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Thread: Judah and Israel

  1. #91
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Amos 2:4-5 is simply a reconfirmation of Isaiah's prophecy that despite the great number of Israel, a few will be saved. I pointed out yesterday that those few will also be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So on this count, we agree.

    But you are wrong that the 2W will preach to the saved. Ever heard of the phrase "don't preach to the converted?". The proper sequence is that the 2W will preach to the Christ-rejecting Jews. This time will mark a great national revival of Israel as a great number (the elect) will suddenly embrace Christ and come to faith.

    It beats imagination for someone who is a *writer of Christian theology* to reject the end-times national Jewish redemption. If I may ask, do you reckon is the "remnant"? The handful of Messianic Jews today?
    As I have said, the Jewish people face Judgement and punishment. Many prophesies attest to that; Ezekiel 21:1-7 even says that the righteous and wicked alike will be done away with. It is a false teaching to say there will be a general Jewish redemption. This is nowhere stated in the Bible.

    Re the Two Witnesses; they will preach to those Christians who will remain in the holy Land. Daniel 11:32, those who violate the Covenant, and Revelation 12:17 those not taken to the place of safety.

    Re what I do; I do not write Christian theology. My task is to point out what the Bible prophets actually wrote.
    Most Christians have very little knowledge of the Prophetic Word and rely on what their pastors teach. This has resulted in much confusion and in many being deceived. If what I post from scripture conflicts with what you have been taught, then who is right? Your Pastor or teacher, or the Bible truth?

  2. #92
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Jesus did not fail in His mission. The simple fact is that the majority of Christians today are the descendants of the ten tribes and are the people who have fulfilled Solomon's prayer of 2 Chronicles 6:36-39
    This again? There's not a shred of evidence for it.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  3. #93
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As I have said, the Jewish people face Judgement and punishment. Many prophesies attest to that; Ezekiel 21:1-7 even says that the righteous and wicked alike will be done away with. It is a false teaching to say there will be a general Jewish redemption. This is nowhere stated in the Bible.
    There's plenty. Deuteronomy 30, Ezekiel 37, large portions of the text from Isaiah 40 through 66...

    Your issue is that you ignore the plain text and find other meanings in it. But the plain text clearly supports the idea of generalized Jewish redemption, as in being reconciled with God and returned to the land of Israel.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #94
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    As I have said, the Jewish people face Judgement and punishment. Many prophesies attest to that; Ezekiel 21:1-7 even says that the righteous and wicked alike will be done away with. It is a false teaching to say there will be a general Jewish redemption. This is nowhere stated in the Bible.

    Re the Two Witnesses; they will preach to those Christians who will remain in the holy Land. Daniel 11:32, those who violate the Covenant, and Revelation 12:17 those not taken to the place of safety.

    Re what I do; I do not write Christian theology. My task is to point out what the Bible prophets actually wrote.
    Most Christians have very little knowledge of the Prophetic Word and rely on what their pastors teach. This has resulted in much confusion and in many being deceived. If what I post from scripture conflicts with what you have been taught, then who is right? Your Pastor or teacher, or the Bible truth?
    You don't understand the Bible; you read the scriptures but you don't allow the Holy Spirit to give you discernment. The Jews have suffered untold judgment and persecution since Jesus warned of the destruction of their temple from 70AD till today. But it seems that's not enough for you. Fortunately, God is not a man!

    You twist scriptures to give an interpretation that is not the true intent of the passage. For example, Dan 11:32 was fulfilled by Antiochus IV, not that you know any better.

    Why would God send the Two Witnesses to preach to believing Christians? Even an unbeliever will tell you this doesn't make sense. Jesus said he was sent to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matt 15:24). God sends his Messengers to convert the lost and bring them back to him, ergo, the 2W will be sent to preach to primarily unbelieving Israel to accept Jesus. Although Gentiles willing to receive their Gospel will also benefit.

    I said in another post that you write "theology", it was a mistake. What I meant was that you write 'Christian articles' according to what you've said in the past. So my apologies. Brother Keraz, you have a good heart, but half of your interpretation of scripture is woefully wrong. As it stands, it's a case of the kettle calling the pot black since we all claim to be right. But the Lord knows who is right.

  5. #95
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Trivalee, Do you consider that the current citizens of the State of Israel are not deserving of any judgement and punishment?

    Re A4E, as I have said elsewhere, I know history quite well and in circa 167 BC he did desecrate the Temple. Who then is Jesus referring to? Matthew 24:15

    Re the 2 Witnesses. At the time of the Great Tribulation, the last 3.5 years before Jesus Returns, God holy people, Christians, will be in the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7. They divide into 2 groups; those who keep faithful to the Lord and those who violate the Covenant. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:14 & 17, Zechariah 14:2 The faithful ones are taken to safety, while the others remain and the Witnesses will correct them of their error.

    Re my articles: I write what the Bible tells us, not anyone's interpretation, all I do is try to make it more easily understood. But because it conflicts with what you have been taught, you accuse me of error.
    I do not see any ambiguity in Scripture, but we have been warned that teachers like ravening wolves will come and will use some verses to promote false theories and doctrines. This is very apparent with the 'rapture to heaven' theory. The fact of how there is no consensus of when such a thing could happen, shows its deceptive origin.
    YES, the Lord knows what is right! I am just His humble servant, pointing out to all who will listen, the truths of His Word.

  6. #96
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Trivalee, Do you consider that the current citizens of the State of Israel are not deserving of any judgement and punishment?
    The current citizens of Israel today comprises of Judaic Jews as the majority, Messianics, Christians, atheists, Arabs and everything else thrown into the mix. The genuinely in Christ (Messianics and Christians) will be saved like you and I. In the end times, when God focuses his attention on Israel by sending the two witnesses, those in Judaism open to the Gospel will be saved as part of the elect.

    However, the intransigent will be destroyed either by the AC or by the Jesus himself (wrath of the Lamb). The same goes for the others listed above, if they receive Christ, they will escape damnation, if not...hell awaits them.

    Re A4E, as I have said elsewhere, I know history quite well and in circa 167 BC he did desecrate the Temple. Who then is Jesus referring to? Matthew 24:15
    Antiochus IV was an antitype of the future Antichrist. His desecration of the temple set an image of Zeus (an abomination that caused desolation to the Jews of his day), this was a precedent. Jesus warned the Jews in (Matt 24:15) to flee when they see the AoD prophecied by Daniel the prophet. This prophecy continues to cause turmoil among believers as it has become a playfield where every interpretation is projected and played out.

    Some erroneously claim it was fulfilled in 70AD, but how can that be? Daniel prophesied that the temple would be desecrated and the daily sacrifice, taken away for 2300 days and the temple shall thereafter be cleansed again (Dan 8:14). A4E fulfilled this and the Jews celebrate the cleansing of the temple yearly with the Feast of Hannuka.

    The disciples and by implication, every Jew at the time of the OD up to the end of the world has heard or read about A4E's AoD. So when Jesus told them "when you shall, therefore, see the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel the prophet STAND in the holy place (whoso reads let him understand)". What is inferred is that since there is a precedent, the Jews are expected to recognise the AoD when they see it.

    Furthermore, notice the peculiar language? "Stand in the holy place" - the proponents of 70AD claim that Roman soldiers milling around and trampling the temple equals to "stand" in the holy place. But in truth, it refers to an inordinate object (idol) placed in the temple.

    I've given background and will now answer who Jesus was referring to in Matt 24:15.

    Jesus was referring to the END-TIMES AoD according to Dan 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    So Jesus was referring to the Jews alive in the end-times. I say the Jews because according to 2 Thess 2:4, the AC will desecrate the temple and since Christians have no use of the temple, only the Jews will actually see him do it and the news will then filter down to all, Christians, etc.

  7. #97
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Re the 2 Witnesses. At the time of the Great Tribulation, the last 3.5 years before Jesus Returns, God holy people, Christians, will be in the holy Land. Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7. They divide into 2 groups; those who keep faithful to the Lord and those who violate the Covenant. Daniel 11:32, Revelation 12:14 & 17, Zechariah 14:2 The faithful ones are taken to safety, while the others remain and the Witnesses will correct them of their error.
    The error of your position is your claim that Christians (both good and bad) will up sticks and relocate to the holy land. Since we are talking literal and not symbolic here, do you by any chance know the size of the holy land? Do you realise that if every Jew in the diaspora returns to Jerusalem, they will struggle to find accommodation? And Christians all over the world outnumber the population of Jews almost 10 to 1? Can't you see how untenable your argument is?

    I find your attempt to correct your previous errors rather amusing But even then, because you're making it up as you go, there are still holes in your case. I see you made no provision for the Jews in your idea of what happens at the time of the 2W and I wonder why? Instead, you claim that Christians will be divided into 2 categories. The one part (the faithful) taken to safety while the nominal pretenders are supposedly left behind to be corrected by the two witnesses. Only this is as ludicrous an explanation of the vents as they come.

    Re my articles: I write what the Bible tells us, not anyone's interpretation, all I do is try to make it more easily understood. But because it conflicts with what you have been taught, you accuse me of error.
    I do not see any ambiguity in Scripture, but we have been warned that teachers like ravening wolves will come and will use some verses to promote false theories and doctrines. This is very apparent with the 'rapture to heaven' theory. The fact of how there is no consensus of when such a thing could happen, shows its deceptive origin.
    YES, the Lord knows what is right! I am just His humble servant, pointing out to all who will listen, the truths of His Word.
    Isn't it superfluous to continue to reiterate what has been said over and over again? You claim to interpret scripture to make it easily understood - but you confuse your readers more like since your "interpretations" invariably are far removed from what scripture actually says. My fear is that the unlearned might be swept along with your false interpretation and mistake it for truth.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The error of your position is your claim that Christians (both good and bad) will up sticks and relocate to the holy land. Since we are talking literal and not symbolic here, do you by any chance know the size of the holy land? Do you realise that if every Jew in the diaspora returns to Jerusalem, they will struggle to find accommodation? And Christians all over the world outnumber the population of Jews almost 10 to 1? Can't you see how untenable your argument is?

    I find your attempt to correct your previous errors rather amusing But even then, because you're making it up as you go, there are still holes in your case. I see you made no provision for the Jews in your idea of what happens at the time of the 2W and I wonder why? Instead, you claim that Christians will be divided into 2 categories. The one part (the faithful) taken to safety while the nominal pretenders are supposedly left behind to be corrected by the two witnesses. Only this is as ludicrous an explanation of the vents as they come.
    It is your beliefs that I find astounding; in your lack of understanding of what God really wants and how He will achieve it.

    How big is the holy Land? We are told in Genesis 15:18. Big enough to accommodate the 'vast multitude' of born again Christians who will live there. I have posted many prophesies that plainly state this fact. That you can't see it, is due to blindness for having believed lies. Isaiah 29:9-12

    The Jews will be there at the time of the two Witnesses, but only as a remnant. Just the few Messianic Christian Jews, who were saved during the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 6:11-14 They join their Christian brethren, as they all become the people who will display God's glory in His Land. Zechariah 9:16

    You say that God's people will have no use for a Temple. Again you display a lack of even reading what the Bible prophets have told us. Look at and get your head around: Isaiah 56:1-8, Zechariah 6:15 & 13:20-21, +

  9. #99
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    It is your beliefs that I find astounding; in your lack of understanding of what God really wants and how He will achieve it.

    How big is the holy Land? We are told in Genesis 15:18. Big enough to accommodate the 'vast multitude' of born again Christians who will live there. I have posted many prophesies that plainly state this fact. That you can't see it, is due to blindness for having believed lies. Isaiah 29:9-12

    The Jews will be there at the time of the two Witnesses, but only as a remnant. Just the few Messianic Christian Jews, who were saved during the Lord's Day of wrath. Isaiah 6:11-14 They join their Christian brethren, as they all become the people who will display God's glory in His Land. Zechariah 9:16

    You say that God's people will have no use for a Temple. Again you display a lack of even reading what the Bible prophets have told us. Look at and get your head around: Isaiah 56:1-8, Zechariah 6:15 & 13:20-21, +
    You are conflating 2 different timescales as one; namely the tribulation period and the millennium.
    The time of the 2W is before the GT which starts after their death. They (2W) will convert many unbelieving Jews to Christ. The witnesses will bring to pass the complete "remnant" of Israel in their time.

    By the time the Lord unleashes his wrath on the earth, the Jewish remnant would already be in safety in the wilderness. And the gathering together of ALL God's people in the holy land will be when Messiah returns. But get this, every saved believer would have received immortality at that point.

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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You are conflating 2 different timescales as one; namely the tribulation period and the millennium.
    The time of the 2W is before the GT which starts after their death. They (2W) will convert many unbelieving Jews to Christ. The witnesses will bring to pass the complete "remnant" of Israel in their time.

    By the time the Lord unleashes his wrath on the earth, the Jewish remnant would already be in safety in the wilderness. And the gathering together of ALL God's people in the holy land will be when Messiah returns. But get this, every saved believer would have received immortality at that point.
    The Prophetic Word is clear; all saved believers will go to live in all of the holy Land BEFORE the Return of Jesus. They are seen there in Ezekiel 38, living in peace and prosperity, as God saves them from attack. Joel 2:20 We see them again in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, as the leader of the One World Govt, the Anti-Christ; breaks his peace treaty with them.

    You are incorrect in thinking the two Witnesses preach before the Great Trib. As the AC makes a 7 year peace treaty with the new nation of Beulah, the first half is peaceful, but he invades and conquers then at the mid point. Daniel 11:27 His action of desecrating the Temple triggers the GT, that will last for the 3 1/2 years until the Return. Revelation 13:5-8 THAT is the time the Gentiles will trample the holy city and I will give My two witnesses authority to prophecy, dressed in sackcloth, for those 1260 days. Revelation 11:2-3

    As for the Christian Jews going out of Jerusalem to safety, that happened in 70 AD.

    Immortality then? You really; seriously are deceived. That cannot happen until the Book of Life is opened at the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

    Quite a list of your beliefs that are wrong. Time to really study and understand what God plans for His people!

  11. #101
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Prophetic Word is clear; all saved believers will go to live in all of the holy Land BEFORE the Return of Jesus. They are seen there in Ezekiel 38, living in peace and prosperity, as God saves them from attack. Joel 2:20 We see them again in Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:7, as the leader of the One World Govt, the Anti-Christ; breaks his peace treaty with them.

    You are incorrect in thinking the two Witnesses preach before the Great Trib. As the AC makes a 7 year peace treaty with the new nation of Beulah, the first half is peaceful, but he invades and conquers then at the mid point. Daniel 11:27 His action of desecrating the Temple triggers the GT, that will last for the 3 1/2 years until the Return. Revelation 13:5-8 THAT is the time the Gentiles will trample the holy city and I will give My two witnesses authority to prophecy, dressed in sackcloth, for those 1260 days. Revelation 11:2-3

    As for the Christian Jews going out of Jerusalem to safety, that happened in 70 AD.

    Immortality then? You really; seriously are deceived. That cannot happen until the Book of Life is opened at the GWT Judgement, after the Millennium.

    Quite a list of your beliefs that are wrong. Time to really study and understand what God plans for His people!
    OK. if you say so. I've learned to quit when nothing more can be gained.
    Remain blessed.

  12. #102
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    OK. if you say so. I've learned to quit when nothing more can be gained.
    Remain blessed.
    What can be gained, is a true understanding of what God plans for His people.
    But for you to pull back from promoting theories and doctrines that lack scriptural support, is very wise of you because we know from James 3:1, that those who teach will face a more severe Judgement.

  13. #103
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    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What can be gained, is a true understanding of what God plans for His people.
    But for you to pull back from promoting theories and doctrines that lack scriptural support, is very wise of you because we know from James 3:1, that those who teach will face a more severe Judgement.
    And what reckon ye, shall be the fate of the sanctimonious who claim to know it all but are misguided?

  14. #104

    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Amos 2:4-5 is simply a reconfirmation of Isaiah's prophecy that despite the great number of Israel, a few will be saved. I pointed out yesterday that those few will also be saved by faith in Jesus Christ. So on this count, we agree.

    But you are wrong that the 2W will preach to the saved. Ever heard of the phrase "don't preach to the converted?". The proper sequence is that the 2W will preach to the Christ-rejecting Jews. This time will mark a great national revival of Israel as a great number (the elect) will suddenly embrace Christ and come to faith.

    It beats imagination for someone who is a *writer of Christian theology* to reject the end-times national Jewish redemption. If I may ask, do you reckon is the "remnant"? The handful of Messianic Jews today?
    No.
    Please educate you in all used terms and descriptions.
    "Jews" are in scripture by definition 'pharisees and Esau'.

    Then please post again.

  15. #105

    Re: Judah and Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by -loNe View Post
    "Jews" are in scripture by definition 'pharisees and Esau'.
    Was "Mordecai the Jew" a "pharisee"... or of "Esau"? Which?

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