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Thread: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

  1. #91
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by JChesney View Post
    when I had conversations on similar subjects with representatives of the Orthodox Church, Muslims and Jews, there was agreement that a sin is called when a person commits it. Predisposition is not a sin, a person can lead an asexual lifestyle and can not be condemned for "homosexuality" according to the Scriptures. Scripture condemns sin itself, and in regard to predisposition the Scripture is silent. It is in the style of medieval superstition to make a fuss about the words of Pope Francis, because in his words there is nothing wrong and contrary to Scripture.
    What do you mean by "medieval superstition"


    Jude
    Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


  2. #92

    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    What do you mean by "medieval superstition"


    Jude
    it is obscurantism

  3. #93
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by JChesney View Post
    it is obscurantism
    i thought you meant something like this..

    http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm


    Jude
    Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.


  4. #94
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by JChesney View Post
    Are you so superstitious that for you a homosexual and a maniac is the same thing?
    Sinful behavior is sinful behavior. Why would the pope excuse one and not another? Although now that I think about it, the Catholic Church helped loads of Nazis escape justice after World War 2. So maybe they do excuse sinful behavior in general...
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  5. #95
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Sinful behavior is sinful behavior. Why would the pope excuse one and not another? Although now that I think about it, the Catholic Church helped loads of Nazis escape justice after World War 2. So maybe they do excuse sinful behavior in general...
    That's the key, sinful behavior. If a man has sex with another man a sin is committed. If he lusts after another man a sin is arguably committed, if we take the words of Jesus into account. If he is attracted to another man he has nothing more than a desire. It's no different to a heterosexual man and women other than his wife. If he has sex with another woman a sin is committed. If he lusts after another woman a sin is commited. If he is attracted to another woman he has nothing more than a desire. The argument that someone sins merely for the desires they have leaves us all without hope - we can't argue that the homosexual sins simply by being attracted to other man without also arguing that the heterosexual sins simply by being attracted to women he is not married to. If it's not a sin to for a man to see a pretty girl and think "hey, she's kinda cute" how is it any more sinful if he sees a handsome man and thinks "hey, he's kinda cute"?

    Comparing them to a killer still works. If a man kills his neighbor a sin is committed. If he dwells on hating his neighbor and thinks in detail about how he might kill him a sin is committed, if we take the words of Jesus into account. If he responds to some event with a momentary descent of the red mist as he wishes harm on his neighbor but it then passes and he doesn't dwell on it, no sin is committed - he has nothing more than a transient desire.

    There's a difference with homosexuals in that there is no scenario covered by Scripture that allows them to find a long-term partner and express their sexual desires. That doesn't mean it's sinful to have the desires, only to express them physically.

  6. #96
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    The pope said 'God made you like that and loves you like that'. Now, God created each of us the way we are. With our gifts and also with our character flaws. Our gifts are meant to be exercised and out character flaws are meant to be overcome. God doesn't "love" our flaws, He gave us them as challenges. The pope wouldn't tell a serial killer "God loves you like that". He would tell the person that need to overcome their base impulses. The same is true for homosexuality.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  7. #97
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    The Catholic Church is becoming a vehicle for excusing bad behavior. "It doesn't matter if you lead a life contrary to the bible's values. Of course God will forgive you, that's what He's there for."
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The pope said 'God made you like that and loves you like that'. Now, God created each of us the way we are. With our gifts and also with our character flaws. Our gifts are meant to be exercised and out character flaws are meant to be overcome. God doesn't "love" our flaws, He gave us them as challenges. The pope wouldn't tell a serial killer "God loves you like that". He would tell the person that need to overcome their base impulses. The same is true for homosexuality.
    Amen Fenris. Amen.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The pope said 'God made you like that and loves you like that'. Now, God created each of us the way we are. With our gifts and also with our character flaws. Our gifts are meant to be exercised and out character flaws are meant to be overcome. God doesn't "love" our flaws, He gave us them as challenges. The pope wouldn't tell a serial killer "God loves you like that". He would tell the person that need to overcome their base impulses. The same is true for homosexuality.
    Well stated.......
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  10. #100
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    The pope said 'God made you like that and loves you like that'. Now, God created each of us the way we are. With our gifts and also with our character flaws. Our gifts are meant to be exercised and out character flaws are meant to be overcome. God doesn't "love" our flaws, He gave us them as challenges. The pope wouldn't tell a serial killer "God loves you like that". He would tell the person that need to overcome their base impulses. The same is true for homosexuality.
    I agree we are meant to overcome flaws. But to say God doesn't love our flaws doesn't mean he loves flawed people any less does it? I love my wife but there are some things she does that make me want to strangle her. I don't love those particular aspects of her but it would be wrong to say I love her as a person any less. I can see why people might say the choice of words was unfortunate but I'd have thought it was better to approach people with the love of Christ than with the "GOD HATES FAGS" approach of people like the Westboto Baptist bunch.

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonajero View Post
    I agree we are meant to overcome flaws. But to say God doesn't love our flaws doesn't mean he loves flawed people any less does it? I love my wife but there are some things she does that make me want to strangle her. I don't love those particular aspects of her but it would be wrong to say I love her as a person any less. I can see why people might say the choice of words was unfortunate but I'd have thought it was better to approach people with the love of Christ than with the "GOD HATES FAGS" approach of people like the Westboto Baptist bunch.
    I believe Judaism (correct me if I am wrong Fenris) a fundamental aspect that Judaism represents, is the morality of guilt rather than shame.

    To clarify, from a guilt perspective, the act is wrong, not the person. This is what makes forgiveness possible. A person is forgiven because when they admit they were wrong, express remorse and do (repent) all they can to turn from that wrong, that is - refrain from the act when the next opportunity arises - that change is noted.

    This is also a Christian perspective.

    By contrast secular systems shame the person for the wrong doing. In this setting, when someone is found to have done wrong, they are publically shamed. In this tension; that the main thing for the guilty person to do is not be found out, because once exposed, there is no way back. And when exposed the guilty person will shift the blame on appeasement, such as "I couldn't help it," or "it wasn't so bad" or blame someone else "the devil made me do it." Usually accompanied by some form of self abasement. Confession is not a good think in secular shame cultures. Or just renounce righteousness altogether.

    So in both Judaism and in Christianity, what matters is when we do wrong is this - there is a way out - confession, remorse, repentance (change). Now forgiveness is possible, grace is extended and it gives all of us hope. We need to always, always, always keep this ideal when it comes to the lost and never, ever shame them as a human being or lessen their intrinsic value as a human being.

    So in Biblical cultures, confession is a good thing.

    And my friend, this is how lives are changed.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  12. #102
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    I agree with all of this. There's still the question of whether the gay man that the whole discussion is about is a gay man in the sense that he desires other men or a gay man in the sense that he has sex with other men. If the former there isn't any wrongdoing to be confessed. If the latter then there is.

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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonajero View Post
    I agree we are meant to overcome flaws. But to say God doesn't love our flaws doesn't mean he loves flawed people any less does it?
    God loves us and expects us to overcome our flaws. Or at least make an attempt. What the Pope is saying is that God loves the flawed person just the way they are; that they don't need to change at all. They don't even need to try.

    Westboto Baptist bunch.
    They're a hate group. They are not Christian.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  14. #104

    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Strange comments.

    God does love them "like that," but He didn't "make them like that."

  15. #105
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    Re: Pope Francis tells gay man: 'God made you like that and loves you like that'

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I believe Judaism (correct me if I am wrong Fenris) a fundamental aspect that Judaism represents, is the morality of guilt rather than shame.

    To clarify, from a guilt perspective, the act is wrong, not the person. This is what makes forgiveness possible. A person is forgiven because when they admit they were wrong, express remorse and do (repent) all they can to turn from that wrong, that is - refrain from the act when the next opportunity arises - that change is noted.
    Very well said. Very well articulated.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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