countless times over with the use of violent force. But God's ways are higher than our ways. He calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us. For there are cases where Christians who follow the New Testament's teaching on pacifism who have prayed and or praised God in a potentially violent situation and they were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. Christians are also called to be persecuted or to suffer as Christ had suffered. How can one truly do this if they are on the offensive and or attacking others? We are told to follow the life of Jesus. Yet, nowhere do we see Jesus ever fighting back. Jesus says take up your cross and come follow me. Jesus died on the cross. What would have seemed like the end, was actually something far more. When believers die or suffer for the cause of Christ and it leads to just one soul to the LORD because they see the love, peace, and dedication they have for God (who lives in them), then it is all worth it according to God's ultimate plan for good (Which is to lead as many men as possible to Him). But what about justice in a given situation? Should we stand by as we watch our family or friends or others get hurt? No. We can trust in God and pray to Him and act in a non-violent way so as to protect them. But wouldn't it seem simpler to just end evil men by shooting them? Then how can you witness Christ or the gospel to them if they are dead? Also, is not God in control of all things? Can anything truly bad happen to you without God's say so? But again, you might ask: What about justice in a given situation? If God told you to trust in Him and His plan of not acting violent, and something bad happens, do you think that evil or evil men will not be judged in the end? Can you also see God's entire good plan working in your life in trusting Him like with the story of Joseph and his brothers? Are you God to be able to see His greater plan for good?

    New Testament Scripture That Supports Pacifism:

    John 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

    Matthew 26:52-53
    52 Then Jesus told him, "Put your sword back in its place because all who take up a sword will perish by a sword.
    53 Or do you think that I cannot call on My Father, and He will provide Me at once with more than 12 legions of angels?

    Matthew 5:44-45
    44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
    45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust.

    Luke 6:27-29
    27 But I say to you that listen, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,
    28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you.
    29 If anyone strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also;

    Luke 6:35 But love your enemies, do good, and lend, expecting nothing in return. Your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind to the ungrateful and the wicked.

    Matthew 5:39 But I say to you, Do not make use of force against an evil man; but to him who gives you a blow on the right side of your face let the left be turned. -Bible in Basic English

    Luke 12:22 And he said to his disciples, "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you shall eat, nor about your body, what you shall put on.

    Matthew 7:12 In everything do to others as you would have them do to you; for this is the law and the prophets.

    1 Peter 3:8-9
    8 Finally, all of you, have unity of spirit, sympathy, love of the brethren, a tender heart and a humble mind.
    9 Do not return evil for evil or reviling for reviling; but on the contrary bless, for to this you have been called, that you may obtain a blessing.

    Romans 12:17-21
    17 Never repay anyone evil for evil. Take thought for what is right and gracious and proper in the sight of everyone. - AMP
    18 and do your best to live at peace with everyone. - CEV
    19 Christian brothers, never pay back someone for the bad he has done to you. Let the anger of God take care of the other person. - NLV for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
    20 Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.
    21 Be not overcome of evil, but overcome evil with good. - KJV

    1 Thessalonians 5:15 See that none of you repays evil for evil, but always seek to do good to one another and to all.

    1 Peter 2:21-23
    21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.
    22 He committed no sin; no guile was found on his lips.
    23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

    Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

    2 Corinthians 10:4 We do not use those things to fight with that the world uses. We use the things God gives to fight with and they have power. Those things God gives to fight with destroy the strong-places of the devil.

    Luke 3:14 Do violence to no man,

    John 8:7 But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.

    Matthew 10:28-31
    28 And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell.
    29 Are not two sparrows sold for a penny? And not one of them will fall to the ground without your Fatherís will.
    30 But even the hairs of your head are all numbered.
    31 Fear not, therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

    Luke 2:14 Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men.

    John 14:27 Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

    Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called sons of God.

    James 3:18 The fruit of righteousness is sown in peace for them that make peace.

    Romans 10:15. How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace.

    Ephesians 6:14 Stand therefore . . . having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace.

    Ephesians 4:1-3
    1 I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,
    2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;
    3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

    Romans 16:20 The God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.

    2 Corinthians 13:11 Finally, brethren ... be perfected; be comforted; be of the same mind; live in peace: and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

    Philippians 4:7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus

    Galatians 1:13 - For ye have heard of my conversation in time past in the Jews' religion, how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it.

    2 Timothy 3:12 - Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution

    1 Peter 4:12-16
    12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
    13 But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.
    14 If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.
    15 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters.
    16 Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

    1 Peter 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind...

    Matthew 5:10 - Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

    1 Corinthians 13:3 - and though I give my body to be burned, and have not love, it profits me nothing.

    Philippians 1:21 - For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

    Revelation 13:10 - He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

    Popular Common Objections:

    Luke 22:36 is a popular objection because Jesus tells his disciples to buy a sword.

    Here is a great article explaining this one in great detail.

    http://www.clearbibleanswers.org/boo...uke-22-36.html

    As for John the Baptist's silence on not telling the soldiers to quite the military in Luke 3:10-14 (Which is similar to Jesus's encounter with the Roman Centurion - Luke 7:1-10):

    Check out this article here:

    http://enemylove.com/did-john-the-ba...-the-military/

    As for Jesus not telling the Roman Centurion not to quite the military or to do no more violence in Luke 7:1-10:

    Well, you have to realize that salvation did not go out unto the Gentiles yet. They first preached the gospel to Israel first.

    As for Romans 13:4 that says,

    ...for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    This is talking about how unbelieving authorities or nations (like a government's leaders, armies, and police) who are God's ministers to execute wrath or judgment on those who do evil. This is not talking about believers because it is telling the reader to be subject unto this higher powers (Romans 13:1). It does not tell the reader that they are these higher powers. The reader that Paul is writing to are believers (not the higher powers who are in authority whereby we are to be subject unto). In fact, God used both Assyria and Babylon to punish His people. So we can see that these nations were God's ministers of justice (Which would be in line with what is said in Romans 13).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    And it all does come down to what we are willing to die for. Christ? Yes. A murderer? A mass murderer? Nothing in the Bible suggests we lay down our life to a murderer, a child molester or a rapist.

    And still, not one verse (or even history) suggests "most soldiers" are "unsaved."



    It was somewhat offensive to read that, even though I didn't find it worthy to respond to it.. I don't know about you Ken, but most of my comrades in arms were devout Christians, and remain Christians to this day.
    Any soldier or law enforcement (saved or unsaved) knows and will have to admit this fact... law enforcement personnel and military personnel who are Christians, they are some of the most stable, true warriors who are serving. It blows me away how any soldier I led in battle, those who were Christian, all the "real" warriors, always willing to be first in combat, positioned at the tip of a spear.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    'Is Pacifism biblical' is an odd way of putting it. The answer depends on the circumstance: is there a reason to use violence? Then not doing so may ultimately be evil; for example, by allowing a bad actor to hurt those around you, by failing to adequate intercede on their behalf. Is there no reason to use violence? Then don't, and doing so may ultimately be evil.

    The 'pacifism or not?' question is predicated on a dichotomy that is simply untenable, and ultimately false. It's easy to post Scripture in support of pacifism because there are many circumstances where that's the appropriate response. It's equally easy to post scripture supporting the use of violence because there are many circumstances where that's the appropriate response. Life is nuanced - go figure.

    But consider it practically: Jason0047, you find yourself in an empty room with another man and a young woman. The man begins harming the woman with the intention of raping, and then killing her. She cries for your help, and you respond by...? I expect your answer to be theatrics, unless you're willing to acknowledge that God 'calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us', and that in some cases pacifism is the inappropriate response.

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Christians are also called to be persecuted or to suffer as Christ had suffered. How can one truly do this if they are on the offensive and or attacking others?
    Hey Jason, let me focus on this part of what you said. Believe it or not, I agree with you. When Christ was persecuted FOR doing His Father's work, He didn't raise any resistance. THAT is the model of having died spiritually, to be able to allow oneself to die physically FOR the Lord's work!

    All disciples SHOULD reach a closeness in their relationship with Christ that they are Christ-like and they too will not resist persecution that is happening because OF CHRIST in us while doing the Lord's work. Thus why missionaries and such, many are killed (true persecution).

    But pacifism isn't about that at all.

    Pacifism means that when a criminal is trying to kill us because we have money... we will not resist that evil. This is the fruit of pacifism.

    There is a difference between dying for Christ (because we are doing His work, because we are a Christian - Christ in us), and being murdered because an evil doer is wanting something of ours. One is about not resisting persecution due to CHRIST in us WHILE doing the Lord's work (resulting in our death) and the other is about not resisting evil because we misunderstand that when a criminal is trying to kill us because we have money, we AREN'T being persecuted... we are being victims of satan's evil. This is ALLOWING satan to steal our life.

    It's a fine line. AS FINE as the line between the difference between killing and murdering.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Hey Jason, let me focus on this part of what you said. Believe it or not, I agree with you. When Christ was persecuted FOR doing His Father's work, He didn't raise any resistance. THAT is the model of having died spiritually, to be able to allow oneself to die physically FOR the Lord's work!

    All disciples SHOULD reach a closeness in their relationship with Christ that they are Christ-like and they too will not resist persecution that is happening because OF CHRIST in us while doing the Lord's work. Thus why missionaries and such, many are killed (true persecution).

    But pacifism isn't about that at all.

    Pacifism means that when a criminal is trying to kill us because we have money... we will not resist that evil. This is the fruit of pacifism.

    There is a difference between dying for Christ (because we are doing His work, because we are a Christian - Christ in us), and being murdered because an evil doer is wanting something of ours. One is about not resisting persecution due to CHRIST in us WHILE doing the Lord's work (resulting in our death) and the other is about not resisting evil because we misunderstand that when a criminal is trying to kill us because we have money, we AREN'T being persecuted... we are being victims of satan's evil. This is ALLOWING satan to steal our life.

    It's a fine line. AS FINE as the line between the difference between killing and murdering.
    You don't think that the evil men (who crucified Christ) had something to gain by His death? If Jesus teaches NT Pacifism (Which I believe is true according to the Scriptures), then obeying Christ even when a person wants to steal from you or who wants to kill you is a trust of faith in Him. Romans 8:28 would then go into effect. All things work together for good to those who love God. You are seeing things from a carnal or fleshy perspective based on your past experience or your current support of weapons of violence. You have something to lose and that is not an easy thing to do for Christ. You think you need to protect yourself or your family. While I am not against wanting to be protective of those I love, I am not above my Lord and what He commands of me. If the Lord says jump, I have to say to the Lord in return, "How high?" For me: I did not own any guns and I never used guns for violence. On rare occasions I had fired guns at a targeting range with my Dad while growing up. So it was easy to accept the Lord's teaching on NT Pacifism. I imagine it is not easy for you to make such a change in your life. Hence, why I believe you are resistant to the idea.

    Also, there is no such thing of being a victim of satan's evil if you are a Christian who is truly doing the Lord's work (and who is listening to His will and instructions). There are many cases where God's people (who believed in the Lord's teachings on Pacifism) were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. For if we live.... we live unto the Lord and if we die.... we die unto the Lord.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  13. #13
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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    You don't think that the evil men (who crucified Christ) had something to gain by His death? If Jesus teaches NT Pacifism (Which I believe is true according to the Scriptures), then obeying Christ even when a person wants to steal from you or who wants to kill you is a trust of faith in Him. Romans 8:28 would then go into effect. All things work together for good to those who love God. You are seeing things from a carnal or fleshy perspective based on your past experience or your current support of weapons of violence. You have something to lose and that is not an easy thing to do for Christ. You think you need to protect yourself or your family. While I am not against wanting to be protective of those I love, I am not above my Lord and what He commands of me. If the Lord says jump, I have to say to the Lord in return, "How high?" For me: I did not own any guns and I never used guns for violence. On rare occasions I had fired guns at a targeting range with my Dad while growing up.

    Also, there is no such thing of being a victim of satan's evil if you are a Christian who is truly doing the Lord's work (and who is listening to His will and instructions). There are many cases where God's people (who believed in the Lord's teachings on Pacifism) were not harmed. Granted, this is not always the case. For if we live.... we live unto the Lord and if we die.... we die unto the Lord.
    Jesus taught that one must first bind the strongman of the house before one could plunder that house. God gave authority the obligation to protect those under authority.

    Question: If you had a teenage child that had not yet come to know Jesus, would you kill to save his life?
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    'Is Pacifism biblical' is an odd way of putting it. The answer depends on the circumstance: is there a reason to use violence? Then not doing so may ultimately be evil; for example, by allowing a bad actor to hurt those around you, by failing to adequate intercede on their behalf. Is there no reason to use violence? Then don't, and doing so may ultimately be evil.

    The 'pacifism or not?' question is predicated on a dichotomy that is simply untenable, and ultimately false. It's easy to post Scripture in support of pacifism because there are many circumstances where that's the appropriate response. It's equally easy to post scripture supporting the use of violence because there are many circumstances where that's the appropriate response. Life is nuanced - go figure.

    But consider it practically: Jason0047, you find yourself in an empty room with another man and a young woman. The man begins harming the woman with the intention of raping, and then killing her. She cries for your help, and you respond by...? I expect your answer to be theatrics, unless you're willing to acknowledge that God 'calls us to do things by faith that does not always make sense to us', and that in some cases pacifism is the inappropriate response.
    Holding your attacker or moving your attacker off the victim is not like firing a gun at them. There is even non-violent martial arts if you are really concerned about the moral issue here. For me: If the Lord says to not resist evil: Well, it is having trust and faith in Him. But I will not set out to kill a person because Jesus says to resist not evil. God sometimes asks us things to do things that does not alway make sense. But when we look back and see how God moved in our life, it then becomes clear. I remember a Christian's testimony I heard once. He told me that before he accepted Christ, he used to be a part of Swat or something of that nature. He was going to fire and take a shot at a guy (Who he believed was criminal). However, something held him back. Later, he talked with this man he almost killed. In that talk, he was led to the Lord. So the man he was going to kill was the means by which God talked to him about Christ.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is Pacifism biblical?

    In reference Scripture talking about binding the strong man:
    This is speaking in spiritual terms and not physical terms.
    It is talking about binding the devil before one can spoil his goods (his sinful reign over either a person, city, school, or a set of laws that runs contrary to God's Word). Prayer and fasting is a huge way of binding the strong man (the devil).

    As for the question that asks: If you had a teenage child that had not yet come to know Jesus, would you kill to save his life? Jesus says this:

    "
    He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:37).

    Abraham was willing to sacrifice his son Isaac. Yes, he believed his son was going to be resurrected, but the fact of the matter is he still was being asked to sacrifice his son and he had to take it by faith that he was going to live again.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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