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Thread: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

  1. #121
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I only share in common with Partial Preterists the belief that the Olivet Discourse was *primarily* about the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    That's all I have said about you...I haven't called you a PP...I did years ago but I stopped because it upset you. Look at my recent posts, I didn't say you are a PP...only that you share a belief with them shown true in the above quote.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  2. #122
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    I didn't say I was confused, I said your thinking is confused. Daniel asked when he didn't understand:
    Dan 7:15* “As for me, Daniel, my spirit within me was anxious, and the visions of my head alarmed me.*
    Dan 7:16* I approached one of those who stood there and asked him the truth concerning all this. So he told me and made known to me the interpretation of the things.
    Like I stated, God isn't the author of confusion. I am not confused about anything, if I have an understanding of God, that it as far as I am concerned. But there are many hings I see people get wrong on here that get wrong which is as simple as 2 + 2 = 4. Some people are just not called to prophecy, but try to jump in anyway, its like watching a Milkman trying to install carpet.

    stated there are FOUR beasts because this is what Daniel saw in his vision and what the angel spoke about. Does scripture cause a problem?:
    Dan 7:3* And four great beasts came up out of the sea, different from one another.*

    ONLY four, not 1, not 5 but 4.

    Now these FOUR beasts are also IN TOTAL seen in the one beast.
    The Little Horn is NEVER called a beast. Perhaps you are confused over this verse?
    Dan 7:11* “I looked then because of the sound of the great words that the horn was speaking. And as I looked, the beast was killed, and its body destroyed and given over to be burned with fire.

    It is not only the little horn which is destroyed, but the ENTIRE beast. This is speaking of the 4th beast.
    The horn is the seat of power of the 4th beast, which at one point in time is invested in 10 horns, but then one arise which displaces 3 and becomes THE horn for the beast.

    So, not the little horn is NOT a separate beast, but simply the final king of the 4th beast. Get this right and it will help you interpret scriptures correctly.
    The fourth beast also does NOT suffer a mortal wound.
    It is one head of the seven headed beast. Now this could be anyone of the heads. We are not told in Rev 13 which one. So you are claiming something which scripture is not supporting. You may speculate it is the 4th beast, and you may be right, but you have presented nothing to show you are correct.
    That's what you say/see, but I see 5 very clearly because the LAST BEAST is a Man whose body is burned and the fourth beast was Rome. The Last Beast, the little Horn arises out of the Fourth Beast, it just so happens to happen 2000 some odd years later. If you can't see that its not on me, I can't make anyone see these things sister, all I can do is cite the scriptures which are right there in front of us all. Daniel names OUR BEASTS then shows a little Horn arising out of the FOURTH BEAST and calls that man A BEAST, so I count 5 Beasts total. One is a MAN during the End Times. Does this match Revelation? Well of course it does, the Beast is said to have a NUMBER (666), and its the number of A MAN !!

    We are also told there is a Mortal Wound of one of the Heads, then the Head is Healed. We have 6 Heads and the coming Anti-Christ. What more can I say, its very obvious to me, all might not be shown what I am shown. As per the Little Horn never being called A BEAST......What?

    Dan. 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

    So the Little Horn is CLEARLY CALLED A BEAST !! Rome suffered the Mortal Wound long ago.


    False thinking - even by your own interpretation. You count the Egyptians as a beast, yet was Israel in the land when Egypt ruled over them? You count Assyria, yet weren't the people of Israel exiled out of the land? (perhaps you mean Judah, in which case then Assyria wasn't a beast over Judah).
    Perhaps you count Babylon, yet Babylon also took them out of the land, so for 3 of your beasts, they weren't in the land, so by your definition they couldn't be beasts. This is a paradox for such a claim. Now what about Persia - I count them as the first beast - yet when the Persians conquered Babylon, Israel was not in the land. Now the Persians DID allow them to return, which seems hardly the action of a beast, and which is why the imagery speaks of the beast becoming like a man.

    The Roman Empire ceased in 1453 AD, so I think you are talking about 500 years NOT 2,000.
    Let's not discuss Apollyon as that will just lead to its own thread.
    These are not Beasts only over Israel but the whole Mediterranean Sea Region, thus both Daniel and John saw these Beast arise out of the [Mediterranean] Sea in both instances. All of these BEASTS (Animals) we BEASTING OVER Israel by Enslaving them, Conquering them or Ruling over them. Persia allowed them to go home and rebuild their Temple but they were still the Beast over the Mediterranean Sea Region (MSR). The reason for the Mortal Wound and there being NO BEAST after Rome was Rome dispersed Israel all over the world as slaves into different regions of the world AND God turned His back on Israel. He saw them as Dead Men's Bones thus ISRAEL was NO MORE thus there was NO BEAST over them. In Egypt they were all ENSLAVED in the same place as a nation. God saw them as a Nation. God punished the 10 tribes but still NO REPENTANCE, thus God allowed Babylon to take Jerusalem Captive for 70 years but Israel was still recognized by God as a Nation, Daniel was HEARD, Jeremiah was HEARD, God still dealt with Israel, God still had plans to rebuild the Temple etc. etc.

    Egypt was over the Region: A BEAST


    Assyria was a BEAST:


    Babylon was a Beast over the Region:


    Persian Empire was a Beast in the Mediterranean Sea Region:


    Greece was a Beast of an Empire in the Region:




    The Roman Empire ruled the Mediterranean Sea Region like no other BEAST:
    Rome of course was the biggest of the Mediterranean Sea Empires, but of Course this site will only allows me to place 5 Attachments in one Post. So I think I will make another post and attach Rome, then I will attach the E.U. and the European Neighborhood Plan to show what the NEW BEAST will look like on a Map.

    I will finish my answers here but do Rome and the E.U. and the E.N.P. on the next post. The Roman Empire CEASED being a Beast over Israel circa 70-125 AD. We can discuss further after we look at the maps. The BEAST are (MSR) Beasts, thus they Arise out of the Sea.

    Different heads are found on each beast. We are told the explanation in Rev 17. I will ignore your strange idea about Apollyon, and not discuss here. Rome was indeed in power at the time of Revelation. Rome didn't "disperse" but was conquered by the succeeding kingdom.
    Each beast, as seen in Daniel 7 and supported by Dan 2, conquers the previous beast AND rules over Jerusalem and the promised land.
    God has ALWAYS had a people. He did NOT turn His back on the Jews, instead He gave an opportunity for those who were NOT His people to become His people. Israel was not dead, but disgraced.
    Its factual, not strange. You have a Red Dragon (Ch. 12) a Beast that Arises out of the [Mediterranean] Sea (Rev. 13) and a Scarlet Colored Beast (Rev. 17). It expressly tells us the Beast that WAS...IS NOT....YET IS Ascends from the bottomless pit. Satan is not locked in the pit, he roams the world conyinially, The Anti-Christ is a MAN born unto a Woman. Apollyon is the King of the bottomless pit. Rome did disperse Israel, Google the Diaspora and it will tell you this is factual sister.

    God indeed turns His back on Israel until 1948, READ the Valley of Dry Bones Prophecy in Ezekiel 37. All the Beasts have the EXACT SAME SEVEN HEADS, its about the Mediterranean Sea Region and the players.

    1. Red Dragon = Satan
    2. The Beast or 7th Head/Little Horn = The Anti-Christ
    3. The Scarlet Colored Beast was GET THIS.............at one time he was the Prince of Persia who withstood Micheal for 21 Days, he was over every Kingdom in that Region at one time or another. He was the 8th (Principality in High Places) and was [OVER] OF THE SEVEN (7).

    Its all about the SAME REGION !! The Red Dragon tried to kill Baby Jesus, he will chase Israel into the Wilderness (Rev. 12), but he does it via PEOPLE (King Herod and the coming Anti-Christ). The Scarlet Beast was at on time the Prince of Persia. The Beast in Rev. 13 will be A MAN/The Anti-Christ and the Little Horn. (All the SAME).

    Rome did eventually become one of the Kings that FELL, but the Mortal Wound happened before the Kingdom Fell. They lost power around 476 AD as per the Western Empire, the Empire was at its Greatest in 117 AD. But Rome suffered the Mortal Wound when it dispersed Israel. They can not be a Beast when there is no Israel to Beast over and God saw them as DEAD MEN'S BONES !! We can not challenge Gods understanding's, Israel WAS DEAD !!

    You miss that there is also one more - the 8th who is of the 7.
    IOW the 7th is NOT the AC. It is the 8th who is, just as the 10 horns are NOT the AC, but that he will arise among them.
    No I haven't missed that sister. I described the 8th unto you as Apollyon. I can follow him from chapter 9, to ch. 11 to ch. 17. The AC is a MAN not a Demon that arises from the BOTTOMLESS PIT Sister.

    It is indeed simple.
    Actually God showed them to Nebuchadnezzar that way.
    Who prevented the Jews from returning to Israel?
    It was the kingdoms who had power over the promised land.
    Take the number of heads of the 4 beasts in Dan 7 and add them up - you will come to a total of 7.
    7 heads on 4 beasts, and all 4 are aspects of the AC, who is none of them, but of them.
    1.) Egypt
    2.) Assyria
    3.) Babylon
    4.) Persia
    5.) Greece
    6.) Rome
    7.) The coming Anti-Christ/Little Horn..........He will have 10 Kings who rule with him for ONE HOUR = 42 Months.

    8.) Apollyon who was at one time called The Prince of Persia. Hes a Demon given power over the Mediterranean Sea Region !!
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  3. #123
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Finishing up the TWO OTHER MAPS:

    Rome was the largest of all the Beasts as per the Mediterranean Sea Region.


    And the COMING Anti-Christ will be the European Union and the "MANY" he has Agreements (Covenants) with who the then ATTACKS just like Daniel 11:40-43 says and he thus takes the SHAPE of the Old Roman Empire if you will notice the similarities in the TWO MAPS of the Two Empires !!


    Notice how the Old Roman Empire and the E.U. along with the "PARTNERS" or with the "MANY" looks like the same Empire? BOOM

    NOTICE how each Kingdom enveloped more and more of the Mediterranean Sea Region? Greece covered much of it, but ROME covered the WHOLE SEA. Thus the Beast will do the same !!
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  4. #124
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    That's all I have said about you...I haven't called you a PP...I did years ago but I stopped because it upset you. Look at my recent posts, I didn't say you are a PP...only that you share a belief with them shown true in the above quote.
    Thank you, ewq. It's been making me ornery, because I've been over-typing, and I've developed a bad case of tendenitis in my hands. I really want to distinguish my position, which is similar to PP, from it, because I think too much conflation occurs, and it throws off my points. I regularly have to explain that for me the "Great Tribulation" is not the 66-70 AD war. For me, the "Great Tribulation" is an age long ordeal for the Jewish People--the longest dispersion in Hebrew history.

    I think that, like Glory, you're a "brilliant" guy, both smart and a nice guy. I don't mind the comparison of my position with PP. I just wish to have my position distinguished from it, because clearly, for me there are important differences. I do embrace the PPs here for the things we have in common.

  5. #125
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    randyk, I always try to argue on merits of a position. I seek this as the way forward. I despair with you when you abandon the merits of an argument and fall back on a predetermined position, such as which you hold on the OD.
    It makes it IMPOSSIBLE to debate the merits because you have ALREADY decided a bias. This problem of your brother is also one of yours but on a different tack.
    Getting back to the A.C. I think you made a good point to TDW about the AC being revealed after the 10 nations are in place.
    Going back to Dan 9:27 this would be an agreement the AC brokers between these 10 nations which occurs at the start of the 70th week.
    Glory, you have *no idea* how long I've been studying these things, or how many positions I've held on these matters. The truth is, I've held to most of the views I've heard on this forum at one time or another--at least to elements contained in them. You seem to like to work puzzles. So do I.

    I've been not just working on these things for many years, but I've also been *praying* about them for many years. The views I hold now may appear to be novel, but they really are not. Most of my views are based on strong, historic views. They just do not adhere to a single school of thought.

    This is why it's so important that I not be falsely associated with a particular school, because it tends to falsely associate me with *all* that is believed in that particular school. I'm interested in exploring and sharing the particulars of my own belief system, and not be confused with every point in an eschatological system.

    I am not biased. I've changed my views many times. But I really do require both a sound argument against my views, along with the conviction from God that there is value in a different position. The positions I've been putting forward are regularly being misunderstood due to this conflation of my position with Partial Preterism.

    Yes, I share with PP the belief that the Olivet Discourse was focused primarily on the 1st generation of the Church. But my view of the Great Tribulation is regularly confused with other PPs. I do *not* believe the Great Tribulation was the 66-70 AD war! Rather, I believe the Great Triblation is the entire Jewish Diaspora in the NT age! The 66-70 AD War was merely the *beginning* of this age long ordeal for the Jewish People. The Great Tribulation will end with the Reign of Antichrist for 3.5 years at the end of this age.

  6. #126
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    There are "Scholars" that think Daniel wrote his book 300 years after he actually wrote it, I don't worry myself with what those types think. The vast majority of Christians understand that Daniel 11:35-45 is the future Anti-Christ, and then there are THE FEW who agree with your point of view.
    I don't know. That may depend on what time you are basing this statement on? At some points in history the prevailing view may have been that Dan 11 was about Antiochus, and not Antichrist. Currently, in America, the prevailing view seems to have been that Dan 11 is all about Antichrist. I don't believe that historically, the futurist view has been the prevailing one with respect to Dan 11. But I could be wrong.

    Incidentally, a "prevailing view" is not necessarily right. A completely "novel view" is, however, wrong.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    Anyone that thinks it through understands that the "scholars" type thinking goes against Jesus' own philosophy, he gave the Gospel to the BABES instead of the LEARNED MEN of his time, that pretty much tells us all we need to know about scholars IMHO.
    There's some truth in that, but there's truth in the opposite, as well. Lazy, untrained Christians must not think they can divide the word of truth without being responsible. Only when scholars put their own thoughts ahead of prayer and divine revelation do they end up in pride and failure.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I believe that which is about the Anti-Christ is about the AC and that which is not is not. Daniel 11:1-35 is NOT about the AC but verses 36-45 are about the AC.
    Your position has been noted. I just don't agree. I've compared the accounts of the last part of Dan 11 with the picture of Antiochus 4 in Dan 8. They are so similar that I feel they must both be about Antiochus 4.

    It is way more simple to separate Dan 8 and 11 from the picture of Antichrist we get in Dan 7! This false conflation of Antiochus 4 with Antichrist causes so many problems, I think! The false conflation of the 1290 days and 1335 days with the 1260 days causes so much confusion, I think!

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    In Daniel 8 verses 1-8 is NOT about the AC but verses 9-14 is about the AC. It is what it is brother. I will not call your opinion ridiculous because I respect peoples understandings even if they are in error. I am sure you are not repeating erroneous facts on purpose. You have a deep held belief. I think that my only beef with you is you seemingly attack other peoples positions without thinking it through, no one holds a position that they deem to be in error. Respect that even in disagreement brother, after all Christendom is about loving one another and even our enemies. So we should at least love and respect one another.
    I agree. I sincerely hold you to be my brother. I can clearly see that. I do respect your views. I look sincerely within your views to see what God may be telling me, whether I need correcting or you need correcting. It is all about what God thinks, and not about saving our personal pride, right?

    I'm always going to have flaws in the way I handle others. I too am a proud man who jumps to conclusions and acts rudely, at times. But I really do want to get it right, even if I have to dump my views at times.

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man
    I lay out my understandings clearly, its not ambiguous at all, and I use scriptures to back up my understandings.

    Prophecy is about edifying God, it says that in scriptures somewhere. I have to go to Zaxby's so I have to cut this short.

    The Church will be is Heaven during the Tribulation, we are not going o be worrying about anything brother.
    Thanks R-Man. We don't agree on the Pretrib Rapture, but hopefully we can continue to fellowship on the things that matter more, namely Christ himself?

  7. #127
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Thank you, ewq. It's been making me ornery, because I've been over-typing, and I've developed a bad case of tendenitis in my hands. I really want to distinguish my position, which is similar to PP, from it, because I think too much conflation occurs, and it throws off my points. I regularly have to explain that for me the "Great Tribulation" is not the 66-70 AD war. For me, the "Great Tribulation" is an age long ordeal for the Jewish People--the longest dispersion in Hebrew history.

    I think that, like Glory, you're a "brilliant" guy, both smart and a nice guy. I don't mind the comparison of my position with PP. I just wish to have my position distinguished from it, because clearly, for me there are important differences. I do embrace the PPs here for the things we have in common.
    Actually though, labels don't matter. Do you really think that once Jesus returns, that labels are going to matter? Do you envision Him putting all Partial Preterists in one section, Full Preterists in another section, Amils in another section, Premils in another section, etc, then they continuing to duke it out for eternity as to which position was the correct one?

    Here's an idea though. If you find it so offensive to be associated with that of Partial Preterists, maybe you shouldn't hold to some of the same views associated with them. Have you ever thought of that? But even so, I guess everyone has their personal pet peeves, and that this is apparently a peeve of yours.

  8. #128
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Completely novel is wrong IS wrong.
    Every explanation should be supportable by scripture means it isn't novel, yet the pulling together of that explanation may be one you have not heard or read and therefore is novel.
    Your own mix is novel as you state above it is not fitting to any particular previous presentation. Does that automatically make you wrong?
    I don't think so.
    Every view I propose is novel for me, and then I find others who have parts of what I suggest.
    One reason why much End Times is still debated is because a lot of the OLD proposed solutions don't quite fit. So we need what is new.
    God is a God of new things.

  9. #129
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't know. That may depend on what time you are basing this statement on? At some points in history the prevailing view may have been that Dan 11 was about Antiochus, and not Antichrist. Currently, in America, the prevailing view seems to have been that Dan 11 is all about Antichrist. I don't believe that historically, the futurist view has been the prevailing one with respect to Dan 11. But I could be wrong.

    Incidentally, a "prevailing view" is not necessarily right. A completely "novel view" is, however, wrong.
    I find that with the overall "Church" the prevailing theory is usually right because the Holy Spirit is always right. I find that the fringe thoughts that people like David Koresh or Jim Jones have are usually wrong. We might add modern day Joel Richardson and Herbert Armstrong of years gone by and even Ellen G. White, etc. etc. So while I understand your point, in that in other fields not led by the Holy Spirit this might be the case (like Scientists & Evolution) with the Church, I think the Cream rises to the top and the overall Church understandings are usually right. Not in every instance, there are some Satanic credo's that take root like "Thou shall not JUDGE" but for the most part on major truths the Church is overall correct in its thinks/understandings.

    There's some truth in that, but there's truth in the opposite, as well. Lazy, untrained Christians must not think they can divide the word of truth without being responsible. Only when scholars put their own thoughts ahead of prayer and divine revelation do they end up in pride and failure.
    I am not Knocking "Critical Thinking", I have a blog speaking of how and why the Universe is 13.7 Billion years old, and how the first "DAY" lasted 9.2 Billion years and ETC. ETC. all the way to how people who say Human Beings have been around 50 to 100 k years are wrong. The Bones of those are there, but they were not HUMAN BEINGS until God imparted His Spirit in us.....6000 years ago. Thus those are just Animals without a Soul.

    So I do all kind of out of the box thinking myself, but most of these guys are just not of God thus they can't see the things of God. I agree too many Christians are doing things they have not been called to do. They are in essence an ear trying to scratch a foot, and that is the hands job !!

    Your position has been noted. I just don't agree. I've compared the accounts of the last part of Dan 11 with the picture of Antiochus 4 in Dan 8. They are so similar that I feel they must both be about Antiochus 4.

    It is way more simple to separate Dan 8 and 11 from the picture of Antichrist we get in Dan 7! This false conflation of Antiochus 4 with Antichrist causes so many problems, I think! The false conflation of the 1290 days and 1335 days with the 1260 days causes so much confusion, I think!
    Well of course it matches brother, Daniel 8 is also about the Anti-Christ, it calls him the Little Horn just like chapter 7 does. Do you really think God would give us Two Little Horns in back to back chapters? And there really were no chapters. I contend chapter 7 & 8 actually go together like chapters 10, 11 and 12 are ONE VISION. The Riddle is the Little Horn arises out of Two Kingdoms at once, The Fourth Beast and the Lineage of the Greek Empire. Thus hes an Assyrian Turk born in Greece who rises to power via the E.U. and then Conquers North Africa, Lebanon and Israel among others to "COMPLETE THE CIRCLE OF POWER" and thus the New Beast will look just like the Old Roman Empire, see the Maps in post #123 ABOVE.

    So while I understand the similarities with chapter 8, Daniel 8:8 is about Alexander the Great and his Four Generals who arise later. Verses 9-14 is about the coming Little Horn/Anti-Christ, not Antiochus Epiphanes. Its an END TIME EVENT, and Gabriel clearly states that Jesus would do battle with him.

    Daniel 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

    25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart {Claim hes God}, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince {Jesus} of princes; but he shall be broken without hand {By the Holy Spirit}.

    (Verse 23) Greece is STILL AROUND, the LATTER TIME of their Kingdom is now of course. The Sins COMING FULL of course means Gods Wrath is overflowing with the Sins of this world and thus the sins of the Greeks and with those that love Wickedness !! The Anti-Christ understands DARK RIDDLES because he is given his seat of POWER by Satan/Dragon and preforms Miracles. Antiochus worshiped Zeus.

    (Verse 24) He shall be POWERFUL, but not by his own power. Well Antiochus was not that powerful, Rome ordered him around, this man that is described receives his SEAT OF POWER from Satan just as Rev. 13 says....................

    Rev. 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

    Rev. 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

    The Jews beat back the attack by Antiochus even though he killed many of them, he never DESTROYED the Holy Peoples !! Antiochus died on the Eastern Front. This man will be GIVEN POWER by the Dragon, Antiochus was not even powerful enough to rule over Rome, he was their punk so to speak !!

    (Verse 25) We see here that this man is an END TIME Beast !! He claims he is God whereas Antiochus worshiped Zeus and sacrificed a PIG unto Zeus in the Temple of God. BY PEACE he shall destroy many !! This means of course the End Time 70th Week Peace Agreement shown in Daniel 9:27. Rev. ch. 6 says that PEACE is taken from the world !! He then stands up against Jesus (Prince of princes) and is BROKEN without hand just like Daniel 2 says, the ROCK SMASHES THE STATUE............WITHOUT HANDS !! = By the Holy Spirit.

    The Vision is about 1150 Days NOT 2300 Days. Its 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations.

    As per the 1290 and 1335. Hardly anyone gets this at all. The Holy Spirit gave this to me recently as clear as a bell.

    1335 = The Two-witnesses show up 75 Days BEFORE the Day of the Lord just like Malachi 4:5-6 says, as per BEFORE.

    1290 = the Abomination of Desolation set up by the False Prophet, it happens 30 days before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem becoming THE BEAST.

    1260 = The Anti-Christ Conquering Jerusalem/Israel/Mediterranean Sea Region. It happens in the Middle of the Week. Its the First Seal being opened.

    Most people don't even reply to this because they can't even seem to comprehend it. I never spoke about this before because I just never understood it, I am not one to put something forth without guidance from the Holy Spirit.

    I agree. I sincerely hold you to be my brother. I can clearly see that. I do respect your views. I look sincerely within your views to see what God may be telling me, whether I need correcting or you need correcting. It is all about what God thinks, and not about saving our personal pride, right?

    I'm always going to have flaws in the way I handle others. I too am a proud man who jumps to conclusions and acts rudely, at times. But I really do want to get it right, even if I have to dump my views at times.
    Now let me EXPLAIN HOW YOU ARE WRONG !! Just kidding

    Thanks R-Man. We don't agree on the Pretrib Rapture, but hopefully we can continue to fellowship on the things that matter more, namely Christ himself?
    Touche brother....pardon my French.

  10. #130
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Revelation Man View Post
    There are "Scholars" that think Daniel wrote his book 300 years after he actually wrote it, I don't worry myself with what those types think. The vast majority of Christians understand that Daniel 11:35-45 is the future Anti-Christ, and then there are THE FEW who agree with your point of view. Anyone that thinks it through understands that the "scholars" type thinking goes against Jesus' own philosophy, he gave the Gospel to the BABES instead of the LEARNED MEN of his time, that pretty much tells us all we need to know about scholars IMHO. I believe that which is about the Anti-Christ is about the AC and that which is not is not. Daniel 11:1-35 is NOT about the AC but verses 36-45 are about the AC. In Daniel 8 verses 1-8 is NOT about the AC but verses 9-14 is about the AC. It is what it is brother. I will not call your opinion ridiculous because I respect peoples understandings even if they are in error. I am sure you are not repeating erroneous facts on purpose. You have a deep held belief. I think that my only beef with you is you seemingly attack other peoples positions without thinking it through, no one holds a position that they deem to be in error. Respect that even in disagreement brother, after all Christendom is about loving one another and even our enemies. So we should at least love and respect one another.

    I lay out my understandings clearly, its not ambiguous at all, and I use scriptures to back up my understandings.

    Prophecy is about edifying God, it says that in scriptures somewhere. I have to go to Zaxby's so I have to cut this short.

    The Church will be is Heaven during the Tribulation, we are not going o be worrying about anything brother.
    The "vast majority" that supposedly attribute Dan 11:35-45 to the future AC probably hasn't really studied the Book of Daniel properly to ascertain what is fulfilled and what is still future.

    The make the case for the Antichrist in vs 35-45, you must also tell us who the king of the south is and the war AC fights against him? Please do not fob me off with some elaborate conjecture. You must support your case with scripture. For, if we can identify every king of the north and south in Dan 11:1-35, surely the king of the south from 35-45 should not be an indecipherable mystery?

    So unless you can explain:

    1. Who is the king of the south?
    2. The war in v40?
    3. The disturbing tidings he heard in v44?
    4. Please identify the cities that are *east* and *north* respectively?

    If you can't address these satisfactorily, I personally, will disregard your argument here as a very bad case of misinterpretation.

    Your poor understanding of some of Daniel's visions is again highlighted by erroneously attributing Dan 8:9-14 to the future Antichrist. This particular desecration was fulfilled by Antiochus. The key to separating it from AC's future desolation is in vs 13-14 when Daniel asked the angel how long the desolation would be and was told 2300 days. And that the temple would be CLEANSED thereafter. This is lacking in AC's AoD in Dan 12.

    After Lysias, Antiochus' general capitulated, Judah Maccabees (a priest in his own right) entered the temple and consecrated it (1 Maccabees 4:36-59). The rededication of the temple occurred on the 25th of Kislev, exactly 2300 days from the last Jewish sacrifice. The celebrations lasted for eight days and Judah Maccabees decreed that it would be designated as days of rejoicing for future generations” (“Hanukkah,” vol.7, p.1283).

    As mentioned earlier, there is ZERO prophecy about the cleansing of the temple and resumption of sacrifice after Antichrist's AoD. I will challenge you to prove me wrong! Daniel saw TWO distinct visions about the desolation of the temple (AoD). The first was fulfilled by A4E in Dan 8 and 11 verse 31-32. But 2nd which Jesus referred to in the OD (Matt 24:15) is found in Dan 12:11. This is supported when earlier in vs 7 the angel told Daniel that the timeline for the *wonders*( i.e. The G.T and Michael standing up for Daniel's people, Dan 12:1) will be for "a time, times and half a time". This coincides with the AC's 3.5 years reign.

    The irony (I must give credit where it is due) is that thanks to YOU -- it was you that brought my attention to the AoD in Dan 12 in another OP examining the timeline of the setting up of the AoD and the escape of Israel into the desert in the end times. I recall you did a fascinating exposition pointing out that the AC will show up from 1290 days to the Return of Jesus. You further asserted that the Jews will have about "30 days (1335) to get out of Dodge"; i.e. time to escape before Jerusalem falls to the AC. On that occasion, you were on point and I doff my hat to you.

    In Dan 12 the AoD is set up at 1,290 days. But the start point of A4E AoD was not stated, rather we are told it will last for 2300 days before the temple is cleansed. This is clearly an unambiguous contrast that a blind man can see. I'll leave you to do the Maths because at the 2300 days point, Jesus has not returned and Armageddon has not been fought. So please tell us who has the 'liver' to go and rededicate the temple while the AC is enjoying his "little season"?

    I have said this several times that when you're spot on, you have the knack of dissecting what is hitherto unknown with awe-inspiring clarity. Unfortunately, when you are wrong (we're all fallible I suppose) you still argue with such conceit as if God gave you exclusive access to knowledge and everyone else is a dullard.

  11. #131
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The "vast majority" that supposedly attribute Dan 11:35-45 to the future AC probably hasn't really studied the Book of Daniel properly to ascertain what is fulfilled and what is still future.

    The make the case for the Antichrist in vs 35-45, you must also tell us who the king of the south is and the war AC fights against him? Please do not fob me off with some elaborate conjecture. You must support your case with scripture. For, if we can identify every king of the north and south in Dan 11:1-35, surely the king of the south from 35-45 should not be an indecipherable mystery?

    So unless you can explain:

    1. Who is the king of the south?
    2. The war in v40?
    3. The disturbing tidings he heard in v44?
    4. Please identify the cities that are *east* and *north* respectively?

    If you can't address these satisfactorily, I personally, will disregard your argument here as a very bad case of misinterpretation.

    Your poor understanding of some of Daniel's visions is again highlighted by erroneously attributing Dan 8:9-14 to the future Antichrist. This particular desecration was fulfilled by Antiochus. The key to separating it from AC's future desolation is in vs 13-14 when Daniel asked the angel how long the desolation would be and was told 2300 days. And that the temple would be CLEANSED thereafter. This is lacking in AC's AoD in Dan 12.

    After Lysias, Antiochus' general capitulated, Judah Maccabees (a priest in his own right) entered the temple and consecrated it (1 Maccabees 4:36-59). The rededication of the temple occurred on the 25th of Kislev, exactly 2300 days from the last Jewish sacrifice. The celebrations lasted for eight days and Judah Maccabees decreed that it would be designated as days of rejoicing for future generations” (“Hanukkah,” vol.7, p.1283).

    As mentioned earlier, there is ZERO prophecy about the cleansing of the temple and resumption of sacrifice after Antichrist's AoD. I will challenge you to prove me wrong! Daniel saw TWO distinct visions about the desolation of the temple (AoD). The first was fulfilled by A4E in Dan 8 and 11 verse 31-32. But 2nd which Jesus referred to in the OD (Matt 24:15) is found in Dan 12:11. This is supported when earlier in vs 7 the angel told Daniel that the timeline for the *wonders*( i.e. The G.T and Michael standing up for Daniel's people, Dan 12:1) will be for "a time, times and half a time". This coincides with the AC's 3.5 years reign.

    The irony (I must give credit where it is due) is that thanks to YOU -- it was you that brought my attention to the AoD in Dan 12 in another OP examining the timeline of the setting up of the AoD and the escape of Israel into the desert in the end times. I recall you did a fascinating exposition pointing out that the AC will show up from 1290 days to the Return of Jesus. You further asserted that the Jews will have about "30 days (1335) to get out of Dodge"; i.e. time to escape before Jerusalem falls to the AC. On that occasion, you were on point and I doff my hat to you.

    In Dan 12 the AoD is set up at 1,290 days. But the start point of A4E AoD was not stated, rather we are told it will last for 2300 days before the temple is cleansed. This is clearly an unambiguous contrast that a blind man can see. I'll leave you to do the Maths because at the 2300 days point, Jesus has not returned and Armageddon has not been fought. So please tell us who has the 'liver' to go and rededicate the temple while the AC is enjoying his "little season"?

    I have said this several times that when you're spot on, you have the knack of dissecting what is hitherto unknown with awe-inspiring clarity. Unfortunately, when you are wrong (we're all fallible I suppose) you still argue with such conceit as if God gave you exclusive access to knowledge and everyone else is a dullard.


    One has to also consider timing clues in the texts involved. You for some reason choose to ignore those.

    Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

    There's not multiple times of the end. There can only be one, and if the time of the end has already occurred, and that it allegedly occurred prior to the 1st coming, let alone the 2nd coming, how did the first coming logically occur after the time of the end?

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Apparently the time of the end leads to the end, the end meant in verse 13. So where's Daniel at then if it's already past the time of the end which should have led to the end meant in verse 13?

  12. #132
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Actually though, labels don't matter. Do you really think that once Jesus returns, that labels are going to matter? Do you envision Him putting all Partial Preterists in one section, Full Preterists in another section, Amils in another section, Premils in another section, etc, then they continuing to duke it out for eternity as to which position was the correct one?

    Here's an idea though. If you find it so offensive to be associated with that of Partial Preterists, maybe you shouldn't hold to some of the same views associated with them. Have you ever thought of that? But even so, I guess everyone has their personal pet peeves, and that this is apparently a peeve of yours.
    Well, David, it isn't about being labeled as much as it is others confusing my position with *all* of the positions associated with Partial Preterism. I've had a difficult time communicating my view of the Great Tribulation precisely because my view is looked at as if it is Partial Preterism. And Partial Preterism views the Great Tribulation as something completed in the 1st century.

    I don't. I hold to the common PP view that the Great Tribulation took place in the 66-70 AD war. But unlike them I see the Great Tribulation as continuing throughout the age in the form of the Jewish Diaspora.

    And so, my wish to be disassociated with PP is not just because I hold non-Preterist views, but also because my views are confused with their views.

    I don't want others thinking I see Nero as the Antichrist, or that Christ came back in 70 AD. I don't want others thinking I believe the book of Revelation is all about the ancient Roman Empire. That's why I don't want to be associated with PP!

  13. #133
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I hold to the common PP view that the Great Tribulation took place in the 66-70 AD war. But unlike them I see the Great Tribulation as continuing throughout the age in the form of the Jewish Diaspora.
    That is, I believe, a new theological position. The Great Trib started in Ad 70 and continues until it's ending in the unknown future. (I don't agree just trying to understand and explain) Any confusion should be blamed on that.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The "vast majority" that supposedly attribute Dan 11:35-45 to the future AC probably hasn't really studied the Book of Daniel properly to ascertain what is fulfilled and what is still future.

    The make the case for the Antichrist in vs 35-45, you must also tell us who the king of the south is and the war AC fights against him? Please do not fob me off with some elaborate conjecture. You must support your case with scripture. For, if we can identify every king of the north and south in Dan 11:1-35, surely the king of the south from 35-45 should not be an indecipherable mystery?

    So unless you can explain:

    1. Who is the king of the south?
    2. The war in v40?
    3. The disturbing tidings he heard in v44?
    4. Please identify the cities that are *east* and *north* respectively?

    If you can't address these satisfactorily, I personally, will disregard your argument here as a very bad case of misinterpretation.
    We know each King of the North and King of the South now because they are HISTORY. You are not telling me people knew who Antiochus Epiphanes was 100 years before he was born are you? So yes we know because they have come and gone. I know where the Anti-Christ is born, that HE is the King of the North, but most don't have a clue who he is, I have a good idea who the Anti-Christ is, but since hes not supposed to be Revealed until later, after the Rapture, I just leave it alone. Its conjecture, not Revelation. So your whole thesis about knowing the KOTN and the KOTS leaves a lot to be desired seeing as we have known them for 2000 years, they are HISTORIC FIGURES, of course we know who they were. We are not living in the future yet, I suspect we will know who the KOTS and the KOTN is in 100 years !! You are mixing apples and oranges.

    The War in vs. 40 is obvious, its when the Anti-Christ CONQUERS THE MANY in the Middle of the Week. I have already stated what the tidings in vs. 44 means might want to go back and read it. Nothing is East and North, its two Countries. Common sense tells you what? When Europe becomes a World Power Militarily, there will be three major players on that side of the world, I suspect after the Rapture the USA to fall from within, the kooks will be left. So you have the E.U. and Russia to the North and China to the East. The Kings of the East in Rev. 16 is not China however, its Iran/Iraq/Maybe the King of Syria.

    Your poor understanding of some of Daniel's visions is again highlighted by erroneously attributing Dan 8:9-14 to the future Antichrist. This particular desecration was fulfilled by Antiochus. The key to separating it from AC's future desolation is in vs 13-14 when Daniel asked the angel how long the desolation would be and was told 2300 days. And that the temple would be CLEANSED thereafter. This is lacking in AC's AoD in Dan 12.
    The 2300 is not days, it tells you that in the Hebrew Text. Its 2300 Evening and Mornings, referring to Oblations. Thus it would be 1150 days. At the end of the Chapter where the SAME TEXT is used it says this is the Vision of the EVENING & MORNING.

    The same word is translated EVENING and MORNING here but Days in verse 14 !! Its TWO WORDS not one, there are 2 Numbers behind Days.

    26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

    I can show you better than I can tell you, but I probably have showed it to you before. The Hebrew Masoretic BELOW:

    8:26 And the vision 4758 of the evening 6153 and the morning 1242 which x834 was told 559 z8738 [is] true: 571 wherefore shut thou up 5640 z8798 x859 the vision; 2377 for x3588 it [shall be] for many 7227 days. 3117

    Notice the TWO NUMBERS in the Red above? WATCH !! Same words translated DIFFERENTLY = I am left Dumbfounded.

    8:14 And he said 559 z8799 unto x413 me, Unto x5704 two thousand 505 and three 7969 hundred 3967 days; 6153 1242 then shall the sanctuary 6944 be cleansed. 6663 z8738

    SAME TWO NUMBERS now translated as Days instead of EVENING and MORNING !! Which is right? Well lets have a look see.

    6153 - Hebrew word = EREB meaning DUSK
    1242 - Hebrew word = BOREQ meaning DAWN

    So its 2300 Evening and Mornings which = 1150 Days. So there are 1150 Oblations that are missed. That falls inside the 1260 days the Anti-Christ rules over Jerusalem for 42 Months, thus DEFILING the Temple. To understand what this EVENING OBLATION is, lets look at Daniel 9:21 where Gabriel showed up at the EVENING OBLATION !!

    Daniel 9:21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation.

    Am I just wasting my effort here or do you follow these facts here? The EVENING OBLATION is a TRIBUTE/Prayer unto God. 2300 Evening and Morning Oblations = 1150 DAYS !! The same TWO WORDS are translated Evening and Morning in verse 26. We have the English Translators conflating and confusing people here, the Jews must be laughing at us for calling this 2300 Days !! COME ON !!

    So you get the number of days wrong, and I know I have went over this here at least 2 or 3 times. People just tune out what they don't want to hear. Facts be gone, I will not hear thee !! The Daniel 8:9-14 verses is also the same thing Gabriel interprets in verses 23-25. It is the Anti-Christ. Its Obviously the Little Horn/Anti-Christ. You have to be able to get the number of days right or you have no chance, its 1150 Days, anyone saying 2300 has NO SHOT at understanding this Prophecy IMHO.

    After Lysias, Antiochus' general capitulated, Judah Maccabees (a priest in his own right) entered the temple and consecrated it (1 Maccabees 4:36-59). The rededication of the temple occurred on the 25th of Kislev, exactly 2300 days from the last Jewish sacrifice. The celebrations lasted for eight days and Judah Maccabees decreed that it would be designated as days of rejoicing for future generations” (“Hanukkah,” vol.7, p.1283).
    You are on the 2300 Days. Its just not going to work at all via what is written my friend, not for me.

    As mentioned earlier, there is ZERO prophecy about the cleansing of the temple and resumption of sacrifice after Antichrist's AoD. I will challenge you to prove me wrong! Daniel saw TWO distinct visions about the desolation of the temple (AoD). The first was fulfilled by A4E in Dan 8 and 11 verse 31-32. But 2nd which Jesus referred to in the OD (Matt 24:15) is found in Dan 12:11. This is supported when earlier in vs 7 the angel told Daniel that the timeline for the *wonders*( i.e. The G.T and Michael standing up for Daniel's people, Dan 12:1) will be for "a time, times and half a time". This coincides with the AC's 3.5 years reign.
    Sure there is, you are looking at it here. After 1150 Days of the Anti-Christ the Temple will be Cleansed. There is no need to speak about a Cleansing of the Temple in the New Testament. Its obvious unto us that when Jesus Returns all things evil will be put away for at least 1000 years. Jesus is Anointed the King of kings and Lord of lords, do we need to be told the Lords Temple will be Cleansed when Jesus shows up in the New Testament? That's a given. But in Daniel 8 we are told the Temple will be CLEANSED via the Old Testament. Daniel 8 is abut the Anti-Christ its VERY CLEAR, he comes against the Prince (Jesus) of princes in the LATTER TIME, you just have it auto tuned-out of reality brother. I challenge you to look at Daniel 8:23-25 again with an open mind, you have a keen awareness, but I think at times we all get tunnel vision. I used to a lot until about 5 years ago when everything seemed stale, so I emptied my mind of all my learned understandings and said SHOW ME God, your understandings, not mine, nor other men's, and it worked.

    The irony (I must give credit where it is due) is that thanks to YOU -- it was you that brought my attention to the AoD in Dan 12 in another OP examining the timeline of the setting up of the AoD and the escape of Israel into the desert in the end times. I recall you did a fascinating exposition pointing out that the AC will show up from 1290 days to the Return of Jesus. You further asserted that the Jews will have about "30 days (1335) to get out of Dodge"; i.e. time to escape before Jerusalem falls to the AC. On that occasion, you were on point and I doff my hat to you.
    Well you kinda conflated a few things here. The AC shows up at the 1260, the False Prophet places the AoD in the Temple at the 1290 which is 30 days before the 1260 and the 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up 75 days before the AC Conquers Jerusalem to turn Israel back unto God (Malachi 4:5-6).

    In Dan 12 the AoD is set up at 1,290 days. But the start point of A4E AoD was not stated, rather we are told it will last for 2300 days before the temple is cleansed. This is clearly an unambiguous contrast that a blind man can see. I'll leave you to do the Maths because at the 2300 days point, Jesus has not returned and Armageddon has not been fought. So please tell us who has the 'liver' to go and rededicate the temple while the AC is enjoying his "little season"?
    You are going to have to look at this 2300 brother. Its not what it seems. Here's the thing, there are many, many write ups about this online besides my point here. Its a well know fact in Christian Circles in the know that this is actually 1150 days. Research it brother.

    When you research this 2300 days and finally get it you are going to say, WOW, I was duped by English Translators on this for years !! That's what I said, because its SO OBVIOUS, they translate the same two words DIFFERENTLY within 12 verses !! Verse 14 and 26 are translated different for NO REASON AT ALL, and they even say its the VISION of the Evening and Morning !!!!! (LOL) I do not to this day know what in the world they could have been thinking about or how that got by their bosses !!

  15. #135
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    Re: So who's this Anti-Christ character?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    One has to also consider timing clues in the texts involved. You for some reason choose to ignore those.

    Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

    There's not multiple times of the end. There can only be one, and if the time of the end has already occurred, and that it allegedly occurred prior to the 1st coming, let alone the 2nd coming, how did the first coming logically occur after the time of the end?

    Daniel 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

    Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    Apparently the time of the end leads to the end, the end meant in verse 13. So where's Daniel at then if it's already past the time of the end which should have led to the end meant in verse 13?
    We have had these discussions in the past. Your understanding of the "times of the end" is incorrect. Each time of the end in Daniel can be easily understood by its context, but you rather choose to lob them all into one -- the end-times.

    You were wrong before by claiming it is end-time and you're wrong now too.

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