I will give the Land to new owners

[Keraz]

No, I am not two faced. I just believe in treating the "ungodly," ie you, in a godly way. You think I'm agreeing with everything you say, but I do not. I honestly agree with some of your points. I do not agree with your attitude, which is caused by your beliefs. Your beliefs *are* in fact Replacement Theology, no matter how you try to square the circle. That is what you are, and that is what you do. You dismiss the Jewish People, and posit Christianity in their place.

Now this may sound Scriptural, but it isn't. Jews who were not Christians were still considered legitimate Jews by both Jesus and Paul. They are viewed as potential converts, and as a people who will one day return to their status as the People of God. Together with other Christian nations a Christian Israel will stand proud. Dismissing them *before* they turn Christian will never help. Bad attitude.

I consider you to be godly in your love for the Scriptures and for God Himself, but ungodly in the way you treat the Jewish People. I've long supported the Jewish People in their Zionist aspirations, and in their belief that they are still the "Chosen People." I just believe that they can join the community of "Chosen Nations" by adopting the Christian Religion.

I've supported the Jewish People since the early 70s, giving to Messianic Jews as early as perhaps 1972. I gave to Jews for Jesus for awhile, after hearing the Liberated Wailing Wall. I would strongly encourage you to amend your position to represent the true kindness of Christ, who died for all, including the Jewish People.

So you judge me as 'ungodly', because what I show from the scriptures doesn't conform to what you believe? John 15:16 and 1 Peter 1:9-10 say who the Chosen people are since Jesus came.
I do not 'dismiss' anyone at this time. All peoples still have the opportunity to get right with God, but we know from many Bible verses, that only a remnant of the Jews will do so.

My 'attitude', is that God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven..... Nothing more; nothing less.
We ARE told that God has made some people for destruction, Romans 9:22, and it is plain who those people are: ...those people who suppress the truth, Romans 1:18, and all who reject the Salvation freely offered by Jesus.


Your support of the Jewish State of Israel is misplaced. Their flag should indicate to you their Satanic roots. Revelation 2:9 & 3:9 The hexagram of Remphan and the sign for the House of Rothschild.
I have much better and more deserving places for my support.
You think the Jewish remnant will 'stand proud'? Ezekiel 16:63, says otherwise.

[randyk]

So you judge me as 'ungodly', because what I show from the scriptures doesn't conform to what you believe? John 15:16 and 1 Peter 1:9-10 say who the Chosen people are since Jesus came.
I do not 'dismiss' anyone at this time. All peoples still have the opportunity to get right with God, but we know from many Bible verses, that only a remnant of the Jews will do so.

Israel was the 1st Chosen Nation, and the only Chosen Nation, during the OT era. Then Christ came so that all nations could become Chosen Nations. Unfortunately, in rejecting Jesus Israel lost their "Chosen" status in a sense. It showed that those who in their hearts truly reject Jesus can never be legitimate Jews, and part of the Chosen Nation of Israel.


But this is a far cry from saying that *all Jews* have in their hearts rejected Jesus for all time. Many who initially rejected Jesus later came to accept him. And it is possible for Israel, as a nation, to accept Christianity as their national religion. I believe it will ultimately happen. So we should *not* deny Israel her call to be a Chosen Nation!


I see your attitude in rejecting Israel's right to become a Chosen Nation an ungodly thing not because you believe this. Rather, the ungodliness comes from your *attitude* towards Jews, which consigns them to being an "evil People." In reality, they are no more evil than any other people. Nations have their rise and falls. One generation may be wicked, and another generation may be righteous. It is a bad attitude that condemns a nation for all time!


On the other hand I see you as a godly man who loves God and His Scriptures. So my view of you is mixed. If you hold to your anti-Jewish views, and still maintain love for them, and a desire to evangelize them, I would not despise your attitude at all. This would just be a matter of conscience for you, to believe as you see fit.

My 'attitude', is that God's Will be done on earth, as it is in heaven..... Nothing more; nothing less.
We ARE told that God has made some people for destruction, Romans 9:22, and it is plain who those people are: ...those people who suppress the truth, Romans 1:18, and all who reject the Salvation freely offered by Jesus.


Your support of the Jewish State of Israel is misplaced. Their flag should indicate to you their Satanic roots. Revelation 2:9 & 3:9 The hexagram of Remphan and the sign for the House of Rothschild.
I have much better and more deserving places for my support.
You think the Jewish remnant will 'stand proud'? Ezekiel 16:63, says otherwise.

[Keraz]

Israel was the 1st Chosen Nation, and the only Chosen Nation, during the OT era. Then Christ came so that all nations could become Chosen Nations. Unfortunately, in rejecting Jesus Israel lost their "Chosen" status in a sense. It showed that those who in their hearts truly reject Jesus can never be legitimate Jews, and part of the Chosen Nation of Israel.

But this is a far cry from saying that *all Jews* have in their hearts rejected Jesus for all time. Many who initially rejected Jesus later came to accept him. And it is possible for Israel, as a nation, to accept Christianity as their national religion. I believe it will ultimately happen. So we should *not* deny Israel her call to be a Chosen Nation!

Your fundamental error is in making Judah and Israel into the one people. They were separated after Solomon and all the prophets carefully maintain the difference. Ezekiel 37 tells of their eventual rejoining, and when that chapter is read properly and carefully, it is plain that the rejoining has not happened yet.
So there is now the House of Judah, the Jewish people, mainly in apostasy and the House of Israel, the Western nations, mainly Christian.

Salvation is since Jesus came, an individual thing, not an issue for any nation to demand all their citizens to do. But all the Christian peoples do constitute a 'nation' in the sight of God. And plainly it is we Christians, doing God's will on earth, who will receive the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43


As for Judah ' the current State of Israel, all becoming Christian; that would be great, I assure you I would be very happy to see it. However, Bible prophecy does not say this will happen.

The verse of Romans 11:26 that refers to the whole of Israel being saved, comes straight after Paul's dissertation about the Olive Tree. Plainly the 'whole' people who will be saved, are those who are either re attached or are grafted in to the Tree; that is Christ. No one can be saved who has been cut off or has never been part of that Tree, all who reject Jesus are doomed. Romans 1:18-32

As Zechariah says in the OP of this thread: God will give the holy Land to new owners. Believe it or not!

[Fenris]

As Zechariah says in the OP of this thread: God will give the holy Land to new owners. Believe it or not!

Happened already. 586BC and again in 70. Old news. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[randyk]

Your fundamental error is in making Judah and Israel into the one people. They were separated after Solomon and all the prophets carefully maintain the difference. Ezekiel 37 tells of their eventual rejoining, and when that chapter is read properly and carefully, it is plain that the rejoining has not happened yet.
So there is now the House of Judah, the Jewish people, mainly in apostasy and the House of Israel, the Western nations, mainly Christian.

Salvation is since Jesus came, an individual thing, not an issue for any nation to demand all their citizens to do. But all the Christian peoples do constitute a 'nation' in the sight of God. And plainly it is we Christians, doing God's will on earth, who will receive the Kingdom. Matthew 21:43

I have no problem with you having a different opinion. It is only the "judgmentalism" about you that bothers me. But yes, we can have conversations about what we believe, assuming we *love one another.*

Eze 37 is debated, and yes Jews and Christians often think this represents a future reality--the unification of Israel. I actually think it may be a combination of both--the past union of Israel into the "Jewish State," following the Babylonian Captivity, and the future spiritual salvation of the Jewish People.

Again, the tribal distinctions became almost moot after the Assyrian and Babylonian captivities. Many in the North went into Diaspora, some never to return. Others have filtered back in among the Jewish People over time. The Jewish People in Jesus' day were probably consisting of all of the tribal groups, mixed together and constituting "the Jewish People."

But according to Eze 37 this was preliminary to a greater consolidation under spiritual conditions. There would also come a future spiritual reality, in the time of Christ. This began in the time of Jesus' earthly ministry, and is completed in the Millennium. Ezekiel simply portrayed it as one grand master plan. Just my view...

As for Judah ' the current State of Israel, all becoming Christian; that would be great, I assure you I would be very happy to see it. However, Bible prophecy does not say this will happen.

The verse of Romans 11:26 that refers to the whole of Israel being saved, comes straight after Paul's dissertation about the Olive Tree. Plainly the 'whole' people who will be saved, are those who are either re attached or are grafted in to the Tree; that is Christ. No one can be saved who has been cut off or has never been part of that Tree, all who reject Jesus are doomed. Romans 1:18-32

As Zechariah says in the OP of this thread: God will give the holy Land to new owners. Believe it or not!

No, I believe it. It just happened at Christ's 1st Coming, when the spiritual blessing was taken from the nation of Israel and given to the Roman Empire, along with many other nations later on. I appreciate your willingness to declare God's love for the Jewish People despite your theology! We can agree on that.

[Keraz]

No, I believe it. It just happened at Christ's 1st Coming, when the spiritual blessing was taken from the nation of Israel and given to the Roman Empire, along with many other nations later on. I appreciate your willingness to declare God's love for the Jewish People despite your theology! We can agree on that.

Wow!
The idea of the Roman Empire receiving the Kingdom, is way out in the left field! This means the Catholic Church has it now. What is their fruit, I wonder?

Wouldn't it be a lot better to just believe what the Bible tells us? About God's judgement of Judah and His plans for His Christian people.

The Heirs of the Holy Land:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has cleansed His possession. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, soon after the Sixth Seal event that will clear all of the holy Land, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

[randyk]

Wow!
The idea of the Roman Empire receiving the Kingdom, is way out in the left field! This means the Catholic Church has it now. What is their fruit, I wonder?

No, it's not way out in left field. You are just not familiar with the idea. God said he would reach Gentile *nations,* not just remnants of people within nations. Israel was called *as a nation,* and not just as a small remnant within the nation.

It's clear to me that the Roman Empire was Christianized, and became a kind of "Christian Nation." No, not everybody was a Christian, and not everybody who called themselves a Christian truly was one.

God's idea was to call entire nations, so that the society would be run along Christian lines, thus enabling the entire population to benefit from an environment of social justice. Not everybody benefits spiritually, but all people benefit socially when the *whole nation* adopts a Christian constitution, of sorts.

Wouldn't it be a lot better to just believe what the Bible tells us? About God's judgement of Judah and His plans for His Christian people.

The Heirs of the Holy Land:

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has cleansed His possession. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.

Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, soon after the Sixth Seal event that will clear all of the holy Land, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

All of your passages can apply to Jews who accept Christianity. They inherit the land of Israel.

As to the Great Multitude from all nations, it is as I said. God has intended to save *nations* and not just small remnants of people within nations. He wants the entire nation to become a Christian nation, regardless of who among them actually get saved.

The promise to Abraham was that he would have a nation--Israel--and a vast multitude of people from all nations. That's how the promise reads.

[Keraz]

The promise to Abraham was that he would have a nation--Israel--and a vast multitude of people from all nations. That's how the promise reads.

Genesis 17:5-6 Your name is now Abraham and I shall make the father of many nations, exceedingly fruitful; nations and kings shall spring from you.

Must you resort to mis-interpretation to make your 'Israel is the be all and end all' doctrine? God's promises to Abraham, were that his descendants would be as the sands of the sea; an uncountable multitude, living in fertile lands and ruling the world. This does NOT apply to just the Jewish people.


That there will be far more than the few thousand Messianic Jews in all of the holy Land, after the Lord has de-populated that entire area on His Day of wrath, is proved by: Isaiah 49:19-21, Isaiah 26:15, Isaiah 54:2-3, Micah 7:11-12

It is every faithful Christian who will occupy all of the holy Land. There; we will be called the Sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

[randyk]

Genesis 17:5-6 Your name is now Abraham and I shall make the father of many nations, exceedingly fruitful; nations and kings shall spring from you.

Must you resort to mis-interpretation to make your 'Israel is the be all and end all' doctrine? God's promises to Abraham, were that his descendants would be as the sands of the sea; an uncountable multitude, living in fertile lands and ruling the world. This does NOT apply to just the Jewish people.


That there will be far more than the few thousand Messianic Jews in all of the holy Land, after the Lord has de-populated that entire area on His Day of wrath, is proved by: Isaiah 49:19-21, Isaiah 26:15, Isaiah 54:2-3, Micah 7:11-12

It is every faithful Christian who will occupy all of the holy Land. There; we will be called the Sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

I've said, and I'll say again, God promised Abraham *2 things.*
1) The nation of Israel in covenant with God.
2) Many nations in covenant with God.

Gal 3.8 Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”

[jeffweeder]

It is every faithful Christian who will occupy all of the holy Land. There; we will be called the Sons of the Living God. Romans 9:24-26

This is true, but I think the Holy land we shall occupy is on a NHNE rather than this old one.

rev 21
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

[randyk]

This is true, but I think the Holy land we shall occupy is on a NHNE rather than this old one.

rev 21
5 And He who sits on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” And He *said, “Write, for these words are faithful and true.” 6 Then He said to me, “It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give to the one who thirsts from the spring of the water of life without cost. 7 He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be his God and he will be My son.

Yea, I think it could be called, "the Holy Earth."

[jeffweeder]

Yea, I think it could be called, "the Holy Earth."

Yes , previously known as the place prepared from the foundation of the earth where God walked with us in the cool of the day. It was all very good and we inherit it again.

[Keraz]

This is true, but I think the Holy land we shall occupy is on a NHNE rather than this old one.

But this idea conflicts with the many prophesies that plainly say the Lord will cleanse the holy Land and His godly people will settle there. Before Jesus Returns, as many of those prophesies say: Then you will know the Lord has done this.
The OP is a good example of a prophecy for this era, not the Millennium or the NHNE.

[jeffweeder]

But this idea conflicts with the many prophesies that plainly say the Lord will cleanse the holy Land and His godly people will settle there. Before Jesus Returns, as many of those prophesies say: Then you will know the Lord has done this.

Are you saying we are gathered to the holy land before he comes?
If so, then who is he gathering from all nations when he does come ?


Heb 12
18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20 For they could not bear the command, “If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned.” 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I am full of fear and trembling.”

22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.


I believe that this bolded part is what the prophets were referring to. We now look forward to our glorification at his coming to fully inherit it.

[Jeremiah James]

Jeremiah 8 was a warning to that generation, not ours; and it took place 2500 years ago.

Most of the verses Karez quoted above are about the 1,000 years Millennial reign. Too many events mentioned in them simply haven't happened yet.

For example...

The day hasn't come where God, "executed justice upon the nations." He hasn't, "poured out His fierce anger and the whole earth." God hasn't, "hasn't taken away Israel's punishments and has cast out their enemies."...…..YET!

Another example is Isaiah 14. Little to nothing in that chapter has come to pass. It's all about the Millennial reign of Christ.