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Thread: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047
    Most here believe 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is a declaration that the believer will always be in some kind of sin in their life. They believe that overcoming sin is not possible this side of Heaven. Naturally, multiple sins awaits their future as a matter of fact for them.
    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Another bogus assumption.


    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum
    "He became sin who knew no sin , that I may become the righteousness of God"....

    Thank you Jesus for bearing a burden that not one single person could ever bear. Thank you for your righteousness, and not my own. Forgive me , a sinner !!!
    Quote Originally Posted by Keck553
    Amen. Glory to God.
    This is the double message that that is commonly pushed in a grievous sin and still be saved type belief. On the one hand you want me to believe that you don't think 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is not a declaration that the believer is always going to be in some kind of sin, and then you turn around and agree with our friend here that 2 Corinthians 5:21 is his declaration that he is a sinner still and needs forgiveness (Whereby he is thanking the Lord for His righteousness). However, 1 John 1:7 says you have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of all sin. Yes, we can confess our sins and be forgiven of our sins. But we cannot keep remaining in our sins and say we are still a sinner in the present tense. If a believer is honestly struggling with sin for a short time in their life, God can forgive them if they are confessing their sin, but God will help that believer to overcome their sins. We cannot remain in our sins and say we are sinners. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Yet, Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    You know Jason after attending our Pentecost service today I realize that one can not obey God's command by following your doctrine. Do you know why it is impossible?

    We know that God's command is to love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself. To love one's neighbour one must become the servant of your neighbour and to do upon him as unto yourself in love. Now if one is to continuously keep one's eye on yourself and the law to make sure that you do not by any chance sin and become separated from God, then there is no way that you can love God and your neighbour as the Bible teaches. Then you are serving two masters, love and the law. It will give you a hardened heart like the Pharisees in not helping their neighbour because of the law and not doing good, which is what God demands. See parable of the good Samaritan.
    With God, all things are possible (See Matthew 19:26).
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    And I keep telling you that you have NOT demonstrated an accurate exegesis of what "grevious sin" really is. Until you do that in proper theological context, you are just howling at the moon.
    You have to explain why the verses I posted are not talking about grievous sins that leads to spiritual death. Just saying so does not mean anything. I think the verses I pretty clear in what they say. But if you do not believe that, then please show me how they are not saying that.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    I am glad to see you give a fairly accurate definition of the Trinity. I wonít nit-pick. The thread isnít about the Trinity. Briefly, 1 John 5:7 isnít clearly Trinitarian. A monarchian modalist can sign off on 1 John 5:7. Also, the evidence for it being penned by John is about as bad as any NT verse. When the early church debates Arianism at Nicea, surely theyíd use this verse. They didnít. Why? Easier explanation is they didnít have it. If you want to discuss this further, start a thread for it. But to circle around, glad to see your Trinity definition.


    Glad to see agree with one sola. At least you agree with Lutherís material cause of the Reformation. On Sola Fide you sound very Roman Catholic but at least we agree on the authority issue. I am thankful for that. Yes, RCism has many things correct such as the Trinity. They have justification all messed up.


    Iím going to beat an old drum here. Youíve debated it 5 years. Iím sorry, Jason, but whoop-dee-doo.

    Your system is like every single man-made religion that has ever walked the face of the earth.

    Grace is getting what you do not deserve.
    Mercy is not getting what you do deserve.
    Justice is getting what you do deserve.

    Your system knows no grace.
    Your system knows no mercy.
    Your system is pure justice.

    It does not resemble the Bible one bit.

    I have an Arminian feiend who says, ďIf your grace ainít greasier than a bucket of chitlinís and gravy, you might be a legalist.Ē

    Pretty amazing for an Arminian if you ask me. Some Calvin leaked through there. But more importantly it oozes Paul the apostle.

    In doing good hermeneutics with Paul, we must remember Paul often poses as his own devilís advocate. Paul will ask questions that are natural objections to his teaching.

    He does this a lot in Romans. Hereís an example......

    Romans 5:20Ė6:1 (AV): Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord. What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

    Where sin abounded, grace abounded more!!!
    Sin reigned unto death, even so grace might reign through righteousness!!!

    Paulís echoing Solomon here....

    Lamentations 3:22Ė23 (AV): It is of the LORDíS mercies that we are not consumed, because his compassions fail not. 23 They are new every morning: great is thy faithfulness.

    His mercies are new every morning! Heís got so much mercy that heís stacking it in the streets looking for places to unload it.

    Thatís what Paul grasped.

    Where sin abounds, grace abound more.
    Where sin reigns unto death, grace reigns unto righteousness.

    Then Paul anticipates the devilís advocate:

    Letís sin so grace may abound!!!

    You respond to us exactly as Paulís devilís advocate responds. I take great comfort in this. Why? Because it means my teaching matches Paulís.

    No one, I mean absolutely no one, will make that objection to your teaching.

    You do not have Paulís gospel. May your gospel be anathema. May God be merciful and open your eyes to the truth.

    Paul responded to the devilís advocate:

    Romans 6:1Ė2 (AV): Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

    Which is exactly what we say! Even though our grace is greasy; even though where sin abounds, grace abounds more; that doesnít mean go sin so that grace may abound more. That is The antinomian. We say ďhow shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?Ē

    The more you object and claim we are teaching what we are not teaching, the more you prove that we have Paulís gospel.

    For that I thank you. I hope you see it and catch it.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TrustGzus again.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    With God, all things are possible (See Matthew 19:26).
    I agree, but that is not what your doctrine says, is it?

    You must overcome ....

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TrustGzus again.
    I missed this post by TrustGzus. I will have to reply to this one tomorrow. For now, I gotta sleep.

    May God bless you all (even if we disagree strongly on this topic).

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    I agree, but that is not what your doctrine says, is it?

    You must overcome ....
    I believe God plays an essential part in overcoming sin, ... so no.
    Hence, why I said with God all things are possible.
    I didn't say with me, all things are possible.
    That would be insanity for a Christian to even claim such a thing.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I believe God plays an essential part in overcoming sin, ... so no.
    Hence, why I said with God all things are possible.
    I didn't say with me, all things are possible.
    That would be insanity for a Christian to even claim that.
    It does not make sense for you are apart, separated from God for you are in sin. God divorced you so you are on your own. You are dead and you have to overcome and come back, that is what you are saying.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    You know Jason many friends here know of my marital problems and praying for us. Me and my wife are now separated for almost 5 and a half years and in this time she had done many unspeakable things to hurt me. But you know what, I can still love her and pray for our healing and our marriage which God had promised to bless. The reason why I can do this and not abandon her is because of God and His love for me. He is the example I am striving to keep. He had never left me or abandoned me and therefore do I not abandon my wife. He is faithful even if we are not.

    2Ti 2:13 If we are not faithful, he remains faithful, because he cannot be false to himself."

    This is the God I know and love.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Seeing as you know that I told you that I do not answer personal questions, let's rephrase your question(s) so that I can answer them for you with Scripture. Your question is actually a two questions. So I will break up your one question into two questions (followed by the answers with Scripture).

    Question #1. When a believer sins, is God with them during the time of their sinning?

    Answer #1. No.

    For it is written,

    "But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear." (Isaiah 59:2).

    Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

    Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

    “But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (Matthew 6:15).

    "Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

    "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth." (1 John 1:6).

    "He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." (1 John 2:4).

    "In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother." (1 John 3:10).

    “But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.”
    (Ezekiel 18:24).


    Question #2. When a believer sins, does God help the believer to turn away from their sins?

    Answer #2. If the believer's mindset is to sin here in this world? No.
    If the believer's mindset is to express their sorrow to God and to overcome their sin in this world? Yes.
    In the world to come? Yes.

    Now, it is true that God can prevent even an unbeliever from sinning against Him if it serves his greater plan for good. God had prevented a Gentile from sleeping with Abraham's wife. While God is capable of preventing others from sinning, that does not mean that the unbelieving Gentile would be saved because God is going to prevent him in preventing every single sin that comes into his life. God could have prevented Adam and Eve from sinning. But God allowed it to happen. For the very fact that not all believers are walking holy and upright is proof that God is not forcing or strongly pushing any believer to do what they do not want to do. But what about Ezekiel 36:26-27?

    26 "A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
    27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27).

    But this is not talking about the New Testament saint living today. This is talking about the resurrected Messianic Jew or Israelite who will live during the Millennial Reign of Christ.

    "For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land." (Ezekiel 36:24).

    "And I will multiply the fruit of the tree, and the increase of the field, that ye shall receive no more reproach of famine among the heathen." (Ezekiel 36:30).

    If a believer sins today, they must confess of their sins in order to be forgiven of their sins. By doing this, God will help cleanse them from all unrighteousness. It's what 1 John 1:9 says. Granted, they have to be sincere about it. If they are intending to just sin again and they are just paying lip service and they are not intending to really change, then of course God is not going to help them overcome their sin. A believer actually has to desire to want to overcome grievous sin in this life. But sadly, most do not want to do that. In fact, many erroneously believe that is impossible. But little do they realize that with GOD all things are possible (See Matthew 19:26). But what about chastening? Is that not GOD's way of helping us to overcome sin? I believe chastening does not apply to believer's who are seeking to justify a grievous sin and still be saved type belief. Sure, a faithful believer (who does not justify sin) may get off the path and go prodigal for a time, and God can chasten them, but the goal of their being chastised is for them to repent (seeking the Lord's forgiveness) and for them to forsake their sinful or evil ways. If God knows that they are not going to confess and forsake their sin, then God will not chasten them. For God knows that His Word says, he that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (See Proverbs 28:13).

    While I understand all these scripture, they have a proper application and balance according to the character of God. A character that while enough is revealed for us to understand, we cannot comprehend all. I say that because based on your posts, if you were not able to look at most of ALL of King David's life and was only able to see him in the now, see him do sin after sin, after sin... by your words and the "WAY" you apply the many scriptures above... I would expect for you to judge King David as a NON-Christian or a fake Christian.

    All these verses can have a balance and we find that when a person is sinning in the Bible, God does not leave them in the "manner" in which you are saying. God does separate Himself, but this is not as in an abandoning or forsaking manner as you have been saying.

    I can verify this also.... you, being LIKE Christ, you have a close friendship with a "bud" for many years. You are both Christians and you find that your friend has been pulling away from the church you attend, doesn't come to Bible-studies anymore, avoids you, etc. You finally confront him and press him to find out what is wrong and he's fallen into porn on the internet. ARE YOU going to CONTINUE being LIKE-Christ and continue to offer help, correct him, and ALWAYS make yourself available? Or are you going to abandon your friend and forsake him?

    If God did abandon and forsake as you've been saying, then He would not be patient, long suffering, compassionate, merciful and above all, loving. AND IF you also were none of these to your friend, should I observe YOU in HOW you abandoned a friend when they were in need of being corrected and all you did was abandon them, WOULD I be ABLE to say that Christ is truly IN YOU???

    Think about that! Please.

    As for God, Yes, He is also wrathful, even vengeful but the BALANCE of all these characteristics of God still does NOT mean He will abandon nor forsake in the MANNER in which you say.

    I mentioned earlier about getting to know me. I will post the link to a testimony I have verbally given publically and posted the write up here on this board. But if you CAREFULLY read the testimony, you will get to know more than just about "me." You will also be able to get to KNOW how God never abandoned me even while I was allowing and at times, craving the sin that afflicted me with addiction: http://bibleforums.org/showthread.ph...estimony-today

    Jason, I will be honest... anyone who speaks a testimony of overcoming sin (before and AFTER having become saved) and God is not revealed in that testimony as having been PRESENT... that isn't a testimony at all because God will not get the glory, the person will get the glory for having overcome and THEN believe they have to "re-save" themselves by AGAIN petition God to redeem them, again.

    God is always there, it is the INTIMACY that is lost when any Christian sins after becoming a believer. God will NEVER forsake us, we are the one's who forsake Him.

    Did God abandon "you" when you allowed sin back into your life, or was God present helping you to break free, again from that sin? THEN, when He did help you overcome the sin (again), did you pray for SALVATION (again) OR did you do what those in the Bible do after they have repented... you CELEBRATED God for NOT abandoning you and praised Him for allowing you back INTO intimacy with Him?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I still don't see you bringing up any verses.
    And you probably won't any more. You dismiss them , so what's the point ?

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post




    This is the double message that that is commonly pushed in a grievous sin and still be saved type belief
    . On the one hand you want me to believe that you don't think 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is not a declaration that the believer is always going to be in some kind of sin, and then you turn around and agree with our friend here that 2 Corinthians 5:21 is his declaration that he is a sinner still and needs forgiveness (Whereby he is thanking the Lord for His righteousness). However, 1 John 1:7 says you have to walk in the light as Christ is in the light in order for the blood of Jesus to cleanse you of all sin. Yes, we can confess our sins and be forgiven of our sins. But we cannot keep remaining in our sins and say we are still a sinner in the present tense. If a believer is honestly struggling with sin for a short time in their life, God can forgive them if they are confessing their sin, but God will help that believer to overcome their sins. We cannot remain in our sins and say we are sinners. Jesus says he that sins is a slave to sin. Yet, Jesus says you cannot serve two masters.
    Your insinuation that I'm sending a double message is undeserved. Your insinuation that repentance is trivial is also undeserved. Who gets to decide the rate of sanctification in a repentant believers life ? YOU ? The bible, as much as you may say it does, DOES NOT tell us at what rate individual believers overcome strongholds in their lives. You don't get to make that call Jason. Sorry, but your not God. We do indeed grow in Christ and also we strive for sanctification through discipleship and being in the body of Christ, which you have also trivialized.

    I'll give you an example. In the D.R. Congo, I met a young man on a bicycle. He had been riding all day and it was about 95 degrees. I offered him some water and he cooled off. I shared the message of Christ with him and he put his faith in God and repented of his sins. He picked up his supplies, then rode straight back to the jungle. There is no church there, there is no discipleship there. At what rate does he grow in sanctification Jason. YOU TELL ME SINCE YOU HAVE ALL THE ANSWERS. Would his life look like mine ?

    Granted, he was given a bible, and time was spent with him, but my point is that only God can sanctify. Your fleshly and my fleshly attempts in self sanctification stink in the nostrils of God. No man , NONE , can sanctify themselves. Only God, through the Holy Spirit can. Woks come from this, not vice-versa.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    You have to explain why the verses I posted are not talking about grievous sins that leads to spiritual death. Just saying so does not mean anything. I think the verses I pretty clear in what they say. But if you do not believe that, then please show me how they are not saying that.
    i gave you Scripture. you ignored it and contune with your false definition

    your issue, not mine
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Are you asking me why you believe the way you do?
    If that is the case: I am not sure you would like in what I have to say.
    But if you truly wanted to hear it, I would be happy to PM you about it (if you are interested).
    If not, I totally understand.
    I know why I believe the way I do. It's because it is what the Bible plainly says. I also realize that I cannot trick God into my way of thinking, either. I cannot serve myself and yet also serve God. Jesus says we cannot serve two masters, for you will hate the one and love the other.
    Let me guess, we dont have the Holy Spirit in us? As a Christian I am completely transparent. if you can’t accuse me or condemn me in public, don’t bother accusing me in private.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    That is not true. If you were to read through the thread you would see I have explained Scripture others have brought forth many times. Yes, there were a few times I did not get to everyone's post because I was on vacation. But I do strive to answer Scripture and give an explanation. For me it is fun to talk about the Bible. Anyways, please explain for me Luke 9:62 from your belief.
    no you have not addressed most of the Scriptures we have presented.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Uh, no. I am grieved by the defense of the immorality of a grievous sin and still be saved gospel and the not so nice tactics used to prove such an erroneous belief. Granted, I have faced even rougher situations before. On one forum, I was called some pretty nasty stuff. Yet, I did not treat them bad in any way to warrant such bad behavior. Then again, Jesus said this would happen.



    While God most certainly has the power to time travel like we see in the movies or exist in all points in time, I simply do not believe God created our universe in this way. For the Scriptures say that God rested (stopped) on the 7th day from all His work from the 6 day creation. If God is existing in all points in time, then He could not really rest from His work on a particular day because in the past time line (Where He is existing, He would still be creating everything within the 6 day creation). Jesus would also be sacrificing Himself over and over and over and over again. Yet, the Scriptures say that Jesus offered Himself as a sacrifice one time forever. For it is written, "But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;" (Hebrews 10:12).
    Please stop with the martyr complex.

    Irrelivant. you still do t understand what grevious sin is. You use it like some magic word around here, but stumble all over the place in your saved/unsaved/saved/unsaved merry-go-round
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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