View Poll Results: Are these the same angel?

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Thread: Are these the same (angel)?

  1. #1
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    Are these the same (angel)?

    Revelation has 2 passages with an angel who holds the key (only one key?) to the bottomless pit.
    *[[Rev 9:1]] KJV* And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    *[[Rev 20:1]] KJV* And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

    Are these the same angel?

    Here are 3 reasons why I ask.
    1. Was he cast out of heaven?
    2. Why, if he is the same, was he allowed to return? A wicked angel?
    3. Where is his judgment, [like unto Satan's] if he is a wicked angel?

    I, principally, see them as different, because he is said to have "fell" from heaven.

    G4098
    Original: πίπτω πέτω

    Transliteration: piptō petō

    Phonetic: pip'-to

    Thayer Definition:

    to descend from a higher place to a lower
    to fall (either from or upon)
    to be thrust down
    metaphorically to fall under judgment, came under condemnation
    to descend from an erect to a prostrate position
    to fall down
    to be prostrated, fall prostrate
    of those overcome by terror or astonishment or grief or under the attack of an evil spirit or of falling dead suddenly
    the dismemberment of a corpse by decay
    to prostrate one's self
    used of suppliants and persons rendering homage or worship to one
    to fall out, fall from, i.e. shall perish or be lost
    to fall down, fall into ruin: of buildings, walls etc.
    to be cast down from a state of prosperity
    to fall from a state of uprightness
    to perish, i.e come to an end, disappear, cease
    of virtues
    to lose authority, no longer have force
    of sayings, precepts, etc.
    to be removed from power by death
    to fail of participating in, miss a share in
    Origin: a reduplicated and contracted form of peto pet'-o, (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses), probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting

    TDNT entry: 08:41,8

    Part(s) of speech: Verb

    Strong's Definition: The first is a reduplicated and contracted form of the second (which occurs only as an alternate in certain tenses); probably akin to G4072 through the idea of alighting ; to fall (literally of figuratively): - fail, fall (down), light on.

    <<PrevTopNext>>

    The implication is that he was removed from heaven, and thus he is a wicked angel. I don't foresee that Satan and his wicked angels, once kicked out, from being allowed reentry into heaven. The Rev 20 scene is of this angel coming DOWN from heaven [to the earth] to bind Satan with a great chain in the bottomless pit. Satan, is somewhere at this time, someplace other than heaven.

    Here is what I am leaning towards in my thinking. If the implied meaning of "fell" means that it was an involuntary removal, this would imply that he didn't hit the ground standing up. In other words, he had to get up from the ground. Now look at these two verses together:

    *[[Rev 9:1]] KJV* And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

    [He fell (from heaven) unto the earth.]

    *[[Rev 13:11]] KJV* And I beheld another beast coming up OUT OF THE EARTH; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

    the meaning of "coming up"
    G305

    Original:*ἀναβαίνω

    Transliteration:*anabainō

    Phonetic:*an-ab-ah'-ee-no

    Thayer Definition:

    ascendto go upto rise, mount, be borne up, spring up

    Origin: from*G303*and the base of*G939

    TDNT entry: 09:39,9

    Part(s) of speech: Verb

    Strong's Definition: From*G303*and the base of*G939; to*go up*(literally or figuratively): - arise, ascend (up), climb (go, grow, rise, spring) up, come (up).

    <<PrevTopNext>>




    If this angel, "is cast down to the earth", then it logically follows that he must get up out of the earth. I think that the beast from the earth, the false prophet, is the star that fell from heaven. What do you think about the angel(s?) that had the key to the bottomless pit?

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Last edited by Pesachpup; Jun 13th 2018 at 06:29 PM. Reason: Added definition G305

  2. #2

    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Here's one of my thoughts (I've stated before). I believe Rev9:1 and Rev12:9 ("he [Satan] was cast out unto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him," along with v.12's "woe to the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time") are occurring at the same time, that is, at the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe ['unto the earth']/mid-trib (or just a hair before mid-trib/GREAT-trib commences, with 1260 days remaining).

    I generally agree with your "fall/pipto" idea (that it's not the same as the "coming down" out of heaven), so yes (and I've said this before), in a negative sense (i.e. bad angel). I also believe this is part of their "judgment" (and I've pointed out 1Cor6:3[14 (having a Grk word [re: US/the Church] used only 1 other time [re: PURPOSE])] and how "we" ["the Church which is His body"] participate in that).


    I'm not sure about your other point. I'll ponder that. I do think that the mid-point is when they have some sort of additional empowerment, or what have you (per Rev13:5,7,2,12,13-14,15,16), that wasn't to that level during the first half of the trib (though I believe the "man of sin be revealed" occurs at the BEGINNING of the 7 years [Dan9:27a/26], after "The Departure/Rapture" of "the Church which is His body" [2Th2:6,7-8a,3--same sequence as in 1Th4-5 (The Departure/Rapture AND THEN the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]/FIRST SEAL/START of the judgments/DOTL time period])]).

  3. #3
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    Here's one of my thoughts (I've stated before). I believe Rev9:1 and Rev12:9 ("he [Satan] was cast out unto the earth, and his angels were cast out with him," along with v.12's "woe to the earth and the sea! for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knoweth he hath but a short time") are occurring at the same time, that is, at the 5th Trumpet/1st Woe ['unto the earth']/mid-trib (or just a hair before mid-trib/GREAT-trib commences, with 1260 days remaining).

    I generally agree with your "fall/pipto" idea (that it's not the same as the "coming down" out of heaven), so yes (and I've said this before), in a negative sense (i.e. bad angel). I also believe this is part of their "judgment" (and I've pointed out 1Cor6:3[14 (having a Grk word [re: US/the Church] used only 1 other time [re: PURPOSE])] and how "we" ["the Church which is His body"] participate in that).


    I'm not sure about your other point. I'll ponder that. I do think that the mid-point is when they have some sort of additional empowerment, or what have you (per Rev13:5,7,2,12,13-14,15,16), that wasn't to that level during the first half of the trib (though I believe the "man of sin be revealed" occurs at the BEGINNING of the 7 years [Dan9:27a/26], after "The Departure/Rapture" of "the Church which is His body" [2Th2:6,7-8a,3--same sequence as in 1Th4-5 (The Departure/Rapture AND THEN the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]/FIRST SEAL/START of the judgments/DOTL time period])]).
    Being a different angel, means that Rev 9 is a "bad" angel. But why not a specific judgment since he is named separately, especially when the 5 months were over?

    If he is just one of Satan's minions, with no special position, his "judgment" would be part of all of those angels who were cast out. Seeing that they (Satan's minions) are not mentioned when Satan is bound would make sense as to no specific mention.

    But let correct some of my misleading language. I don't believe that Satan bound in the bottomless pit is his "judgment". Why? That is only a temporal place, just like death and hell are only temporary abodes of the wicked until "judgment" day when the lake of fire will be their ETERNAL abode. Ask judgment has been given to Jesus. The righteous receive their judgment unto eternal life at his return. The wicked receive their "judgment" 1000 years later. [So, I used "judgment" kind of loosely]. But when Peter and Jude speak of the judgment of the angels that sinned, it is referred to as the judgment of the great day of God. I think this means that the angels that are in chains of darkness, will stay there until the time of the GWTJ. The lake of fire is the judgment that is reserved for the wicked. So, I don't believe that any wicked angels are released from their prison until the GWTJ.
    The beast and FP are cast into the lake of fire [eternal judgment] because they are already in possession of eternal bodies. So, I am probing the question of where did the FP get his immortal body(?). If the FP is originally a flesh and blood person, when did he get his eternal body? If not formerly a person, then he has an eternal "angelic" body when he appears as the beast from the earth. To me, there is no question as to the false prophet having an eternal body. BECAUSE, he is cast ALIVE into the lake of fire. Only creatures (people & angels) having an eternal body is what keeps them from being consumed by the flames from the lake of fire. So again I ask, how and where did the false prophet get his eternal body?

    Blessings
    The PuP

  4. #4

    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    So again I ask, how and where did the false prophet get his eternal body?
    Ah, yes, now I see what you are getting at, in this post.

    Well, consider this (what I've also said in past posts):

    --when it comes to the "still-living/mortals" ("the righteous" only) who will enter the MK time period (upon His "return" to the earth/Rev19), who will be the only ones still capable of reproducing/bearing children, I believe John 11:26 [that is, part B of what Jesus is saying in 25-26] is saying "AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE" refers to these who will be "still-living/mortals" at the time of His "return" (to the earth)... per passages like Matt25:31-34,46[comp.46a* w/2Pet2:9], Matt13:30,39,40,49-50, Matt22:9-14nasb, Matt25:1-13,10nasb, Luk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 and all the parallels of these... I believe this means that, though they are mortals capable of reproducing, yet they "SHALL NEVER DIE" (because The One WHO IS "I AM the LIFE" is present there, and exerting His authority)... [consider along with this, the verses showing a CONTRAST: Matt18:8,9; Mk9:43-48]

    --the others (the "ye cursed") are said to "go away into everlasting punishment"* (by that same power He is wielding--His "judgment," which I believe BEGINS at the first SEAL [unfolding upon the earth], continues at His "return" to the earth, and throughout the earthly MK, etc...). Per Acts 17:31nasb: "because He has FIXED [SET/ESTABLISHED] A DAY *IN WHICH* He will judge the world in righteousness, by/in a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him out-from the dead" (again, see the 1Cor6:3[14] verses, which I believe shows us "PURPOSE")... [consider Jn12:48 along with this]


    [the *IN WHICH* being an extended time period, just as in 2Pet3:10-12/Isa34-35 (not just one verse 34:4)]


    EDIT: correcting various misspellings... my eyesight is getting really crummy


    Adding this: I see Rev19:19/16:14-16 to be parallel with Isa24:21-23, where it says:

    "21 And it shall come to pass in that day [His 2nd Coming to the earth is also a PART of the totality of the "in that day" time period], that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth. [comp. Rev19:19/16:14-16]
    22 And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited/punished." [GWTj]

  5. #5
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    The two angels are different......see the highligted pretty much sums it up. Now the question I have....is the angel with the key the same as the king of the pit?


    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

  6. #6
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The two angels are different......see the highligted pretty much sums it up. Now the question I have....is the angel with the key the same as the king of the pit?


    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?
    I believe they are different angels. It speaks of the king of the pit as being, "THE" angel OF the pit. That tells me that the pit has been his home. I find it very interesting that there are two characters with direct ties to the bottomless pit, and there are two characters that are cast alive into the lake fire, when Jesus returns; [beast and FP]; and both of them are called beasts. I view the pit as one of three compartments reserved for the wicked dead, with death and hell being the first two. The fact that the false prophet, aka the beast from the earth, has an immortal body to be cast into the lake of fire, points me to conclude that either the angel with the key (in Rev. 9), or the "king" of the pit is the one who becomes the false prophet. I am not adamant about that view, but i do find out interesting that Abaddon IS a king, and a beast symbolically represents a king. "The BEAST from the earth"!

    Blessings
    The PuP

  7. #7
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Either it's the same angel, or at least angels that serve God. God isn't going to give the key to a special prison to an evil angel. That doesn't make any sense. The angel of the bottomless pit is a different angel than the angel that opened the pit.

    Something similar happens here:

    Rev 9:13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
    Rev 9:14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
    Rev 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.


    Good angel releases evil forces just like a good angel opening the pit to release all the evil out of it.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  8. #8
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    God isn't going to give the key to a special prison to an evil angel. That doesn't make any sense.
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    Scripture clearly says Lucifer opens the house of his prisoners.....

    19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
    20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

  9. #9
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
    13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
    14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
    15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
    16 They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, and consider thee, saying, Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;
    17 That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    Scripture clearly says Lucifer opens the house of his prisoners.....
    Don't you see the word "not" there?

    (CEV) Did he capture every city and make earth a desert? Is he the one who refused to let prisoners go home?"
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  10. #10
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Don't you see the word "not" there?

    (CEV) Did he capture every city and make earth a desert? Is he the one who refused to let prisoners go home?"
    Really........ I would not use the CEV version for support, please (prisoners go home? What?). I guess this is why most dont and cant understand the KJV.

    "that opened not the house of his prisoners?"

    The text is atually saying that he did open the house.

    Like saying "did you not reply to my post????"

  11. #11
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Really........ I would not use the CEV version for support, please (prisoners go home? What?). I guess this is why most dont and cant understand the KJV.

    "that opened not the house of his prisoners?"

    The text is atually saying that he did open the house.

    Like saying "did you not reply to my post????"
    Don't try to discredit the CEV to hide your own misunderstandings. All translations show that you are wrong. Do you not know what the word "not" means??

    Isaiah 14:17

    (ABP+) the oneG3588 makingG5087 theG3588 inhabitable worldG3611 desolate,G2048 andG2532 G3588 [2its citiesG4172 G1473 1demolished];G2507 the onesG3588 inG1722 enslavementG520.1 he did not loose.G3756 G3089

    (ASV) that made the world as a wilderness, and overthrew the cities thereof; that let not loose his prisoners to their home?

    (BBE) Who made the world a waste, overturning its towns; who did not let his prisoners loose from the prison-house.

    (Brenton) that made the whole world desolate, and destroyed its cities; he loosed not those who were in captivity.

    (CEV) Did he capture every city and make earth a desert? Is he the one who refused to let prisoners go home?"

    (Darby) that made the world as a wilderness, and overthrew the cities thereof; that dismissed not his prisoners homewards?

    (DRB) That made the world a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof, that opened not the prison to his prisoners?

    (ESV) who made the world like a desert and overthrew its cities, who did not let his prisoners go home?'

    (GNB) Is this the man who destroyed cities and turned the world into a desert? Is this the man who never freed his prisoners or let them go home?"

    (GW) who made the world like a desert and tore down its cities, who didn't let his prisoners go home?"

    (ISV) who made the world like a desert, who destroyed its cities, who would not open the jails for his prisoners?'

    (JPS) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?'

    (KJV) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed the cities thereof; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    (KJV+) That madeH7760 the worldH8398 as a wilderness,H4057 and destroyedH2040 the citiesH5892 thereof; that openedH6605 notH3808 the houseH1004 of his prisoners?H615

    (LITV) making the world like a wilderness, and who tore down its cities; he did not open a house for his prisoners?

    (MKJV) who made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities; who did not open the house for his prisoners?

    (RV) that made the world as a wilderness, and overthrew the cities thereof; that let not loose his prisoners to their home?

    (TLV) who made the world a wilderness and destroyed its cities, who never opened the house of his prisoners?”

    (WEBA) who made the world like a wilderness, and overthrew its cities; who didn’t release his prisoners to their home?”

    (Webster) That made the world as a wilderness, and destroyed its cities; that opened not the house of his prisoners?

    (YLT) He hath made the world as a wilderness, And his cities he hath broken down, Of his bound ones he opened not the house.

    You sir are no teacher and do NOT understand this scripture.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #12
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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    All translations show that you are wrong. Do you not know what the word "not" means??
    Why would he not want to open the house of his prisoners??? Did he have a chance and refuse?

    So he destroys the whole world but does not open the pit to free his captives????? ummmmm

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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    Why would he not want to open the house of his prisoners??? Did he have a chance and refuse?
    Lucifer is evil and had no compassion on his prisoners. Do you admit you were wrong about him opening the prisons and letting them out? I think I made it clear that your original interpretation was wrong. I don't glory in anyone's mistakes but I do wish to glory in new and proper understandings.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    [QUOTE]
    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Lucifer is evil and had no compassion on his prisoners.
    Where do you come up with this? The prisoners are his followers.

    Do you admit you were wrong about him opening the prisons and letting them out?
    Absolutely not!

    I think I made it clear that your original interpretation was wrong. I don't glory in anyone's mistakes but I do wish to glory in new and proper understandings.
    You are limited to what the eyes can see......

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    Re: Are these the same (angel)?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post

    Absolutely not!
    I'm not surprised.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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