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Thread: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

  1. #76

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    An interesting idea, yet I would highlight a small word in the verse which seems to say the opposite of what you are claiming.
    This small word is "my".
    If God meant anyone He would have said, "Come out of her you people..." Yet He specified ownership of the people who were to come out.
    We have this same picture given in Exodus 3 where Moses is charged to bring God's people out of Egypt.
    Whether Jew or gentile, we are all God's people. Since John used the generic word for people, then I go with that. If John wanted to indicate Christians, he would have likely used the word, 'eklectos.' If he wanted to indicate people from gentile nations he would have likely used the word, 'ethnikos.' If he wanted to indicate Jews, hw would have likely used the word, 'Hebraios' or 'and of these words...

    http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strong...on&isindex=Jew

    Instead by using the word 'laos'John indicates all people regardless of ethnicity or religion to get out of ISLAM!

  2. #77

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    You already have MORE than 10 entities WITHIN the old area of the Persian-Greek-Roman kingdom.
    For example Turkey, Iraq, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Uzbekistan. Then you could have Kurdistan come into being and take down, Iraq, Syria and Turkey.
    This is precisely why I do not see some great Muslim confederacy in our future. The Muslim entities that have ruled over some or all of the Holy Land were distinct from one another, and there have been ironically ten of them. Even the Umayyad Caliphate which was an extension of the Rashiduns came to power via civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    My point which is where our major disagreement is, is that ten different Muslim entities have NOT ruled over the Holy Land. Ruling a bit of it doesn't count. Also being a NATIONAL entity and not a Muslim one ALSO does NOT count. I am therefore not ignoring a FACT, because I am stating it is NOT a fact.
    And my point is that your point is nowhere in the prophecies. Nowhere does it say that it must rule over ALL of the Holy Land. Nowhere does it say that it must be a caliphate and not a nation or authority.

    You have added your own criteria to the prophecies. I am just pointing out that history shows the existence of ten entities. Again, here they are for the sake of others reading this thread.

    1.) Rashidun Caliphate 632AD to 661AD
    2.) Umayyad Caliphate 661AD to 750AD
    3.) Abbassid Caliphate 750AD to 969AD
    4.) Fatimid Caliphate 969AD to 1073AD
    5.) Seljuq Empire 1073AD to 1098AD
    6.) Ayyubid Dynasty 1187AD to 1260AD
    7.) Mamluk Sultanate 1260AD to 1517AD
    8.) Ottoman Empire 1517AD to 1917AD
    9.) Nation of Jordan 1949AD to 1968AD
    10.) Palestinian National Authority 1993AD to Today

    You can try to discredit the historical fact, but I put this out for all to examine and decide for themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Revelation is ALREADY given to us. We are to understand what has been revealed. From what He has told us and we have seen confirmed so then we can understand what is next.
    There is NO conjecture when scripture EXPLICITLY states that the 10 kings will be in power AT THE SAME TIME. The other is NOT real as it has NOT happened.
    Show us where it says in the prophecies AT THE SAME TIME. Your making it all in caps doesn’t make it so. You cannot show this. It doesn’t exist in the details of the prophecies. You are adding your interpretation to the prophecies to fit your prophetic point of view, and in the process ignoring the history of the world that actually fulfills this prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Jordan didn't rule over all of Jerusalem, nor does the PNA. Of course we HAVE to place criteria. The question is DOES that criteria FIT with the prophecy. A Caliphate FITS. It matches what is stated about the clay and iron.
    However NEITHER Jordan or the PNA FIT. They do NOT match what is stated about clay and iron.
    I stand corrected. The Nation of Jordan didn’t rule over all of Jerusalem, just East Jerusalem. The Nation of Jordan made East Jerusalem their second capital during their time in control. Quoted from Wikipedia, “(East Jerusalem) includes Jerusalem's Old City and some of the holiest sites of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, such as the Temple Mount, Western Wall, Al-Aqsa Mosque, Dome of the Rock and the Church of the Holy Sepulchre.” Yes. The Nation of Jordan didn’t rule over all of Jerusalem, just the important parts.

    The FIT you talk about is a criterion you have added. The only FIT needed is for the entity to have authority over some of Jerusalem. And yes, Jerusalem is truly the key because of the promise the Lord had made for her.

    Isaiah 62 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen;
    All day and all night they will never keep silent.
    You who remind the LORD, take no rest for yourselves;
    7 And give Him no rest until He establishes
    And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.


    Jerusalem is not yet a praise in the earth.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    No it is a strawman regardless.
    The point being that the Feet is NOT the Toes.
    This is simple FACT.
    I agree that Rome ruled as TWO Legs. Greece also ruled as TWO Thighs (King of the North and King of the South).
    And I agree that the split thighs of bronze were the Ptolemaic and Seleucid Greek Empires.

    Well you couldn’t anatomically have ten splits beginning at the ankles. The empire of iron and clay is IMHO a symbol of the one thing that holds the ten entities together and that is Islam. That is the commonality. Now this is my interpretation, but it is a based on what has already happened in our history. Ten distinct entities that claim Islam as their base has ruled over some or all Jerusalem. The Nation of Jordan is a member of the Organization of Islamic Cooperation (aka Islamic Conference Organization) making it a Muslim nation. The Palestinian National Authority in their Mandate supports the Islamic Conference Organization as well. Are there anyone out there, with the possible exception of ForHisglory, that doesn’t accept the fact the both the Nation of Jordan and the Palestinian National Authority are Muslim entities? ForHisglory, the only reason you do not accept this is because it doesn’t fit your narrative. You have added your criteria to fit your prophetic point of view. My point of view is what has already happened in our history, and I am pointing it out for all to witness.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    There is indeed only a certain degree of details. Yet those ARE specific enough that we can see Babylon, Persia, Greece, Roman AND another. Further we are told that ALL 10 will be at the SAME time.
    Nowhere does it say the ten horn or toes will have their kingship at the SAME TIME. You are reading your point of view into the prophecy and ignoring the ten entities in our history that fulfills the prophecy. I will accept what has been fulfilled in history and not your interpretation of the prophecy.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    IF your claim FIT with what we DO have specific details on, THEN I would say that is an interesting and possible interpretation.
    We ARE told that the 10 horns are on the head of the beast. So we have to determine which head.
    We are given prophecy and we see how it is fulfilled, and yet you wish to IGNORE this to impose your OWN intepretation, rather than remaining CONSISTENT with what God has revealed?
    My interpretation is grounded on 1300 years of Muslim history. Ten Muslim entities have ruled over some or all of Jerusalem or the Holy Land. It happens to be both. You, on the other hand, are waiting for some ten entities to come together. Good luck with that.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    It says the Feet are a MIXED kingdom, further that it is unlike the other kingdoms.
    So what defines the other kingdoms? This is NOT eisegesis, but delving INTO what the prophecy states.
    Also the Feet are NOT the Toes, yet you make the Feet and Toes as ONE.
    So on many levels you reject what detail we ARE given and complain when details are brought into relief and plausible understanding of it is given.
    Now I believe the Feet is the Caliphate, NOT because it is a religious kingdom, but because it FITS with what was stated before.
    The fact it is religious then shows a difference between it and the previous kingdoms.
    The Feet and the Toes are one. Yet they are mixed and will not remain united. The ten different entities have been ruled by Arabs, Syrians, Egyptians, Turks, etc., truly a MIXED kingdom, and they have not been united. The Muslims are the epitome of what it means to NOT be united. The ten different Muslim entities of history FITS the prophecy. Just not your interpretation of it.


    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    An interesting thought, but ONLY IF you think that the 10 horns are the various incarnations of the Caliphate.
    Further it falls down on TWO levels.
    1) This would make Saladin the little horn and thus the AC. Now Christian apologists might have claimed such 1,000 years ago, but it is self-evident this is not the case.
    2) As stated in Rev 17 ALL 10 are in power, not just 3.
    I threw out Saladin as an interesting correlation. I agree that he doesn’t fit, as the Daniel 7 prophecy indicates that the little horn will rise after the ten horns. This fact alone indicates that the ten horns were previous kingdoms, yet at the time of the little horn three would still exist, just like three existed in Saladin’s time.

    Ironically, three exist today. The Palestinian National Authority exists today. The Nation of Jordan exist today. And interestingly, the remnant Ottoman Empire exists with the Nation of Turkey. The Nation of Turkey was formed after the Turkish War of Independence. After World War I, the Ottoman Empire was controlled by War World I’s winning allies. But this did not last long. Turkish officers from the prior Ottoman Empire won their independence from the allies. They did abolish the previous monarchy and established a new nation. But the point is that the current Nation of Turkey was formed by former Ottoman Empire military officers. None of the prior Muslim entities from the Rashiduns through the Mamluks exist today in any form. They are gone to history. But there is a remnant of the Ottoman Empire in the Nation of Turkey. There is today the Nation of Jordan. And, there is the Palestinian National Authority. Will a boastful little horn rise to uproot these three? I have no idea. I cannot see the future. I can only look at our history.

    But do I accept that ten new Muslim entities will somehow rise in our future? No. I no longer accept this idea in light of what has happened over the past 1300 years.

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I also 100% accept what scripture teaches.
    Scripture does NOT tell us that the 6th seal is the wrath of the Lamb.
    You clearly think it does, so let me highlight WHO declares it is the wrath of the Lamb.
    16 and they *said...

    WHO is they? Did God declare this? Did an angel or a voice from heaven?
    No, it was "THEY"! Who are they? PEOPLE.
    Nowhere in these verses does God say that this is the wrath of the Lamb.
    This declaration by PEOPLE is the same as when PEOPLE declare "Peace and safety..."
    PEOPLE are ALWAYS wrong.

    I will post again the prophecy of the sixth seal for all to read:


    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Sixth Seal—Terror
    12 I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind.14 The sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up, and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 Then the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they *said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the [n]presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

    ForHisglory, you can believe as you like. But I read this as the beginning of the “wrath of the lamb.” The people are having to hide themselves in caves. Sounds like they are under wrath to me. Plus the Apostle John made the point to put the term into the prophecy. If it was WRONG, then why would he include it. That doesn’t make sense.

    As our round and round arguments go, I doubt seriously I can convince you of the errors in your point of view. But again, I write this mainly for others that are reading these post so that they can make an informed decision based on what the prophecies are communicating.




    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Not really, it simply sounds like a momentous event.


    We are indeed in tribulation. Don't disagree. However that is NOT the same as Great Tribulation.
    The difference is clarified here:
    Rev 13:7* Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation,*
    Rev 13:8* and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.*
    Rev 13:9* If anyone has an ear, let him hear:*
    Rev 13:10* If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints.

    Great Tribulation which is what Mark 13:24 refers to, is the short period of time BEFORE Jesus returns. It lasts 42 months.


    Again note, no mention of Great Tribulation.
    In Rev 7 we read about those who went through the Great Tribulation.
    Notice when John was asked, "Who are these?" He did NOT say, the rest who were to be slain. he didn;t know and so is told.

    Revelation 6 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    The Fifth Seal—Martyrs
    9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O [k]Lord, holy and true, [l]will You refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, would be completed also.

    Note the phrase “had been”, past tense when this seal is broken. Many were already under the alter and they were told to wait longer.

    Revelation 7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    A Multitude from the Tribulation
    9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands; 10 and they cry out with a loud voice, saying,
    “Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.” 11 And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12 saying,
    “Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever. Amen.”
    13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, “These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?” 14 I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    How long is this great tribulation period? I have heard seven years since I was a child. But no where do I see a verse in scripture that clearly indicates how long this period of great tribulation will exist. What I do see is a number that no one can count. I don’t believe those standing before the throne are from just one generation, or some narrow seven year period. I believe they are from many generations, and that we have been going through great tribulation for some time now. World War I and II were clearly times of great tribulation. Tell 6 million Jews in World War II that there were not going through great tribulation. Tell the estimated 26 million Christians that were martyred in the 20th century that they were not going through great tribulation. In this century, Christians are being slaughtered for their faith nearly every day. Coptic Christians were lined up on a beach in Libya and beheaded by Isis followers not that many years ago. Christians were dragged into the streets of Mosul and killed for their faith. Christians are being martyred in Africa, Asia, and in other corners of the earth. Christianity is under attack from every corner of the globe.

    Oh yes! There is more to come. And likely worse yet to come. But I cannot see that future. I can only watch and pray and put my faith and trust in the Lord.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  3. #78

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    Whether Jew or gentile, we are all God's people. Since John used the generic word for people, then I go with that. If John wanted to indicate Christians, he would have likely used the word, 'eklectos.' If he wanted to indicate people from gentile nations he would have likely used the word, 'ethnikos.' If he wanted to indicate Jews, hw would have likely used the word, 'Hebraios' or 'and of these words...

    http://www.eliyah.com/cgi-bin/strong...on&isindex=Jew

    Instead by using the word 'laos'John indicates all people regardless of ethnicity or religion to get out of ISLAM!
    I agree that the "Come Out of Her My People" phrase is directed to both Jew and Gentile.

    However, it is not Islam. It is a city. Six times the prophecies in Revelation 17 & 18 refer to the woman as being a city. And I believe this city is New York City. It is the only city in the history of the earth to fulfil the prophecies.

  4. #79

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    The "GREAT" tribulation is said [only] to start at the time of the AOD [i.e. mid-trib... it is not the entire 7 yrs, but half of it, the second half]:

    Matthew 24 -

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand[-ing] in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [this correlates with Rev12:6,14, which further correlates with Daniel 12:6-7,1-3 (same length of time remaining)]

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation [see also Rev7:9,14], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. [see again Daniel 12:1,6-7 and then v.12 which correlates with the "BLESSED" passages in the NT referring to the commencement of the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom (upon His "return" to the earth): Rev19:9 "BLESSED"; Matt25:31-34 "BLESSED"; Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 "BLESSED"; Matt24:44-47 "BLESSED"; etc...]

  5. #80

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    The "GREAT" tribulation is said [only] to start at the time of the AOD [i.e. mid-trib... it is not the entire 7 yrs, but half of it, the second half]:
    The 42 months (1260 days). Yes,I have heard that one too. That is even less time for a number no one can count.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Matthew 24 -

    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand[-ing] in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

    16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: [this correlates with Rev12:6,14, which further correlates with Daniel 12:6-7,1-3 (same length of time remaining)]

    17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

    18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

    19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

    20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

    21 For then shall be great tribulation [see also Rev7:9,14], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    You know there is a fulfillment of this in our past.

    The Olivet Discourse started with this statement:


    Matthew 24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    Signs of Christ’s Return
    24 Jesus came out from the temple and was going away [a]when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here will be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”


    This was Herod's Temple that was torned down on Tish b' Av in 70AD. The son of the Roman Emperor Vespasian, Titus, wanted the gilding off the Temple. He tore down every stone to get to the gold.


    Revelation 12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness where she *had a place prepared by God, so that there she would be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.


    and

    Revelation 12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    12 For this reason, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them. Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”


    and

    Daniel 12 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 And one said to the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long will it be until the end of these wonders?” 7 I heard the man dressed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, as he raised his right hand and his left toward heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever that it would be for a time, times, and half a time; and as soon as they finish shattering the power of the holy people, all these events will be completed.


    I guessing you are assuming that the time, times, and half a time are the 1260 days too? Maybe? But making a relationship to the prophecies here in Revelation 12 and Daniel 12 to Matthew 24 is not evident in the text. No where in Matthew 24 does it mention the 1260 days.

    The Olivet Discourse talks about many things.

    Matthew 24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


    There is the signs or the Messiah's coming and the End of the Age. The Messiah's coming has not happened yet. But what End of the Age was the Lord talking about? I believe he was addressing his Apostles. It is hard for us with so much time having passed to recognize what happened in the first and second century AD. Beginning with the first Jewish Roman War in 66 AD until the end of the Bar Khokhba revolt in 136 AD, a curious period of 70 years, well over a million Jews lost their lives. It was an unprecedented upheaval that would scatter the Jews to the four corners of the earth. It would usher in the time of the gentiles. It was literally the End of the Age for the Jewish people of that time. I believe Matthew 24:15-24 is directed toward this time.

    At the end of the Bar Khokhba revolt, the Emperor Hadrian erected statues to Jupiter and Himself. He destroyed Torahs on the Temple Mount. He renamed Judea to Syria Palestina. We get Palestine from this abomination. He killed countless Jews scattering many to points outside the Roman empire like the steppes of Russia, and areas that would become Germany and Poland. The Emperor Hadrian fulfills the prophecy of the Abomination that causes Desolation. His actions were very similar to that of Antiochus Epiphanes, another Abomination that causes Desolation.


    Will there be another? Maybe? I don't know. Personally, I doubt it. But I cannot predict the future. However, I can read the past. And the portion you quoted from Matthew 24 I believe to be a fulfilled prophecy. But I get it if you don't agree. Many don't. But I point it out because we tend to ignore what has happened in our past.

  6. #81

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    I agree that the "Come Out of Her My People" phrase is directed to both Jew and Gentile.

    However, it is not Islam. It is a city. Six times the prophecies in Revelation 17 & 18 refer to the woman as being a city. And I believe this city is New York City. It is the only city in the history of the earth to fulfil the prophecies.
    No US city will fulfill the prophecy of the harlot or the 7 heads and 10 horns. The woman is used interchangeably with a city. How is NYC a city of seven mountains?
    First, the woman...

    So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    The wilderness is better translated "the desert." New York City, Rome, or the EU.... DO NOT reside in the desert, Mecca and Medina do.

    The words "sit upon" mean to occupy. The word Blasphemy indicates this is a religion. Why? Vines...

    "blasphemy" is practically confined to speech defamatory of the Divine Majesty.

    So this woman is figurative of a blasphemous religion that OCCUPIES some sort of a 7/10 coalition of nations and kings. This means that ISLAM will be the dominate religion of this 10/7 coalition of a beast.

    And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet colour, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

    Ever see the inside of Mosque like Mecca or the Islamic Shrine called the Dome of the Rock?

    Filthiness??? Rev. 17:4 is the only place the word is used. It's a state of impurity and being morally filthy. I could go off on this by telling all about the filthiness of true Islam, but for now I'll hold off. Many of the words I would use are probably banned on the forum. I could post a video of a good old fashioned beheading too, but that would also be inappropriate. How about of ISIS blowing up a baby in a training video? I could also tell you some things about how Muslim's treat their woman and children...maybe I'll do that at the bottom of the page.

    And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    In the New Testament Babylon is either literal Babylon or figurative of false religion. It gave birth to and synonymous with false religion. Islam gave birth to all of it's jihadist sects. "Babylon the Great" simply implies A LARGE FALSE RELIGION. It's not Rome, the EU, the U.S., or NYC.
    The verse should actually read...

    ISLAM, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF JIHADIST AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    Did you know...

    Muslim's want to make East Jerusalem and the Dome of the Rock complex the Islamic Capital of the world? The man of sin and his Islamic false prophet, and maybe even the Muslim jesus, authenticate East Jerusalem as that 'great city' of seven mountains and the location of the harlot of Babylon. An abomination called the Dome of the Rock complex now "sits upon" this site, i.e. Mount Moriah, which is at the geographical center of Jerusalem's seven mountains. THIS IS THE ONLY PIECE OF GROUND GOD HAS CLAIMED AS HIS OWN IN THE BIBLE. SO WHAT DOES THIS MEAN?

    The harlot represents a large false religion, i.e. ISLAM, and worldwide terrorism. 'Sitteth' means "to occupy or have a fixed abode." This indicates that Islam is the dominate religion that 'OCCUPIES' this 10/7 empire which is an Islamic Caliphate of sorts, headquartered and operated from the Dome of the Rock. Babylon the Great, AKA "a large false religion," must “sit on” or occupy seven mountains, (East Jerusalem) and I believe those mountains are the seven mountains that surround Jerusalem. "The Dome of the Rock" complex is an anti-christ monument that "sits upon" the site of the ruins of two Jewish Temples today called the Temple Mount, AKA "Mount Moriah." Jerusalem is "that great city" of Revelation 17.

    The Islamic harlot of Babylon promises it's fanatical adherents a mansion in paradise with as many as 72 bedrooms and 72 virgins for filling the harlots cup. The amount of virgins they get is dependent upon the magnitude of the abomination they commit. The Islamic whore will terrorize the world into submission using some of the most horrific means available to man today. Islam will hurl the planet into tribulation. Can't you see it coming?

    Some of Islam's filthiness...(and when I say some, I mean very little!)

    Muslim women are treated as second-class citizens in Islam. ONE example... The Human Rights Commission of Pakistan (HRCP) says hundreds of women were killed in so-called honor killings in the country last year. (2012) In its annual report, the HRCP said 913 girls and women, including 99 minors, were killed in 2012. The report said 604 were killed after being accused of having illicit relations with men. Around 191 were reported slain for marrying their own choice of husbands and going against their families' wishes. Honor killings are illegal in Pakistan, but such killings are still carried out in remote tribal areas. The number of honor killings in Pakistan usually ranges between 600 and 900 each year. In Kolkata India on December 7 another killing in the name of "honor" and there has been a surge in such attacks over the past several months.

    Nilofar Bibi, 22, was only 14 years old when she left home in an arranged marriage. Alleging torture carried out by her in-laws, Bibi returned to her parents on November 28, but vanished days later. Her brother, Mehtab Alam, 29, had discovered his sister was living with an old boyfriend, Firoz, an auto-rickshaw driver. Alam stormed into the home and dragged Bibi onto the street in broad daylight. Passers-by looked on in horror as he cut off Bibi's head while saying "she had sinned and had to be punished". Alam left his sister's body in a pool of blood on the road, and calmly walked to the police station, her head in hand, to surrender himself. The siblings' family expressed support for Alam, saying they were proud he upheld their honor.


  7. #82

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    No US city will fulfill the prophecy of the harlot or the 7 heads and 10 horns. The woman is used interchangeably with a city. How is NYC a city of seven mountains?
    First, the woman...
    I will just address this one point for now, for it is big. The beast and the harlot are not in any way united. It is a common misconception that because the harlot is riding the beast that they are one and the same, or at least allied. We only need to look for the clear verses in scripture to understand the imagery in the prophecy. Revelation 17:16 gives us the clear relationship.


    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.


    The ten horns and the beast hate the harlot. HATE! This is not united. The seven mountains has nothing to do with the harlot city. This is a prophecy related to the beast.


    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


    Koine Greek did not have a word we have today, and that word is Empire. The Mountains is the word used for Empire. We know this because the prophecy says that they are seven kings. By the time the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, five empires had waged war against Israel and G-d's Holy People (Egyptian, Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Persian, and the Greek empire) and were no more. Five have fallen. During the time of the Apostle John one empire ruled over the Holy Land (Rome), the one that is. And the there was one yet to come, and when it did it must remain for a little while. The Muslims wrestled control of the Holy Land from the Byzantine Romans in the 7th Century AD. Muslims still control parts of the Holy Land, including parts of East Jerusalem (Palestinian National Authority) today. The beast is a representation of war, destruction, and authority over G-d's Holy People, Israel and Jerusalem. All the empires had authority over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar's Statue in Daniel Chapter 2 is a related prophecy, though it starts with Nebuchadnezzar's Neo-Babylonian Empire. In the end, G-d destroys the statue from the feet and toes of iron and clay. He establishes a peaceful kingdom where man will wage war no more. Instead we beat our swords into plow shares, and our spears into pruning hooks.


    Revelation 17 (NASB)
    3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.



    The image of the harlot and beast is like a rider riding a horse. Does the horse want to be ridden? It is more an image that the harlot city will have some level of authority over the beast, just as a rider has authority over its mount. The United Nations has authority over every nation on earth. It was the actions of the United Nations that created the state of Israel. Do you think the Muslim world wanted this to happen? Look at the list of nations that voted against the creation of the state of Israel:

    Afghanistan
    India
    Iran
    Iraq
    Lebanon
    Pakistan
    Saudi Arabia
    Syria
    Yemen

    Greece
    Turkey
    Egypt

    Cuba

    Only three nations in this list are not Muslim. It is curious that there are ten Muslim nations in the list.

    So, the seven mountains are not an identifier for the Harlot City. It is for the beast, and they are not related.

    When you isolate the verses that identify the Harlot City you will find that in all the history of the earth New York City is the only city to fulfill the prophecies. And it does so quite well.

    New York City is filled with both Jews and Christians. New York City has the second largest Jewish population of any city on earth. Only Tel Aviv in Israel has a larger Jewish population.

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;


    By the way, the wilderness can be anywhere outside the Beautiful Land. New York City is outside of Israel. And ironically, at the time the Apostle John wrote Revelation, the location of New York City was then truly a wilderness. Desert is often accepted because immediately outside of Israel is mostly desert. But the imagery in Revelation 17:3 is just that, imagery. We don't need to read too much into this as the angel explains the imagery beginning in Revelation 17:7.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  8. #83

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    I will just address this one point for now, for it is big. The beast and the harlot are not in any way united. It is a common misconception that because the harlot is riding the beast that they are one and the same, or at least allied. We only need to look for the clear verses in scripture to understand the imagery in the prophecy. Revelation 17:16 gives us the clear relationship.
    I didn't say they were united. Only that the words "sit upon" means to OCCUPY, so this harlot, ISLAM, dominates the 7 headed 10 horned beast. Meaning....Islam is the dominate religion of it. Islam not only gave birth to all of its jihadist sects, in its early days Mohamadanism divided into TWO sects of Sunni and Shia, AKA the two horned beast of Revelation 13, and they still hate one another. ISLAM 'sits upon' or occupies BOTH the Sunni and Shia sects today, and they hate one another.

    I don't want to confuse you but...

    The Great city of Revelation 17 is East Jerusalem. That Great city of Revelation 18 is Mecca, Saudi Arabia.


    Islam, i.e. Babylon the Great, turns East Jerusalem's seven mountains into the harlot city. However, the harlot dwells in Mecca, but when she fully OCCUPIES East Jerusalem and turns it into the headquaters of Islam's world Caliphate, it too becaome a harlot.

    The beast burns her with fire...

    This is one of two things.
    1. Iran nukes Mecca, Saudi Arabia. OR
    2. The beast nukes Iran.

    I tend to believe...Iran nukes Mecca Saudi Arabia.

    Koine Greek did not have a word we have today, and that word is Empire. The Mountains is the word used for Empire. We know this because the prophecy says that they are seven kings. By the time the Apostle John wrote the book of Revelation, five empires had waged war against Israel and G-d's Holy People (Egyptian, Assyrian, Neo-Babylonian, Persian, and the Greek empire) and were no more. Five have fallen. During the time of the Apostle John one empire ruled over the Holy Land (Rome), the one that is. And the there was one yet to come, and when it did it must remain for a little while. The Muslims wrestled control of the Holy Land from the Byzantine Romans in the 7th Century AD. Muslims still control parts of the Holy Land, including parts of East Jerusalem (Palestinian National Authority) today. The beast is a representation of war, destruction, and authority over G-d's Holy People, Israel and Jerusalem. All the empires had authority over Israel. Nebuchadnezzar's Statue in Daniel Chapter 2 is a related prophecy, though it starts with Nebuchadnezzar's Neo-Babylonian Empire. In the end, G-d destroys the statue from the feet and toes of iron and clay. He establishes a peaceful kingdom where man will wage war no more. Instead we beat our swords into plow shares, and our spears into pruning hooks.
    I use to believe that but no longer do. Here's why...

    The kingdoms of Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece had fallen by John's time. It makes no sense for John to have a vision of a beast depicting an end-time kingdom, only to have some of the elements of that beast be several thousands of years old. That actually makes him a false prophet since a prophet cannot prophesy about kings (kingdoms not explicitly implied) that have already passed. The words ARE and FALL (not fallen or have fallen) indicates they are all end-time KINGS! The beast of Revelation 17 IS NOT a progression of world empires.

    KJV
    And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Some translations say, "five have fallen."

    'FIVE ARE FALLEN' is a blunder. ARE is present, fallen is past! The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a reflection of PAST world empires. It is a picture of a complete end-time entity. There ARE seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation. That's how it's worded in the interlinear. Just like the four beast Daniel prophesy's about in Daniel 7, these kings are all present on earth at the same time. Take a look...

    http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineI...Tpdf/rev17.pdf

    This is how it look in the interlinear... ...AND KINGS SEVEN ARE THE FIVE FALL AND THE ONE IS THE other NOT- as- yet CAME AND when-EVER he-MAY-BE-COMING FEW(briefly) him it-IS BINDING TO-REMAIN.

    (One is....that would be Assad!)

    How can Revelation 17 depict the ANCIENT kingdoms you mention be when, "they have received no kingdom as yet," how can they, "receive power as kings one hour with the beast," and how can they, "have one mind," and how can they, "shall give their power and strength unto the beast," AND HOW CAN THEY, "shall make war with the Lamb," ...IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!

    The 7 headed ten horned beast of Rev. 17, and the 7 headed ten horned dragon of Rev. 12 ARE BOTH SAID TO BE SCARLET. This indicates to me that the Revelation 17 beast is a product of Satan of the dragon. One meaning of the word for Lucifer is, "the king of Babylon," and the Assyrian anti-Christ is also said to be the king of Babylon. Coincidence? A more accurate interpretation of verse 5 is.... ISLAM, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF JIHADIST AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    The image of the harlot and beast is like a rider riding a horse. Does the horse want to be ridden? It is more an image that the harlot city will have some level of authority over the beast, just as a rider has authority over its mount. The United Nations has authority over every nation on earth. It was the actions of the United Nations that created the state of Israel. Do you think the Muslim world wanted this to happen? Look at the list of nations that voted against the creation of the state of Israel:
    First, the empire of the 7 headed 10 horned beast isn't worldwide. It's limited to the area of the Middle-East.

    I certainly disagree with the remainder of your post about New york City.

  9. #84

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    KJV

    And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space. Some translations say, "five have fallen."

    'FIVE ARE FALLEN' is a blunder. ARE is present, fallen is past! The word ARE is a third person plural present indicative. This passage isn't a reflection of PAST world empires. It is a picture of a complete end-time entity. There ARE seven kings, "FIVE FALL" is the correct translation. That's how it's worded in the interlinear. Just like the four beast Daniel prophesy's about in Daniel 7, these kings are all present on earth at the same time. Take a look...
    If you're talking about Rev17:10, my Interlinear says the word for "are fallen [verb, G4098 - epesan]" is "aorist" (not "present tense"). That means it's already happened, not that it's present tense happening, as in "five fall". The next part of the sentence "one IS," "IS" is in the "present tense," by contrast.

    The same word is aorist in Hebrews 11:30, "Jericho fell" and in 1Cor10:7-8 "and fell in one day three and twenty thousand"

  10. #85

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Matthew 24 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 As He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”


    There is the signs or the Messiah's coming and the End of the Age. The Messiah's coming has not happened yet. But what End of the Age was the Lord talking about? I believe he was addressing his Apostles. It is hard for us with so much time having passed to recognize what happened in the first and second century AD. Beginning with the first Jewish Roman War in 66 AD until the end of the Bar Khokhba revolt in 136 AD, a curious period of 70 years, well over a million Jews lost their lives. It was an unprecedented upheaval that would scatter the Jews to the four corners of the earth. It would usher in the time of the gentiles. It was literally the End of the Age for the Jewish people of that time. I believe Matthew 24:15-24 is directed toward this time.
    I believe that when the disciples asked Jesus about "the end of the age" in Matt24:3, they were asking Him this based on what He had already talked with them about in Matt13 ("the end [singular] of the age [singular]" Matt13:30,39,40,49-50), where He had told them about "the harvest" [wheat] and "the reapers [the angels (He "shall send forth")]" and "the kingdom of the heavens" [which is on the earth], and which ["sequence" involved] is in the OPPOSITE sequence as that of the time of our Rapture [which is "in the air"].

    Additionally, I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" is the equivalent of the "SEALS" (Rev6) and that Rev1:1 says "TO SHEW unto His servants [see also Matt22:7-8's sequence] things which must come to pass [comp 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (that is, NOT over the course of some 2000 yrs, but rather 7-yrs... The bulk of The Revelation is covering those 7 years, and one can make out the faint outline of this, therein. ("the wise" of Israel, in the future, "will understand" that outline, with their blindness lifted, making it out much more clearly than even most Christians do today, because they will be piecing it together properly... ["the servants of our God" for example, Rev7:3 (144,000--of whom I tend to believe Paul was a "type" [in that, there are similarities/connections])]).



    [the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to that which started in 606bc and will end at the end of the future trib/His Second Coming to the earth (Rev11:2/Lk21:24b), and refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: image/statue, with Neb as head of gold)... it is NOT referring to "the Church age"(Eph1:20-23 "WHEN")/"this present age"/"this present evil age"... When IT ends (at the time of His 2nd Coming to the earth), "fill the earth" will be the next thing, per Dan2:35 (just like Gen9:1 [Matt24:37-42 "as the days of Noe/Noah were, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be" (and still-living/mortal people [saints/the righteous only, Matt13:42-43] will enter the earthly kingdom age ["the age [singular] to come" ] at that time, who are capable of reproducing/bearing children [this isn't our Rapture or rapture-timing])]

  11. #86

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    If you're talking about Rev17:10, my Interlinear says the word for "are fallen [verb, G4098 - epesan]" is "aorist" (not "present tense"). That means it's already happened, not that it's present tense happening, as in "five fall". The next part of the sentence "one IS," "IS" is in the "present tense," by contrast.

    The same word is aorist in Hebrews 11:30, "Jericho fell" and in 1Cor10:7-8 "and fell in one day three and twenty thousand"
    The interlinear uses 'epesan.' Strong's uses 'pipto.' Thayer uses 'aorist.' I know that the word ARE in ARE FALLEN was added by the KJV.

    Bold is mine...

    STRONGS NT 4098: πίπτω
    πίπτω; (imperfect ἔπιπτον (Mark 14:35 T Tr marginal reading WH)); future πεσοῦμαι; 2 aorist ἔπεσον and according to the Alex. form (received everywhere by Lachmann (except Luke 23:30), Tdf. (except Revelation 6:16), Tr (except ibid.), WH; and also used by R G in Revelation 1:17; Revelation 5:14; Revelation 6:13; Revelation 11:16; Revelation 17:10)

    Since the word is 'imperfect tense' it combines past and present tense. So they could not have fallen 2-3 thousand years ago. "Have fallen" would be incorrect because that implies past tense. It's more accurate to say something like "was falling" or better yet like the interlinear states, "FIVE FALL."

    Here's a question for you....

    How can Revelation 17 depict the ANCIENT kingdoms you mention be when, "they have received no kingdom as yet," how can they, "receive power as kings one hour with the beast," and how can they, "have one mind," and how can they, "shall give their power and strength unto the beast," AND HOW CAN THEY, "shall make war with the Lamb," ...IF SIX OF THEM EXISTED THOUSANDS OF YEARS IN THE PAST!

    The word are here...
    V. 10 And there are seven kings

    Is a third person plural present indicative of the word 'eimi' which means to be present or exist.

  12. #87

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    The word are here...
    V. 10 And there are seven kings

    Is a third person plural present indicative of the word 'eimi' which means to be present or exist.
    I'm just sayin... this sentence ^ would be the same as:

    http://biblehub.com/interlinear/acts/7-12.htm

    Acts 7:12 - "Now Jacob, having heard there is [present tense - http://biblehub.com/greek/1510.htm ] grain in Egypt, sent forth our fathers first."



    [quoting from Bible Hub]

    "1510 eimí (the basic Greek verb which expresses being, i.e. "to be") – am, is. 1510 (eimí), and its counterparts, (properly) convey "straight-forward" being (existence, i.e. without explicit limits).
    1510 /eimí ("is, am") – in the present tense, indicative mood – can be time-inclusive ("omnitemporal," like the Hebrew imperfect tense). Only the context indicates whether the present tense also has "timeless" implications. [...]"

    _______

    "And there are seven kings: five are fallen [epesan (pipto) - G4098], and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space." v.10. V.12's "ten kings" are distinct from these, it seems to me.


    ["there exist seven kings: five are fallen..."; ... "ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but..."]

    _______

    "epesan" used 12x [in this form] of "pipto" - G4098 (same word)

  13. #88

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    I didn't say they were united. Only that the words "sit upon" means to OCCUPY, so this harlot, ISLAM, dominates the 7 headed 10 horned beast. Meaning....Islam is the dominate religion of it. Islam not only gave birth to all of its jihadist sects, in its early days Mohamadanism divided into TWO sects of Sunni and Shia, AKA the two horned beast of Revelation 13, and they still hate one another. ISLAM 'sits upon' or occupies BOTH the Sunni and Shia sects today, and they hate one another.
    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    18 The woman whom you saw is the great city, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)

    10 standing at a distance because of the fear of her torment, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! For in one hour your judgment has come.’

    16 saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, she who was clothed in fine linen and purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls;

    17 for in one hour such great wealth has been laid waste!’ And every shipmaster and every passenger and sailor, and as many as make their living by the sea, stood at a distance,18 and were crying out as they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, ‘What city is like the great city?’

    19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’

    21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer.

    Jeremiah James, how many times does the scripture need to tell us that the harlot of Babylon is city for us to accept the fact that it is a city? Seven times? Or do you need more? Truth is, I write this for others that haven't already made up their minds about such matters to read the text themselves, look at the clues, and decide for themselves. The woman is not a religion. It is not a person. It is not even a nation or empire. The scripture is very clear on this fact.

    One of the primary point is that ISLAM cannot be destroyed by a single millstone as indicated in the prophecy as quoted in Rev. 18:21 above. Plus, the Muslims are the seventh head of the beast and the ten horns. It doesn't make sense that they would HATE themselves as indicated in Revelation17:16.

    No. The woman, the harlot of Babylon is a city. It is a city of tremendous wealth. It is a city by the sea. It is a city where its merchants were the world's famous men. It is a city that contains a government that rules over the other nations of the earth. New York City fulfills the prophecy. And the message needs to be delivered, for there is an unfulfilled event waiting for her, a destruction so violent that no one will ever live there again. That is why identifying this correctly is very important.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel






  14. #89

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    I believe that when the disciples asked Jesus about "the end of the age" in Matt24:3, they were asking Him this based on what He had already talked with them about in Matt13 ("the end [singular] of the age [singular]" Matt13:30,39,40,49-50), where He had told them about "the harvest" [wheat] and "the reapers [the angels (He "shall send forth")]" and "the kingdom of the heavens" [which is on the earth], and which ["sequence" involved] is in the OPPOSITE sequence as that of the time of our Rapture [which is "in the air"].
    This is a good point. Our Lord used the same language in Matthew 13 as He did in Matthew 24. However, there was a large harvest of Jews that took place during the 70 years of conflict between the Romans and the Jews. Were there the wheat and tares then? Truthfully, we are all either going to be either wheat or tares when our time on this earth is over. But, I will accept your conclusion that the events in the first and second century AD may not be "the end of the age" that the Messiah was talking about. The events that happened to the Jewish peoples of the first and second century AD may be just a derash (דְּרַשׁ‬), or similar occurrence to what will ultimately happen to all the world at the return of the Messiah.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Additionally, I believe "the beginning of birth PANGS" is the equivalent of the "SEALS" (Rev6) and that Rev1:1 says "TO SHEW unto His servants [see also Matt22:7-8's sequence] things which must come to pass [comp 4:1] IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (that is, NOT over the course of some 2000 yrs, but rather 7-yrs... The bulk of The Revelation is covering those 7 years, and one can make out the faint outline of this, therein. ("the wise" of Israel, in the future, "will understand" that outline, with their blindness lifted, making it out much more clearly than even most Christians do today, because they will be piecing it together properly... ["the servants of our God" for example, Rev7:3 (144,000--of whom I tend to believe Paul was a "type" [in that, there are similarities/connections])]).
    I disagree that the seals are only over the 7 year period. I don't see anything in the language of the seals to indicate this. I believe the first five seals occur during times of tribulation, but before the wrath of the Lamb. The seven years is a time of wrath, (or at least some of the time it is wrath), and comes after the first five seals. I believe that greater tribulations began with the breaking of the first seal. I believe that Napoleon fulfilled the breaking of the first seal. However, I would not disagree with the argument that tribulation goes all the way back to the time right after the Messiah. After all, the early Christians truly suffered and faced tribulation sometimes great tribulation for their belief.


    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    [the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" refers to that which started in 606bc and will end at the end of the future trib/His Second Coming to the earth (Rev11:2/Lk21:24b), and refers to "Gentile domination over Israel" (think: image/statue, with Neb as head of gold)... it is NOT referring to "the Church age"(Eph1:20-23 "WHEN")/"this present age"/"this present evil age"... When IT ends (at the time of His 2nd Coming to the earth), "fill the earth" will be the next thing, per Dan2:35 (just like Gen9:1 [Matt24:37-42 "as the days of Noe/Noah were, SO SHALL ALSO the coming of the Son of man be" (and still-living/mortal people [saints/the righteous only, Matt13:42-43] will enter the earthly kingdom age ["the age [singular] to come" ] at that time, who are capable of reproducing/bearing children [this isn't our Rapture or rapture-timing])]
    I am going to have to disagree with this one too. Nebuchadnezzar took Jerusalem around 586 BC, so I am not sure of your 606 BC date. But after 70 years the Jewish peoples began returning to the Holy Land. And during the time of the Maccabees the Jewish peoples established a new Jewish kingdom in the Holy Land. Even initially under Roman rule the Jewish people thrived in the Land with a certain level of autonomy. The Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate yielded to the wishes of the Jewish authorities in his time. Now after the Bar Kokhba revolt (132AD to 135AD), the Emperor Hadrian moved to eradicate the Jews from the Holy Land, or from just about anywhere within the then Roman Empire. This time when the Jews were eradicated from the Holy Land began the time of the gentiles. This time is ending with the formation of the Nation of Israel. Jewish peoples now once again have authority over the Holy Land, the first time since the early rulership of the Land during Roman times. I will grant that the time of the Gentiles may not be completely over, as there are Muslims still ruling part of Jerusalem and other places in the Holy Land.

    Luke 21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    It is very difficult for me to read this and not see the fulfillment of it during the first and second century, particularly the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem by the future Roman Emperor Titus. For Titus surrounded the city using three legions. There were those that fled to the mountains (Masada). There was definitely great distress in the land. And there were those that fell by sword and those taken captive. And many of the Jews were sold into slavery throughout the lands. And many left the region and became scattered amongst the nations of the world as the Jewish people are today, save those that have returned to the Land.

    Will this too be a derash? Honestly, I do not know. Maybe. But since this is so precisely fulfilled in our history, it is very difficult for me to see some future fulfillment with this prophecy.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  15. #90

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    So what are you saying? People need to come out of New York city? NYC is Babylon the Great?

    The woman IS ASSOCIATED WITH MOUNTAINS and a city.

    And here
    is
    the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.

    And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    What 7 mountains represent NYC? The Adirondack's? And tell me how NYC is....
    I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

    "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

    That great city of Revelation 17 is East-Jerusalem. Islam "Babylon the Great," turns the city of East Jerusalem into a harlot after the kingdom of the beast establishes his headquarters or "Islam's worldwide Islamic Caliphate" somewhere in the Dome area complex.

    Notice something about Revelation 18...

    Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    Babylon falls twice. It can only be associated with two things in the NT, literal Babylon or false religion. It fell in times past and it will again when Christ returns to destroy it, i.e. ISLAM!.

    The merchants...

    They become rich on Arab oil.

    ...and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    "And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues."

    These are the plagues of the jihadist receive in Revelation 9. My people is a general term indication any people.

    "How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow."

    Ever notice how deliciously Arab Sheiks live? Ever seen what their palaces look like?

    "Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire:"

    That's Mecca being nuked also mentioned in Rev. 17 where the beast burns her, "MECCA" with fire.

    "And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,"...Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.

    WE, the good old USA, have committed fornication with the Saudi's and have lived deliciously. The barges and shipping containers will watch Mecca burn from the Persian Gulf, The Arabian sea, and the Red Sea.

    "And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:"

    No more Arab oil! And no more trade with other countries…

    And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more:

    "The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble,"

    "And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men. And the fruits that thy soul lusted after are departed from thee, and all things which were dainty and goodly are departed from thee, and thou shalt find them no more at all."

    "And saying, Alas, alas that great city, that was clothed in fine linen, and purple, and scarlet, and decked with gold, and precious stones, and pearls!"

    Gold toilets, pearls, all found in the residences and palaces of Arab sheiks. They are now shut off from world trade.

    "For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, and cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city."

    Yep! Watching Mecca burn from the sea. What a sight! Oil makes a great burn pile.

    OH! One more thing...

    And cinnamon, and odours, and ointments, and frankincense, and wine, and oil, and fine flour, and wheat, and beasts, and sheep, and horses, and chariots, and slaves, and souls of men.

    No more trade whatsoever!

    ISLAM, MECCA,...No more converting to Islam in Mecca!

    Islam, Babylon the Great, the Mother of Jihadist and Abominations of the Earth!

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