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Thread: Judah and Israel

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    Judah and Israel

    The Old Testament prophets always carefully delineate between the House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes*.
    They separated into these two nations, soon after Solomon’s reign ended. God said that this separation was part of His plan. 1 Kings 12:24
    Although some from the Northern tribes did escape the Assyrian exile by coming down and joining with Judah, the main body of Israel were taken away to the Caucasus region. When the Assyrian Kingdom declined and fell, they decided to migrate and find better lands to live in. There is plenty of archaeological evidence of their travels; Jeremiah 31:21 speaks of the cairns or dolmens that they built to mark their way.
    Their descendants remain scattered among the nations, now an uncountable number of peoples that have received the blessings promised to them by Jacob, Genesis 49 and by Moses; Deuteronomy 33. In particular, Ephraim, who became the leading tribe of the House of Israel, received the blessing of Jacob, Genesis 48:17-19, of his descendants becoming a group of nations, powerful and prosperous. Only the British Commonwealth fits this description.

    That Israel and Judah have not rejoined as yet, is proven by the great chapter of Ezekiel 37:
    Firstly, the dry bones are the whole Israelite people; verse 11 The Lord will put His Spirit into them and they will come alive spiritually, then they will be settled into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:12-14

    Then the two sticks, that clearly show how the two Houses are both Israelites, are rejoined as one in God’s hand, to become one nation in the Land; the mountains of Israel. verse 22 This will be the nation of Beulah, as Isaiah 62:1-5 prophesies.
    God promises to make a Covenant with them; of peace and prosperity and His Sanctuary [Temple] will be in the midst of them. He says: then they will know that I am their God. This statement is in many of Ezekiel’s prophesies and is proof that they will all happen before Jesus visibly Returns for His Millennial reign.

    This Covenant is the one prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34 and reiterated in Hebrews 8:10-11 and we await, with great anticipation the time of its implementation.

    * Unfortunately, Paul in the New Testament is not so careful with ‘Israel’ and it requires discernment to be sure of when he is meaning Judah, the Jews or all Israel, by descent or by grafting in.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    It is fantasy history which claims the British Commonwealth is from the Northern Kingdom.
    Note that the Scots, Irish and Welsh are Celtic stock who existed before Israel had been exiled. They had invade Rome around 390 BC from France.
    The English meanwhile descend mainly from Germanic stock and Mayne Geoffrey of Monmouth may help you here. Though in the Enlightenment his work was derided.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is fantasy history which claims the British Commonwealth is from the Northern Kingdom.
    Note that the Scots, Irish and Welsh are Celtic stock who existed before Israel had been exiled. They had invade Rome around 390 BC from France.
    The English meanwhile descend mainly from Germanic stock and Mayne Geoffrey of Monmouth may help you here. Though in the Enlightenment his work was derided.
    Yes, that's what I've long understood, that the original British were Celtic peoples, and that later migrations brought in a Germanic vein, or Anglo-Saxons. Anglo-Israeli theories I discount, because there is no basis in terms of either racial or ethnic characteristics. What then is the value of this?

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    But most of what gets claimed about Judah and Israel by modern critics is based on folklore and internet nonsense. And it is a waste of time doing some sort of migration tracking on who is who, conspiracy theories, and other stuff that proves some folks should quit living in their mother's basement and get a life.

    And it avoids a bunch of scripture references that show many from the Northern Kingdom migrated south and joined with Judah. Some before the Assyrians overtook the Northern Kingdom, and some after. Several chapters in II Kings mentions these migrations.

    When Ezra was bringing a remnant back to the Land from Babylon, he called them Judah 8 times and all Israel 40 times.

    When Nehemiah brought another group, he called them Judah 11 times and all Israel 22 times.

    For one, in the NT, Anna is from the tribe of Asher, one of those so-called "lost tribes". Zechariah, John the Baptist's daddy, is of the tribe of Levi. Yeshua is of the tribe of Judah. Paul is of the tribe of Benjamin. Well... there are 4 tribes.

    80% of the Jewish population of modern Israel when it was formed in 1948 were Sabras.... long time generational Jewish inhabitants of the Land dating back to Ancient Israel. There has always been major Jewish communities in the Land from the days of the Roman occupation. Many Jews were slaughtered in the various Crusades of the middle ages. The first migrations after Israel was formed were from Syria and Iraq (several hundred thousand) ...... ancient Babylon.... The descendants of the captivity had come home finally.

    So maybe Paul knew exactly what he was talking about. Especially in light of he was an Apostle and what Ezra and Nehemiah had to say about it. And yet some 20th or 21st century critic says different. I think I know who I will put my money on.

    Did some travel elsewhere? Of course. But that again doesn't negate the scripture accounts.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    It seems to me that people here are unable to understand that it is impossible for Judah and Israel to have rejoined yet.
    Ezekiel 37 tells about the blessings and promises of God to be bestowed upon them at the time of rejoining. Its obviously a end times event.

    To deny the continued existence of the ten Northern tribes, is to deny archaeological, historical, heraldic and linguistic facts.
    God does have a secret, He has kept the House of Israel under wraps; lost to general knowledge and called by other names. But it is those people, now an uncountable multitude, who have accepted Christianity!
    THAT shows the amazing success of God's plan, His original chosen people, who were thrown out of the holy Land because of their sins and then scattered around the world, are the people who have fulfilled Moses' prophecy of Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and Solomons prayer of how they would turn back to God. 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

    They will rejoin with the remnant of the Jewish people; the few survivors of the Lord's Day of wrath, that will clear and cleanse the holy Land for them. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 66:15-21

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, that's what I've long understood, that the original British were Celtic peoples, and that later migrations brought in a Germanic vein, or Anglo-Saxons. Anglo-Israeli theories I discount, because there is no basis in terms of either racial or ethnic characteristics. What then is the value of this?
    Yes Randyk, there is no value in arguing over concepts that neither of us can finally prove.
    However, I would point out that brit-ish - having the Hebrew meaning of Covenant people and also Saxon likely derived from Isaac's sons, even Anglo can be traced to ageil; meaning bull in Hebrew, that these are not all just coincidence's.

    The thing is, these peoples all did migrate from somewhere and they are called Caucasian's! Really; you cannot just dismiss the possibility/probability of their origins.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Well, coincidences may or may not be the case, but the scripture is the final authority. I have no doubt that some did migrate. That happens with every nation that falls. But just because some did, does not make a case that goes around now and then for some sort of mass migration that morphed into some Northern European gig.

    2 Chronicles 11:13-17 with special emphasis on verses 16-17...

    2 Chronicles 11:16-17 (NKJV) And after the Levites left, those from all the tribes of Israel, such as set their heart to seek the Lord God of Israel, came to Jerusalem to sacrifice to the Lord God of their fathers. 17 So they strengthened the kingdom of Judah, and made Rehoboam the son of Solomon strong for three years, because they walked in the way of David and Solomon for three years.

    Peter, in Acts 2 calls those he is talking to both Judah and Israel.

    Under the reign of King Asa, another group migrated to the south.....

    2 Chronicles 15:9 (NKJV) Then he gathered all Judah and Benjamin, and those who dwelt with them from Ephraim, Manasseh, and Simeon, for they came over to him in great numbers from Israel when they saw that the Lord his God was with him.

    Under King Hezekiah, yet another group moved to the southern kingdom....

    2 Chronicles 30:11 (NKJV) Nevertheless some from Asher, Manasseh, and Zebulun humbled themselves and came to Jerusalem.

    And still another group during the reign of King Josiah......

    2 Chronicles 34:9 (NKJV) When they came to Hilkiah the high priest, they delivered the money that was brought into the house of God, which the Levites who kept the doors had gathered from the hand of Manasseh and Ephraim, from all the remnant of Israel, from all Judah and Benjamin, and which they had brought back to Jerusalem.

    Not all from the Northern Kingdom were deported. Archaeologists have uncovered annals of the Assyrian Sargon, in which he tells that he carried away only 27,290 people and 50 chariots (Biblical Archaeology, VI, 1943, page 58). Population estimates of the Northern Kingdom at that time range from 400,000 to 500,000; less than 1/20th were deported-- mostly the leadership from the capital, Samaria. The rest of theNorthern Kingdom were taken by Assyria as slaves, which were a valuable commodity. (It is difficult to view the Assyrians as careless enough to let their captives wander off to Europe.)

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It seems to me that people here are unable to understand that it is impossible for Judah and Israel to have rejoined yet.
    Ezekiel 37 tells about the blessings and promises of God to be bestowed upon them at the time of rejoining. Its obviously a end times event.

    To deny the continued existence of the ten Northern tribes, is to deny archaeological, historical, heraldic and linguistic facts.
    When you provide a single fact, then we could deal with it.
    Did ALL the 10 tribes disappear? No.
    Was a remnant of all 10 to be found in the Southern Kingdom? Yes, enough for them to still exist 700 years later.
    Those who were sent far afield did they remain of Israel, or did they intermarry?

    God does have a secret, He has kept the House of Israel under wraps; lost to general knowledge and called by other names. But it is those people, now an uncountable multitude, who have accepted Christianity!
    THAT shows the amazing success of God's plan, His original chosen people, who were thrown out of the holy Land because of their sins and then scattered around the world, are the people who have fulfilled Moses' prophecy of Deuteronomy 30:1-10 and Solomons prayer of how they would turn back to God. 2 Chronicles 6:36-39

    They will rejoin with the remnant of the Jewish people; the few survivors of the Lord's Day of wrath, that will clear and cleanse the holy Land for them. Deuteronomy 32:34-43, Isaiah 66:15-21
    Incorrect, the House of Israel has not been lost.
    Have they been dispersed? Well yes, along with those of the House of Judah.
    Have they turned back to God? Well not many.
    Your claims are based on speculation of the worst sort.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes Randyk, there is no value in arguing over concepts that neither of us can finally prove.
    However, I would point out that brit-ish - having the Hebrew meaning of Covenant people and also Saxon likely derived from Isaac's sons, even Anglo can be traced to ageil; meaning bull in Hebrew, that these are not all just coincidence's.

    The thing is, these peoples all did migrate from somewhere and they are called Caucasian's! Really; you cannot just dismiss the possibility/probability of their origins.
    Wow, do you know of the origin of the word British? Are you really claiming it is a Hebrew word?
    So which of Isaac's sons was called Sax?
    And do you know who called the angles angels? (Not ageil by the way).
    It is in fact all bull that the Germans, or the British are the 10 lost tribes.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    What if WE are Israelites?
    Careful study of Scripture shows that the Lord is a God of order and in His plan for the redemption of His creation, He chose the Israelite peoples. At this stage of history, only He knows exactly who they are. Amos 9:9 The Lord made unconditional promises to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that their descendants would be “great nations, as many as the sands of the sea, to be His witnesses and be a light to the nations.” Isaiah 43:10
    Only the House of Judah [the Jews] are known at present, the other 10 tribes are lost to general knowledge, as God planned it. All twelve tribes will experience the great awakening as foretold by the prophets. Their blindness will pass away in the spiritual light that will come upon them regarding their identity and their responsibilities as the chosen people of God. Ezekiel 37:14, Romans 9:24-26, 1 Peter 2:9-10
    Suppose you are an Israelite? What of it? If I am saved, what difference will it make?
    The Scriptures speak of far more than the salvation of the individual. Those who accept the free gift of salvation also have the responsibility of spreading the Gospel [good news] of the coming Kingdom of God. This is being done now and will be done on a greater scale by His people when they go back into the Promised Land. Ezekiel 39:27, Revelation 7:1-14

    The Bible presents us with a great volume of information, regarding the origins and history of the various races of mankind, the division of peoples into Israelite [Christian] and heathen [non Christian] nations. The detailed prophesies of what will happen, then His people’s work for the period leading up to the Return of Jesus and His Millennium Kingdom. Isaiah 49:8
    The truth about the Lord’s plan for all who qualify to be Israelite’s is a thread which runs through the whole Bible, every type, promise, Covenant, and act of God, points to the final fulfilment of His planned establishment of a people, all faithful Christian believers who will live in His Land, as He originally intended. Isaiah 62:1-5, Amos 9:13-15 His witnesses, Isaiah 43:10 and the Light to the nations, Isaiah 49:8

    Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after the right, all who seek the Lord: consider the Rock from which you were hewn, the quarry from which you came. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah who gave you birth, when I called him, he was but one. I blessed him and made him many.

    Romans 4:23-24 The words “counted to Abraham as righteousness” apply not only to Abraham, but also to us: our faith, too, is to be counted: our faith in Jesus, raised to life for our justification.

    When we go through Scripture and see the many prophecies about the judgement of the nations and the blessings promised to God’s holy people, who are now every faithful Christian believer: from every race nation and language, we see that most are for the “last days”, that is: the short period leading up to the end of this age and before the commencement of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus. That is for us, upon whom, as Paul says: the end of the age has come.
    It is evident that God wants us to be aware of coming events, He sent prophet after prophet, telling in great detail how His plans will unfold. The signs of our times, confirm that their fulfilment is imminent.
    The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His people into their heritage of the holy Land.
    Zechariah 8:7

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The thing is, these peoples all did migrate from somewhere and they are called Caucasian's! Really; you cannot just dismiss the possibility/probability of their origins.
    Genetic studies performed on middle eastern Jews (Sepahrdi or Mizrachi) have shown that the ethnic group closest to them genetically is (wait for it...wait for it...) Ashkenazic Jews. And the group closest to both of them, genetically, are the Kurds: another middle eastern, non Arabic people. If I was going to guess which ethnic group was the "lost ten tribes", it would be the Kurds. Not the "Brit-ish" or the "Dan-ish" (Men from Dan? ) This is not serious analysis.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Lord, in His mercy, has given us warning of imminent world changing and shocking happenings. We should be aware of His plans – be ready to rejoice and praise Him for the redemption and restoration of all His people into their heritage of the holy Land.
    Zechariah 8:7
    Amen. Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

    And let's not forget Isaiah 49: And Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me." Shall a woman forget her sucking child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you...For your ruins and your desolate places and your land that has been destroyed, for now you shall be crowded by the inhabitants, and those who would destroy you shall be far away....So said the Lord God, "Behold I will raise My hand to the nations, and to the peoples will I raise My standard, and they shall bring your sons in their armpits, and your daughters shall be borne on their shoulders. And kings shall be your nursing fathers and their princesses your wet nurses; they shall prostrate themselves to you with their face on the ground, and they shall lick the dust of your feet, and you shall know that I am the Lord, for those who wait for Me shall not be ashamed.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Amen. Zechariah 8:23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten people from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.'"

    And let's not forget Isaiah 49: And Zion said, "The Lord has forsaken me, and the Lord has forgotten me." Shall a woman forget her sucking child, from having mercy on the child of her womb? These too shall forget, but I will not forget you...For your ruins and your desolate places and your land that has been destroyed, for now you shall be crowded by the inhabitants, and those who would destroy you shall be far away....So said the Lord God, "Behold I will raise My hand to the nations, and to the peoples will I raise My standard, and they shall bring your sons in their armpits, and your daughters shall be borne on their shoulders. And kings shall be your nursing fathers and their princesses your wet nurses; they shall prostrate themselves to you with their face on the ground, and they shall lick the dust of your feet, and you shall know that I am the Lord, for those who wait for Me shall not be ashamed.
    Do you see, Fenris, why it is so important that God, at some point in history, decided to expand His outreach to other nations, besides Israel? People in all nations desperately want to embrace biblical promises as though made to *them!* They're even willing to become pseudo-Jews to obtain this!

    I think Christians, through their own religion, don't have to become Jews, racially or ethnically. We only have to embrace one Jew--Jesus. Then we obtain all of the promises through him!

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Do you see, Fenris, why it is so important that God, at some point in history, decided to expand His outreach to other nations, besides Israel? People in all nations desperately want to embrace biblical promises as though made to *them!* They're even willing to become pseudo-Jews to obtain this!
    Nobody's stopping you from converting. Ruth did, and merited being the ancestor of king David and ultimately the messiah.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Old Testament prophets always carefully delineate between the House of Judah, the tribes of Judah and Benjamin and the House of Israel, the ten Northern tribes*.
    They separated into these two nations, soon after Solomon’s reign ended. God said that this separation was part of His plan. 1 Kings 12:24
    Although some from the Northern tribes did escape the Assyrian exile by coming down and joining with Judah, the main body of Israel were taken away to the Caucasus region. When the Assyrian Kingdom declined and fell, they decided to migrate and find better lands to live in. There is plenty of archaeological evidence of their travels; Jeremiah 31:21 speaks of the cairns or dolmens that they built to mark their way.
    Their descendants remain scattered among the nations, now an uncountable number of peoples that have received the blessings promised to them by Jacob, Genesis 49 and by Moses; Deuteronomy 33. In particular, Ephraim, who became the leading tribe of the House of Israel, received the blessing of Jacob, Genesis 48:17-19, of his descendants becoming a group of nations, powerful and prosperous. Only the British Commonwealth fits this description.

    That Israel and Judah have not rejoined as yet, is proven by the great chapter of Ezekiel 37:
    Firstly, the dry bones are the whole Israelite people; verse 11 The Lord will put His Spirit into them and they will come alive spiritually, then they will be settled into all of the holy Land. Ezekiel 37:12-14

    Then the two sticks, that clearly show how the two Houses are both Israelites, are rejoined as one in God’s hand, to become one nation in the Land; the mountains of Israel. verse 22 This will be the nation of Beulah, as Isaiah 62:1-5 prophesies.
    God promises to make a Covenant with them; of peace and prosperity and His Sanctuary [Temple] will be in the midst of them. He says: then they will know that I am their God. This statement is in many of Ezekiel’s prophesies and is proof that they will all happen before Jesus visibly Returns for His Millennial reign.

    This Covenant is the one prophesied by Jeremiah 31:31-34 and reiterated in Hebrews 8:10-11 and we await, with great anticipation the time of its implementation.

    * Unfortunately, Paul in the New Testament is not so careful with ‘Israel’ and it requires discernment to be sure of when he is meaning Judah, the Jews or all Israel, by descent or by grafting in.
    1. Ezekiel 37:12-14 dry bone prophecy was fulfilled in 1948 with the establishment of the modern Jewish state. It is incorrect to claim it is still future.
    2. Jere 31:31-34 has been fulfilled when Jesus died on the cross and made the old covenant obsolete.
    3. As prophecied, the New Covenant made in the blood of Jesus is written in our hearts and made possible by faith in Christ.

    During the Last Supper with his disciples, Jesus said: “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood” (Luke 22:20) Therefore, it is errant to claim that the covenant is still future. A diligent study of Hebrews shows that the writer presented a balanced view of the work Jesus did. It is easy to latch onto Heb 8:10-11 and claim that the new covenant is still future but this is debunked with the following verse:

    Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
    Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.

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