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Thread: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

  1. #91

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by gavriel View Post
    Luke 21 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is near. 21 Then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains, and those who are in the midst of the city must leave, and those who are in the country must not enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, so that all things which are written will be fulfilled. 23 Woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land and wrath to this people; 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.


    It is very difficult for me to read this and not see the fulfillment of it during the first and second century, particularly the 70 AD siege of Jerusalem by the future Roman Emperor Titus. For Titus surrounded the city using three legions. There were those that fled to the mountains (Masada). There was definitely great distress in the land. And there were those that fell by sword and those taken captive. And many of the Jews were sold into slavery through the lands. And many left the region and became scattered amongst the nations of the world as the Jewish people are today, save those that have returned to the Land.

    Will this too be a derash? Honestly, I do not know. Maybe. But since this is so precisely fulfilled in our history, it is very difficult for me to see some future fulfillment with this prophecy.
    I forgot to mention in my last post (will probably go back and add a small note) that I believe Jesus was addressing the events of 70ad in Luke 21:12-24a of the Olivet Discourse, where it starts out (in vv.8-11) speaking of "the beginning of birth PANGS [plural]" (called that specifically in Matt24:4-8, but described the same here... and recall I believe these START in the future 7-yr trib, with 1Th5:2-3 telling of the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" [upon its ARRIVAL])... and then says, "BUT BEFORE all these things [meaning, 'BEFORE the beginning of birth PANGS' (which are far-future)]" what follows in the text are verses where He describes the 70ad events (vv.12-24a, with 24b following on from there). Will try to find my post that gives the fuller reasoning.

    [Matt22:7-8 sequence also ]

  2. #92

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    So what are you saying? People need to come out of New York city? NYC is Babylon the Great?

    The woman IS ASSOCIATED WITH MOUNTAINS. What 7 mountains represent NYC? The Adirondack's? And tell me how NYC is....
    I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.

    Again, and mainly for everyone else reading this, because I am nearly certain that I will not change your interpretations.


    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.


    Let's first establish the relationship between the harlot woman and the beast. It is very clear in this verse that the beast and the ten horns, HATE, the harlot woman (city). They are in no way united. The image of the harlot riding the beast is more like a rider riding a horse. The rider has a certain amount of control over the beast, but that doesn't mean the beast wants to be ridden. In fact, when you read Revelation 17:16 the beast and the ten horns very much hate being ridden, and lashes out at the harlot city. I believe this has already happened. Extreme hatred by Muslim radicals attacked New York City on 9/11. The flesh of a city is its buildings. It is what you see when you take a picture of a city. And its two largest buildings were burned with fire and destroyed as if it was totally eaten. All you need is to recall the images of when the World Trade Center towers collapsed. Rev. 17:16 is a fulfilled prophecy. 9/11 was an event unlike any other event in the history of the world. It should not be a surprise that a prophecy was written pointing to this event. Unfortunately, New York City's plagues are not complete. There is at least one more, and it will be total destruction, and to the point that no one will ever live there again.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    8 “The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the abyss and go to destruction. And those who dwell on the earth, whose name has not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, will wonder when they see the beast, that he was and is not and will come. 9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


    It is the beast with the seven heads that are mountains. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE HARLOT WOMAN! There are no mountains associated in any way with the great city. You can read into it what you like, but this is not what the scriptures are communicating.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  3. #93

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Let's first establish the relationship between the harlot woman and the beast. It is very clear in this verse that the beast and the ten horns, HATE, the harlot woman (city). They are in no way united.
    I never said they were united. All I said was...

    1. John is taken into the wilderness better translated "the desert" to see the judgment of the Great harlot. New York City doesn't reside in the desert. Mecca and Medina do. If you don't believe me, look at the translations that say DESERT!

    Contemporary English Version
    With the help of the Spirit, the angel took me into a desert, where I saw a woman sitting on a red beast. The beast was covered with names that were an insult to God, and it had seven heads and ten horns.

    Good News Translation
    The Spirit took control of me, and the angel carried me to a desert. There I saw a woman sitting on a red beast that had names insulting to God written all over it; the beast had seven heads and ten horns.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    And he took me away in spirit into the desert. And I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    Darby Bible Translation
    And he carried me away in spirit to a desert; and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

    Weymouth New Testament
    So he carried me away in the Spirit into a desert, and there I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet-colored Wild Beast which was covered with names of blasphemy and had seven heads and ten horns.

    2. Mecca and Medina reside in a desert. New York City does not! The harlot's residence is in the mosque in Mecca, she, Islam and her jihadist sects who commit the abominations of the earth, 'occupy or dominate' the 7 headed and 10 horned beast which is an Islamic Caliphate situated in East Jerusalem's Dome of the Rock complex which Muslims want as the headquarters of their WORLDWIDE Caliphate and that turns the city into a harlot.

    Did you know...

    Mecca has 10 spires and 7 entrances?

    We believe that Jesus Christ takes away our sins and is the Rock of Ages and the chief cornerstone of the Churches foundation.

    Did you know that Muslim's bow toward a black rock in Mecca 5 times a day and believe it takes away their sins? This black rock is the 'cornerstone' of the Kaaba. It is the eastern cornerstone of the Kaaba, the ancient stone building towards which Muslims pray, in the center of the Grand Mosque in Mecca, Saudi Arabia. The Stone is a dark rock, polished smooth by the hands of millions of pilgrims, that has been broken into a number of fragments cemented into a silver frame in the side of the Kaaba. The Kaaba also has a skirt around it that many believe represents a WOMANS skirt.
    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________
    "Those who have submitted them selves to the oneness of Allah and those who have accepted His invitation for Hajj touch this skirt when circumambulating the Kaaba. The grave of a maid and a righteous mother is now a part of the Kaaba; it will be circumambulated by man forever!"

    http://www.islamicity.org/5514/reach...a-during-hajj/

    __________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _

    This is what the Kaaba looks like,...



    This is what the black stone looks like...



    3. To "eat her flesh and burn her with fire" indicates Mecca gets nuked by the beast. This beast could be an Iranian sponsored Caliphate in the Dome area. I'm not sure but know I'm on the right track. Nobody has this all figured out. Saudi and Iran are in a 5 year bloody war in Yemen that hardly gets reported on. Right now the humanitarian crisis there is worse than Syria's.

    4. Babylon is associated with only two things. Literal Babylon and false religion. In this case it can only be 'false religion'.

    5. Babylon the Great simply means, "a great (in size) false religion.

    6. The word's "sit upon" mean to occupy which indicates ISLAM is the dominate religion of this beast. As you know Islam is far from a united religion.

    New York City??? Sorry, way off track!

    It is the beast with the seven heads that are mountains. THIS IS NOT ABOUT THE HARLOT WOMAN! There are no mountains associated in any way with the great city. You can read into it what you like, but this is not what the scriptures are communicating.
    Since the woman OCCUPIES the beast, and the 7 heads of the beast are mountains, then they certainly are associated with one another.

    "And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth."

    "And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth."

    The woman occupies seven mountains. That would be Mount Moriah which is at the geographical center of Jerusalem's 7 mountains where an abomination now sits called the Dome of the Rock.

    Ever notice this one....


    And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #94

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    First, let me thank you for our debate. It provides greater clarity and insight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremiah James View Post
    I never said they were united. All I said was...

    1. John is taken into the wilderness better translated "the desert" to see the judgment of the Great harlot. New York City doesn't reside in the desert. Mecca and Medina do. If you don't believe me, look at the translations that say DESERT!
    Let’s start with the verse in question:

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    3 And he carried me away [a]in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns.


    It is the beast that is standing on the wilderness. The harlot woman is riding the beast. She is not standing upon the wilderness. She has authority over the beast but is not the one standing on the wilderness. Revelation 17:3 is imagery, and the Apostle John was astonished by this vision.

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 And the angel said to me, “Why do you wonder? I will tell you the mystery of the woman and of the beast that carries her, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.


    We should not read too much into the imagery, particularly when the image is explained, as the angel says, “I will tell you the mystery.”

    Again, for the sake of others reading this, here is the relationship of the harlot, beast, and the ten horns:

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    16 And the ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the harlot and will make her desolate and naked, and will eat her flesh and will burn her up with fire.


    The beast and the ten horns HATE the harlot city. They are very separate entities. One is a part of a great empire that has lasted over 1300 years. The other is great city. And this great empire HATES the great city.

    Now let’s recap the prophecy about the beast (the great empire):

    Revelation 17 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    9 Here is the mind which has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits, 10 and they are seven kings; five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while.


    This is a prophecy about empires. That is what the beast is all about, warring, conquering, destroying empires. It is the devil at his worst. The spirit of war is the absolute opposite of G-d's love.

    At the time of the Apostle John five empires had taken authority over some or all of Israel. But by the time of the Apostle John these five empires had fallen. They were the Egyptians, Assyrians, Neo-Babylonians, Persians, and Greeks. (Five have fallen.) During the time of the Apostle John the “one that is “was the Roman Empire. The Roman Empire ruled over the Holy Land during the time of the Apostle John. Then there would be one yet to come and when it does it must remain for a little while. We know from history that in the seventh century AD, followers of Muhammad conquered the Holy Land from the Byzantine Romans. Muslims have been ruling over the region ever since.

    I would agree with you Jeremiah James, that the Muslim are very much a part of the prophecy. They just are not the harlot city. It would not make sense for the Muslims to HATE Mecca or Medina.

    Plus, Mecca or Medina does not fulfill the other portions of the prophecies concerning the harlot woman:

    Let’s start with the title of this thread:

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    4 I heard another voice from heaven, saying, “Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;


    “My people” is an important clue to reveal the mystery of the harlot woman. “My people” is G-d’s people. Consider the following verse from the Torah:

    Exodus 3:7 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    7 The LORD said, “I have surely seen the affliction of My people who are in Egypt, and have given heed to their cry because of their taskmasters, for I am aware of their sufferings.


    This is the Jewish people and I believe too grafted in Christians are included. They both are "my people." New York City has the largest population of Jewish people in the world with the exception of the city of Tel Aviv in Israel. What do you think the Jewish population of Medina or Mecca is? How many Christians do you think live in Medina or Mecca? No Medina or Mecca does not contain G-d's people. In fact, Mecca and Medina have a people that has an intense hatred for G-d's people . Do you think the Muslims are the "my people" in Revelation 18:4? I truly do not accept the idea that the Muslim's are G-d's people in any way. In fact, I believe them to be the opposite.

    The Harlot City or Mystery Babylon is like Ancient Babylon in that it too is a place of safe Diaspora. It is diaspora that makes the connection from Ancient Babylon to Mystery Babylon, and why I believe the title on the forehead was given as Mystery Babylon. The prophecy couldn't very well say New York City, for no city would ever have been named such. No. The name was shrouded for future revelation. After all Revelation is the title of the book. Both places, Ancient Babylon and Mystery Babylon were and are a safe city where G-d’s people thrived. And Jewish people have truly been thriving in New York City.

    Also, neither Medina or Mecca are port cities:

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’


    “All who had ships….” This is another key clue as to the identity of the harlot city. All who had ships became rich by her (harlot city’s) wealth. There are not a lot of ships docking at either Medina or Mecca, both are inland cities, and are not port cities. Plus, neither of these cities would be considered particularly wealthy, at least in comparison to New York City. New York City is the largest city in the wealthiest nation the world has ever known. Also, the New York City area contains a vast port complex. New York City is known as the center of the world’s commerce. It doesn’t only have the largest stock exchange in the world, it has the largest two stock exchanges. If there was not a New York Stock Exchange, the NASDAQ would be the world’s largest stock exchange. Consider the very name of the towers on 9/11, the World Trade Center towers. Their very name screams enormous wealth.

    These are just a couple of the examples of how Medina and Mecca not only does not fulfill the prophecy, but they will never be able to fit the clues in the prophecy. I could go on and on about the merchants, about the melting pot quality of its population, or how it contains a government that rules over other governments, as further examples of how Medina or Mecca cannot fulfill the prophecy. But this is enough for someone else reading this post. I am convinced that I will likely not change your point of view. You clearly have invested a lot in your prophetic assessment. Sorry. But the Harlot City is not Medina or Mecca. It is not a religion. It is not Islam. But again, I will leave this for others to decide. I know that there will be many that have their minds already made up that the Harlot Woman is Islam, or Catholicism, or Rome, or Ancient Babylon, or the Pope, or some other identity. And to those that have their minds already made up, I will be unable to change their minds, the same as they will not be able to change mine. But it is for others that I write this post. And for the fact, that their is a command from Heaven in this prophecy to "Come Out of Her My People." It is so important that we get this one right. Unfortunately, there will be many that will ignore the command.

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”


    It grieves me greatly to think that when New York City is destroyed that there will be prophets and saints that will be destroyed with her. That this message will not be heard and understood. It will be ignored because so many are not identifying the clues correctly. They are reading into the prophecies their own biases. I have no bias for New York City. I am an American. I love my country. Though I am saddened by its fallen nature, its sinful ways. It is her sins that mount to heaven, and the reason tremendous judgement will befall her. Yes. I am very sad about this.

    Again Jeremiah James, I do thank you for the debate, as it provided me yet another clear clue as to why New York City does indeed fulfill the prophecies. Now I will go and make an edit in my book.

    Shalom,

    Gavriel

  5. #95
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    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”

    It grieves me greatly to think that when New York City is destroyed that there will be prophets and saints that will be destroyed with her. That this message will not be heard and understood. It will be ignored because so many are not identifying the clues correctly. They are reading into the prophecies their own biases. I have no bias for New York City. I am an American. I love my country. Though I am saddened by its fallen nature, its sinful ways. It is her sins that mount to heaven, and the reason tremendous judgement will befall her. Yes. I am very sad about this.
    This verse is telling us that Jerusalem is Babylon the great

    Who is the only nation who killed both the prophets and the saints? Israel

    It takes us back too

    Matthew 23:33-38
    33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and sages and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 Truly I tell you, all this will come on this generation.

    37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing. 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate.

    See how Matt 23:35 matches Rev 18:24?

    Revelation 18:24
    24 In her was found the blood of prophets and of God’s holy people,
    of all who have been slaughtered on the earth.”

    Babylon the great is called the great city in

    Revelation 17:3
    The woman you saw is the great city that rules over the kings of the earth."

    And Revelation 11:8 tells us who that great city is
    8 Their bodies will lie in the public square of the great city—which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where also their Lord was crucified.

    Where was Jesus crucified? In Jerusalem

  6. #96

    Re: Come Out of Her My People (Rev. 18:4)

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    This verse is telling us that Jerusalem is Babylon the great

    Who is the only nation who killed both the prophets and the saints? Israel
    It is not martyrdom. You are taking the verse out of context.

    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    21 Then a strong angel took up a stone like a great millstone and threw it into the sea, saying, “So will Babylon, the great city, be thrown down with violence, and will not be found any longer. 22 And the sound of harpists and musicians and flute-players and trumpeters will not be heard in you any longer; and no craftsman of any craft will be found in you any longer; and the sound of a mill will not be heard in you any longer; 23 and the light of a lamp will not shine in you any longer; and the voice of the bridegroom and bride will not be heard in you any longer; for your merchants were the great men of the earth, because all the nations were deceived by your sorcery. 24 And in her was found the blood of prophets and of saints and of all who have been slain on the earth.”



    Mystery Babylon is destroyed by a strong angel that threw a millstone into the sea. This is a scene of utter destruction for the Harlot City. After it is destroyed, "in her was found the blood of saints, prophets, and all who have been slain on the earth." This is not martyrdom, but a death caused by the city's destruction. Consider the phrase "the blood" "of all who have been slain on earth." How is this even possible? No city could possibly fulfill this prophecy if martyrdom is what was meant. No. What is meant is blood like in relationship, like a blood relative. The city will contain descendants or blood relatives of all who have been slain upon the earth. This is the only way this verse can make sense. And considering the melting pot that is New York City, this is possible.


    And using the same argument against Mecca or Medina, Jerusalem does not fulfill the other clues in the prophecy:


    Revelation 18 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    19 And they threw dust on their heads and were crying out, weeping and mourning, saying, ‘Woe, woe, the great city, in which all who had ships at sea became rich by her wealth, for in one hour she has been laid waste!’


    This indicates that the Harlot City is a seaport, and vast one at that. Jerusalem is many miles inland in a mountainous region in Israel.

    Jerusalem is NOT the Harlot City, nor is it Israel. It does not fulfill the clues. And the prophecy has nothing to do with martyrdom, but instead of a great loss of life when the city is destroyed by one of G-d's mighty angels. This is the clear understanding or P'shat (פשט) of the prophecy.


    We know that Jerusalem has a very different fate than the calamitous fate of Mystery Babylon.

    Isaiah 62 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
    6 On your walls, O Jerusalem, I have appointed watchmen;
    All day and all night they will never keep silent.
    You who remind the Lord, take no rest for yourselves;
    7 And give Him no rest until He establishes
    And makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth.
    8 The Lord has sworn by His right hand and by His strong arm,
    “I will never again give your grain as food for your enemies;
    Nor will foreigners drink your new wine for which you have labored.”
    9 But those who garner it will eat it and praise the Lord;
    And those who gather it will drink it in the courts of My sanctuary.

    10 Go through, go through the gates,
    Clear the way for the people;
    Build up, build up the highway,
    Remove the stones, lift up a standard over the peoples.
    11 Behold, the Lord has proclaimed to the end of the earth,
    Say to the daughter of Zion, “Lo, your salvation comes;
    Behold His reward is with Him, and His recompense before Him.”
    12 And they will call them, “The holy people,
    The redeemed of the Lord”;
    And you will be called, “Sought out, a city not forsaken.”


    Jerusalem in not yet a praise upon the earth, but will be. It will not be a city forsaken. Mystery Babylon, on the other hand ,will be destroyed and so completely that no one will ever live there again.

    This is why the message needs to be understood and the identification true. Jerusalem is not Mystery Babylon. New York City fulfills the clues in the prophecy. No other city on earth does so.


    Shalom,

    Gavriel
    Last edited by gavriel; Jun 26th 2018 at 11:13 PM.

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