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Thread: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

  1. #676
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    You are not reading 2 Corinthians 5:21 correctly.
    Shocking response.

    Expound James 4 / 11 Jason, and then tell me how this doesn't apply to you.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Actually the verse I was referring to was Luke 9:62.

    It is where Jesus says,
    "No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

    This saying is non-sensical with your kind of belief.

    As for your odd view that a believer can be saved even while not abiding in Christ:

    Actually, there are several passages that tell us that you cannot be out of fellowship with God and be saved.

    #1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

    #2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

    #3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

    #4. Psalm 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

    #5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

    #6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin.

    #7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.
    Jason... was God still with you when you began to willfully sin and He helped you to turn back from that sin?

    Let me add this also.

    This theology, you say that ONE sin, God cuts you off... so if God tells you to do something, is it a sin to refuse and in that refusal (sin), will God cut you off?

    OR... as I've been saying, will stay with you and convict you of the error of refusal, for the purpose of having you choose to be obedient (stop sinning)??
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


  3. #678
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    I thought that "loving your enemies" was a command, that if broken was "grievous" ?
    This merely shows that you did not actually read or remember clearly what I had written.
    I said that I am not aware of any punishment mentioned in Scripture that is attached to not loving your enemies.

    I also thought that you stated earlier that "not preaching the Gospel " was another "grievous" sin, was it not ?
    Luke 9:62 says,
    "And Jesus said unto him, No man, having put his hand to the plough,
    and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God."

    What does this verse even mean with your belief?
    Do you just skip over verses like this?

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    The whole problem with your doctrine is that you don't actually know what sin is brother.
    So you think that the verses I listed to you before on sins are not sins?
    I posted Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, 1 John 3:15, Galatians 5:19-21, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by You
    You are in sin RIGHT NOW but refuse to accept it.
    What sin do you think I am in right now? I would be happy that you would point it out so I could seek forgiveness with God, if that was the case. But if I believed as you do, it really wouldn't matter if you told me. That's what I find disturbing about your belief.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Shocking response.

    Expound James 4 / 11 Jason, and then tell me how this doesn't apply to you.
    You are leaving out the other verses that explain why your interpretation on that verse is not correct.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Jason... was God still with you when you began to willfully sin and He helped you to turn back from that sin?
    Why don't you try addressing a few of the verses instead of asking false accusatory questions for a change.
    I think that would be more productive.

    In any event, may God bless you.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    And I've talked with believer's who claim to be perfect... What's the point ? It's not the position of the Calvinist's doctrine at large.
    The point is that you said no Calvinist says that. My testimony or experience says otherwise.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Why don't you try addressing a few of the verses instead of asking false accusatory questions for a change.
    I think that would be more productive.

    In any event, may God bless you.
    I bet your admission that God was with you while you were sinning and by His help, you were able to turn from the sinning... is what God is attempting to get you to do so He can be more productive in glorifying Himself through your period of being prodigal.

    Face it brother... you know it's the truth in your spirit but you are resisting God's means to glorify Himself in having helped you turn from that period of rebellion.

    I can't count the number of times I've listened to those in recovery say that God don't love them because they are in recovery...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Why don't you try addressing a few of the verses instead of asking false accusatory questions for a change.
    I think that would be more productive.

    In any event, may God bless you.
    This theology, you say that ONE sin, God cuts you off... so if God tells you to do something, is it a sin to refuse and in that refusal (sin), will God cut you off?

    OR... as I've been saying, will stay with you and convict you of the error of refusal, for the purpose of having you choose to be obedient (stop sinning)??
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    I bet your admission that God was with you while you were sinning and by His help, you were able to turn from the sinning... is what God is attempting to get you to do so He can be more productive in glorifying Himself through your period of being prodigal.

    Face it brother... you know it's the truth in your spirit but you are resisting God's means to glorify Himself in having helped you turn from that period of rebellion.



    This theology, you say that ONE sin, God cuts you off... so if God tells you to do something, is it a sin to refuse and in that refusal (sin), will God cut you off?

    OR... as I've been saying, will stay with you and convict you of the error of refusal, for the purpose of having you choose to be obedient (stop sinning)??
    I don't see any verses in your post. Again, why don't you try explaining the verses I put forth for a change so we can have a real discussion with the Bible.

    Side Note:

    Please keep in my mind that when you write like this, you take a high percentage of chance that I will just tune it out like white noise. In fact, I have no idea what you just said. I was merely scanning your words for Scripture and did not see any. So please bring up some Scripture so we can talk please. Otherwise you are wasting my time. I am here to: "Let's talk Bible" (as the top of the website says). If you are not interested in doing that anymore, then I think you are at the wrong place.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I don't see any verses in your post. Again, why don't you try explaining the verses I put forth for a change so we can have a real discussion with the Bible.
    Jason, I am asking you, not the Bible and a verse will not answer FOR you.

    Was God still with you when you began to willfully sin and He helped you to turn back from that sin?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Anyone who says Calvinism is the gospel does not know what the gospel is.
    Can a person be saved and not know the gospel?
    Pro 28:11 Rich people always think they are wise, but a poor person who has insight into character knows better.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Slug1 View Post
    Jason, I am asking you, not the Bible and a verse will not answer FOR you.

    Was God still with you when you began to willfully sin and He helped you to turn back from that sin?
    I already told others repeatedly here that abiding in grievous unrepentant sin is separation from God and it equates with spiritual death. Only repentance (seeking the Lord Jesus's forgiveness by prayer) can restore a person back to salvation again. James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15) teaches that a believer can go from a saved state, to an unsaved state, and then become saved again. The father said that his son was "dead" and was "alive again" two times. He said he was "lost" and now he is "found." This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. For it would make very little sense if it was not talking about salvation. The previous two parables on repentance makes that even more clear.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

  12. #687
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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Most here believe 1 John 1:8, Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23 is a declaration that the believer will always be in some kind of sin in their life. They believe that overcoming sin is not possible this side of Heaven. Naturally, multiple sins awaits their future as a matter of fact for them.
    Overcoming any perpetual sin is definitely attainable and should be the normal Christian life. However, to be free from the imperfection of sin while in the flesh is not attainable.

    Saul's men who were seeking to kill David had the Spirit fall upon them and they even prophesied. That does not mean Saul's men were saved in that moment. I believe the gifting of the Holy Spirit had a different purpose or different duties in the Old Testament vs. the New Testament. I believe the Holy Spirit was given so as to help with leadership in David being king.

    "Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah." (1 Samuel 16:13).

    Was David unsaved before that time by not having the Spirit?

    Also, the problem with saying that David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder is basically telling others that they are free to commit grievous sin and still be pleasing in God's sight so as to go to Heaven. For it makes it look like God is rewarding someone for doing evil (or despite their evil). This to me does not seem like a fair, just, and good God. Where is justice? Sure, you may say that Jesus paid for this crime, but if that was the case, then why doesn't Jesus pay for unbeliever's sins, too? What really separates the unbeliever from the believer with your belief? Does having a belief alone really make you a better person? Imagine if Hitler believed in your belief. Would not his actions put you in doubt that he was a man of God (if he believed in your belief)?
    David is not describing the Spirit "falling on him" in that prayer of repentance. That's simply you inferring into the text your personal doctrine. It's not even remotely similar to Saul's experience.

    I would say not.
    Hitler would really not be "Changed by Him." (if he believed in your belief).
    I'm not sure what you're trying to say here but it's not coming across very Christlike. I've done nothing to you and yet you declared me to be hostile. Time to look in the mirror.

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    Please keep in my mind that when you write like this, you take a high percentage of chance that I will just tune it out like white noise. In fact, I have no idea what you just said. I was merely scanning your words for Scripture and did not see any. So please bring up some Scripture so we can talk please. Otherwise you are wasting my time. I am here to: "Let's talk Bible" (as the top of the website says). If you are not interested in doing that anymore, then I think you are at the wrong place.
    I want to bring up some verses for the next part, but I can't until I have an answer from you

    This theology, you say that ONE sin, God cuts you off... so if God tells you to do something, is it a sin to refuse and in that refusal (sin), will God cut you off?

    OR... as I've been saying, will stay with you and convict you of the error of refusal, for the purpose of having you choose to be obedient (stop sinning)??
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Kalahari View Post
    Pro 28:11 Rich people always think they are wise, but a poor person who has insight into character knows better.
    Please expound how you think this relates to Luke 9:62.
    In fact, please tell me first what you think Luke 9:62 even means according to your belief.
    "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind.This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (Matthew 22:37-39).

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    Re: Is eternal security or a sin and still saved belief Biblical - Pt 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Jason0047 View Post
    I already told others repeatedly here that abiding in grievous unrepentant sin is separation from God and it equates with spiritual death. Only repentance (seeking the Lord Jesus's forgiveness by prayer) can restore a person back to salvation again. James 5:19-20 and the Parable of the Prodigal Son (Luke 15) teaches that a believer can go from a saved state, to an unsaved state, and then become saved again. The father said that his son was "dead" and was "alive again" two times. He said he was "lost" and now he is "found." This is speaking in spiritual terms of course. For it would make very little sense if it was not talking about salvation. The previous two parables on repentance makes that even more clear.
    While this is a response, I can't discern an answer that addresses the question that informs me whether or not God was with you when you were sinning and He was the one who helped you turn from that sin, SO...

    Was God still with you when you began to willfully sin and He helped you to turn back from that sin?
    Slug1--out

    ~Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men,~

    ~Honestly, the pain of persecution lets you KNOW you are still alive... IN Christ!~

    ~Colossians 1:28 Him we preach, warning every man and teaching every man in all wisdom, that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.~


    ~"In the turmoil of any chaos, all it takes is that whisper that is heard like thunder over all the noise and the chaos seems to go away, focus returns and we are comforted in knowing that God has listened to our cry for help."~


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