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Thread: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

  1. #46
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    I too used to think that there would be a ten nation confederacy with the last empire of the beast, the Muslims. I once believed that ten nations would ban together to wage war against the saints. But today I am not as certain. And it started with a conclusion from Daniel Chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar's Dream.

    I knew that Rome were the legs of iron, but I was somewhat baffled by the two legs until I was given a little revelation. Baruch HaShem! Rome ruled over the Holy Land in two legs, first from the city of Rome and then from the East after the empire was divided. So, I wondered what was the time from Rome and what was the time from the Eastern empire.

    The Holy Land was ruled from Rome starting with the conquest by Pompey the Great in 63 BC up to Emperor Diocletian’s splitting of the empire in 285 AD. This is a period of 348 years.

    So, beginning in 285 AD the Holy Land was ruled from the east, and eventually from the Eastern Roman Empire capital of Constantinople. These Eastern or Byzantine Romans would rule over the Holy Land until the rise of Islam. In 634 AD followers of the prophet Mohammad won the Battle of Ajnadayn over the Byzantine Romans, beginning the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land. This would be the beginning of the end of the Byzantine or Eastern Roman Empire’s rule over the Holy Land. So, to recap, the Holy Land was ruled from the city of Rome for 348 years. The Holy Land was then ruled from the eastern portions of the Roman Empire and the city of Constantinople from 285AD to 634AD, or approximately 349 years. One leg from the western city of Rome lasted approximately 348 years. One leg from east and later the city of Constantinople lasted approximately 349 years.

    These are very precise time frames that are nearly equal. Two legs of iron! It is quite amazing how accurately Nebuchadnezzar's statue symbolized the various empires.

    Well if Rome was represented in two parts what of the Muslim empire that followed? Amazingly, the Muslim empire are actually a succession of kingdoms or authorities that have ruled over the Holy Land, or at least some of it, starting with the first Muslim Empire, the Rashiduns. So, below is a list:

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1993AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today

    Ten! Some strong like the Rashiduns, or the Ayyubid Dynasty founded by Saladin of "Kingdom of Heaven" fame, or the Ottoman Turks. But some are weak like the Seljuqs, the Nation of Jordan, and the Palestinian National Authority. It fits the ten toes, some of iron, and some of clay. It fits the ten horns too.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    I agree the Feet kingdom is the Caliphate. However I believe the Toes is the 10 kings also seen in Dan 7 and Rev 17:12.
    Why TWO Feet?
    Sometimes Israel has been ruled by the Sunnis, and sometimes by the Shias.

    The Toes however, will be of the same type as the Caliphate - that is a religio-political force, but I do not believe they will be the Muslim kingdom. That lost its power over the Holy Land in 1917.
    Just as there was a period from around 163 - 63 BC, and then the period of the Crusaders, so now we are in another period outside of those kingdoms. Why? Because the 7 heads have happened - we are now awaiting the rise of the 10 kings and then the AC.

    PS Jordan was not a Caliphate, and nor is the Palestinian National Authority.

  2. #47

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    The picture of the city in Rev 17 and 18 is all about apostate religion.
    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    18 The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth.”


    Beginning with this verse and five more times in Revelation 18 the Bible tells us it is a great city. The scripture doesn't say it "is all about apostate religion." What apostate religion rules over the kings if the earth? Judaism? No. Catholism? No. Islam? Not even them, but they are working at it. But they aren't the great city either.

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Fornication, abomination, and whoredom all have to do with idols and idolatry. (Deut 7:25) Babylon is the mother of harlots. The history involving Babylon began before the call of Abraham in Gen 10:8-10 and Gen 11 and continued throughout history.
    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    2 With her the kings of the earth committed adultery, and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”


    Why can't the adulteries be adulteries. The Greek word behind this is "porneias." And the Greek word for harlot is the similar word "pornēs." We get the word pornography from it , meaning literally the image of harlots.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    5 The name written on her forehead was a mystery:

    babylon the great

    the mother of prostitutes

    and of the abominations of the earth.


    What do mothers do? They give birth.

    Thomas Edison was famous for creating the lightbulb. But do you know what else he created? The world's first motion picture studio, the Black Maria within a couple of miles of Staten Island. New York City would become Hollywood before there was a motion picture industry in Hollywood. NYC is the birthplace of the motion picture industry. The French and others were toying with motion pictures. But NYC capitalist made it an industry and spread it to the whole world. Even today NYC corporations control much of what we see in movies, television, and the internet. Though the seadulteries have truly spread throughout the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Babylonian influence infiltrated the teachings in the synagogues. The "oral law" is a corruption of the law of Moses. It was “interpreted” until it became tradition that is so full of leaven that it makes the Word of God of no effect. This “law of the Jews” is full of fables. (Titus 1:14) The influence of these false teachings pervades religions worldwide.
    Sorry, but it is stretch to assume that Judaism is Mystery Babylon. First Judaism doesn't rule over the kings of the earth. Though I am sure there are a few Rabbis that wish they could. Though Judaism is the base for Christianity. And Islam is influenced by Judaism. Judaism has no influence over Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, and many others.

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Babylon the Great, the Harlot, is the mother of false religion with Satan as the driving force. A look at all the cathedrals, temples, and ornate churches around the world show her abominations are not necessarily confined to a single city.
    The prophecy only mentions a single great city. Mystery Babylon is not and cannot be a false religion. A false religion is not what the scriptures are describing.

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Rev 18
    For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more. The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thine wood, and all manner of vessels...and souls of men.

    Does this not bring to mind statues, robes, challises, tapestries, incense, false gods of gold and silver?
    No. In the Apostle John's time the list of commodities in Rev 18 were the most valuable of things one could own. John was trying to convey the idea that the city would have enormous wealth by listing what was valuable during his time. You mention this from

    Revelation 18:23
    Your merchants were the world’s important people.


    How does this fit a false religion? However, NYC based merchants from Alexander Hamilton to President Donald Trump are too numerous to name in this format. New York City is commerce central. Many of the world's grest merchants were based in NYC. Several of the clues in Revelation 17 and 18 point to a great city of enormous wealth and commerce. New York City is the largest city in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known. No great city has ever fulfilled the commercial decriptions in the prophecies as well.


    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Also:
    Rev 18:22* And the voice of harpers, and musicians, and of pipers, and trumpeters, shall be heard no more at all in thee; and no craftsman, of whatsoever craft he be, shall be found any more in thee; and the sound of a millstone shall be heard no more at all in thee;*
    Rev 18:23* And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.*

    It will be the merchants and tradesmen and craftsmen the world over who will mourn her passing. Why? Because they became rich supplying all the materials for the idols and the idolatrous churches of the world.
    Where are merchants getting wealthy from idols from an idolatrous church? And how much do these merchants truly expect to earn from these idols? The prophecy talks about a commercial center far more vast than something like you are describing.

    Revelation 18 - 24 is the total destruction of the great city.

    Quote Originally Posted by verity View Post
    Rev 14:8* And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.*

    Rev 16:19* And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

    Also, although the present day city of Babylon is basically in ruins, it has been a slow decline. This did not happen "suddenly" or "in one hour" or "in a moment in one day." Also, although there are few inhabitants, scripture states that "it shall no more be inhabited forever...so shall no man abide there...neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there."

    Isa 13:19* And Babylon, the glory of kingdoms, the beauty of the Chaldees' excellency, shall be as when God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah.*
    Isa 13:20* It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.*
    Isa 13:21* But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.*
    Isa 13:22* And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.*
    Ancient Babylon was fulfilled by Isaiah 13:19 to 13:22. But did you notice this prophecy doesn't mention one hour.

    The one hour prophecy is in Revelation 18:29. It is not for Ancient Babylon. It is for a new Babylon, a Mystery Babylon.

    I will respectfully disagree with your conclusions. It is way too much of a stretch to read a false religion into the great city and the prophecies.

  3. #48

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I agree the Feet kingdom is the Caliphate. However I believe the Toes is the 10 kings also seen in Dan 7 and Rev 17:12.
    Why TWO Feet?
    Sometimes Israel has been ruled by the Sunnis, and sometimes by the Shias.

    The Toes however, will be of the same type as the Caliphate - that is a religio-political force, but I do not believe they will be the Muslim kingdom. That lost its power over the Holy Land in 1917.
    Just as there was a period from around 163 - 63 BC, and then the period of the Crusaders, so now we are in another period outside of those kingdoms. Why? Because the 7 heads have happened - we are now awaiting the rise of the 10 kings and then the AC.

    PS Jordan was not a Caliphate, and nor is the Palestinian National Authority.
    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast.


    When the Apostle John wrote Revelations these 10 kingdoms did not yet exist. The prophecy doesn't provide any details about the "kingdoms." It doesn't say it could only be caliphates. Of course today, there are very few kingdoms. There are nations.

    By the way, did the Muslums stop controlling the Temple Mount with the Dome of the Rock and Al Asqa Mosque? Who controls the West Bank and East Jerusalem? It is jointly controlled by Israel and the Palestinian National Authority. The Muslims still have their stake in the Land.

    As an aside the word for hour is the Greek word Horan. It can also be translated into English as a "period of time." Change "hour" in verse 12 above to "a period of time". A whole new understanding opens up.

    By the way, there is nothing in the prophecy to clearly indicate that these kingdoms are to exist at the same period of time. The prophecies are sadly unclear in this detail.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  4. #49
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Actually verse 12 states they have power at the same time as the beast. So ALL at the SAME time.
    Further Dan 7 also shows them at the same time.
    Now think about the thighs of bronze.
    These kingdoms were at the same time.
    The Legs of Iron were actually at the same time. Rome was the capital as you noted, but The Eastern part of the empire was administered separately almost from the start.

  5. #50

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually verse 12 states they have power at the same time as the beast. So ALL at the SAME time.
    Further Dan 7 also shows them at the same time.
    Now think about the thighs of bronze.
    These kingdoms were at the same time.
    The Legs of Iron were actually at the same time. Rome was the capital as you noted, but The Eastern part of the empire was administered separately almost from the start.
    The problem with your argument is the beast. The beast is all seven heads and all ten horns. To say that the ten horns exist at the same time as the beast is to say that Neo-Babylonians ruled the Holy Land at the same time as the Romans. The beast is all the empires from the Egyptians, Assyrians, New-Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Muslims. The beast is a spirit of war, conquest, and rulership over the Holy Land and G-d's Holy People.

    I disagree that the Legs of Iron were at the same time. History tells us that the empire was not divided until Emperor Diocletian. If Rome's legs of iron are two separate yet amazingly equal time periods, then why not the ten toes. Since there have been 10 different Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all the Holy Land, I see this as a likely fit to the prophecies.

    I realize that the long held view by many that the Antichrist will have this ten nation confederacy is shattered by this notion. And that those that have invested heavily in this ten nation confederacy theory will defend their long held views. Clearly this yet to exist confederacy would be an unfulfilled prophecy. However, the idea that the ten toes or horns were separate Muslim caliphates, sultanates, empires, nations, and authorities, that have already existed in our history would mean that this prophecy has already been fulfilled. And if this is the case, then we already have all the heads and all the horns, and all the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's stature too. And this means the next thing to happen is the rock not cut out by human hands that will destroy the statue at the feat of iron and clay. This is the return of our Messiah. This would also mean that the time may be very near. Are you ready?

    Shalom,

    Gavirel

  6. #51
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    The problem with your argument is the beast. The beast is all seven heads and all ten horns. To say that the ten horns exist at the same time as the beast is to say that Neo-Babylonians ruled the Holy Land at the same time as the Romans. The beast is all the empires from the Egyptians, Assyrians, New-Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans, and Muslims. The beast is a spirit of war, conquest, and rulership over the Holy Land and G-d's Holy People.
    I get your argument, but you are wrong.
    The beast is the spirit of antichrist.
    However in revelation we are told the beast represents the AC AND that the AC is an 8th king who is OF the 7, yet is none of them.
    It also states that the 8th king WAS, meaning one of the heads, is NOT, meaning the 6th head is not the AC incarnate, and will be, meaning the 8th.
    The beast is NOT the Egyptians or the Assyrians or the Babylonians.
    The beast is the Persians, the Greeks, Romans and Caliphates - Dan 7 tells us of the 4 beasts which comprise the 7 headed beast.
    None of these though are the 10 horns, who are 10 other kings.

    [QUOTE]I disagree that the Legs of Iron were at the same time. History tells us that the empire was not divided until Emperor Diocletian. If Rome's legs of iron are two separate yet amazingly equal time periods, then why not the ten toes. Since there have been 10 different Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all the Holy Land, I see this as a likely fit to the prophecies./QUOTE]
    Actually history, when looked into show that even though there were NOT two Caesars before Diocletian, the ruling of the empire was split in two.
    This is why it was fairly easy to split it into two.
    You had the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western, but united under one Caesar.
    You need to dig into the way the Legions were organised and how the administration in particular functioned.

    As for the argument about the 10 toes, it IS a possible interpretation, even though we don't find it is true of the Thighs of Bronze, nor the Chest and Arms of Silver (and it is debatable about the Legs of Iron). Further though Rome no longer controlled the Holy Land, it still remained as a kingdom until conquered by the Caliphate in 1453 AD.

    I realize that the long held view by many that the Antichrist will have this ten nation confederacy is shattered by this notion. And that those that have invested heavily in this ten nation confederacy theory will defend their long held views. Clearly this yet to exist confederacy would be an unfulfilled prophecy. However, the idea that the ten toes or horns were separate Muslim caliphates, sultanates, empires, nations, and authorities, that have already existed in our history would mean that this prophecy has already been fulfilled. And if this is the case, then we already have all the heads and all the horns, and all the elements in Nebuchadnezzar's stature too. And this means the next thing to happen is the rock not cut out by human hands that will destroy the statue at the feat of iron and clay. This is the return of our Messiah. This would also mean that the time may be very near. Are you ready?
    The reason I disagree with you is not for some long held view about a 10 nation confederacy, but because we are told SPECIFICALLY in Revelation 17 and Dan 7 that they exist at the same time.
    Now if you could show how these two passages don't mean that, then you would be on the way to convincing me.
    Going further, each kingdom does not follow the line of the kings WITHIN a kingdom.
    If that were so then the Persians would need to be counting some of the fingers, the Greeks would need more thighs, and the Romans would need more legs.
    The time is near, but it is not yet. The horns are not yet known, even if they already exist.

  7. #52

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I get your argument, but you are wrong.
    The problem with your argument is that you are looking for something that has yet to happen. You are trying to use Bible Prophecy to predict the future. I see that our history has already fulfilled the prophecies. The next thing is the return of the Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The beast is the spirit of antichrist.
    I agree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    However in revelation we are told the beast represents the AC AND that the AC is an 8th king who is OF the 7, yet is none of them.
    It also states that the 8th king WAS, meaning one of the heads, is NOT, meaning the 6th head is not the AC incarnate, and will be, meaning the 8th.
    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.


    I agree that the beast is an eight, but it clearly says he "is one of the seven." So he is not "none of them."


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The beast is NOT the Egyptians or the Assyrians or the Babylonians.
    The beast is the Persians, the Greeks, Romans and Caliphates
    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


    Again, the prophecy was written during the time of the Apostle John. Rome was the ruling empire at that time and is the "one is." This means that FIVE have fallen before the Roman empire. If you only look at the Persians and Greeks then you are missing three empires. The Bible itself tells that Egypt and Assyria came against the Holy Land and G-d's Holy People. We know that Nebuchadnezzar (Neo-Babylonians) came up against them too. When the Apostle John wrote Revelation, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires had all fallen fulfilling the "five have fallen" prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    - Dan 7 tells us of the 4 beasts which comprise the 7 headed beast.
    None of these though are the 10 horns, who are 10 other kings.
    Daniel 7 can be a bit of confusing prophecy. It clearly talks about the Antichrist. It talks about the ten horns too. However, with the prophecy in Revelation 17 we know that there is an empire that follows Rome, the one yet to come that must remain for a little while.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually history, when looked into show that even though there were NOT two Caesars before Diocletian, the ruling of the empire was split in two.
    This is why it was fairly easy to split it into two.
    You had the Eastern Roman Empire and the Western, but united under one Caesar.
    You need to dig into the way the Legions were organised and how the administration in particular functioned.
    Of course the Roman empire had its governors to break down the administration, but the seat of power that ruled over the Holy Land was Rome. It remained Rome until the emperor Diocletian split the empire in 285AD. The city of Byzantium was chosen as a new capitol. Of course, we know that Byzantium become Constantinople. First leg from Rome (63BC to 285AD=348 years) . Second leg from Byzantium (Byzantine Empire). Byzantine Empires rulership was from 285AD to 634 AD = 349 years. That is way to precise of a breakdown to be coincidental. Daniel predicted this division of the Roman Empire over 700 years before it came true. Amazing to me. It should be amazing to everyone. Oh well.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    As for the argument about the 10 toes, it IS a possible interpretation, even though we don't find it is true of the Thighs of Bronze, nor the Chest and Arms of Silver (and it is debatable about the Legs of Iron). Further though Rome no longer controlled the Holy Land, it still remained as a kingdom until conquered by the Caliphate in 1453 AD.
    Yes the Byzantine Empire would last until the fall of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453AD. That doesn't change the fact that they lost control of the Holy Land to the Muslims in the 7th Century, 700 years earlier. There is an interesting fact about Nebuchadnezzar's statue, when the Neo-Babylonian empire ended (Head of Gold) it ceased to exist in history. Also there were no more traces of gold in the statue. The arms of silver (Medes and Persians) came together to form the Achaemenid Empire (Persian Empire) were totally destroyed by Alexander the Great and the Greeks. The Achaemenid Empire ceased to exist, and so did the element of silver in the statue. The Greeks belly and thighs of bronze was conquered by the Romans. When the Greeks were gone so were any traces of bronze in the statue. But when the empire of iron and clay replaced the legs of iron, the iron did not go away in the statue. That is a curious fact. It is almost to say that, "oh by the way, that empire will not immediately go away like the other before it." Just a curious little detail about Nebuchadnezzar's statue.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The reason I disagree with you is not for some long held view about a 10 nation confederacy, but because we are told SPECIFICALLY in Revelation 17 and Dan 7 that they exist at the same time. Now if you could show how these two passages don't mean that, then you would be on the way to convincing me.
    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.


    Where does it say that they exist at the same time? The beast is all the kingdoms together. The beast's time is throughout all the empires. I believe it wrong to assume that they exist at the same time.

    Also the "one hour" could also be "a period of time." "One hour" truthfully never made sense. Come on. Ten nations will form an empire in "one hour." I don't think so. But will ten kingdoms be each given authority for "a period of time." Yes. That makes more sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Going further, each kingdom does not follow the line of the kings WITHIN a kingdom.
    If that were so then the Persians would need to be counting some of the fingers, the Greeks would need more thighs, and the Romans would need more legs.
    The time is near, but it is not yet. The horns are not yet known, even if they already exist.
    No. The Muslim kingdoms where each different with different capitols. This is not some kingly successions within the same empire.

    The Umayyad Caliphate was founded by a man named Muawiyah. Muawiyah was a distant relative to Muhammad, and as a young man served as a scribe under Muhammad. He would later be the governor of Syria during the Rashidun Caliphate. In the First Fitna, or Muslim Civil War, Muawiyah would overthrow the Rashiduns forming a new Caliphate. The Rashiduns had their capitol first at Kufa, then Medina. The Umayyad's capitol was at Damascus. And so would be true of the other Muslim kingdoms. They were different groups of Muslims each time forming a new Caliphate, Sultanate, empire like with the Ottoman Turks, etc.. This is not a kingly succession within the same empire. These are different rulerships within the Muslim world. And to date there have been ten, just like ten horns. Coincidence? You may think so. I do not.

    Now do I believe that another Muslim warlord will rise to wage war against the saints and conquer them, the so-called Antichrist. Scripture does point to such a situation. But how that plays out will be for history to decide, as there is possibility that the eighth king may have already come and gone. But that is for another debate at another time.



  8. #53

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    And why is all this prophecy about the beast so important to the great city Mystery Babylon? Because who were the hijackers on 9/11? What empire did they come from?

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will
    burn her up with fire.

    What is the flesh of a great city? When you take a picture of yourself you see your flesh. When you take a picture of a great city, you see its flesh. The buildings.



    9/11. There has not been any comparison to this day in the history of the world. When the towers collapsed it was like they were being eaten.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  9. #54
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    The problem with your argument is that you are looking for something that has yet to happen. You are trying to use Bible Prophecy to predict the future. I see that our history has already fulfilled the prophecies. The next thing is the return of the Messiah.
    My point is that the 10 Toes have yet to occur.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    11 The beast which was and is not, is himself also an eighth and is one of the seven, and he goes to destruction.

    I agree that the beast is an eight, but it clearly says he "is one of the seven." So he is not "none of them."
    What I mean is that the 8th is NOT one of the 10 horns. Further he is neither the 6th nor the 7th.
    The 7th is the Caliphate.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


    Again, the prophecy was written during the time of the Apostle John. Rome was the ruling empire at that time and is the "one is." This means that FIVE have fallen before the Roman empire. If you only look at the Persians and Greeks then you are missing three empires. The Bible itself tells that Egypt and Assyria came against the Holy Land and G-d's Holy People. We know that Nebuchadnezzar (Neo-Babylonians) came up against them too. When the Apostle John wrote Revelation, the Egyptian, Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Persian, and Greek empires had all fallen fulfilling the "five have fallen" prophecy.
    Were you go wrong is to include the Egyptian and the Assyrian.
    In Dan 2 the prophecy starts with Babylon. In Dan 7 the prophecy starts with Persia.
    In Dan you have the 1 head of Persia, 1 head of Rome and 4 heads of Greece, with the final head of the 4th beast. 1+1+4+1 = 7. So all accounted for.

    Daniel 7 can be a bit of confusing prophecy. It clearly talks about the Antichrist. It talks about the ten horns too. However, with the prophecy in Revelation 17 we know that there is an empire that follows Rome, the one yet to come that must remain for a little while.
    I don't see Dan 7 as that confusing. The 10 horns are none of them the AC, for he is an 11th, who is also 8th. He is of them, but not one of them, just as he is of the 7, but not one of them (though he had been).

    Of course the Roman empire had its governors to break down the administration, but the seat of power that ruled over the Holy Land was Rome. It remained Rome until the emperor Diocletian split the empire in 285AD. The city of Byzantium was chosen as a new capitol. Of course, we know that Byzantium become Constantinople. First leg from Rome (63BC to 285AD=348 years) . Second leg from Byzantium (Byzantine Empire). Byzantine Empires rulership was from 285AD to 634 AD = 349 years. That is way to precise of a breakdown to be coincidental. Daniel predicted this division of the Roman Empire over 700 years before it came true. Amazing to me. It should be amazing to everyone. Oh well.
    It was the Roman kingdom which ruled over the Holy Land. Diocletian didn't just say, lets split the kingdom. It was already split, but held together under single figurehead. He wanted to rule it better.

    Yes the Byzantine Empire would last until the fall of Constantinople by the Turks in 1453AD. That doesn't change the fact that they lost control of the Holy Land to the Muslims in the 7th Century, 700 years earlier. There is an interesting fact about Nebuchadnezzar's statue, when the Neo-Babylonian empire ended (Head of Gold) it ceased to exist in history. Also there were no more traces of gold in the statue. The arms of silver (Medes and Persians) came together to form the Achaemenid Empire (Persian Empire) were totally destroyed by Alexander the Great and the Greeks. The Achaemenid Empire ceased to exist, and so did the element of silver in the statue. The Greeks belly and thighs of bronze was conquered by the Romans. When the Greeks were gone so were any traces of bronze in the statue. But when the empire of iron and clay replaced the legs of iron, the iron did not go away in the statue. That is a curious fact. It is almost to say that, "oh by the way, that empire will not immediately go away like the other before it." Just a curious little detail about Nebuchadnezzar's statue.
    Actually you are incorrect. The Legs of Iron were replaced by the Feet of Clay in the same way as the preceding kingdoms. When Rome defeated the Greeks, they had no control over the Holy Land. Yet after the defeat of the Ptolemaic kingdom, it was vanquished in 30 BC.
    Rome was vanquished by the Caliphate in 1453 AD. The Iron Legs were gone.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 The ten horns which you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they receive authority as kings with the beast for one hour.


    Where does it say that they exist at the same time? The beast is all the kingdoms together. The beast's time is throughout all the empires. I believe it wrong to assume that they exist at the same time.
    It say they received "authority as kings WITH the beast for one hour." This is specifically stating AT the SAME TIME. It does NOT mean one king had one hour and then another at a different hour.
    This is a different statement to that givenin regards to the heads. These 10 horns are NOT heads.

    Also the "one hour" could also be "a period of time." "One hour" truthfully never made sense. Come on. Ten nations will form an empire in "one hour." I don't think so. But will ten kingdoms be each given authority for "a period of time." Yes. That makes more sense.
    It isn't a literal hour, but rather a shared period of time. However a union of 10 nations may be made in one hour, how long will it take 10 rulers to sign an agreement?

    No. The Muslim kingdoms where each different with different capitols. This is not some kingly successions within the same empire.
    Actually the Caliphate IS one kingdom. They were led by different dynasties, but the kingdom itself continued.

    The Umayyad Caliphate was founded by a man named Muawiyah. Muawiyah was a distant relative to Muhammad, and as a young man served as a scribe under Muhammad. He would later be the governor of Syria during the Rashidun Caliphate. In the First Fitna, or Muslim Civil War, Muawiyah would overthrow the Rashiduns forming a new Caliphate. The Rashiduns had their capitol first at Kufa, then Medina. The Umayyad's capitol was at Damascus. And so would be true of the other Muslim kingdoms. They were different groups of Muslims each time forming a new Caliphate, Sultanate, empire like with the Ottoman Turks, etc.. This is not a kingly succession within the same empire. These are different rulerships within the Muslim world. And to date there have been ten, just like ten horns. Coincidence? You may think so. I do not.

    Now do I believe that another Muslim warlord will rise to wage war against the saints and conquer them, the so-called Antichrist. Scripture does point to such a situation. But how that plays out will be for history to decide, as there is possibility that the eighth king may have already come and gone. But that is for another debate at another time.


    It was not a "new" Caliphate, but a succession of the previous one, based on the same principles etc.
    Note that it is different to the others as it is Clay mixed with Iron.
    And NO there have NOT been 10 Caliphates. Jordan was NOT a Caliphate, nor has it taken that title, nor did it succeed from the Ottoman, which was the last. The Palestinian Authority is also NOT the Caliphate. Further the PA doesn't rule over Jerusalem nor the Temple Mount, nor has it ever.
    It claims East Jerusalem, but this has not been recognised by any country and Rammallah is the seat of Administration.

    Now I don't believe a single one of the 10 horns has yet been known. they seem to all be on one head, and to be from the lands which were ruled by the Caliphate in the past. However your incorrect usage of history or of Rev 17:12 makes me disagree with your conclusion.
    Dan 7 also paints the same picture, that the 1 horn uproots 3 of the other horns, which means they must be in existence in order to be uprooted.

  10. #55

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    The mystery in Rev 17:5 is the secret meaning of the woman John saw: Rev 17:18* And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    The name of the city is "Babylon the Great." Why should we say it is not the city God says it is?

    What do we know about this city?
    -She is the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth. She deceived all nations by her sorceries. Listed among all the luxuries she bought from merchants of the earth is "souls of men". The blood of slain saints and prophets is found in her.

    God will "remember her iniquities." This implies past wickedness. Ancient Babylon was the original seat of rebellion against God in Gen 10,11. The great city described in Rev 17,18 will exceed the former glory of Babylon. The revival of Babylon is prophesied in Zach 5. The location is in the land of Shinar.

    Babylon has come under judgment in the past, but never "suddenly". She will be the home of evil spirits and demons. Rev 18:2
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Harlots, abominations. and sorcery:

    1Ch_5:25* And they transgressed against the God of their fathers, and went a whoring after the gods of the people of the land, whom God destroyed before them.

    2Ch_28:3* Moreover he burnt incense in the valley of the son of Hinnom, and burnt his children in the fire, after the abominations of the heathen whom the LORD had cast out before the children of Israel.

    2Ch_33:6* And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: also he observed times, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger.

    Isa_47:9* But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments.

  11. #56

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My point is that the 10 Toes have yet to occur.
    I think we will have to agree to disagree.

    No where in the prophecies does it say that the ten horns must be caliphates. The reality is that ten distinctive Muslim entities have ruled over the Holy Land since the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land in the 7th century.

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today

    We can choose to ignore history or see it as revelation.

    I am very poor and trying to predict the future using Bible Prophecy. My experience in reading other peoples predictions using Bible Prophecy, is that these people are poor at it too. The last book is called Revelation. We will see things revealed as they happen in our history. It wasn't written for us to predict the future.

    We know from history that the empire that followed Rome's rule over the Holy Land were the Muslims. And we know from history that there have been ten separate and distinct Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land throughout history.

    Could there be another Muslim entity that will rise to defeat Israel and take the land from G-d's Holy People? Maybe. As I said, I cannot predict the future. My crystal ball broke a long time ago. But I find it more that curious that there have been ten different Muslim entities. Coincidence? I doubt it.

    I actually spent a lot of time going point for point with your previous post. But I believe you are stuck on your point of view, and I know I am stuck on mine. So, the debate will likely not yield fruit.

    Honestly, I write this more for others in order to get another idea out into the thought processes of the believers. For if I am correct, the time is very near. That a command from heaven to "Come Out of Her My People" has been made. And we were meant to understand who this warning was intended. I believe New York City fulfills the prophecies. I believe nothing else has even come close. And I believe that the Muslim's hatred toward the United States and New York City lead to arguably the most horrific day in the history of the United States. An event so profound that it may have very well been foretold.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  12. #57
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    I think we will have to agree to disagree.
    We presently do.

    No where in the prophecies does it say that the ten horns must be caliphates. The reality is that ten distinctive Muslim entities have ruled over the Holy Land since the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land in the 7th century.

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today
    Here is where you are wrong.
    9) Jordan NEVER ruled over the Holy Land. It did rule part of it including part of Jerusalem. Neither did it succeed the preceding Caliphate. It did control the Temple Mount.
    10) PNA does NOT rule over Israel and NEVER has. It has a part of Jerusalem in theory, but NOT the Temple Mount.

    Very clearly 9 and 10 do NOT fit any pattern being made or follow any such.
    Further as Revelation EXPLICITLY states they will receive power AT THE SAME TIME, so I will stick with what we are told clearly.

    We can choose to ignore history or see it as revelation.
    I don't ignore history as I consider it important, but neither will I try to twist it to be other than what it is.

    I am very poor and trying to predict the future using Bible Prophecy. My experience in reading other peoples predictions using Bible Prophecy, is that these people are poor at it too. The last book is called Revelation. We will see things revealed as they happen in our history. It wasn't written for us to predict the future.
    That is your view of prophecy. Mine is very simply that God tells us things, not so that we can state a date or time, but that we can plan and prepare. The first CLEAR prophecy was to Pharaoh with the dream of 7 cows and another 7 cows, from which they were to prepare during the Good time for the Bad.
    Revelation also tells us these things so we understand the times, and when it is Good, (During the 2W) then we prepare for what happens when they are killed.

    We know from history that the empire that followed Rome's rule over the Holy Land were the Muslims. And we know from history that there have been ten separate and distinct Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land throughout history.
    Incorrect - see my point above.

    Could there be another Muslim entity that will rise to defeat Israel and take the land from G-d's Holy People? Maybe. As I said, I cannot predict the future. My crystal ball broke a long time ago. But I find it more that curious that there have been ten different Muslim entities. Coincidence? I doubt it.
    Again, incorrect - see above. You are creating a coincidence which is not there.

    I actually spent a lot of time going point for point with your previous post. But I believe you are stuck on your point of view, and I know I am stuck on mine. So, the debate will likely not yield fruit.
    Honestly, I write this more for others in order to get another idea out into the thought processes of the believers. For if I am correct, the time is very near. That a command from heaven to "Come Out of Her My People" has been made. And we were meant to understand who this warning was intended. I believe New York City fulfills the prophecies. I believe nothing else has even come close. And I believe that the Muslim's hatred toward the United States and New York City lead to arguably the most horrific day in the history of the United States. An event so profound that it may have very well been foretold.
    Shalom,
    Gavriel
    I haven't debated around NYC. ONLY about your 10 horns interpretation.
    I do understand the idea of the connection between NYC and Mystery Babylon, who is clearly separate to the AC's kingdom.
    The 7th head of the beast was the Caliphate.
    It is WHO the 10 horns are where we disagree.
    I also bring in Dan 2 and Dan 7 which show the 10 being at the same time, even as in Dan 8 the 4 horns are at the same time.
    So heads are not necessarily at the same time, but horns on a head in every prophecy are seen as at the same time - so why think Rev 17 is different?

    It could easily be a Middle Eastern alliance ( a bit like the League of Arab nations) which are the 10 horns.
    In fact when we consider the description of the 4th beast in Dan 7 we find this fits the Caliphate, and so it makes sense the horns cover the same lands.

  13. #58

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We presently do.


    Here is where you are wrong.
    9) Jordan NEVER ruled over the Holy Land. It did rule part of it including part of Jerusalem.
    Really. Check out this link.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan..._the_West_Bank

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Neither did it succeed the preceding Caliphate.
    Where in the scriptures does it say it has too? Just because the Nation of Jordan is not this vast caliphate doesn't change the fact that they did rule over parts of the Holy Land in the previous century. In Daniel 2 the scripture indicate that some of the kingdoms would be strong and some would be weak, like clay. The Nation of Jordan would be one of the clay toes.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It did control the Temple Mount.
    The Nation of Jordan during its time was in control of East Jerusalem including the Old City. Where is the Temple Mount?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    10) PNA does NOT rule over Israel and NEVER has. It has a part of Jerusalem in theory, but NOT the Temple Mount.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...onal_Authority

    This link disagrees with your statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Very clearly 9 and 10 do NOT fit any pattern being made or follow any such.
    What pattern?

    Daniel 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.


    Some strong, some brittle, there is no pattern.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Further as Revelation EXPLICITLY states they will receive power AT THE SAME TIME, so I will stick with what we are told clearly.
    Where does it EXPLICITLY state that the kingdoms of the ten horns will exist AT THE SAME TIME?

    That is enough for now. It is clear there are areas will will just need to agree to disagree. I believe I have given the evidence that both the Nation of Jordan and the Palestinian National Authority have or had rulership over portions of the Holy Land. That is all that is required. You may think more is needed. But the prophecies do not indicate this.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  14. #59

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I haven't debated around NYC. ONLY about your 10 horns interpretation.
    I do understand the idea of the connection between NYC and Mystery Babylon, who is clearly separate to the AC's kingdom.
    The 7th head of the beast was the Caliphate.
    It is WHO the 10 horns are where we disagree.
    I also bring in Dan 2 and Dan 7 which show the 10 being at the same time, even as in Dan 8 the 4 horns are at the same time.
    So heads are not necessarily at the same time, but horns on a head in every prophecy are seen as at the same time - so why think Rev 17 is different?

    It could easily be a Middle Eastern alliance ( a bit like the League of Arab nations) which are the 10 horns.
    In fact when we consider the description of the 4th beast in Dan 7 we find this fits the Caliphate, and so it makes sense the horns cover the same lands.

    My main concern is Mystery Babylon, so I do appreciate the support there. The beast is actually just another descriptor, for the "beast will hate the harlot." In 1993 Muslims attacked the World Trade Center with a truck bomb. Six people died in the attack. It was the beginning. Of course, 9/11 was far more devastating. Again, 9/11 was carried out by Muslims. Does it end with 9/11? Honestly, I do not know. In the verse with the command from Heaven, "Come out of her, my people" their is a warning about receiving her plagues. The plagues are plural. 9/11 may not be it. Though we know that a far more destructive fate is predicted with the great mill stone. It is this total destruction that makes the identity of Mystery Babylon so important.

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;


    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  15. #60
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    This link doesn't support what you are claiming.
    It simply shows that Jordan had governance over a part of Israel.
    It does NOT show Jordan ruling over all of Israel, nor that it rules all of Jerusalem.

    Where in the scriptures does it say it has too? Just because the Nation of Jordan is not this vast caliphate doesn't change the fact that they did rule over parts of the Holy Land in the previous century. In Daniel 2 the scripture indicate that some of the kingdoms would be strong and some would be weak, like clay. The Nation of Jordan would be one of the clay toes.
    Lots of places, if you paid attention to the prophecies, which confirm each other.
    The Crusaders ruled part of the Holy Land as did Britain under the UN mandate, are we to include them as well?
    Daniel 2 does NOT indicate some of the Kingdoms would be strong and some weak, but that ALL the Feet and Toes kingdoms would have a strength as well as a weakness.
    If you noted that the preceding kingdoms were all led by a single ethnos, with that ethnicity's culture as the basis for the whole kingdom, the Caliphate differs in that different ethnic groups had the power, but it was formed around a religion and not a ethnos.

    The Nation of Jordan during its time was in control of East Jerusalem including the Old City. Where is the Temple Mount?
    And? It controls it today (under Israeli support).

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palest...onal_Authority
    This link disagrees with your statement.
    Nope, it reinforces it. Does the PNA rule over Israel? No it does not.

    What pattern?

    Daniel 2 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    42 As the toes of the feet were partly of iron and partly of pottery, so some of the kingdom will be strong and part of it will be brittle.


    Some strong, some brittle, there is no pattern.
    The patter stated within Dan 2 is that EACH following kingdom conquers the preceding one.
    Further that the pattern with regards to horns, is that they are a splitting of a kingdom under different rulers (as seen with the Dan 8 - Ram and Goat).

    Where does it EXPLICITLY state that the kingdoms of the ten horns will exist AT THE SAME TIME?
    I already quoted for you, but here you are again:
    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.

    That is enough for now. It is clear there are areas will will just need to agree to disagree. I believe I have given the evidence that both the Nation of Jordan and the Palestinian National Authority have or had rulership over portions of the Holy Land. That is all that is required. You may think more is needed. But the prophecies do not indicate this.
    Shalom,
    Gavriel
    You may chose to disagree, but you have not given evidence that either Jordan or the PNA ruled over Israel. All you provided is that they control a part of Israel.
    A lot more is required than you have provided. It all needs to fit.

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