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Thread: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

  1. #736
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    Jason, this is a useless statement. Why? Because it is precisely what all of us are doing.

    As I said previously, as a person, you seem likeable. I’d go have a burger or pizza with you and discuss this face to face. We do not have an issue with you as a person. We are using the Word of God to judge your doctrine and, as much as possible, your actions.

    Your doctrine doesn’t match the Scripture in any of our hermeneutic. You claim to agree with the Trinity and sola Scriptura and some other things. Great! - assuming you define those correctly.

    But where we as a group disagree with you, I’d best describe as a poison or a cancer - arcenic. A little arsenic ruins the whole dish.

    And your practice....

    Everyone here is accountable to others. You aren’t. We, and all churches (according to you) are wrong. That’s cultish on your part.

    We’d love to have true fellowship with you. We don’t hate you. We don’t dislike you. We must guard against and point out the poisonous cancer you are proclaiming.
    God is three distinct persons and yet He is also one God. 1 John 5:7 is the one and only verse that describes the Trinity point blank.
    I also believe in Sola Scriptura and have written an extensive two part lengthy article using tons of Scripture as a response against Catholics.
    But I do not believe in what you believe because it does not even remotely fit the Bible, morality, and or the real world (i.e. you cannot make a parable out of what you believe). I know. I have asked others to try and make a parable out of a grievous sin and still be saved gospel before and they have failed big time. Furthermore, this is also not my first debate involving your kind of belief, either. I have been debating your kind of belief for about 5 years using Scripture on various other forums.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    However, in the Belief Alone Camp, they despise the idea of overcoming sin in this life.
    Assuming this judgement is directed at the people who are your opponents in this debate. It's not the first you condemn the collective here. And NOBODY here despises the idea of overcoming sin in this life, it's order given by the Highest Authority, God in the OT, Jesus in the NT. We all know it, we all are aware of Hebr 12:4 are we all do our stinking best not to (per Eph 4:30) grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

    And in this respect we are not any different than you.

    What we might differ on is our idea of the character of God. Ever heard God loves us unconditionally? Tell me, because of (or during) your backslidden period did you feel God loved you less? When people don't sin for a week, month, even a year, does that mean God loves you more? Or if you sin 10 times a day, does God say, Hey Jason, I am very disappointed in you, I know you can do better, so now I love you less? Do better tomorrow, I might love you more! That's crazy isn't? God's love for you is a constant, an unchangeable constant.

    Not sure if you have (already) children and are a father yourself, you quickly learn what unconditional love means and how deep that goes.
    Last edited by ProDeo; May 17th 2018 at 06:54 PM. Reason: error correction in the first sentence "our" -> "who"

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Translation : If you don't agree with me , I'm not listening to you.
    Pretty much his statement to the entire body of Christ.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    So you don't feel the Bible is the final Word of authority on spiritual matters?/
    Not exactly Jason. We don’t “feel” your faulty hermeneutics are the final word of authority on spiritual matters. Creating doctrine outside of the council of Godly saints complicates it even further.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I am judging the wrong beliefs. It is not wrong to judge what the Bible condemns. I have put forth Scripture even showing that it is not my judgment but it is God's Judgment by His very own Word. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with God and not me. I am just the messenger.
    No, what you have done is twist Scripture to fit your bad doctrine. We’ve challenged you over and over again with exegesis of the one-liners you’ve hung out there, with no response.

    You still haven’t responded to my Biblical exegesis of sin, but continue to mis-represent “grevious sin.”

    We can’t explore Scripture with you when you refuse to allow The context and content to come out of God’s word to teach you.

    Your ears are stopped, you refuse to Shema.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    You just written off the verses I provided that show certain grievous sins that lead to spiritual death.
    Not exactly. First of all you have an unBiblical understanding of “grevious sin.” Therefore I have “written off” your faulty doctrine as rubbage.

    As long as you continue to reject the basic milk Biblical concept of sin, we can’t get to the meat. You need to grow some teeth first.

    Sorry.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    First problem. Whether a person has the Spirit or not, God would be a respecter of persons if He allowed one set of group of believers to be saved because they had the Spirit and sinned vs. not saving those who did not have the Spirit and sinned.

    11 "For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:11-12).

    Second problem in what you believe is that by what you said so far: It has given me the impression that "Sin is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten." A person can commit grievious sin and be saved and they do not have to worry because God will chasten them every time. So a believer can sin, be chastened, sin again, be chastened, sin again and be chastened and sin again and be chastened in endless cycle their whole lives. But where is the change? Where is the fear of God? Also, when others here teach that David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder and they think they can either commit adultery and murder and be saved, their listeners could think it is okay to commit grievous sin and still be saved and they could very well ignore God's chastening. If they do that, the teacher who led them to think that way will be in part to blame. Why? Because the Bible does not teach that chastening is like this awesome safety net that makes you okay with God. Personally, I believe a believer who has the mindset that says that one can commit grievous sin with the thinking they are saved will not have any kind of chastening from God. How so? Because chastening is for that person who truly wants to walk uprightly in this life as Scripture says. However, in the Belief Alone Camp, they despise the idea of overcoming sin in this life. Many say it is heresy.
    You hear about fluffy kittens because you interpret what you read... none of us have said anything that you are saying we have said. In other words, you only misconstrue our words so you can keep up with what YOU want to say.

    Straight up question: How many times did David sin, and God remained with him to either guide him back into an intimate relation with Himself or outright chastened/punished David, to guide him back to an intimate relation with Himself... compared to, how many times David sinned and we find God abandoning him?

    Answer the question honestly and the underlined part... you can answer properly IF you admit to what God did?

    David sinned ALL HIS LIFETIME while in relationship with God. God NEVER abandoned him and David NEVER stopped abiding. THIS IS WHAT you fail to understand. Abiding isn't ALWAYS about being sinless or never sinning. You sinned today, you won't admit it, you may even be actually blind to the sin(s) you may have done today... has God abandoned you? Did He abandon you when you KNEW of the sin you were doing, that you KEPT doing for a time?

    Then with you facing how God STAYED with David (AND YOURSELF) when he had sinned... come on Jason, one time that David sinned, God stayed and even GAVE him a multiple choice of WHAT the punishment would be!!! Do you know of this scriptural example in the Bible?

    Does that sound like God is following this theology you have, where it teaches that He abandons a believer who does "A" sin, or in David's case, MANY sins??

    NO, it does not.

    If you can actually answer what I'm asking... then we can get into scripture where a believer rejected God's orders (sin of disobedience) and God never left this person.
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Jason, if you are immersed in the ocean, please explain how you could get less wet. Or more wet.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Right, and Spurgeon also said Calvinism is the gospel.
    Whatever, doesn't mean he hit the nail on the head.

    I find it odd that he who thinks so highly of what the Holy Spirit teaches him, thinks so little of what the Holy Spirit teaches others also.
    -- Spurgeon

    Watched this sermon a couple of days ago, it's from someone you debated with.

    https://player.vimeo.com/video/26933...e=0&portrait=0

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Why? I have not seen you engaging in Scripture I or others have given. You just dismiss them and go on to your own pet verses. It sure does not look if you came to debate or be edified, but to come and teach. This all has agreed to be false with Scripture.
    That is not true. If you were to read through the thread you would see I have explained Scripture others have brought forth many times. Yes, there were a few times I did not get to everyone's post because I was on vacation. But I do strive to answer Scripture and give an explanation. For me it is fun to talk about the Bible. Anyways, please explain for me Luke 9:62 from your belief.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    When you did the sins you were doing, was God with you during the time of sinning and He helped you turn away from the sins?
    Seeing as you know that I told you that I do not answer personal questions, let's rephrase your question(s) so that I can answer them for you with Scripture. Your question is actually two questions. So I will break up your one question into two questions (followed by the answers with Scripture).

    Question #1. When a believer sins, is God with them during the time of their sinning?

    Answer #1. No.

    For it is written,

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

    Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
    (Ezekiel 18:24).


    Question #2. When a believer sins, does God help the believer to turn away from their sins?

    Answer #2. If the believer's mindset is to sin here in this world? No.
    If the believer's mindset is to express their sorrow to God and to overcome their sin in this world? Yes.
    In the world to come? Yes.

    Now, it is true that God can prevent even an unbeliever from sinning against Him if it serves his greater plan for good. God had prevented a Gentile from sleeping with Abraham's wife. While God is capable of preventing others from sinning, that does not mean that the unbelieving Gentile would be saved because God is going to prevent him in preventing every single sin that comes into his life. God could have prevented Adam and Eve from sinning. But God allowed it to happen. For the very fact that not all believers are walking holy and upright is proof that God is not forcing or strongly pushing any believer to do what they do not want to do. But what about Ezekiel 36:26-27?

    26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    But this is not talking about the New Testament saint living today. This is talking about the resurrected Messianic Jew or Israelite who will live during the Millennial Reign of Christ.

    "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." (Ezekiel 36:24).

    "And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen." (Ezekiel 36:30).

    If a believer sins today, they must confess of their sins in order to be forgiven of their sins. By doing this, God will help cleanse them from all unrighteousness. It's what 1 John 1:9 says. Granted, they have to be sincere about it. If they are intending to just sin again and they are just paying lip service and they are not intending to really change, then of course God is not going to help them overcome their sin. A believer actually has to desire to want to overcome grievous sin in this life. But sadly, most do not want to do that. In fact, many erroneously believe that is impossible. But little do they realize that with GOD all things are possible (See Matthew 19:26). But what about chastening? Is that not GOD's way of helping us to overcome sin? I believe chastening does not apply to believer's who are seeking to justify a grievous sin and still be saved type belief. Sure, a faithful believer (who does not justify sin) may get off the path and go prodigal for a time, and God can chasten them, but the goal of their being chastised is for them to repent (seeking the Lord's forgiveness) and for them to forsake their sinful or evil ways. If God knows that they are not going to confess and forsake their sin, then God will not chasten them. For God knows that His Word says, he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Why do we disagree on grace/works?
    Are you asking me why you believe the way you do?
    If that is the case: I am not sure you would like in what I have to say.
    But if you truly wanted to hear it, I would be happy to PM you about it (if you are interested).
    If not, I totally understand.
    I know why I believe the way I do. It's because it is what the Bible plainly says. I also realize that I cannot trick God into my way of thinking, either. I cannot serve myself and yet also serve God. Jesus says we cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    That is not true. If you were to read through the thread you would see I have explained Scripture others have brought forth many times. Yes, there were a few times I did not get to everyone's post because I was on vacation. But I do strive to answer Scripture and give an explanation. For me it is fun to talk about the Bible. Anyways, please explain for me Luke 9:62 from your belief.
    I disagree that you are deflecting most times and not debating, but that is my perception.

    Anyways explaining Luk 9:62. If one wants to enter the ministry and continue to engage himself in the affairs of the world, then he is not suitable for the ministry. You cannot serve God and Mammon.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Trust me, your grieving is a result of your theological error being exposed.
    Uh, no. I am grieved by the defense of the immorality of a grievous sin and still be saved gospel and the not so nice tactics used to prove such an erroneous belief. Granted, I have faced even rougher situations before. On one forum, I was called some pretty nasty stuff. Yet, I did not treat them bad in any way to warrant such bad behavior. Then again, Jesus said this would happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    So God is stuck in time as we are?
    While God most certainly has the power to time travel like we see in the movies or exist in all points in time, I simply do not believe God created our universe in this way. For the Scriptures say that God rested (stopped) on the 7th day from all His work from the 6 day creation. If God is existing in all points in time, then He could not really rest from His work on a particular day because in the past time line (Where He is existing, He would still be creating everything within the 6 day creation). Jesus would also be sacrificing Himself over and over and over and over again. Yet, the Scriptures say that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice one time forever. For it is written, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    God is three distinct persons and yet He is also one God. 1 John 5:7 is the one and only verse that describes the Trinity point blank.
    I am glad to see you give a fairly accurate definition of the Trinity. I won’t nit-pick. The thread isn’t about the Trinity. Briefly, 1 John 5:7 isn’t clearly Trinitarian. A monarchian modalist can sign off on 1 John 5:7. Also, the evidence for it being penned by John is about as bad as any NT verse. When the early church debates Arianism at Nicea, surely they’d use this verse. They didn’t. Why? Easier explanation is they didn’t have it. If you want to discuss this further, start a thread for it. But to circle around, glad to see your Trinity definition.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I also believe in Sola Scriptura and have written an extensive two part lengthy article using tons of Scripture as a response against Catholics.
    Glad to see agree with one sola. At least you agree with Luther’s material cause of the Reformation. On Sola Fide you sound very Roman Catholic but at least we agree on the authority issue. I am thankful for that. Yes, RCism has many things correct such as the Trinity. They have justification all messed up.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    But I do not believe in what you believe because it does not even remotely fit the Bible, morality, and or the real world (i.e. you cannot make a parable out of what you believe). I know. I have asked others to try and make a parable out of a grievous sin and still be saved gospel before and they have failed big time. Furthermore, this is also not my first debate involving your kind of belief, either. I have been debating your kind of belief for about 5 years using Scripture on various other forums.
    I’m going to beat an old drum here. You’ve debated it 5 years. I’m sorry, Jason, but whoop-dee-doo.

    Your system is like every single man-made religion that has ever walked the face of the earth.

    Grace is getting what you do not deserve.
    Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.
    Justice is getting what you do deserve.

    Your system knows no grace.
    Your system knows no mercy.
    Your system is pure justice.

    It does not resemble the Bible one bit.

    I have an Arminian feiend who says, “If your grace ain’t greasier than a bucket of chitlin’s and gravy, you might be a legalist.”

    Pretty amazing for an Arminian if you ask me. Some Calvin leaked through there. But more importantly it oozes Paul the apostle.

    In doing good hermeneutics with Paul, we must remember Paul often poses as his own devil’s advocate. Paul will ask questions that are natural objections to his teaching.

    He does this a lot in Romans. Here’s an example......

    Romans 5:20–6:1 (AV): Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Where sin abounded, grace abounded more!!!
    Sin reigned unto death, even so grace might reign through righteousness!!!

    Paul’s echoing Solomon here....

    Lamentations 3:22–23 (AV): It is of the LORD’S mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

    His mercies are new every morning! He’s got so much mercy that he’s stacking it in the streets looking for places to unload it.

    That’s what Paul grasped.

    Where sin abounds, grace abound more.
    Where sin reigns unto death, grace reigns unto righteousness.

    Then Paul anticipates the devil’s advocate:

    Let’s sin so grace may abound!!!

    You respond to us exactly as Paul’s devil’s advocate responds. I take great comfort in this. Why? Because it means my teaching matches Paul’s.

    No one, I mean absolutely no one, will make that objection to your teaching.

    You do not have Paul’s gospel. May your gospel be anathema. May God be merciful and open your eyes to the truth.

    Paul responded to the devil’s advocate:

    Romans 6:1–2 (AV): Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Which is exactly what we say! Even though our grace is greasy; even though where sin abounds, grace abounds more; that doesn’t mean go sin so that grace may abound more. That is The antinomian. We say “how shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?”

    The more you object and claim we are teaching what we are not teaching, the more you prove that we have Paul’s gospel.

    For that I thank you. I hope you see it and catch it.

    I’m working an overnight shift. I see you’re up still. Get some sleep, Friend! Unless you have to be up like me. This thread will be here in the A.M. Have a good night!

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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