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Thread: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

  1. #61

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    This link doesn't support what you are claiming.
    It simply shows that Jordan had governance over a part of Israel.
    It does NOT show Jordan ruling over all of Israel, nor that it rules all of Jerusalem.
    Where in the scripture does it say the kingdom has to rule over all of Israel? It doesn't. You are making an assumption. You are putting your own parameters to the prophecies.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Lots of places, if you paid attention to the prophecies, which confirm each other.
    The Crusaders ruled part of the Holy Land as did Britain under the UN mandate, are we to include them as well?
    No. We are not. The Crusaders were Christians. Great Britain is mostly a Christian nation as well, and even more so during the times they ruled over the Holy Land. They are both grafted into the vine, and as a result belong in the Holy Land as well. Muslims do not follow the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the same as the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Persians, Greeks or initially the Romans, though the Romans would begin converting to Christianity. Jews, of course do believe in the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. And Christians do too. The empires of the beast wage war against G-d's Holy People.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”


    The beast is characterized by waging war against the Lamb. This includes all the empires that have waged war against G-d's Holy People. All the empires of the beast wage war primarily against the Jews. But this can be Christians too as both can be the "called, chosen and faithful followers." Though I believe the Jewish people are more the key, as the Jewish people and the Holy Land are both keys to understanding Bible prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Daniel 2 does NOT indicate some of the Kingdoms would be strong and some weak, but that ALL the Feet and Toes kingdoms would have a strength as well as a weakness.
    Daniel 2 New International Version (NIV)
    42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.


    It doesn't say ALL will have both! This is an assumption. This is not a united peoples. The different Muslim kingdoms have been lead by Arabs, Syrians, Egyptians, Turks, etc.. Coincidence? You may think so. I do not. I also find it curious that there have been ten different Muslim ruling entities over some or all of the Holy Land. Again, it is your assumption that it must rule over all of the Holy Land. The prophecy simply is not clear in this area.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    If you noted that the preceding kingdoms were all led by a single ethnos, with that ethnicity's culture as the basis for the whole kingdom, the Caliphate differs in that different ethnic groups had the power, but it was formed around a religion and not a ethnos.
    It is the prophecy I just quoted that "the people with be a mixture." But it is Islam that unites this varied peoples as being a single head of the beast. It is the only one with ten horns. None of the other heads had the horns. We know this because the ten horns had not yet received their kingdoms at the time the Apostle John wrote Revelation. The seventh head had not come on the scene as well. The ten horns are from the seventh empire.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    And? It controls it today (under Israeli support).


    Nope, it reinforces it. Does the PNA rule over Israel? No it does not.
    It rules over some of the Holy Land. I believe that is all that required. You are free to disagree. But my main point is that if I am correct, then we are there. The seventh head and the 10 horns have already been revealed. The next thing is the rock not cut out by human hands that strikes the statue at the feet of iron and clay destroying it and the whole statue; which I believe is a spirit of war against G-d and His Holy Peoples. The whole warlike ways will be destroyed. If I am wrong the time is not that close. I believe the time is close, and possibly very close. But alas, I do not know the time. It could be this day or 100 years from now. That is for G-d the Father to know. The numbers under the alter are not yet completed (Fifth Seal).

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The patter stated within Dan 2 is that EACH following kingdom conquers the preceding one.
    Further that the pattern with regards to horns, is that they are a splitting of a kingdom under different rulers (as seen with the Dan 8 - Ram and Goat).
    And up to Rome you are right. But with Rome (legs of iron) the language in the prophecy is different. Many English translations wrongly put the Legs of Iron and the Feet and Toes of Iron and Clay as being one empire. And I can see by the language why some would translate things this way. But other English translations, including the English translation of the Hebrew Tanakh separate the legs from the feet. Also, as I previously pointed out, the Iron did not go away as the other elements that came before the iron. This is a clue that the iron empire is different that the gold, silver, or bronze empires.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I already quoted for you, but here you are again:
    Rev 17:12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.


    You may chose to disagree, but you have not given evidence that either Jordan or the PNA ruled over Israel. All you provided is that they control a part of Israel.
    A lot more is required than you have provided. It all needs to fit.
    It needs to fit your assumptions. The prophecy nowhere says that the kingdom must rule over all of Israel. That level of detail is simply not provided.

    I truly hope you are wrong about your interpretations and assumptions. It would mean there is a lot that needs to happen before the wedding of the Lamb. If I a right the wedding of the Lamb maybe close. And maybe very close. I pray that our lamps are full of oil. Are you ready?

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  2. #62
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Where in the scripture does it say the kingdom has to rule over all of Israel? It doesn't. You are making an assumption. You are putting your own parameters to the prophecies.
    When interpreting a prophecy we need to go by what is EXPLICITLY stated, and then use that to understand what is not.
    So in Dan 2 we are EXPLICITLY told that Nebuchadnezzar is the Head of Gold. Further that there is a kingdom which comes after which is the Chest and Arms of Silver.
    Now in determining what kingdom comes next, we have no EXPLICIT statement, instead we need to determine from what else is stated and shown what that kingdom is.
    The next kingdom was that of the Medes and Persians. You may notice it is called the kingdom of the Medes and Persians throughout scripture. The first king was Darius the Mede, who ruled over those of Israel.
    You may also have noticed that Nebuchadnezzar ruled over the ENTIRE land of Israel including ALL of Jerusalem.
    Now the kingdom of the Medes and Persians conquered that of the Babylonians.
    So we find a pattern shown, which is not EXPLICIT, but which we discover.
    The next kingdom is that of Bronze, Belly and Thighs.
    We note that just as the Medes and Persians had conquered the Babylonians, so the Greeks conquered the Medes and Persians. The Greeks also ruled over the ENTIRE land of Israel including Jerusalem.
    Now when we considered the Belly, this speaks of Alexander, and the Thighs speak specifically of the King of the North and the King of the South (Ptolemy and Seleucus).
    You will note that BOTH Ptolemaic and Seleucid kingdoms ruled over the ENTIRE land of Israel and Jerusalem.
    When we comes to the Legs of Iron, we find that the Romans conquered ALL the Greek kingdoms. Further they also ruled over the ENTIRE land of Israel including ALL of Jerusalem.
    Now when we come to the Feet, we find that the Caliphate conquered the Roman kingdom (that still existed) and they ruled over the ENTIRE land of Israel including Jerusalem.
    Therefore we have a CLEAR example repeated EVERY time, which confirms our understanding.
    The Caliphate is the Feet, and the Toes are the 10 kings yet to come.
    When interpreting prophecy we need to be CONSISTENT in our approach and base it on what is KNOWN to confirm what is not.
    So yes I am putting parameters, but these parameters are TRUE consistently.

    No. We are not. The Crusaders were Christians. Great Britain is mostly a Christian nation as well, and even more so during the times they ruled over the Holy Land. They are both grafted into the vine, and as a result belong in the Holy Land as well. Muslims do not follow the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, the same as the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Persians, Greeks or initially the Romans, though the Romans would begin converting to Christianity. Jews, of course do believe in the G-d of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob. And Christians do too. The empires of the beast wage war against G-d's Holy People.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    14 They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”


    The beast is characterized by waging war against the Lamb. This includes all the empires that have waged war against G-d's Holy People. All the empires of the beast wage war primarily against the Jews. But this can be Christians too as both can be the "called, chosen and faithful followers." Though I believe the Jewish people are more the key, as the Jewish people and the Holy Land are both keys to understanding Bible prophecy.
    You seem a bit clueless about the Crusaders. What happened when they conquered Jerusalem? They massacred a large number of inhabitants including the Jews who were there.
    The Crusaders were NOT grafted into the vine and neither is Great Britain. Further the point is that these kingdoms ruled OVER those of Israel, meaning those of Israel had no ruling themselves.
    Rev 17 is speaking of when Jesus returns.

    Daniel 2 New International Version (NIV)
    42 As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. 43 And just as you saw the iron mixed with baked clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.


    It doesn't say ALL will have both! This is an assumption. This is not a united peoples. The different Muslim kingdoms have been lead by Arabs, Syrians, Egyptians, Turks, etc.. Coincidence? You may think so. I do not. I also find it curious that there have been ten different Muslim ruling entities over some or all of the Holy Land. Again, it is your assumption that it must rule over all of the Holy Land. The prophecy simply is not clear in this area.
    Yes it DOES.
    It says the Toes were partly iron and partly clay. This does NOT mean one Toe is iron and one Toe is clay, for it lumps ALL the Toes together.
    They are a SINGLE kingdom which means they are united, yet they are also internally mixed and disunited. The point is that this kingdom is a MIXED kingdom - ONE kingdom, but which is NOT based on a single ethnic group, unlike the preceding kingdoms.
    There have NOT been ten different Muslim ruling entities over Israel, which is my point. There have been eight Caliphates. Jordan and the PNA do NOT rule over Israel.
    The prophecy IS clear on this point. It is about the beast ruling OVER Israel. This we see with Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans AND the Caliphates.
    The Caliphate IS the kingdom of the Feet, but NOT the toes.
    The Toes are a later kingdom LIKE the Feet.

    It is the prophecy I just quoted that "the people with be a mixture." But it is Islam that unites this varied peoples as being a single head of the beast. It is the only one with ten horns. None of the other heads had the horns. We know this because the ten horns had not yet received their kingdoms at the time the Apostle John wrote Revelation. The seventh head had not come on the scene as well. The ten horns are from the seventh empire.
    It was indeed Islam which united the Feet kingdoms.
    Did you consider what the TWO Feet are?
    Actually we aren't told which head has the 10 horns.

    It rules over some of the Holy Land. I believe that is all that required. You are free to disagree. But my main point is that if I am correct, then we are there. The seventh head and the 10 horns have already been revealed. The next thing is the rock not cut out by human hands that strikes the statue at the feet of iron and clay destroying it and the whole statue; which I believe is a spirit of war against G-d and His Holy Peoples. The whole warlike ways will be destroyed. If I am wrong the time is not that close. I believe the time is close, and possibly very close. But alas, I do not know the time. It could be this day or 100 years from now. That is for G-d the Father to know. The numbers under the alter are not yet completed (Fifth Seal).
    The 7th head has been revealed, but NOT the Ten horns.
    It IS a requirement for the beast to rule over Israel. This has been TRUE of EVERY beast, including the Caliphate.
    The time is close, but the 10 are yet to be revealed.

    And up to Rome you are right. But with Rome (legs of iron) the language in the prophecy is different. Many English translations wrongly put the Legs of Iron and the Feet and Toes of Iron and Clay as being one empire. And I can see by the language why some would translate things this way. But other English translations, including the English translation of the Hebrew Tanakh separate the legs from the feet. Also, as I previously pointed out, the Iron did not go away as the other elements that came before the iron. This is a clue that the iron empire is different that the gold, silver, or bronze empires.
    I don't see them as being one kingdom. However you err when you make the Feet and Toes one kingdom also.
    The feet are one and the Toes are another - however the composition of the Toes IS of the SAME kind of composition as the Feet.

    It needs to fit your assumptions. The prophecy nowhere says that the kingdom must rule over all of Israel. That level of detail is simply not provided.
    That level of detail IS provided. What makes it a beast? It is very simple, a beast is one which has dominion over the people and land of Israel.

    I truly hope you are wrong about your interpretations and assumptions. It would mean there is a lot that needs to happen before the wedding of the Lamb. If I a right the wedding of the Lamb maybe close. And maybe very close. I pray that our lamps are full of oil. Are you ready?
    Shalom,
    Gavriel
    There IS a lot to happen before the Wedding of the Lamb, but as I think the 7th seal has been blown, we are now in the period of the 144k being sealed, once that has happened then things are in the End Time.

  3. #63

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So yes I am putting parameters, but these parameters are TRUE consistently.
    We can go round and round. But we will have to agree to disagree. The continuation of iron into the feet is a clear indication that the parameters changed. You don't see the gold, silver, or bronze, past their parts in the statue.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You seem a bit clueless about the Crusaders. What happened when they conquered Jerusalem? They massacred a large number of inhabitants including the Jews who were there.
    The Crusaders were NOT grafted into the vine and neither is Great Britain. Further the point is that these kingdoms ruled OVER those of Israel, meaning those of Israel had no ruling themselves.
    Rev 17 is speaking of when Jesus returns.
    Clueless. Nice. The Crusaders were Christians. They had the misguided notion that if they retook the Holy Land that the Messiah would return. Clearly, they did more harm to Christendom than good. But that does not change the fact that they were Christians. I don't know too many perfect Christians. Do you?

    You are correct. These misguided Christians were slaughtering Jews too. That has been an very unfortunate trend throughout Christianity, the Inquisition, Nazis, etc.. But that doesn't change the fact that they are Christian nations. The Spanish, at the time of the Inquisition, was a Christian nation. Germany was predominantly a Christian nation too.

    Ironically, Jews and Muslims were allies during this time of the Crusades fighting against their common enemy, the Christians. But today Muslims and Jews would hardly be seen as allied. Seems like most Muslims want to destroy the nation of Israel.

    Romans 11:17 New International Version (NIV)
    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,


    The fact is that Christians, no matter how misguided, are still grafted into the vine which is Israel. Are you familiar with the idea of Sheep and Goat nations? Great Britain is primarily a Christian nation. It is one of the Sheep nations. Though like much of the Christian world's apostasy, it is today falling away from its Christian foundation.

    Thankfully, today spirit-filled Christians the world over are praying for Israel and for the peace of Jerusalem. This is the better attitude. And with this attitude, Jewish people, more and more are accepting their Jewish Messiah. The number of Messianic Jews are growing. Praise Adonai!


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Yes it DOES.
    It says the Toes were partly iron and partly clay. This does NOT mean one Toe is iron and one Toe is clay, for it lumps ALL the Toes together.
    That is your interpretation to fit your point of view. I see it differently. I see a fulfilled prophecy. You are waiting for some ten nation confederacy. I used to think that too until I saw the different Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Rashiduns. Now, I see the text differently. You can wait for your confederacy. I will look forward to the return of the Messiah.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    They are a SINGLE kingdom which means they are united, yet they are also internally mixed and disunited. The point is that this kingdom is a MIXED kingdom - ONE kingdom, but which is NOT based on a single ethnic group, unlike the preceding kingdoms.
    There have NOT been ten different Muslim ruling entities over Israel, which is my point. There have been eight Caliphates. Jordan and the PNA do NOT rule over Israel.
    No where in the prophecy does it say that the entities have to rule over it all. That is your interpretation trying to prove your point. The prophecy simply does not provide that detail. Since it doesn't provide that detail, then you are making an assumption. Assumptions typically don't work very well. I can demonstrate that ten distinct Muslim entities have ruled over all or some of the Holy Land. That is all that is required to fulfill the prophecy. Again, this is an area that we will need to agree to disagree.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The prophecy IS clear on this point. It is about the beast ruling OVER Israel. This we see with Babylonians, Persians, Greeks, Romans AND the Caliphates.
    The Caliphate IS the kingdom of the Feet, but NOT the toes.
    The Toes are a later kingdom LIKE the Feet.
    Again, your are making a lot of assumptions. You are reading more into it that the prophecies description.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It was indeed Islam which united the Feet kingdoms.
    Did you consider what the TWO Feet are?
    Actually we aren't told which head has the 10 horns.
    You are right the detail that the 10 horns are a part of the seventh head is not specific. However, there is a very good logical argument for it.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.


    There are only the seven empires. The Apostle John was living during the sixth (one is) empire, the Romans. There was one more to come. The seventh empire.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.


    The ten horns hadn't yet come either. The beast is a representation of all the empires that ruled over the Holy Land, and not just the seventh head. The only head remaining is the seventh head. The ten horns must be a part of the seventh head. Look at the ten toes in Daniel's prophecy. This is the final empire too. Is it a coincidence that there are 10 horns in the Revelation 17 prophecy and ten toes in the Daniel 2 prophecy? I don't think so. They are both prophecies pointing to the same thing. The Muslims! Oh, and did I mention that there have been 10 distinct Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land? Again, we can agree to disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The 7th head has been revealed, but NOT the Ten horns.
    It IS a requirement for the beast to rule over Israel. This has been TRUE of EVERY beast, including the Caliphate.
    The time is close, but the 10 are yet to be revealed.
    Could a ten nation confederacy rise to fulfill your interpretation? It is possible. This would make the ten Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land an interesting coincidence. But, I don't believe that there are too many coincidences out there. Listen, you are not alone in your point of view. What I am putting out is a very new idea. In fact, I know no one else putting this idea that the ten horns (ten toes) has already been fulfilled. But I do believe it needs to be considered.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I don't see them as being one kingdom. However you err when you make the Feet and Toes one kingdom also.
    The feet are one and the Toes are another - however the composition of the Toes IS of the SAME kind of composition as the Feet.
    No. We just disagree.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    That level of detail IS provided. What makes it a beast? It is very simple, a beast is one which has dominion over the people and land of Israel.


    There IS a lot to happen before the Wedding of the Lamb, but as I think the 7th seal has been blown, we are now in the period of the 144k being sealed, once that has happened then things are in the End Time.
    I believe that the completion of the numbers under the alter is all that is needed before the wedding of the Lamb.

    Also, I don't believe the sixth seal has been broken.

    Revelation 6 New International Version (NIV)
    12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.


    I don't recall this ever happening in our history.

    I do believe that the first five seals have been broken. Again, we are just waiting for the numbers under the alter to be complete (fifth seal).

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  4. #64
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    We can go round and round. But we will have to agree to disagree. The continuation of iron into the feet is a clear indication that the parameters changed. You don't see the gold, silver, or bronze, past their parts in the statue.
    Actually when you read Dan 7 you DO see the bronze in it. When you read Rev 17 you find the other Beasts in it too.
    Further the Iron Legs are connected with the Roman Kingdom NOT the Caliphate, so I am not sure what you understand the Iron to be in the Feet.
    The Iron speaks of an attribute of the Kingdom, a strength, yet in the Feet though there is strength there is also weakness. It is NOT a continuation at all. Rather an aspect which is also found in the Feet and Toes kingdom.

    Clueless. Nice. The Crusaders were Christians. They had the misguided notion that if they retook the Holy Land that the Messiah would return. Clearly, they did more harm to Christendom than good. But that does not change the fact that they were Christians. I don't know too many perfect Christians. Do you?
    Some Crusaders were Christians, some saw it as a chance to gain power. The point though is that Christians are NOT Jews (except a small number).
    Further I don't know of any Crusaders who thought by taking the Holy Land the Messiah would return.
    The key point though was there relationship with Israel.

    You are correct. These misguided Christians were slaughtering Jews too. That has been an very unfortunate trend throughout Christianity, the Inquisition, Nazis, etc.. But that doesn't change the fact that they are Christian nations. The Spanish, at the time of the Inquisition, was a Christian nation. Germany was predominantly a Christian nation too.
    Rome was a "Christian" nation when it was ruling from Constantinople. However this was STILL seen as a Leg of Iron and a Beast.
    They ruled over ALL of Israel including Jerusalem.
    You need to understand WHAT the beast is in relationship to Daniel and his people.

    Ironically, Jews and Muslims were allies during this time of the Crusades fighting against their common enemy, the Christians. But today Muslims and Jews would hardly be seen as allied. Seems like most Muslims want to destroy the nation of Israel.
    Indeed

    Romans 11:17 New International Version (NIV)
    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,


    The fact is that Christians, no matter how misguided, are still grafted into the vine which is Israel. Are you familiar with the idea of Sheep and Goat nations? Great Britain is primarily a Christian nation. It is one of the Sheep nations. Though like much of the Christian world's apostasy, it is today falling away from its Christian foundation.
    Nope, not a single Christian is grafted into Israel. We are grafted into the Vine, then we are grafted into Jesus NOT Israel.

    Thankfully, today spirit-filled Christians the world over are praying for Israel and for the peace of Jerusalem. This is the better attitude. And with this attitude, Jewish people, more and more are accepting their Jewish Messiah. The number of Messianic Jews are growing. Praise Adonai!
    Indeed we should be praying for Israel and the people of that land and for its peace.

    That is your interpretation to fit your point of view. I see it differently. I see a fulfilled prophecy. You are waiting for some ten nation confederacy. I used to think that too until I saw the different Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Rashiduns. Now, I see the text differently. You can wait for your confederacy. I will look forward to the return of the Messiah.
    No, I have quoted scripture which EXPLICITLY states that they exist at the SAME time. I am not forcing anything to fit my interpretation. I am quite happy to adjust my interpretation to fit scripture. You have don't seem happy to do this. I have considered your idea, but it doesn't actually go with what is stated. The Caliphate is the Feet and NOT the Toes.

    No where in the prophecy does it say that the entities have to rule over it all. That is your interpretation trying to prove your point. The prophecy simply does not provide that detail. Since it doesn't provide that detail, then you are making an assumption. Assumptions typically don't work very well. I can demonstrate that ten distinct Muslim entities have ruled over all or some of the Holy Land. That is all that is required to fulfill the prophecy. Again, this is an area that we will need to agree to disagree.
    Actually the ENTIRE prophecy DOES require that. It isn't an assumption beyond what is stated.
    You also CANNOT demonstrate 10 distinct Muslim entities. You can show 8, plus Jordan which is a country and PNA which isn't even that.

    Again, your are making a lot of assumptions. You are reading more into it that the prophecies description.
    I am not the one who is making an assumption other than what is stated. If you could actually say what in my assumption does NOT fit the prophecy, THEN you have an argument worth noting. To say I assume, is just lazy for saying I have provided an interpretation which fits, but which you disagree with because it isn't matching yours. Any interpretation requires assumptions. You are ASSUMING that the 10 Toes are Muslim, yet ignore the Feet and ignore EXPLICIT scripture.

    You are right the detail that the 10 horns are a part of the seventh head is not specific. However, there is a very good logical argument for it.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    10 They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for only a little while.

    There are only the seven empires. The Apostle John was living during the sixth (one is) empire, the Romans. There was one more to come. The seventh empire.
    Indeed there are 7, yet the AC's kingdom is NONE of the 7 heads, but an 8th, yet OF the 7.
    The AC's kingdom is NOT the 7th head either.
    You need to recognise this TRUTH.

    Revelation 17 New International Version (NIV)
    12 “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. 13 They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.


    The ten horns hadn't yet come either. The beast is a representation of all the empires that ruled over the Holy Land, and not just the seventh head. The only head remaining is the seventh head. The ten horns must be a part of the seventh head. Look at the ten toes in Daniel's prophecy. This is the final empire too. Is it a coincidence that there are 10 horns in the Revelation 17 prophecy and ten toes in the Daniel 2 prophecy? I don't think so. They are both prophecies pointing to the same thing. The Muslims! Oh, and did I mention that there have been 10 distinct Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land? Again, we can agree to disagree.
    I agree that the 10 horns haven't come yet.
    The beast is indeed a representation of ALL the kingdoms.
    The 7th head is yet to come, but the 7th head is NOT the 10 horns. They are distinct from each other.
    The 10 toes are indeed the 10 horns.
    Yet note the 10 Toes are NOT the 2 Feet.
    The 10 horns are NOT the 7th head.
    I am not willing to agree to disagree as what you are proposing doesn't match scripture. If it did THEN I could agree to disagree.

    Could a ten nation confederacy rise to fulfill your interpretation? It is possible. This would make the ten Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land an interesting coincidence. But, I don't believe that there are too many coincidences out there. Listen, you are not alone in your point of view. What I am putting out is a very new idea. In fact, I know no one else putting this idea that the ten horns (ten toes) has already been fulfilled. But I do believe it needs to be considered.
    Firstly there have NOT been 10 Muslim kingdoms ruling over Israel. Further as stated in rev and shown in Dan 2 and also in Dan 7 these 10 are ALL at the SAME time.
    Secondly, what you are putting out there isn't a completely new idea. It is simply one that is gaining recognition. What people are recognising is that the Feet and Toes were NOT Rome.
    I have actually read somewhere on this forum the idea about the 10 Toes already fulfilled.

    No. We just disagree.
    To what are you disagreeing? The Feet and the Toes are BOTH of the same composition.

    I believe that the completion of the numbers under the alter is all that is needed before the wedding of the Lamb.
    That won't be completed UNTIL the GT is completed.

    Also, I don't believe the sixth seal has been broken.

    Revelation 6 New International Version (NIV)
    12 I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, 13 and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as figs drop from a fig tree when shaken by a strong wind. 14 The heavens receded like a scroll being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place.


    I don't recall this ever happening in our history.
    I do believe that the first five seals have been broken. Again, we are just waiting for the numbers under the alter to be complete (fifth seal).
    Shalom,
    Gavriel
    Actually this sort of thing happened when Atomic bombs were dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.
    The earth's orbit was changed slightly.

  5. #65

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Nope, not a single Christian is grafted into Israel. We are grafted into the Vine, then we are grafted into Jesus NOT Israel.

    You and I are simply not going to agree. We can go round and round trying to prove our points. I believe that the ten toes and the ten horns have been fulfilled in our history. You don't. As I previous posted, I once agreed with your point of view, until I saw the fulfillment in our history. I lean on history. Ten Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Rashiduns, the first Muslin Kingdom in the 7th Century AD, fulfilling both the ten horns and ten toes prophecy. But, I get it. You don't agree. I am sure there are many out there that do not agree with me. But the reason I write this is not to convince you, or the many others that are looking for some ten nation confederacy to rise. I write this for others that may be reading this to consider the history and to judge for themselves.


    But the above comment simply has to be answered:


    Romans 11 New International Version (NIV)

    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
    13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruitsis holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,


    Christians are "a wild olive shoot that has been grafted in to the olive root. The olive tree is Israel. We Christians have been spiritually grafted in. I believe Paul is very clear in his meaning.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  6. #66
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    You and I are simply not going to agree. We can go round and round trying to prove our points. I believe that the ten toes and the ten horns have been fulfilled in our history. You don't. As I previous posted, I once agreed with your point of view, until I saw the fulfillment in our history. I lean on history. Ten Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Rashiduns, the first Muslin Kingdom in the 7th Century AD, fulfilling both the ten horns and ten toes prophecy. But, I get it. You don't agree. I am sure there are many out there that do not agree with me. But the reason I write this is not to convince you, or the many others that are looking for some ten nation confederacy to rise. I write this for others that may be reading this to consider the history and to judge for themselves.
    Funny thing is that I also lean on history. But history has to match prophecy. If it doesn't then either we have history wrong or we have the prophecy wrong.
    We KNOW 100% that 10 Muslim entities have NOT ruled over all of the Holy Land. And that NEITHER Jordan nor the PNA is a Muslim entity but a National entity. That national entity may be 99% Muslim, but it is NOT a Muslim entity. This is a CLEAR differentiator between the Feet and the preceding Legs.
    So you IGNORE two EXPLICIT statements in scripture for your claim. I can't agree with that.
    The second of course being that we are shown AND told in multiple prophecies that the 10 kingdoms are AT THE SAME TIME.
    Dan 2 shows it, Dan 7 shows it and explains it, Rev 17 shows it and explains it.
    So I am happy to leave this for others to judge.

    But the above comment simply has to be answered:
    Romans 11 New International Version (NIV)
    11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all!Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
    13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruitsis holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
    17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root,
    [COLOR=#000000][FONT=&]

    Christians are "a wild olive shoot that has been grafted in to the olive root. The olive tree is Israel. We Christians have been spiritually grafted in. I believe Paul is very clear in his meaning.
    Christians are indeed grafted into the root. However the root is NOT Israel. This is where you go wrong.
    You see the root IS Jesus. He is what is Holy.
    Israel are the natural branches, just as Christians are the wild branches.
    We receive our nourishing NOT from the branches but from the root.
    Jesus makes a similar statement in John 15. He is the Vine, we are the branches. Israel is NOT the Vine, but are natural branches of that Vine.
    We do NOT replace Israel, but are grafted in among the others (those of Israel).
    Paul is indeed very clear.

  7. #67

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Funny thing is that I also lean on history. But history has to match prophecy. If it doesn't then either we have history wrong or we have the prophecy wrong.
    We KNOW 100% that 10 Muslim entities have NOT ruled over all of the Holy Land. And that NEITHER Jordan nor the PNA is a Muslim entity but a National entity. That national entity may be 99% Muslim, but it is NOT a Muslim entity. This is a CLEAR differentiator between the Feet and the preceding Legs.
    Round and round we go.

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today

    We know 100% that 10 Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land. Your claim that it must rule over ALL is not in the prophecy. That is a criteria you are adding to the prophecy.

    The Nation of Jordan is a Muslim nation. The Palestinian National Authority is a Muslim entity as well. I believe most people would accept this as fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    So you IGNORE two EXPLICIT statements in scripture for your claim. I can't agree with that.
    Where does it EXPLICITLY say that the Muslim entities must rule over ALL of the Holy Land?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    The second of course being that we are shown AND told in multiple prophecies that the 10 kingdoms are AT THE SAME TIME. Dan 2 shows it, Dan 7 shows it and explains it, Rev 17 shows it and explains it. So I am happy to leave this for others to judge.
    Again, you're reading into the scripture. Show me EXPLICITLY where the prophecy says that the ten horns or the ten toes are ruling AT THE SAME TIME?

    So where in Dan 2 does it shows it? Dan 7's reference is vague at best, and doesn't follow the other similar prophecies. Rev 17 is not EXPLICIT either.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Christians are indeed grafted into the root. However the root is NOT Israel. This is where you go wrong.
    You see the root IS Jesus. He is what is Holy.
    Israel are the natural branches, just as Christians are the wild branches.
    We receive our nourishing NOT from the branches but from the root.
    Jesus makes a similar statement in John 15. He is the Vine, we are the branches. Israel is NOT the Vine, but are natural branches of that Vine.
    We do NOT replace Israel, but are grafted in among the others (those of Israel).
    Paul is indeed very clear.
    Just to be very clear. Replacement theology is wrong. In no way has the Christians replaced the Jews.

    I am not going to disagree too much with your overall concept. It is a good one.

    Jeremiah 11:16 New International Version (NIV)
    16 The Lord called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form.


    But, the Olive Tree has long been a representation of Israel.

    Paul referred to Christians as a "wild olive shoot" that has been grafted in. Branches, roots, etc. are all a part of the same tree, the same olive tree in this case.

    Christianity is an extension of Judaism. We are together. It is sad that over the centuries Jews have been persecuted by Christians. This persecution has lead to greater separation between Jews and Christians. Thankfully, today many Jews are accepting their Jewish Messiah.

    The point is, any rulership over the Holy Land by either Jews or grafted in Christians would not be in any way a part of the beast, whether they be Crusaders or Great Britain.

    And while I am thinking about it. The Roman Empire was pagan when it conquered the Holy Land, and when it split during the time of the Emperor Diocletian. The Roman Empire did not accept Christianity until Constantine which came after Diocletian's split, though it wasn't long afterwards.

    You say that history is important to you. Then what about this piece of history?

    Pompey the Great conquered Jerusalem and the Holy Land in 63 BC. Diocletian splt the Roman Empire around 285 AD. This is about 348 years.
    From Diocletian's split to the Rashidun Muslim victory over the Byzantine Romans at the Battle of Ajnadayn in 634 AD, ending Rome's rule over the Holy Land is a period of about 349 years.

    348 years one leg. 349 years the other leg. I do not know the months involved in any of this. The split could possibly be even more precise. But either way this is way too coincidental to be an accident. Rome ruled the Holy Land in two legs over a nearly equal period of time.

    There are manuscripts of Daniel that date back to over a hundred years before Pompey's conquest of the Holy Land. This is a level of detail and precision about the Roman Empire in prophecy that should not be ignored.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

    P.S. At least we agree the seventh empire are the Muslims. We need to latch on to that. As many, if not most who study Bible prophecy, do not agree. We disagree about the ten horns or ten toes. You could be right that some ten nations, that by the way aren't caliphates, will unite in the future. I just want to put out there what has already happened in our history. This should be considered as well.

  8. #68
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Round and round we go.
    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today
    We know 100% that 10 Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land. Your claim that it must rule over ALL is not in the prophecy. That is a criteria you are adding to the prophecy.
    The Nation of Jordan is a Muslim nation. The Palestinian National Authority is a Muslim entity as well. I believe most people would accept this as fact.
    I know you have claimed this - and I have no real disagreement with the 8 Caliphate kingdoms.
    Most people though don't know that around 6% of the population of Jordan is Christian.
    In Syria it is around 10%, in Iraq it was around 5% and in Egypt it is around 15%.

    However what is a key difference between the Caliphate and Jordan or the PNA is clearly seen in the name.
    The Caliphate claims the right to rule based upon being an Islamic nation.
    Jordan does NOT. It is based around the claim of the Jordanian people.
    The PNA is the government for the Palestinian people.
    IOW they are NOT Muslim nations. They are nations of which the people are predominantly Muslim.
    Iran claims to be an Islamic Republic.
    The closest to an Islamic nation was ISIS. Its foundation as a nation is Islam and NOT as a nationality.

    Where does it EXPLICITLY say that the Muslim entities must rule over ALL of the Holy Land?
    I said there are TWO explicit statements in scripture which you have ignored. Nowhere does it say even ONE Muslim entity will rule over Israel. That is YOUR assumption, which has some basis in history.

    Again, you're reading into the scripture. Show me EXPLICITLY where the prophecy says that the ten horns or the ten toes are ruling AT THE SAME TIME?
    So where in Dan 2 does it shows it? Dan 7's reference is vague at best, and doesn't follow the other similar prophecies. Rev 17 is not EXPLICIT either.
    I did and you ignored it.
    First in Dan 2 we have 10 Toes which are described as ONE kingdom:
    42 And as the toes of the feet were partly iron and partly clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong and partly brittle.
    43 As you saw the iron mixed with soft clay, so they will mix with one another in marriage, but they will not hold together, just as iron does not mix with clay.
    44 And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that shall never be destroyed, nor shall the kingdom be left to another people. It shall break in pieces all these kingdoms and bring them to an end, and it shall stand forever,

    Here we have the toes stated as "the kingdom", then we have in the days of those kings (which groups them together as at the same time, and at the time God destroys them). Otherwise it would be in the day of the last king or last toe.

    In Dan 7 it is not vague but quite explicit:
    7 ...it had ten horns.
    8 I considered the horns, and behold, there came up among them another horn, a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. And behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth speaking great things.

    Here in the description they are stated as being on the beast at the SAME time, JUST like in Dan 8 where there are 4 horns in place of the one horn.
    Now ignoring that, we also have an 11th horn which appears, coming up AMONG them, which means at least TWO of the 10 are STILL in existence for the 11th to appear. It also means that the AC is NOT the 10 horns either.
    Yet we are also told that THREE are plucked up, which requires them to be in existence AT THE SAME TIME as the 11th which is plucking them up. So now we have a minimum of THREE.

    Yet further in Dan 7 we read this:
    24 As for the ten horns,
    out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise,
    and another shall arise after them;
    he shall be different from the former ones,
    and shall put down three kings.

    Now here we have a clear chronology - the TEN horns arise OUT OF the 4th beast. AFTER they have arisen and 11th arises, which puts down THREE of those TEN.
    This is NOT vague but quite clear, and matches what we read in Rev 17.

    12 And the ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have not yet received royal power, but they are to receive authority as kings for one hour, together with the beast.
    13 These are of one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the beast.

    We are EXPLICITLY told they are TOGETHER with the beast. Moreover we are told that they hand over their power to the beast. This requires them to be AT THE SAME TIME as the beast.
    So we have a clear chronology of the 10 kings who arise out of the 7th beast, and then those 10 give their power to the beast who arises among them.

    Scripture is quite clear in this.

    Just to be very clear. Replacement theology is wrong. In no way has the Christians replaced the Jews.
    Agreement is good.

    I am not going to disagree too much with your overall concept. It is a good one.

    Jeremiah 11:16 New International Version (NIV)
    16 The Lord called you a thriving olive tree with fruit beautiful in form.

    But, the Olive Tree has long been a representation of Israel.
    Personally I wouldn't use the NIV for any serious study.
    However the question here is not is Israel PART of the Olive Tree, the question is WHAT part? The whole?
    No for Jesus is the Root.

    Paul referred to Christians as a "wild olive shoot" that has been grafted in. Branches, roots, etc. are all a part of the same tree, the same olive tree in this case.
    Agreed, but in the example Paul gives he has Israel being the natural branches which are removed (yet not all).
    What is the Root of the Olive Tree?

    Christianity is an extension of Judaism. We are together. It is sad that over the centuries Jews have been persecuted by Christians. This persecution has lead to greater separation between Jews and Christians. Thankfully, today many Jews are accepting their Jewish Messiah.
    I wouldn't say an extension, but an increase. In Genesis 12 God's plan was that through Abraham ALL nations would be blessed.
    We are added into the family of faith.

    The point is, any rulership over the Holy Land by either Jews or grafted in Christians would not be in any way a part of the beast, whether they be Crusaders or Great Britain.
    And while I am thinking about it. The Roman Empire was pagan when it conquered the Holy Land, and when it split during the time of the Emperor Diocletian. The Roman Empire did not accept Christianity until Constantine which came after Diocletian's split, though it wasn't long afterwards.
    Sorry, but for the majority of the rule from Constantinople, it was officially Christian.
    there is no Christian aspect to Dan 2, 7 or Rev 17 - these ALL focus on the Jews.

    You say that history is important to you. Then what about this piece of history?
    Pompey the Great conquered Jerusalem and the Holy Land in 63 BC. Diocletian splt the Roman Empire around 285 AD. This is about 348 years.
    From Diocletian's split to the Rashidun Muslim victory over the Byzantine Romans at the Battle of Ajnadayn in 634 AD, ending Rome's rule over the Holy Land is a period of about 349 years.
    348 years one leg. 349 years the other leg. I do not know the months involved in any of this. The split could possibly be even more precise. But either way this is way too coincidental to be an accident. Rome ruled the Holy Land in two legs over a nearly equal period of time.
    Indeed you presented this before.
    Yet from around 37 BC to 7 AD Israel was a client kingdom rather than direct rule.
    Also we know this:
    In 603, Pope Gregory I commissioned the Ravennate Abbot Probus, who was previously Gregory's emissary at the Lombard court, to build a hospital in Jerusalem to treat and care for Christian pilgrims to the Holy Land. In 800, Charlemagne enlarged Probus' hospital and added a library to it, but it was destroyed in 1005 by Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah along with three thousand other buildings in Jerusalem.
    From the days of Constantine until the Arab conquest in 638, despite intensive lobbying by Judeo-Byzantines, Jews were forbidden to enter the city.

    There are manuscripts of Daniel that date back to over a hundred years before Pompey's conquest of the Holy Land. This is a level of detail and precision about the Roman Empire in prophecy that should not be ignored.
    Indeed. I am not specifically disagreeing with you about the Legs of Iron. I am digging into the Feet and the Toes.

    The Feet and Toes are TWO separate kingdoms, yet united, for the Toes are of the SAME composition as the Feet.
    If you have the FIRST Toe as the Caliphate, then what do you have as the Feet?

    P.S. At least we agree the seventh empire are the Muslims. We need to latch on to that. As many, if not most who study Bible prophecy, do not agree. We disagree about the ten horns or ten toes. You could be right that some ten nations, that by the way aren't caliphates, will unite in the future. I just want to put out there what has already happened in our history. This should be considered as well.
    Yes, the 7th head (which I also see as the Feet) is indeed the Caliphate.
    Further what we probably agree on, is that the general area of land over which the 10 horns will rule, will be around the same area that the previous beasts ruled.
    I think Israel itself won't be ruled in its entirety UNTIL the AC is known.

  9. #69

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I know you have claimed this - and I have no real disagreement with the 8 Caliphate kingdoms.
    Most people though don't know that around 6% of the population of Jordan is Christian.
    In Syria it is around 10%, in Iraq it was around 5% and in Egypt it is around 15%.

    However what is a key difference between the Caliphate and Jordan or the PNA is clearly seen in the name.
    The Caliphate claims the right to rule based upon being an Islamic nation.
    Jordan does NOT. It is based around the claim of the Jordanian people.
    The PNA is the government for the Palestinian people.
    IOW they are NOT Muslim nations. They are nations of which the people are predominantly Muslim.
    Iran claims to be an Islamic Republic.
    The closest to an Islamic nation was ISIS. Its foundation as a nation is Islam and NOT as a nationality.
    Your argument about the 6% of Jordanians are Christian is specious at best. Coptic Christians have lived in Egypt since the time of the first Rashidun Muslim empire, the first Muslim entity to rule over the Holy Land. None of the Caliphate's population were 100% Muslim. The reality is that the Nation of Jordan ruled over portions of the Holy Land. They also warred against the new nation of Israel in the 1948 War of Independence, the 1967 Six Day war, and the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The Nation of Jordan is a part of the seventh empire, the Muslim empire. 25% of the world today is Muslim. They are all a part of the seventh empire.


    1. Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2. Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3. Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4. Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5. Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6. Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7. Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8. Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9. Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10. Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today


    For the sake of others reading this post I am posting this again.

    I have no clue what the future will hold. Neither do you or anyone else. But I see these ten Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land and I say, " Hmm, isn't that interesting. " Could this be some great coincidence? Maybe. I don't know.

    You seem to be looking for some ten nation confederacy to ally with the antichrist. You see the ten horns and ten toes as separate in some way than from the seventh empire, the Muslims. Yet, you talk about the 8 caliphates. That would mean two more caliphates would have to rise to rule over the Holy Land to make ten, or will there be a ten nation confederacy? I am confused with some of your points. Logically, i don't see two more caliphates rising in our modern times. ISIS tried to form a caliphate. What happened to them? No where in the prophecy does it say that the horns or toes have to be a caliphate. It is not a good idea to add criteria to the prophecies when the prophecies themselves lack the detail. That is reading into the text something that is not there, or an eisegesis approach. I prefer an exegesis approach and just take what the Bible is actually giving us.

    Is there things I don't understand? Yes. There is a portion of Daniel 7 that I am uncertain about when looking at our history; and it doesn't align with other similar prophecies. For instance, the uprooted horns is nowhere in the Daniel 2 or the Revelation 17 prophecies. I am uncertain how that will play out. I am only looking at what can been seen from our history, and I am pointing out for all to consider. Could it be that a Muslim terrorist organization has usurped the authority of the Muslim entities that remain on the current world stage? Maybe. Again, I am not certain about this one. I am certain that ten different Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the 7th century Muslim conquest of the Holy Land.

    I too once believed that a ten nation confederacy would rise. But they were nations in our modern world, for we are living in a time when nations, not caliphates, or kingdoms, or empires. Nations are the world norm. But now I do not see a ten nation confederacy.

    There are unfulfilled prophecies for sure. Mystery Babylon has not been destroyed to the point no one will ever live there again. Will an antichrist rise to wage war against the saints? Possibly.

    Has there already been an eighth king? I can see fulfillment in the prophecy with Sheikh Osama bin Laden. He was seen by many in the Muslim world as their king. As the leader of Al-Qaeda on 9/11, I can see fulfillment. But then again, another could rise to add another plague to the Harlot City. I truly don't know.

    The events in World War II was not the breaking of the sixth seal. The sixth seal has not been broken. This is the wrath of the Lamb. It has not yet started. I bring this up, because historically that is where we are in the time line of prophetic events fulfilled in our history. I do believe the first five seals have been broken in light of historical fulfillment. The sixth seal is next. All that needs to happen is for the numbers under the alter to be complete.

    My main theme is that the time may be very near. We need to be ready. Are you ready?

    I believe that everything in Bible Prophecy that needed to happen, before the gathering of the elect from the four corners of the earth, has happened. Again, are you ready to be gathered. For there will be those found to not have oil in their lamps. They will miss the wedding of the Lamb. Do you have oil in your lamp?

    I have no doubt you will write some lengthy post to reply point by point to all this. But for now, I am done. I leave this for others.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  10. #70
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Your argument about the 6% of Jordanians are Christian is specious at best. Coptic Christians have lived in Egypt since the time of the first Rashidun Muslim empire, the first Muslim entity to rule over the Holy Land. None of the Caliphate's population were 100% Muslim. The reality is that the Nation of Jordan ruled over portions of the Holy Land. They also warred against the new nation of Israel in the 1948 War of Independence, the 1967 Six Day war, and the 1973 Yom Kippur war. The Nation of Jordan is a part of the seventh empire, the Muslim empire. 25% of the world today is Muslim. They are all a part of the seventh empire.
    What you don't seem to have grasped is that with the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate there has been NO further Caliphates.
    The Caliphate was the 7th head, on this we agree.
    Where we differ is that you think the 10 horns are ALSO the 7th head. They aren't. They maybe ON the 7th head, but when we look at the symbology used in Daniel so we find yur claim doesn't fit.

    I have no clue what the future will hold. Neither do you or anyone else. But I see these ten Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land and I say, " Hmm, isn't that interesting. " Could this be some great coincidence? Maybe. I don't know.
    We know who knows the future. Further He has revealed many things to us.
    IF there were 10 Muslim entities which had ruled over Israel, THEN I would say "hmm this is interesting."
    However they have NOT been 10, ONLY 8.
    Moreover ALL the 8 Caliphates ruled over the whole land including all of Jerusalem. This was also true of every other kingdom which we agree were the other heads of the beast.
    This is NOT true of EITHER Jordan or the PNA.

    [QUOTE]You seem to be looking for some ten nation confederacy to ally with the antichrist. You see the ten horns and ten toes as separate in some way than from the seventh empire, the Muslims. Yet, you talk about the 8 caliphates. That would mean two more caliphates would have to rise to rule over the Holy Land to make ten, or will there be a ten nation confederacy? I am confused with some of your points. Logically, i don't see two more caliphates rising in our modern times. ISIS tried to form a caliphate. What happened to them? No where in the prophecy does it say that the horns or toes have to be a caliphate. It is not a good idea to add criteria to the prophecies when the prophecies themselves lack the detail. That is reading into the text something that is not there, or an eisegesis approach. I prefer an exegesis approach and just take what the Bible is actually giving us. /QUOTE]
    You are creating a strawman argument here.
    The number of Caliphates is irrelevant, for what makes it the 7th head IS that they are a Caliphate. Just as it is irrelevant how many Caesars there were in the Roman empire, or how many kings in all the different Greek kingdoms, or how many Persian kings.
    The 10 horns are NOT the Caliphate. They rule (it would seem) where the Caliphate ruled.
    I agree that NOWHERE states the 10 horns have to be a Caliphate.
    However, we are told EXPLICITLY that the Toes are of the SAME composition as the Feet. As the Feet are a religious kingdom, rather than a national one, so it follows that the Toes would be of the same kind as the Feet - thus a kingdom not on national lines but either on religious or some other principle.
    Why did ISIS fail? Because the times are in God's hands.
    It is funny you claim exegesis but then PUSH a Caliphate. This is because you recognise that there is REAL world connection between prophecy and history. yet when I o this, you complain it is eisegesis.
    I take EXACTLY what the Bible is giving us, and reject your idea of the 10 entities BECAUSE exegetically they do NOT fit.
    Even where there 10 Caliphates, it still would NOT exegetically fit.
    Why not, because as I have shown you from EXPLICIT scripture, there is a minimum of 3 kings which MUST reign at the same time in order for the AC to uproot them. Further we are told in Rev 17 that these 10 are ALL in power at the SAME time.
    So though I understand your claim I have to reject it as it does NOT match scripture.

    Is there things I don't understand? Yes. There is a portion of Daniel 7 that I am uncertain about when looking at our history; and it doesn't align with other similar prophecies. For instance, the uprooted horns is nowhere in the Daniel 2 or the Revelation 17 prophecies. I am uncertain how that will play out. I am only looking at what can been seen from our history, and I am pointing out for all to consider. Could it be that a Muslim terrorist organization has usurped the authority of the Muslim entities that remain on the current world stage? Maybe. Again, I am not certain about this one. I am certain that ten different Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the 7th century Muslim conquest of the Holy Land.
    Why does it have to be exactly the same? Can it fit? Yes. Is Dan 7 therefore giving us something which Dan 2 and Rev 17 don't? Yes.
    We need to put them together to get the COMPLETE picture.
    What you are certain of I disagree with as it isn't correct.

    I too once believed that a ten nation confederacy would rise. But they were nations in our modern world, for we are living in a time when nations, not caliphates, or kingdoms, or empires. Nations are the world norm. But now I do not see a ten nation confederacy.
    It states 10 rulers, does it have to be nations? No, but they do have to have real power.

    The events in World War II was not the breaking of the sixth seal. The sixth seal has not been broken. This is the wrath of the Lamb. It has not yet started. I bring this up, because historically that is where we are in the time line of prophetic events fulfilled in our history. I do believe the first five seals have been broken in light of historical fulfillment. The sixth seal is next. All that needs to happen is for the numbers under the alter to be complete.
    The 6th seal is NOT the wrath of the Lamb.
    So many people stumble on this.
    God does NOT say this is His wrath - it is PEOPLE who mistakenly CLAIM it is the wrath of the Lamb.
    I can understand that people may not agree that Atomic war is not the 6th seal, but I will disagree with anyone who claims the 6th seal is the actual Lamb's wrath.

    My main theme is that the time may be very near. We need to be ready. Are you ready?
    I believe that everything in Bible Prophecy that needed to happen, before the gathering of the elect from the four corners of the earth, has happened. Again, are you ready to be gathered. For there will be those found to not have oil in their lamps. They will miss the wedding of the Lamb. Do you have oil in your lamp?
    I have no doubt you will write some lengthy post to reply point by point to all this. But for now, I am done. I leave this for others.
    Shalom,
    Gavriel
    I get the impression you are suggesting a Pre-Trib rapture.
    It is not happening. We do need to be ready, but we need to be ready for tribulation.

  11. #71

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    What you don't seem to have grasped is that with the fall of the Ottoman Caliphate there has been NO further Caliphates.
    The Caliphate was the 7th head, on this we agree.
    Where we differ is that you think the 10 horns are ALSO the 7th head. They aren't. They maybe ON the 7th head, but when we look at the symbology used in Daniel so we find yur claim doesn't fit.
    Could ten new entities rise to fit your interpretation of the prophecies? Sure. My point has always been that the fact ten different Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land. This is a fact that should not be ignored.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    We know who knows the future. Further He has revealed many things to us.
    And He is the only one that truly knows our future and timing of events. However, revelation occurs when it is fulfilled by our history. Some ten nation confederacy rising is not in our history. And because of this, it is conjecture at best. However, ten separate Muslim entities that has risen to rule over some or all of the Holy Land is not conjecture. It is real. It has happened.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IF there were 10 Muslim entities which had ruled over Israel, THEN I would say "hmm this is interesting."
    However they have NOT been 10, ONLY 8.
    Moreover ALL the 8 Caliphates ruled over the whole land including all of Jerusalem. This was also true of every other kingdom which we agree were the other heads of the beast.
    This is NOT true of EITHER Jordan or the PNA.
    Round and round we go again. You are placing your own criteria to the prophecy. By the way, the Nation of Jordan ruled over Jerusalem. The Palestinian National Authority rules over a portion of Jerusalem.

    I previously said, "You seem to be looking for some ten nation confederacy to ally with the antichrist. You see the ten horns and ten toes as separate in some way than from the seventh empire, the Muslims. Yet, you talk about the 8 caliphates. That would mean two more caliphates would have to rise to rule over the Holy Land to make ten, or will there be a ten nation confederacy? I am confused with some of your points. Logically, i don't see two more caliphates rising in our modern times. ISIS tried to form a caliphate. What happened to them? No where in the prophecy does it say that the horns or toes have to be a caliphate. It is not a good idea to add criteria to the prophecies when the prophecies themselves lack the detail. That is reading into the text something that is not there, or an eisegesis approach. I prefer an exegesis approach and just take what the Bible is actually giving us."
    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You are creating a strawman argument here.
    The number of Caliphates is irrelevant, for what makes it the 7th head IS that they are a Caliphate. Just as it is irrelevant how many Caesars there were in the Roman empire, or how many kings in all the different Greek kingdoms, or how many Persian kings.
    The 10 horns are NOT the Caliphate. They rule (it would seem) where the Caliphate ruled.
    I agree that NOWHERE states the 10 horns have to be a Caliphate.
    However, we are told EXPLICITLY that the Toes are of the SAME composition as the Feet. As the Feet are a religious kingdom, rather than a national one, so it follows that the Toes would be of the same kind as the Feet - thus a kingdom not on national lines but either on religious or some other principle.
    It is a strawman argument only if you believe that the ten horns and toes have yet to appear in our history. Clearly that is your deep seated belief. Because of what has already happened in our history, I now hold to a different point of view. I believe some of the horns and toes where Caliphates, but they don't have to be. They could be any distinct Muslim entity that have had some level of rulership over the Holy Land. I get your point of view. I too once believed as you do. That is until it was revealed to me that Rome ruled in two legs. That made me think about the toes in Daniel 2's statue. When I saw that ten distinct Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land, I believed this has to be put out there for consideration. It is too coincidental to be ignored.

    This idea simply doesn't fit your interpretation of the prophecies. The prophecies lack very specific details. Because of this, it allows for people to read into the prophecies that which is not there. Such things like the ten horns and ten toes will be something new that will rise to rule over the lands of the 7th empire. The prophecy is simply not that specific. The ten horns and the seventh empire are together. You assume that the ten horns will be something new from the seventh empire. But I see the ten horns/toes more as a descriptor element to the seventh head. That the seventh head will be a divided kingdom that will rule over the Holy Land under ten different and distinct rulerships. And since there is a co-relationship of this in our history, I will lean on history than on some future conjecture.

    Now nowhere in the prophecy does it say that the Feet are a religious kingdom. This is a statement that is a perfect example of an eisegesis approach. You have read something into the prophecy that is simply not their. Now does the seventh empire happen to be based on a false religion? Yes. But that detail is simply not clear in any of the prophecies about the seventh empire, the feet and toes of iron and clay, or the ten horns.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Why did ISIS fail? Because the times are in God's hands.
    That is true of everything.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It is funny you claim exegesis but then PUSH a Caliphate. This is because you recognise that there is REAL world connection between prophecy and history. yet when I o this, you complain it is eisegesis.
    I take EXACTLY what the Bible is giving us, and reject your idea of the 10 entities BECAUSE exegetically they do NOT fit.
    Even where there 10 Caliphates, it still would NOT exegetically fit.
    Why not, because as I have shown you from EXPLICIT scripture, there is a minimum of 3 kings which MUST reign at the same time in order for the AC to uproot them. Further we are told in Rev 17 that these 10 are ALL in power at the SAME time.
    So though I understand your claim I have to reject it as it does NOT match scripture.Why does it have to be exactly the same? Can it fit? Yes. Is Dan 7 therefore giving us something which Dan 2 and Rev 17 don't? Yes.
    We need to put them together to get the COMPLETE picture.
    What you are certain of I disagree with as it isn't correct.
    Daniel 7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


    First, I need to thank you for your points on this. The Daniel Chapter 7 prophecy about the uprooted horns has bugged me for sometime. But you arguments made me dig back into the history of the Muslim entities that have ruled over the Holy Land. This is what I found:

    When the Ayyubid Caliphate came upon the world stage, the Seljuk Empire ruled the Holy Land. But the previous Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates were still in existence. They all existed at the same time (three horns). The Ayyubid's Dynasty would rise to put an end to the previous three caliphates. And an interesting man by the name Saladin would rise to not only rule the Ayyubid Dynasty, but would war against the Crusaders as well. Saladin was quite the interesting leader of his time. Saladin would easily fulfil this prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post


    The 6th seal is NOT the wrath of the Lamb.
    So many people stumble on this.
    God does NOT say this is His wrath - it is PEOPLE who mistakenly CLAIM it is the wrath of the Lamb.


    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    The Sixth Seal—Terror
    12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    I will accept what the prophecy clearly teaches.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I can understand that people may not agree that Atomic war is not the 6th seal, but I will disagree with anyone who claims the 6th seal is the actual Lamb's wrath.
    You can disagree all you like. But I will take what the scripture tell us about the sixth seal. The scriptures tells us that the sixth seal is the Wrath of the Lamb.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I get the impression you are suggesting a Pre-Trib rapture.
    It is not happening. We do need to be ready, but we need to be ready for tribulation.
    No. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.

    Mark 13:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Return of Christ
    24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light,


    Does this not sound like the sixth seal with the sun becoming like sack cloth and moon like blood?

    We are in tribulation. Tribulation is all around us. Tell those that are being added under the alter almost everyday for their belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Tell them that they are not under tribulation. Tell six million Jews in World War II that they were not under tribulation. We are in tribulation. And we have been in it for some time now. From the Napoleonic Wars until today strife is everywhere. War is everywhere. Suffering is everywhere. We are all going through tribulation. Do we in the west, and particularly the United States, not suffering like other believers around the world? Very much so. We are incredibly blessed during this time to live in the United States where we can worship our Messiah without tribulation. But most of the world is not this way. And believers are suffering in Africa and Asia and in many nations and corners of our earth every day. However, we did have 9/11. This has been tribulation.

    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Fifth Seal—Martyrs
    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.



    The numbers under the alter is not complete. There will be more of us that will end up under the alter. More that will suffer great tribulation. And who knows, someday that could be your or I.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  12. #72
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Could ten new entities rise to fit your interpretation of the prophecies? Sure. My point has always been that the fact ten different Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land since the Muslim conquest of the Holy Land. This is a fact that should not be ignored.
    You already have MORE than 10 entities WITHIN the old area of the Persian-Greek-Roman kingdom.
    For example Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Then you could have Kurdistan come into being and take down, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.

    My point which is where our major disagreement is, is that ten different Muslim entities have NOT ruled over the Holy Land. Ruling a bit of it doesn't count. Also being a NATIONAL entity and not a Muslim one ALSO does NOT count. I am therefore not ignoring a FACT, because I am stating it is NOT a fact.

    And He is the only one that truly knows our future and timing of events. However, revelation occurs when it is fulfilled by our history. Some ten nation confederacy rising is not in our history. And because of this, it is conjecture at best. However, ten separate Muslim entities that has risen to rule over some or all of the Holy Land is not conjecture. It is real. It has happened.
    Revelation is ALREADY given to us. We are to understand what has been revealed. From what He has told us and we have seen confirmed so then we can understand what is next.
    There is NO conjecture when scripture EXPLICITLY states that the 10 kings will be in power AT THE SAME TIME. The other is NOT real as it has NOT happened.

    Round and round we go again. You are placing your own criteria to the prophecy. By the way, the Nation of Jordan ruled over Jerusalem. The Palestinian National Authority rules over a portion of Jerusalem.
    Jordan didn't rule over all of Jerusalem, nor does the PNA. Of course we HAVE to place criteria. The question is DOES that criteria FIT with the prophecy.
    A Caliphate FITS. It matches what is stated about the clay and iron.
    However NEITHER Jordan or the PNA FIT. They do NOT match what is stated about clay and iron.

    It is a strawman argument only if you believe that the ten horns and toes have yet to appear in our history. Clearly that is your deep seated belief. Because of what has already happened in our history, I now hold to a different point of view. I believe some of the horns and toes where Caliphates, but they don't have to be. They could be any distinct Muslim entity that have had some level of rulership over the Holy Land. I get your point of view. I too once believed as you do. That is until it was revealed to me that Rome ruled in two legs. That made me think about the toes in Daniel 2's statue. When I saw that ten distinct Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land, I believed this has to be put out there for consideration. It is too coincidental to be ignored.
    No it is a strawman regardless.
    The point being that the Feet is NOT the Toes.
    This is simple FACT.
    I agree that Rome ruled as TWO Legs. Greece also ruled as TWO Thighs (King of the North and King of the South).

    This idea simply doesn't fit your interpretation of the prophecies. The prophecies lack very specific details. Because of this, it allows for people to read into the prophecies that which is not there. Such things like the ten horns and ten toes will be something new that will rise to rule over the lands of the 7th empire. The prophecy is simply not that specific. The ten horns and the seventh empire are together. You assume that the ten horns will be something new from the seventh empire. But I see the ten horns/toes more as a descriptor element to the seventh head. That the seventh head will be a divided kingdom that will rule over the Holy Land under ten different and distinct rulerships. And since there is a co-relationship of this in our history, I will lean on history than on some future conjecture.
    There is indeed only a certain degree of details. Yet those ARE specific enough that we can see Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman AND another. Further we are told that ALL 10 will be at the SAME time.
    IF your claim FIT with what we DO have specific details on, THEN I would say that is an interesting and possible interpretation.
    We ARE told that the 10 horns are on the head of the beast. So we have to determine which head.
    We are given prophecy and we see how it is fulfilled, and yet you wish to IGNORE this to impose your OWN intepretation, rather than remaining CONSISTENT with what God has revealed?

    Now nowhere in the prophecy does it say that the Feet are a religious kingdom. This is a statement that is a perfect example of an eisegesis approach. You have read something into the prophecy that is simply not their. Now does the seventh empire happen to be based on a false religion? Yes. But that detail is simply not clear in any of the prophecies about the seventh empire, the feet and toes of iron and clay, or the ten horns.
    It says the Feet are a MIXED kingdom, further that it is unlike the other kingdoms.
    So what defines the other kingdoms? This is NOT eisegesis, but delving INTO what the prophecy states.
    Also the Feet are NOT the Toes, yet you make the Feet and Toes as ONE.
    So on many levels you reject what detail we ARE given and complain when details are brought into relief and plausible understanding of it is given.
    Now I believe the Feet is the Caliphate, NOT because it is a religious kingdom, but because it FITS with what was stated before.
    The fact it is religious then shows a difference between it and the previous kingdoms.

    Daniel 7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.


    First, I need to thank you for your points on this. The Daniel Chapter 7 prophecy about the uprooted horns has bugged me for sometime. But you arguments made me dig back into the history of the Muslim entities that have ruled over the Holy Land. This is what I found:

    When the Ayyubid Caliphate came upon the world stage, the Seljuk Empire ruled the Holy Land. But the previous Abbasid and Fatimid Caliphates were still in existence. They all existed at the same time (three horns). The Ayyubid's Dynasty would rise to put an end to the previous three caliphates. And an interesting man by the name Saladin would rise to not only rule the Ayyubid Dynasty, but would war against the Crusaders as well. Saladin was quite the interesting leader of his time. Saladin would easily fulfil this prophecy.
    An interesting thought, but ONLY IF you think that the 10 horns are the various incarnations of the Caliphate.
    Further it falls down on TWO levels.
    1) This would make Saladin the little horn and thus the AC. Now Christian apologists might have claimed such 1,000 years ago, but it is self-evident this is not the case.
    2) As stated in Rev 17 ALL 10 are in power, not just 3.

    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    The Sixth Seal—Terror
    12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    I will accept what the prophecy clearly teaches.

    You can disagree all you like. But I will take what the scripture tell us about the sixth seal. The scriptures tells us that the sixth seal is the Wrath of the Lamb.
    I also 100% accept what scripture teaches.
    Scripture does NOT tell us that the 6th seal is the wrath of the Lamb.
    You clearly think it does, so let me highlight WHO declares it is the wrath of the Lamb.
    16 and they *said...

    WHO is they? Did God declare this? Did an angel or a voice from heaven?
    No, it was "THEY"! Who are they? PEOPLE.
    Nowhere in these verses does God say that this is the wrath of the Lamb.
    This declaration by PEOPLE is the same as when PEOPLE declare "Peace and safety..."
    PEOPLE are ALWAYS wrong.

    No. I do not believe in a pre-trib rapture.
    Mark 13:24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Return of Christ
    24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light,

    Does this not sound like the sixth seal with the sun becoming like sack cloth and moon like blood?
    Not really, it simply sounds like a momentous event.

    We are in tribulation. Tribulation is all around us. Tell those that are being added under the alter almost everyday for their belief that Jesus is the Messiah. Tell them that they are not under tribulation. Tell six million Jews in World War II that they were not under tribulation. We are in tribulation. And we have been in it for some time now. From the Napoleonic Wars until today strife is everywhere. War is everywhere. Suffering is everywhere. We are all going through tribulation. Do we in the west, and particularly the United States, not suffering like other believers around the world? Very much so. We are incredibly blessed during this time to live in the United States where we can worship our Messiah without tribulation. But most of the world is not this way. And believers are suffering in Africa and Asia and in many nations and corners of our earth every day. However, we did have 9/11. This has been tribulation.
    We are indeed in tribulation. Don't disagree. However that is NOT the same as Great Tribulation.
    The difference is clarified here:
    Rev 13:7* Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,*
    Rev 13:8* and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.*
    Rev 13:9* If anyone has an ear, let him hear:*
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    Great Tribulation which is what Mark 13:24 refers to, is the short period of time BEFORE Jesus returns. It lasts 42 months.

    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Fifth Seal—Martyrs
    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.


    The numbers under the alter is not complete. There will be more of us that will end up under the alter. More that will suffer great tribulation. And who knows, someday that could be your or I.
    Again note, no mention of Great Tribulation.
    In Rev 7 we read about those who went through the Great Tribulation.
    Notice when John was asked, "Who are these?" He did NOT say, the rest who were to be slain. he didn;t know and so is told.

  13. #73

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    These people aren't Christians. If John specifically wanted to imply Christians he had a few other words to use. The word 'people' in Revelation 18:4 is 'laos' which is a typical general word for people implying ALL people and not of any one class.

  14. #74

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    ^ What about this (from Bible Hub):

    [quoting]

    "2992 laós (the root of the English term, "laity") – a people, particularly used of "the people of the Lord" (= Heb ʽam).

    2992 (laos) is the usual term for "the people of God" and thus typically used in the LXX (OT) and the Gospels, for believing Israel (Jews).

    Example: Heb 4:9: "So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people (2992 /laós) of God" (NASU)."


    That's how I see it.

    https://bibleforums.org/showthread.p...20#post3443220 [my post #3 in this thread, as well as post #6]

  15. #75
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    "Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    These people aren't Christians. If John specifically wanted to imply Christians he had a few other words to use. The word 'people' in Revelation 18:4 is 'laos' which is a typical general word for people implying ALL people and not of any one class.
    An interesting idea, yet I would highlight a small word in the verse which seems to say the opposite of what you are claiming.
    This small word is "my".
    If God meant anyone He would have said, "Come out of her you people..." Yet He specified ownership of the people who were to come out.
    We have this same picture given in Exodus 3 where Moses is charged to bring God's people out of Egypt.

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