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Thread: Revelation & history part 2

  1. #1
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    Revelation & history part 2

    Revelation 18:20
    20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”

    Revelation 18:24
    24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    Matthew 23:33-3933 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]

    History
    Israel is the only nation who killed and persecuted the saints and the prophets

    Could it just be a coincidence?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...on-amp-history

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Are we to rejoice over the destruction of Jerusalem?
    Jesus said otherwise.

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 18:20
    20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”

    Revelation 18:24
    24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    Matthew 23:33-3933 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]

    History
    Israel is the only nation who killed and persecuted the saints and the prophets

    Could it just be a coincidence?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...on-amp-history
    Yes, this positively IDs ancient Rome as the source of persecution of the apostles. It appears to me, however, that Rome continues until the arrival of Christ's Kingdom. That has not happened yet.

    I have to conclude that the Roman Empire continued long after the destruction of Jerusalem, and then fell in 476 AD. It began to break up after that, continuing in the East in the form of the Byzantine Empire. The Western Empire ultimately revived in a brand new form under Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire.

    In our day the remnants of the Roman Empire are in fact a number of political states. The Empire has broken up into at least 10 kings. This does not indicate that Jerusalem was the Great Whore. If anything, I think it indicates the city of Rome itself may be the Great Whore. The Beast presides over this revitalized Roman Empire, and apparently destroys the city of Rome. But it's a question...

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    ... Revelation 18:24
    24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    History
    Israel is the only nation who killed and persecuted the saints and the prophets
    True ... Israel persecuted saints and prophets but Israel is hardly the only nation who did.

    Regardless. Is Israel responsible for "all who have been slaughtered on the earth". Not just saints and prophets ... but "all who have been slaughtered"?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    True ... Israel persecuted saints and prophets but Israel is hardly the only nation who did.

    Regardless. Is Israel responsible for "all who have been slaughtered on the earth". Not just saints and prophets ... but "all who have been slaughtered"?
    But you are being too logical though. If you want to get on the same page with some of these others around here, you'll have to toss logic out the window in order to do so. Some of us are not willing to do that though.

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post

    Regardless. Is Israel responsible for "all who have been slaughtered on the earth". Not just saints and prophets ... but "all who have been slaughtered"?
    Even if we only confined the slaughter to just saints and prophets, the same question applies...is Israel responsible for every saint slaughtered on the globe? What about the saints who the beast makes war with, then overcomes, and then kills some? Is the beast Israel then?

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Even if we only confined the slaughter to just saints and prophets, the same question applies...is Israel responsible for every saint slaughtered on the globe? What about the saints who the beast makes war with, then overcomes, and then kills some? Is the beast Israel then?
    You're right, saints have been slaughtered that can not be even remotely associated with Israel or any city for that matter.

    The question remains ... regardless of who or what you try to fit into the interpretation ... What city, nation, religion, etc. is responsible for "all who have been slaughtered on the earth"?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, this positively IDs ancient Rome as the source of persecution of the apostles. It appears to me, however, that Rome continues until the arrival of Christ's Kingdom. That has not happened yet.

    I have to conclude that the Roman Empire continued long after the destruction of Jerusalem, and then fell in 476 AD. It began to break up after that, continuing in the East in the form of the Byzantine Empire. The Western Empire ultimately revived in a brand new form under Charlemagne and the Holy Roman Empire.

    In our day the remnants of the Roman Empire are in fact a number of political states. The Empire has broken up into at least 10 kings. This does not indicate that Jerusalem was the Great Whore. If anything, I think it indicates the city of Rome itself may be the Great Whore. The Beast presides over this revitalized Roman Empire, and apparently destroys the city of Rome. But it's a question...
    But only Israel persecuted and killed the prophets & the saints Rome didn't they only killed and persecuted the saints

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    True ... Israel persecuted saints and prophets but Israel is hardly the only nation who did.

    Regardless. Is Israel responsible for "all who have been slaughtered on the earth". Not just saints and prophets ... but "all who have been slaughtered"?
    Yes they were the only nation to kill and persecute both the saints & the prophets

    The text doesn't say that they were responsible for all of the slaughtered on the earth just that the wrath of all will come on them

    Obviously Jesus who said the same thing in Mathew 23:35 wasn't saying that Jerusalem was responsible for all of the shed blood in the world because they didn't kill everyone just that the wrath would come on them. I did post Jesus' own words

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Yes they were the only nation to kill and persecute both the saints & the prophets

    The text doesn't say that they were responsible for all of the slaughtered on the earth just that the wrath of all will come on them

    Obviously Jesus who said the same thing in Mathew 23:35 wasn't saying that Jerusalem was responsible for all of the shed blood in the world because they didn't kill everyone just that the wrath would come on them. I did post Jesus' own words
    Jesus was saying Jerusalem would be responsible for the saints and prophets but not for all who have been slaughtered.

    But that is what the Harlot is being held responsible for. You can not separate the “all who were slaughtered” from the rest of the passage in order to get the passage to refer to Israel.

    Who ever you want to give that distinction to (Being the Great Harlot) … must fulfil all the criteria and descriptions given in the scriptures about her not just some of them.

    Jerusalem can fit the description of killing the saints and prophets but can not fit the description of being responsible for “all those who have been slaughtered on the earth”. Since Jerusalem can not fit that description she can not be the Great Harlot.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    But only Israel persecuted and killed the prophets & the saints Rome didn't they only killed and persecuted the saints
    Who killed Jesus? I am pretty sure it was the Romans. Are was He not a prophet?

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Who killed Jesus? I am pretty sure it was the Romans. Are was He not a prophet?
    Actually I can see it as either Romans , Jerusalem or both.
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Note that Jesus included the blood from Abel - so I take that to mean He is not referring to the people themselves, but rather the spirit they exhibit.
    Those who take the Mark of the Beast will have the same spirit - antichrist.

    So the place will be that of the AC, and by the same rational as Jesus attributed the blood of Abel to Jerusalem, so will it be attributed to that place, thogh it is never going to be true that anyone place is where all were slaughtered. (This I think is self-evident, so we should look for the reason for the claim, rather getting stuck in the detail of the claim).

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Note that Jesus included the blood from Abel - so I take that to mean He is not referring to the people themselves, but rather the spirit they exhibit.
    Those who take the Mark of the Beast will have the same spirit - antichrist.

    So the place will be that of the AC, and by the same rational as Jesus attributed the blood of Abel to Jerusalem, so will it be attributed to that place, thogh it is never going to be true that anyone place is where all were slaughtered. (This I think is self-evident, so we should look for the reason for the claim, rather getting stuck in the detail of the claim).
    This makes good sense. And if one looks at Matt 23, Jesus was obviously describing their spiritual condition, which then could apply to anyone having some of those same traits. Such as...

    Matthew 23:25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess.
    26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

    Why would this only be applicable to those scribes and Pharisees at the time? None of this can apply to anyone in our day and time? Something such as this can't apply to a Gentile as well?

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    Re: Revelation & history part 2

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Revelation 18:20
    20 “Rejoice over her, you heavens!
    Rejoice, you people of God!
    Rejoice, apostles and prophets!
    For God has judged her
    with the judgment she imposed on you.”

    Revelation 18:24
    24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    Matthew 23:33-3933 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’[c]

    History
    Israel is the only nation who killed and persecuted the saints and the prophets

    Could it just be a coincidence?

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...on-amp-history
    Babylon is Satan's Dark Kingdom (THIS WHOLE WORLD). When Babylon falls, Satan loses his Kingdom and is locked into the bottomless pit. Babel means Confusion, Satan is the author of confusion. All the Prophets and Saints were killed on Earth by Satan's peoples, he is their father, thus they kill, steal and destroy.

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