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Thread: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

  1. #721
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    That's because it is tied to a heart condition, an attitude. A person (like David) can commit murder from fear or a person (like Judas) can conspire to commit murder because his heart is consumed with evil.

    Both result in the death of an innocent man, but only one is grievous in the eyes of God.

    Chatah - sin of ignorance or ritually unclean state (the latter does not apply to Christians)
    Pesha - sin of passion, fear, unbelief, rebellion against a law
    Avone - sin of rebellion against God. A person with "avone" in his heart will seek to sin just to physically manifest their hate of God. They will persecute God's people, not because they falsely believe they are serving God, but because they want to manifest their hatred of God through the only tangible representation of God they can find.

    Again, it's about the heart. God can take sinful actions as far as east is from the west, but a rebellious and hard heart is unwilling to answer to God's call. God's call is like the stench of death to a person filled with "avone." This is why Jesus said blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is unpardonable, for the heart that accuses the Holy Spirit is consumed by "avone."

    Jesus said as much in the beatitudes - heck God said the same thing to Abel a really long time ago.
    Excellent. And as we know, David was a man after God's own heart.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Excellent. And as we know, David was a man after God's own heart.
    What's so cool about that statement is that it comes from God through His prophet, not from David.

    That tells me a lot about our God, and why I have so much reverence for Him.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Another thing for Jason to consider is when we came to Christ in faith, it was not only a restoration of a relationship but a new relation was created. We became children of God. That is not something to take lightly and also not something to loose and regain whimsically. God does not disown His children and make a mockery of His love.
    "26 I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh."

    Sounds like an act of God to me......so who are we to judge God's handiwork?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    If you are not talking from the Bible then you are really not talking with any kind of spiritual authority or truth for me. My authority is the Bible and not your thoughts.
    Translation : If you don't agree with me , I'm not listening to you.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Here is a commentary by Gill I thought fits the discussion.

    Proverbs 26:12
    Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit,.... Or "in his own eyes" (b); as multitudes may be seen, by looking round; man is a creature but of small knowledge in things natural, civil, mechanical, philosophical, moral, or divine; yet greatly conceited for the most part of his knowledge and wisdom. As by a "fool" in this book is generally understood a wicked profane man, so by a wise man is meant a good and righteous man, and may be so understood here; and many there are who are good and righteous only their own conceit and esteem, not truly so; they place their righteousness in outward things, in the observance of external duties; and though there may be some little imperfection in them, yet they think, as they mean well, God will accept the will for the deed: and some have imagined they have arrived to perfection; and such are generally conceited, proud, and haughty, and despise others; all which flows from ignorance; for, though they fancy themselves to be wise, they are very ignorant of themselves; of the plague of their own hearts; of the law of God, and the spirituality of it, and the extensiveness of its demands; of the strict justice and righteousness of God, which will not admit of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one; and also of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the nature and necessity of that to justify: and this being their case, they are in very dangerous circumstances; they are building on a sand; they are liable to fall into a ditch; they cannot be justified nor saved by their own works; they oppose themselves to God's way of justifying and saving sinners; and he sets himself against them, he resisteth the proud.

    Wherefore
    there is more hope of a fool than of him; of a profane sinner than of a self-righteous person; for Christ came to save sinners, to call them to repentance, and he receives them as such; but not self-righteous persons; and, humanly speaking, there is a greater likelihood and greater hopes of convincing sinners, and bringing them to repentance and to forsake their sins, than there is of convincing a self-righteous man of the insufficiency of his righteousness, and the folly of trusting to it, and of bringing him to repent of such a confidence, and to forsake it; for it is most natural to him; it is his own, and the effect of great labour and pains; and encourages vanity and boasting, which would be excluded should he part with it; see Mat_21:31.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Here is the one that stood out for me. I then looked the verse up inquiring WHY this one would suddenly jump out at me. After reading the verse, I am reminded of something you said that refutes your use of this verse as one to support your theology.

    Do you remember in this series of 2 threads, I raised the issue with Peter's sin in denying Christ and asking if that sin caused God to abandon him and this caused Peter to loose salvation?

    Your answer was basically that Peter could not loose salvation because the Holy Spirit had not yet come and this is your way of "dismissing" that God remained with Peter after he had sinned and in dismissing, avoided discussing honestly.

    Basically this is what is happening... you are deceiving yourself and making ALL attempts to stand on a false theology. You are so deceived that I'm gonna ask you this:

    Do you see how you "yourself" have been pointing out ALL the holes in this theology simply by the use of isolated scriptures, along with your responses, that literally COUNTER and refute your points more and more?

    Your response that Peter could not loose salvation because the Holy Spirit had not come yet... well, the Holy Spirit had not come in the time all those disciples (John 6:66) chose to stop following Jesus.

    So, BY YOUR response about Peter, you CAN'T use John 6:66 as a verse to support the theology that God abandons a person after they have done ONE sin.

    If I'm prompted to address more, I will be obedient to the Holy Spirit.

    However, if you are to receive this help, you also must be obedient to the Holy Spirit.
    First problem. Whether a person has the Spirit or not, God would be a respecter of persons if He allowed one set of group of believers to be saved because they had the Spirit and sinned vs. not saving those who did not have the Spirit and sinned.

    11 "For there is no respect of persons with God.
    12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" (Romans 2:11-12).

    Second problem in what you believe is that by what you said so far: It has given me the impression that "Sin is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten." A person can commit grievious sin and be saved and they do not have to worry because God will chasten them every time. So a believer can sin, be chastened, sin again, be chastened, sin again and be chastened and sin again and be chastened in endless cycle their whole lives. But where is the change? Where is the fear of God? Also, when others here teach that David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder and they think they can either commit adultery and murder and be saved, their listeners could think it is okay to commit grievous sin and still be saved and they could very well ignore God's chastening. If they do that, the teacher who led them to think that way will be in part to blame. Why? Because the Bible does not teach that chastening is like this awesome safety net that makes you okay with God. Personally, I believe a believer who has the mindset that says that one can commit grievous sin with the thinking they are saved will not have any kind of chastening from God. How so? Because chastening is for that person who truly wants to walk uprightly in this life as Scripture says. However, in the Belief Alone Camp, they despise the idea of overcoming sin in this life. Many say it is heresy.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Translation : If you don't agree with me , I'm not listening to you.
    So you don't feel the Bible is the final Word of authority on spiritual matters? That is what I am saying here.
    If you cannot bring up Scripture, then there is no discussion.
    I have talked with liberals on another forum and some of them do not have a high regard for Scripture.
    So naturally using God's Word with them in our discussions does not mean much to them.
    Would you say that you are a liberal?
    Please take no offense. I am not saying you are one. I am just curious if you are one or not.
    I just say this because this is the normal tactic of certain liberals.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Wrongly judging your brothers . James 4 11-12 doesn't tell us to judge if you think your right brother. You have judged the church, and the brethren on this board. Wrongly , I might add. But because you are perfect you won't see it.
    I am judging the wrong beliefs. It is not wrong to judge what the Bible condemns. I have put forth Scripture even showing that it is not my judgment but it is God's Judgment by His very own Word. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with God and not me. I am just the messenger.

  9. #729
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    First problem. Whether a person has the Spirit or not, God would be a respecter of persons if He allowed one set of group of believers to be saved because they had the Spirit and sinned vs. not saving those who did not have the Spirit and sinned.
    In this context no one could be saved at all Jason. "Respecter of persons" has more to do with someone thinking they can be justified through their own works, like you do bro.


    Second problem in what you believe is that by what you said so far: It has given me the impression that "Sin is no more dangerous than a fluffy kitten."
    This is an irrational statement. Plain and simple.

    A person can commit grievious sin and be saved and they do not have to worry because God will chasten them every time. So a believer can sin, be chastened, sin again, be chatened, sin again and be chastened and sin again and be chastened in endless cycle their whole lives.
    Ken never implied this. There you go judging others again.

    But where is the change? Where is the fear of God? Also, when others here teach that David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder and they think they can either commit adultery and murder and be saved, their listeners could think it is okay to commit grievous sin and still be saved and they could very well ignore God's chastening.
    The fact that someone will repent is fruit of the chastening Jason. For someone to go through the motions of self repentance is not of God and un-genuine.

    If they do that, you will be in part to blame. Why? Because the Bible does not teach that chastening is like this awesome safety net that makes you okay with God.
    First, you are throwing out the baby with the bathwater ... Ken isn't saying someone cannot refuse to repent when chastened. That would be foolish. You are totally disregarding biblical chastisement and replacing it with your own effort. Good luck with that Jason. Also, know that you will be judged by the same unit of measure that you judge by. This should frighten you.

    Personally, I believe a believer who has the mindset that says that one can commit grievous sin with the thinking they are saved will not have any kind of chastening from God. How so? Because chastening is for that person who truly wants to walk uprightly in this life as Scripture says. However, in the Belief Alone Camp, they despise the idea of overcoming sin in this life. Many say it is heresy.
    Conviction and chastisement don't work this way Jason. Though I wouldn't expect you to know as it seems you live so perfect that you never need chastisement, and have never been convicted. That should worry you.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    That's because you have set yourself up as 'the' spiritual authority without anyone tangible to answer to. This is why forsaking the assembly of Jesus' saints leads to incorrect doctrine, perverting God's Word and sullying His Name. By forsaking God's people, you nullify the teaching of the Spirit to many, who have been empowered with the discernment to bring a saint back to correct doctrine through Godly council. You have deserted God's people Jason, in favor of your own tunnel vision of God's Glory.

    I don't know what that means to God but for me it's grievous.

    "Without faith, it is impossible to please God...."

    Our God isn't appeasable, like the Greek gods were in that culture. You can't make up for your sin with some good works. That only works for secular greek minded folks, and it is limited at that. The ONLY and I mean

    the

    O N L Y thing that pleases God is our faith. Of course that faith extends into works, but those works don't belong to us, they belong to HIM - and that is what we are exercising right now in an attempt to exhort you into God's magnificence. We are made righteous by Him for HIS Namesake, not mine and not yours. If you don't appreciate the work God has done in His Saints, you have just declared either His saints liars or you have declared God a liar.

    Which one is it Jason?
    You just written off the verses I provided that show certain grievous sins that lead to spiritual death. You need to address those verses I have put forth with some kind of explanation on those verses instead of giving a pat answer that is merely a quick short opinion. Just saying that you are correct does not mean you are correct. You have to prove your case that you are correct. Convince me. Explain to me the verses I showed to you. Right now I am in discussion with another poster in another Christian forum. While he is in error for not addressing the context or altering what the verses say, he will at least address the verses I bring forth. I have noticed some folks here have trouble in wanting to discuss the Bible. Please do not let me think you are one of them.

  11. #731
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    So you don't feel the Bible is the final Word of authority on spiritual matters? That is what I am saying here.
    Save it brother.. That's not what you're saying at all.

    If you cannot bring up Scripture, then there is no discussion.
    Scripture is simply dismissed or the "in context card" is pulled, hence the discussion of logic and situation.

    I have talked with liberals on another forum and some of them do not have a high regard for Scripture.
    So we are now being labeled liberals eh ? Such is life...

    So naturally using God's Word with them in our discussions does not mean much to them.
    Would you say that you are a liberal?
    No, I wouldn't. What you completely fail to see is that no one here has argued that someone cannot fall away. It's not really the discussion at hand. The discussion at hand is your salvation by works heresy that makes you god. It heresy.

    Please take no offense. I am not saying you are one. I am just curious if you are one or not.
    I'm not one.

    I just say this because this is the normal tactic of certain liberals.
    Faith and repentance are the only requirement for someone to be saved. It must be genuine and God must be working or it's void. If that's a liberal then I'm all in.

    You can take your works based salvation and I'll take joy and peace in Christ.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I am judging the wrong beliefs. It is not wrong to judge what the Bible condemns. I have put forth Scripture even showing that it is not my judgment but it is God's Judgment by His very own Word.
    So if you have a problem with it, take it up with God and not me. I am just the messenger
    .
    You're judging people who you believe have a speck in their eyes while you are sporting a telephone pole. But I see now you are God's mouthpiece eh ? Please....

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Here is a commentary by Gill I thought fits the discussion.

    Proverbs 26:12
    Seest thou a man wise in his own conceit,.... Or "in his own eyes" (b); as multitudes may be seen, by looking round; man is a creature but of small knowledge in things natural, civil, mechanical, philosophical, moral, or divine; yet greatly conceited for the most part of his knowledge and wisdom. As by a "fool" in this book is generally understood a wicked profane man, so by a wise man is meant a good and righteous man, and may be so understood here; and many there are who are good and righteous only their own conceit and esteem, not truly so; they place their righteousness in outward things, in the observance of external duties; and though there may be some little imperfection in them, yet they think, as they mean well, God will accept the will for the deed: and some have imagined they have arrived to perfection; and such are generally conceited, proud, and haughty, and despise others; all which flows from ignorance; for, though they fancy themselves to be wise, they are very ignorant of themselves; of the plague of their own hearts; of the law of God, and the spirituality of it, and the extensiveness of its demands; of the strict justice and righteousness of God, which will not admit of an imperfect righteousness in the room of a perfect one; and also of the righteousness of Jesus Christ, the nature and necessity of that to justify: and this being their case, they are in very dangerous circumstances; they are building on a sand; they are liable to fall into a ditch; they cannot be justified nor saved by their own works; they oppose themselves to God's way of justifying and saving sinners; and he sets himself against them, he resisteth the proud.

    Wherefore
    there is more hope of a fool than of him; of a profane sinner than of a self-righteous person; for Christ came to save sinners, to call them to repentance, and he receives them as such; but not self-righteous persons; and, humanly speaking, there is a greater likelihood and greater hopes of convincing sinners, and bringing them to repentance and to forsake their sins, than there is of convincing a self-righteous man of the insufficiency of his righteousness, and the folly of trusting to it, and of bringing him to repent of such a confidence, and to forsake it; for it is most natural to him; it is his own, and the effect of great labour and pains; and encourages vanity and boasting, which would be excluded should he part with it; see Mat_21:31.
    Gill believes works are necessary but they are not necessary for salvation. No wonder you quote somebody who agrees with your theology. It does not mean you are correct in any way. What matters is what does God's Word really say on such matters. Proverbs 26 deals with those who are wise in their own eyes outside of what God's Word says. Morality is also upheld in this chapter. Lying is condemned at the end of the chapter. Yet, in the grievous sin and still be saved type belief, it is not condemned. One can lie and still be saved. Yet, Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire. Obviously a person can be righteous outwardly, but if they are not truly obeying God's laws after being saved by God's grace, then they are just fooling themselves. The same is true for those who think they can commit grievous sin and be saved after they are saved by God's grace. For Matthew 13:41-42 says that Jesus will send forth his angels to gather out His Kingdom all who offend (sin) and who work iniquity (intense sin) and they will cast them into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire) where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. John 12:48 says that if we do not receive the words of Jesus, then those very words will judge us on the last day. Which words? See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46, etc.

    As for Matthew 21:31:

    I am not sure how that helps your belief in a grievous sin and still be saved gospel here. The whole point of the Parable of the Two Sons is that the first son actually was said to have done the will of the Father by repenting and going into his vineyard to do the work (Which is likened unto us spreading the good news unto others). Jesus parallels the first son's correct actions of harlots and tax collectors going into the Kingdom of God before the chief priests and elders of the people (the Jews). This means that the harlots and tax collectors were saved and the chief priests and elders were not saved.

    Verse 31 is NOT saying that believers are still remaining as harlots and or as tax collectors still. This is evident by the fact that the first son repented and actually went and did work in the vineyard (Thereby doing the Father's will). The second son did not do the father's will because he repented but he went not out to do the work.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I am judging the wrong beliefs. It is not wrong to judge what the Bible condemns. I have put forth Scripture even showing that it is not my judgment but it is God's Judgment by His very own Word. So if you have a problem with it, take it up with God and not me. I am just the messenger.
    Jason, this is a useless statement. Why? Because it is precisely what all of us are doing.

    As I said previously, as a person, you seem likeable. Iíd go have a burger or pizza with you and discuss this face to face. We do not have an issue with you as a person. We are using the Word of God to judge your doctrine and, as much as possible, your actions.

    Your doctrine doesnít match the Scripture in any of our hermeneutic. You claim to agree with the Trinity and sola Scriptura and some other things. Great! - assuming you define those correctly.

    But where we as a group disagree with you, Iíd best describe as a poison or a cancer - arcenic. A little arsenic ruins the whole dish.

    And your practice....

    Everyone here is accountable to others. You arenít. We, and all churches (according to you) are wrong. Thatís cultish on your part.

    Weíd love to have true fellowship with you. We donít hate you. We donít dislike you. We must guard against and point out the poisonous cancer you are proclaiming.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Save it brother.. That's not what you're saying at all.



    Scripture is simply dismissed or the "in context card" is pulled, hence the discussion of logic and situation.



    So we are now being labeled liberals eh ? Such is life...



    No, I wouldn't. What you completely fail to see is that no one here has argued that someone cannot fall away. It's not really the discussion at hand. The discussion at hand is your salvation by works heresy that makes you god. It heresy.



    I'm not one.



    Faith and repentance are the only requirement for someone to be saved. It must be genuine and God must be working or it's void. If that's a liberal then I'm all in.

    You can take your works based salvation and I'll take joy and peace in Christ.
    I still don't see you bringing up any verses.

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