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Thread: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

  1. #61

    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Actually I do see the "man-child" in Rev 12 as the Messiah. I don't see how it could be anything else, since it is a single child?



    If I'm consistent, perhaps I have to view Isa 66.7 as the birth of Christ. Perhaps the birth of Christ is somehow related to the Christian birth of Israel, as a nation, at the end of the age?



    Here, the attempted Christian birth of national Israel at the time of Christ fails, and is being compared to a failed "child birth." Jesus as much said the same when he described the coming judgment of Israel in 70 AD as "birth pains" that actually constitute a failed birth. Instead of national salvation Israel's temple would be destroyed, its capital city desolated, and its people sent packing into the nations for thousands of years.



    I do not see the 70th Week of Daniel as having to do with "the time of Jacob's trouble." Rather, it has to do with the time in which Messiah is cut off, after which the city and the sanctuary are desolated (in the generation of Messiah's death).

    The "time of Jacob's trouble" appears to have begun with the Babylonian Captivity, and continues on and through the birth of Messiah, his rejection, and the Jewish Diaspora of the NT period. In other words, the "time of Jacob's trouble" includes the Babylonian Captivity and the entire NT period of Jewish wandering.



    I do think there is a connection between Christ's birth and resurrection in the ancient Roman Empire, and the future salvation of national Israel, including an impossible resurrection deliverance. It must mean, I think, that Christian salvation comes to bear upon Israel in the last days, bringing them into a specifically Christian salvation.

    And for the Church, we are the ones who will actually demonstrate this victory over death, having lived for Christ in the present age.
    I believe Rev 12 is the birth of Jesus of Mary with birth pangs.

    Isa 66:7 is the birth of Christ from the dead without birth pangs. Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Literally birth pangs. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. That is also literally the beginning of the church. I believe God the Father began the building of the church by raising the Son of God from the dead. Behold I (God the Father) lay in Zion a stone ( the resurrected Son of God ) See Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.

  2. #62

    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Have you read Pesachup's post #39? It is interesting, he posits that the woman is Zion in contrast to your suggestion that it is the church. What do you say?
    except... I've never said, nor hinted, that "the woman" is "the Church". I don't believe that, and never suggested it.

    Perhaps you could re-read my post...[?] This time, read more carefully.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm certainly not going to say that Jesus Christ is "the woman!" Regardless, I do think, in context, that the "woman" must represent the source of the Church in the OT Scriptures, , just as Eve preceded all of the children of mankind. Since the woman is crowned with 12 stars, it seems apparent that this Woman is Israel with 12 tribes originally populating her land. Out of Israel came the original Church, which was Jewish.

    But I would like to forward a slightly different interpretation that just occurred to me. The idea of Zion bringing forth her children in a moment, without travail, may be an reference to the Church in Israel. After all, the travail of Israel has appeared to be a "miscarriage," labor pains taking place in the form of divine judgments against the land of Israel such as Jesus suggested in his Olivet Discourse. These birth pains did not give birth, just as the fig tree did not yield figs.

    Actually, Israel did give birth to some degree, because she gave birth to the Church in Israel. The original Church were Jews who believed in Jesus, forming the original Church. But Israel continued to suffer birth pains, which were in vain, because instead of giving birth to a spiritual nation the people lost their nation!

    So, my thought is that while Israel goes through a fruitless series of birth pains, in a kind of "false labor," she does succeed, somehow, in giving birth to an endtimes Church in the land of Israel. Christians who are spiritually born in Israel do not suffer labor pains like those who are unredeemed, and continue to be in travail. These may be those who are born by immediate conversion at the coming of Christ, and no longer have to go through a period of suffering, which is reserved only for those who are unredeemed. Just a thought!
    Isaiah 66:7-8 is surprisingly proving a hard knot to untie. There are so many *likely* interpretations, yet ALL of them cannot be true. I am encouraged that you continue to come up with even better ideas than previously posited.

    What do you mean by "end-time church"? If you are referring to those that come to faith before Jesus returns, surely their number can't be more than the sum total of Christians throughout the ages? If this is not what you meant, please clarify?

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    I believe Rev 12 is the birth of Jesus of Mary with birth pangs.

    Isa 66:7 is the birth of Christ from the dead without birth pangs. Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it. Literally birth pangs. Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. That is also literally the beginning of the church. I believe God the Father began the building of the church by raising the Son of God from the dead. Behold I (God the Father) lay in Zion a stone ( the resurrected Son of God ) See Acts 4:10,11 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
    You have fallen into the same error like many of us in the beginning. If Isaiah 66:7 is Christ rising spiritually from death, who then is the mother? Remember that vs 7-8 are together?

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    except... I've never said, nor hinted, that "the woman" is "the Church". I don't believe that, and never suggested it.

    Perhaps you could re-read my post...[?] This time, read more carefully.
    This is where you suggested that the woman might be the church.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Or is "the woman" in that context a corporate entity... thus might he (randyk) also consider that other figures in that passage (Rev12) might be as well (for he had mentioned that the one "the woman" had "brought forth" was shown to be a singular individual, according to how randyk was viewing it). My suggestion is and was, to consider the possibility (and in my view, likelihood) of "the male [G730]" (v.13 and all through the passage) also being/representing a corporate entity ("the Church which is His body" -- Eph1:20-23 "WHEN" [see "when"]).

  6. #66

    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    This is where you suggested that the woman might be the church.
    Read it slowly... I said, "My suggestion is and was, to consider the possibility (and in my view, likelihood) of "the male [G730]" (v.13 and all through the passage) also being/representing a corporate entity ("the Church which is His body" -- Eph1:20-23 "WHEN" [see "when"])."


    "the male [G730]" (v.13 etc)... not "the woman" (the woman also representing a corporate entity, however, per context).




    I've read ppl in the past who suggest "the woman" is "the Church," but I am NOT among those claiming this. You are misreading my post.

    I think you just read the part you put in red and ASSUMED your own thought [what you THOUGHT I was saying] into the previous part of the sentence that I actually wrote. Read what I actually wrote in the entire sentence.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Isaiah 66:7 Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child

    8 Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children.

    1. Is the "she" in v7 that gave birth to the man-child, Zion in v8 or is she different from Zion?
    2. If the man-child of v7 is Jesus, who are the children of Zion in v8?
    3. How are the two (she and Zion) connected?
    4. How come one gave birth to an individual (a man child) and the other *children*?
    5. What is the timeline of the birth of the man-child and the children being born?

  8. #68

    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You have fallen into the same error like many of us in the beginning. If Isaiah 66:7 is Christ rising spiritually from death, who then is the mother? Remember that vs 7-8 are together?
    V 7 is about a man child, singular, born without pain of giving birth. V 8 is about the earth (feminine) giving birth to a nation at one time. IE the kingdom of God.

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; <V7 Isa 66, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. <V8 Isa 66 Btw firstfruits in that 1 Cor 15:23 is also singular.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Will or has? Didn't that occur in 1948?
    Zion is a holy city, it is the mystery city representative of a righteous Israel in both faith and deed.

    1948 cannot be Zion giving birth, because the nation is a product of rebellion. A resurrection of the same state and spirit of rebellion from 67 AD.

    Zion's children are righteous.

    Babylon stands in her place.

    Zion suffers in the wilderness, cast out of society by the dragon and beast.

    Babylon gloats, while Zion crys out to God for water.

    The child of Zion will come forth instantly, in the resurrection, and the mystery of God will be revealed.

    DO NOT FALL FOR THE FAKE ISRAEL OF 1948 I URGE YOU.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Zion is a holy city, it is the mystery city representative of a righteous Israel in both faith and deed.

    1948 cannot be Zion giving birth, because the nation is a product of rebellion. A resurrection of the same state and spirit of rebellion from 67 AD.

    Zion's children are righteous.

    Babylon stands in her place.

    Zion suffers in the wilderness, cast out of society by the dragon and beast.

    Babylon gloats, while Zion crys out to God for water.

    The child of Zion will come forth instantly, in the resurrection, and the mystery of God will be revealed.

    DO NOT FALL FOR THE FAKE ISRAEL OF 1948 I URGE YOU.
    Zion giving birth represents the dry bones coming to life in EZ.

    You are absolutely correct about 1948 and fake israel.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Zion is a holy city, it is the mystery city representative of a righteous Israel in both faith and deed.

    1948 cannot be Zion giving birth, because the nation is a product of rebellion.
    Yes, a nation living the bible's values and keeping the biblical holidays as national holidays certainly is rebellion.
    DO NOT FALL FOR THE FAKE ISRAEL OF 1948 I URGE YOU.
    What does this mean, "fall for"?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by percho View Post
    V 7 is about a man child, singular, born without pain of giving birth. V 8 is about the earth (feminine) giving birth to a nation at one time. IE the kingdom of God.

    But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; <V7 Isa 66, afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. <V8 Isa 66 Btw firstfruits in that 1 Cor 15:23 is also singular.
    Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1 Cor 15:50
    Mmmmm, still thinking about it

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Zion is a holy city, it is the mystery city representative of a righteous Israel in both faith and deed.

    1948 cannot be Zion giving birth, because the nation is a product of rebellion. A resurrection of the same state and spirit of rebellion from 67 AD.

    Zion's children are righteous.

    Babylon stands in her place.

    Zion suffers in the wilderness, cast out of society by the dragon and beast.

    Babylon gloats, while Zion crys out to God for water.

    The child of Zion will come forth instantly, in the resurrection, and the mystery of God will be revealed.

    DO NOT FALL FOR THE FAKE ISRAEL OF 1948 I URGE YOU.
    Isn't it true that Zion has physical and spiritual connotations?
    Physically, Israel of old and today is still technically known as Zion.
    The spiritual Zion is from above, pure and righteous.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Zion giving birth represents the dry bones coming to life in EZ.

    You are absolutely correct about 1948 and fake Israel.
    I hesitate to accept the "fake" label against Israel of today. The way I see it, no nation (not even the western nations who are supposedly Christian) on earth today can sincerely claim to be completely righteous before God. So if every nation today has elements of sin and unbelief in their ranks, why is Israel different. Why are we too eager to place them on a pedestal and judge them harshly?

    Whether they are fake or not, we should remember Paul's warning to the Gentiles who take it upon themselves to be judge and jury over Israel. Finally, I will leave you all with the thought that it's among the so-called "fakes" that God will convert many to complete the number of the Jewish *elect* when he sends the Two Witnesses to Jerusalem before the GT begins.

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    Re: As soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I hesitate to accept the "fake" label against Israel of today.
    I find it mildly entertaining actually. I've said this before: In the middle ages, when the crusaders were looking for the descendants of the people who killed Jesus, they had no problem identifying the Jews. But now that there's a sovereign state of Israel, those people aren't descended from the land's original inhabitants. Or something like that.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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