View Poll Results: What did Jesus mean by this statement? "standing in the Holy Place"

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  • the Antichrist will take his seat in God's temple, a rebuilt Jewish temple

    5 41.67%
  • the Antichrist will in effect declare himself to be God, though not in a physical temple

    5 41.67%
  • the Roman Army will stand in the gates of Jerusalem, besieging the city

    1 8.33%
  • the Roman Army actually stood inside Jerusalem, destroying the temple

    2 16.67%
  • the Romans abused the temple tax

    0 0%
  • the Jewish People abused the temple

    0 0%
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Thread: "standing in the Holy Place?"

  1. #376
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Well, you would be wrong, although many Christians may sign onto it. To follow Christ *is* to follow law. ?
    "The law of love". But that's a principle too, not a law.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  2. #377
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    "The law of love". But that's a principle too, not a law.
    You've been misled by many Christians, who are confused by NT theology, and end up in a kind of antinomian theology of grace. The laws are extracted from the Law of Moses and applied to the Law of Christ.

    Don't get confused about it. Christianity doesn't need a new set of laws, since they were already given to Israel at Sinai. The Law has simply been converted over in recognition that the Law, and its superstructure/infrastructure falls short of enabling Man to return to Paradise.

    Thus, the temple, priesthood, and animal sacrifices had to be fulfilled by Christ, who in turn applies his mercy to us to obtain for us what the Law could not obtain--eternal life. The laws otherwise remain the same. Eliminate all of the laws having to do with redemption through the temple system, and you have Christian Law.

    I think the real problem for Jews and for others here is that they see no relationship between redemption and Sabbath law, dietary law, and festivals surrounding Jerusalem. But in reality, all of these laws, for the Christian, imply a system of redemption that temporarily upheld Israel until Christ could come and completely fulfil them.

    Otherwise, Christian laws concerning justice and righteousness remain steadfast. If you remove all of the purification, priestly, and redemption laws, what you have left are justice and righteousness laws. These remain rules in Christianity, as you can easily see in New Testament teachings.

  3. #378
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You've been misled by many Christians, who are confused by NT theology, and end up in a kind of antinomian theology of grace. The laws are extracted from the Law of Moses and applied to the Law of Christ.
    What "law"? Do tell.

    I think the real problem for Jews and for others here is that they see no relationship between redemption and Sabbath law, dietary law, and festivals surrounding Jerusalem. But in reality, all of these laws, for the Christian, imply a system of redemption that temporarily upheld Israel until Christ could come and completely fulfil them.
    Laws aren't mean to be "fulfilled". They're to be followed when they apply in a situation. I don't see how someone else doing them exempts me or anyone else. Besides which the entire law doesn't even apply to any one individual. Some laws only apply to Cohen-priests, or Levites, or non priests and Levites. Or only men. Or only women. Or only the king. Or only farmers... and on and on. No one person could "fulfill" the law because no one person could follow all the law. Only the entirety of the Jewish people could follow the law.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #379
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    What "law"? Do tell.

    Laws aren't mean to be "fulfilled". They're to be followed when they apply in a situation. I don't see how someone else doing them exempts me or anyone else. Besides which the entire law doesn't even apply to any one individual. Some laws only apply to Cohen-priests, or Levites, or non priests and Levites. Or only men. Or only women. Or only the king. Or only farmers... and on and on. No one person could "fulfill" the law because no one person could follow all the law. Only the entirety of the Jewish people could follow the law.
    Again, you're being thrown off by "Christianese." Fulfillment is something that relates to biblical prophecy. Christians believe Jesus fulfilled Messianic Prophecy. In doing so, he obtained eternal redemption, in replacement for temporary redemption. Jesus called this "eternal life." In Jewish Prophecy, this is called "the Age to Come."

    The Laws of Moses were bundled together in a package of "temporary redemption." It kept Israel good with God until national apostasy took place. Breaking the contract of the Law meant the failure of redemption, or a failure of the relationship between God and Israel.

    The Law of Christ bundles the laws of Moses under a new package that eliminates the superstructure governing temporary redemption. The Apostle Paul called these facets of the Law "shadows" of Christ. When Christ came he provided a new superstructure for the Law, still requiring righteousness and justice, but eliminating the things that he made redundant by his atonement.

    If Jesus provided eternal atonement, what left is there for the priesthood of Israel to accomplish--nothing! What need is there for a temple where animal sacrifices are offered--not. All of the things that kept Israel temporarily in check, so as to maintain their relationship with God, were no longer needed.

    The nation was split down the middle between those who wanted to remain under a conditional system and those who wanted eternal redemption. This is the choice between Christ and the Law. I'm not going to judge the hearts of individuals. It is a process, in my opinion. But there is no question that law and works are part of the Christian system. They are, however, part of a partnership with Christ, just as keeping the Law is part of Israel's relationship with God.

  5. #380
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Again, you're being thrown off by "Christianese." Fulfillment is something that relates to biblical prophecy. Christians believe Jesus fulfilled Messianic Prophecy. In doing so, he obtained eternal redemption, in replacement for temporary redemption.
    I don't understand any of this. He fulfilled messianic prophecy and therefore earned eternal redemption? Where is that in the bible, anywhere?

    The Laws of Moses were bundled together in a package of "temporary redemption." It kept Israel good with God until national apostasy took place. Breaking the contract of the Law meant the failure of redemption,
    Where is any of this in the bible?

    The Law of Christ bundles the laws of Moses under a new package that eliminates the superstructure governing temporary redemption. The Apostle Paul called these facets of the Law "shadows" of Christ. When Christ came he provided a new superstructure for the Law, still requiring righteousness and justice, but eliminating the things that he made redundant by his atonement.
    You keep using this term, "bundles", to imply that the faiths are the same. But they're not. Jews are obligated to follow laws under the tenets of their faith.This is the fundamental concept of the religion. Christians are are obligated to believe... something... hard to get anyone to define exactly what it is. In any case, it's quite different from the parent religion.

    If Jesus provided eternal atonement, what left is there for the priesthood of Israel to accomplish--nothing! What need is there for a temple where animal sacrifices are offered--not. All of the things that kept Israel temporarily in check, so as to maintain their relationship with God, were no longer needed.
    There's no concept of "eternal atonement" in Judaism. Life is a test, every day one faces challenges and either they succeed or they fail. When we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and strive again. It's what gives human existence meaning.

    The nation was split down the middle between those who wanted to remain under a conditional system and those who wanted eternal redemption.
    Again, I don't know what this means. What we "want" is not relevant. God told us what He expects. Either we follow His wishes or we don't. That's it.

    But there is no question that law and works are part of the Christian system.
    Take it up with your fellow Christians who teach otherwise...
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  6. #381
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Jesuslovesus View Post
    No offense but i don't think the current form of Judaism is a rule based religion either. Isn't your whole religion predicated on Belief just like ours? If i follow all the Laws but don't believe in God is that OK since "Following the Law in the Principle?"

    Reminds me of the parable in Matt 21:28-32
    It is impossible to "follow the law" without believing in God because the law was given by God. Is it possible to follow/adhere to the US constitution and not believe in America?

    Jews never stopped believing in God, the only difference between Judaism and Christianity is that the former want to go straight to God by adhering to the law while the latter goes to God through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ.

  7. #382

    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    the latter goes to God through faith in his Son, Jesus Christ.
    Hebrews 4:14 "Therefore having a great high priest having passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God [...]"

  8. #383
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Christians are are obligated to believe... something... hard to get anyone to define exactly what it is. In any case, it's quite different from the parent religion.
    The *belief* concept at the heart of Christianity is very easy to understand and practise than observing the law and sacrificing animals. Don't know how you can make the claim that it is hard for anyone to define? Look at it this way: a man finds a woman, loves her and *believe* that she will make him happy and goes on to marry her.

    It is the same way that an unbeliever finds Christ, love him in the belief that he will find eternal life in Him, and thus, become Christian. How is it difficult to understand?

    There's no concept of "eternal atonement" in Judaism. Life is a test, every day one faces challenges and either they succeed or they fail. When we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and strive again. It's what gives human existence meaning.
    Have you watched the Hollywood submarine movie called "Crimson Tide" with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington? In the movie, the US ship believed they were being shadowed by a Russian sub - both vessels are had nukes. While the vessels were doing this cat-and-mouse routine underwater, suddenly an urgent incoming transmission from the Pentagon was interrupted because of a fault with the ships communication equipment.

    From the incomplete messaged so far removed, the captain Gene Hackman, speculated it was an order from Naval Command to engage the Russian ship. But his Second-in-Command (2-I-C), Denzel urged caution and pleaded with his captain to wait until the onboard engineers could fix the problem so they could receive the complete transmission. But the captain was having none of it. He argued that by the time the complete message comes through, the Russians would have blown them down to the seabed.

    Denzel countered that if they launch a premature nuke attack on a Russian vessel, the ramifications would be unimaginable. There was consequently a mutiny onboard the ship. The sailors took sides, with some in support of the captain and others, his 2-I-C. The opposing sailors fought each other and took turns in detaining the captain and his 2-I-C. But after a while, the engineers fixed the equipment and the complete message came through -- and guess what? The message was to remind them that the Russians were conducting a routine training exercise in the area and they (the US ship) was advised to avoid that body of water. Now, imagine the catastrophe if the captain had launched a nuke attack on the Russians?

    Now, the relevance of this analogy is akin to the OT and NTs. God's eschatological plans were intentionally made incomplete in the OT, just like the bridged message the ship received before their equipment malfunctioned. Judaism is like that captain, trying to figure out eschatology but without the complete information. But God has provided the complete data in the NT which they willfully rejected.

    So when you say that Judaism doesn't believe in *eternal atonement* it is sadly untrue, but the complete Bible (OT & NT) says differently.

  9. #384
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The *belief* concept at the heart of Christianity is very easy to understand and practise
    It's never really been explained satisfactorily to me. But again, not relevant to my point, which I'll state yet again: Judaism is a rules based region and Christianity is a principle based religion. Based on your response here I'm assuming you'd agree with that statement.

    Have you watched the Hollywood submarine movie called "Crimson Tide" with Gene Hackman and Denzel Washington?...

    But God has provided the complete data in the NT which they willfully rejected.
    I could bring in my own analogies here, but I'm going to decline to do so because this is the open forum area. Suffice it to say that Judaism sees the bible as being complete without any new revelation, just as Christians reject "newer revelations" such as SDA and Mormons.
    So when you say that Judaism doesn't believe in *eternal atonement* it is sadly untrue, but the complete Bible (OT & NT) says differently.
    Atonement is a process.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  10. #385
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I don't understand any of this. He fulfilled messianic prophecy and therefore earned eternal redemption? Where is that in the bible, anywhere?

    Where is any of this in the bible?

    You keep using this term, "bundles", to imply that the faiths are the same. But they're not. Jews are obligated to follow laws under the tenets of their faith.This is the fundamental concept of the religion. Christians are are obligated to believe... something... hard to get anyone to define exactly what it is. In any case, it's quite different from the parent religion.

    There's no concept of "eternal atonement" in Judaism. Life is a test, every day one faces challenges and either they succeed or they fail. When we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and strive again. It's what gives human existence meaning.

    Again, I don't know what this means. What we "want" is not relevant. God told us what He expects. Either we follow His wishes or we don't. That's it.

    Take it up with your fellow Christians who teach otherwise...
    You were the one who was saying otherwise, and I was correcting this. Yes, some Christians describe this in a way that appears to confuse you. You seem to think Christianity is without works and without law. I gave you a single verse that proved otherwise. Faith without works is dead, according to James. To have works you have to have law.

    I called this law the "Law of Christ." When you wanted to know what the rules were, I explained to you that they were the same rules as exists in ancient Judaism, minus the elements that we view as "shadows of Christ."

    These shadows would now be redundant if we practiced these observances when we believe Christ already accomplished what makes them redundant. For example, if Jesus already provided forgiveness for our sins, past, present, and future, it would be redundant to offer a sin offering for something that has already been provided for by Jesus.

    But you don't understand, and that's okay. I took it up with you because you didn't seem to understand. And obviously you still don't. That's okay.

  11. #386
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It's never really been explained satisfactorily to me. But again, not relevant to my point, which I'll state yet again: Judaism is a rules based region and Christianity is a principle based religion. Based on your response here I'm assuming you'd agree with that statement.
    Of course, I agree. I never disputed that.

    I could bring in my own analogies here, but I'm going to decline to do so because this is the open forum area. Suffice it to say that Judaism sees the bible as being complete without any new revelation, just as Christians reject "newer revelations" such as SDA and Mormons.
    The Bible didn't complete in the OT. God told ancient Israel that time will come they will no longer hear from him. Do you know when God's silence started and when it ended? The answer will help you understand that God didn't stop speaking to Israel in the OT.

    Amos 8:11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord God, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the Lord:

  12. #387
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    The Bible didn't complete in the OT. God told ancient Israel that time will come they will no longer hear from him. Do you know when God's silence started and when it ended? The answer will help you understand that God didn't stop speaking to Israel in the OT.
    Again, not addressing what I said. We see the bible as complete. Do you need the Book of Mormon? Of course not. You also see your bible as complete.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  13. #388
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    It's never really been explained satisfactorily to me. But again, not relevant to my point, which I'll state yet again: Judaism is a rules based region and Christianity is a principle based religion. Based on your response here I'm assuming you'd agree with that statement.
    An interesting statement.
    Firstly is Christianity principle based? What is a principle? Surely it is a rule for living - therefore this would make Christianity rules based, like Judaism.

    Secondly is Judaism truly rules based? It certainly has rules, but what is the BASIS of Judaism? This was what the prophets continually showed those in power was wrong - they relied on rules, when the BASIS is God. The start may be seen correctly with Abraham for Judaism - we can say Noah was for the whole world.
    Yet what was the situation between God and Abraham? Was is one of Abraham following rules or living by faith in a relationship with God?
    I argue that because Abraham had faith in God, so Abraham obeyed God, and this obedience was then credited as righteousness.
    The obedience though didn't come first, but the relationship. From the relationship came acts of faith which are the good works God has given.

    This, IMO makes Judaism actually a relationship based religion. Again note what is stated in Deuteronomy 6:4 - 6
    “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. And these words that I command you today shall be on your heart...
    Notice the start is hearing, and knowing who God is, and from this it is understanding and loving God, and from this the words of God are on your heart, and from this you then keep the commands.

    Interestingly, this is actually the same in Christianity. The key aspect is having a relationship with God. This is achieved in the SAME way as in Judaism, yet we understand that the Messiah has come and so He leads us into a relationship with the Father. Further He confirmed through His own death that we are to die with Him. Die to sin and so live with Him in Life of the Spirit.

  14. #389
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    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I don't understand any of this. He fulfilled messianic prophecy and therefore earned eternal redemption? Where is that in the bible, anywhere?

    Where is any of this in the bible?

    You keep using this term, "bundles", to imply that the faiths are the same. But they're not. Jews are obligated to follow laws under the tenets of their faith.This is the fundamental concept of the religion. Christians are are obligated to believe... something... hard to get anyone to define exactly what it is. In any case, it's quite different from the parent religion.

    There's no concept of "eternal atonement" in Judaism. Life is a test, every day one faces challenges and either they succeed or they fail. When we fall short, we ask for forgiveness and strive again. It's what gives human existence meaning.

    Again, I don't know what this means. What we "want" is not relevant. God told us what He expects. Either we follow His wishes or we don't. That's it.

    Take it up with your fellow Christians who teach otherwise...
    Christianity is not necessarily a principles based religion, it is relationship based. An easier way to describe faith/belief is to RELY on Jesus.

    Just as Israel relied on the Passover lamb, to be saved from death, so in a more personal way we rely on Jesus, our Passover lamb. Yet it's not just death passing by, Jesus' sacrifice places us in an eternal status of atonement. Without the need for daily or annual atonement. Sure this wasn't the expectation of Israel, Jesus fulfilled only some of the Messianic expectations and not all. The Essenes saw this duality in the coming Messiah. So it was recogniseable to some from OT scripture.

  15. #390

    Re: "standing in the Holy Place?"

    the Antichrist will in effect declare himself to be God, though not in a physical temple
    I think this is the correct interpretation.

    Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
    2Thes. 2:3-4

    It's common knowledge that God doesn't dwell in a temple made by hands, but on earth within people. It's possible this deception is only perceived by people as sitting in Gods temple.

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