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Thread: Please explain the Rapture to me

  1. #16
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Thank you for your explanation.


    So then, if the living saints are described as leaving a body behind... the dead saints that rose before them.... probably didn't have bodies either. Most Christians in my experience attribute the glorified body as coming either in the air/sky, or in heaven, after the full scale destruction of the world (not destruction of earth). Major distinction needs to be made between the Kosmos (World of human activity) and Earth (the literal planet).

    John's vision of the "new" planet earth in Revelation is viewed incorrectly as being a new literal planet. Rather, it is a visual representation of the Kosmos that God so often describes through the prophets using descriptions of crops, dry land, cities, clay, soil, pests, storms.... etc....
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  2. #17
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    For those who believe in it, anyway.
    The correct answer (and the one more fitting with the aesthetic of ETC), is that the rapture is when people wonder if Thanos snapped his fingers.

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I don't think we Christians can explain it either. Just consider the Pretrib Rapture Christians, who make movies and write books, depicting Christians disappearing into thin air, leaving planes unattended, crashing into the sea! This event obviously needs more explaining, though I'm not sure we have enough information to do this?
    Yeah. Same.

    FYI, Pretribulationism has the Rapture event taking place *at any time,* whereas Postribulationists, like myself, view the Rapture as taking place at the conclusion of the final war in this age.
    Well, the messiah can come at any moment, if we merit him. So we believe. But there is also an end date by which if we haven't earned it, God sends him anyway "For the sake of His name".
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    For those who believe in it, anyway.
    You probably know, the word « rapture » does not exist in the N.T.. Most don't see it this way, but I'm going to say it anyway.

    In the period of acts the promise made to Abraham was being for fulfilled, namely that of Gen. 26:4 « And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed ». This is the heavenly line next to Gen. 13:15, 16, which is Israel, the earthy line.

    When the Kingdom of Heaven was preached and the Jews did not receive it and crossed their King, Paul was preaching justification by faith, he was grafting gentile believers on the olive tree (Israel). In the letters to this group (Rom., 1 and 2 Cor., 1 and 2 Thess. and 1 Timothy Paul works this out. In these letters he reveals the secret of the taking up: 1 Cor. 15:52 « In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed ».

    This is all before 70 AD when Israel once again became Lo-Ammi, you and I know that Gods promises are permanent as Isa. 14:1 states: « For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob ».

    What one calls the rapture, will be at the end of this olam (aion) and will be a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Of course this is very brief.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    What one calls the rapture, will be at the end of this olam (aion) and will be a mixture of Jews and Gentiles. Of course this is very brief.
    Ah. thank you. .......
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  6. #21
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Yeah. Same.



    Well, the messiah can come at any moment, if we merit him. So we believe. But there is also an end date by which if we haven't earned it, God sends him anyway "For the sake of His name".
    And how will you know a particular person is the Messiah?
    "He's wild, you know. Not like a tame lion."
    C.S. Lewis, "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe."

    "Oh, but sometimes the sun stays hidden for years"
    "Sometimes the sky rains night after night, When will it clear?"

    "But our Hope endures the worst of conditions"
    "It's more than our optimism, Let the earth quake"
    "Our Hope is unchanged"
    "Our Hope Endures" Natalie Grant

  7. #22
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Old man View Post
    And how will you know a particular person is the Messiah?
    They will fulfill the messianic prophecies

    The condensed version is Ezekiel 37 for what will happen, and Isaiah 11 for the personality.

    Ezekiel 37:

    Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.'


    Jewish exiles gathered, no more idolatry, scrupulous observance of the law, no further exiles, a king from the line of David (the messiah), a rebuilt sanctuary (temple), and the nations will be aware of all this.

    Isaiah 11:

    1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the basilisk's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; together shall they spoil the children of the east; they shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, and will smite it into seven streams, and cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, like as there was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

    World peace, universal knowledge of God, Jewish exiles gathered, etc.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  8. #23
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    They will fulfill the messianic prophecies

    The condensed version is Ezekiel 37 for what will happen, and Isaiah 11 for the personality.

    Ezekiel 37:

    Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all; neither shall they defile themselves any more with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will save them out of all their dwelling-places, wherein they have sinned, and will cleanse them; so shall they be My people, and I will be their God. And My servant David shall be king over them, and they all shall have one shepherd; they shall also walk in Mine ordinances, and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob My servant, wherein your fathers dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, they, and their children, and their children's children, for ever; and David My servant shall be their prince for ever. Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them--it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; and I will establish them, and multiply them, and will set My sanctuary in the midst of them for ever. My dwelling-place also shall be over them; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. And the nations shall know that I am the LORD that sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for ever.'


    Jewish exiles gathered, no more idolatry, scrupulous observance of the law, no further exiles, a king from the line of David (the messiah), a rebuilt sanctuary (temple), and the nations will be aware of all this.

    Isaiah 11:

    1 And there shall come forth a shoot out of the stock of Jesse, and a twig shall grow forth out of his roots. And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD. And his delight shall be in the fear of the LORD; and he shall not judge after the sight of his eyes, neither decide after the hearing of his ears; But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and decide with equity for the meek of the land; and he shall smite the land with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked. And righteousness shall be the girdle of his loins, and faithfulness the girdle of his reins. And the wolf shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them. And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together; and the lion shall eat straw like the ox. And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the basilisk's den. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain; for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the root of Jesse, that standeth for an ensign of the peoples, unto him shall the nations seek; and his resting-place shall be glorious. And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord will set His hand again the second time to recover the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea. And He will set up an ensign for the nations, and will assemble the dispersed of Israel, and gather together the scattered of Judah from the four corners of the earth. The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and they that harass Judah shall be cut off; Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. And they shall fly down upon the shoulder of the Philistines on the west; together shall they spoil the children of the east; they shall put forth their hand upon Edom and Moab; and the children of Ammon shall obey them. And the LORD will utterly destroy the tongue of the Egyptian sea; and with His scorching wind will He shake His hand over the River, and will smite it into seven streams, and cause men to march over dry-shod. And there shall be a highway for the remnant of His people, that shall remain from Assyria, like as there was for Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

    World peace, universal knowledge of God, Jewish exiles gathered, etc.
    Like this..

    ALL of these prophesies were made hundreds, some thousands, of years before Jesus Christ was born. Looking in the face of how He literally fulfilled them all (plus hundreds more), it is an impossibility that He is not Messiah, Saviour of the world. The ONLY person... past, present or future... who could fulfill all these prophecies is Jesus Christ. See His genealogy starting from faithful Abraham.

    http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Misce...prophecies.htm


    Jude
    The Church right now has more fashion than passion, is more pathetic than prophetic, is more superficial than supernatural.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill


  9. #24
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    For those who believe in it, anyway.
    The rapture of the saints is simply the logical explanation for how a saint will transition to receive the eternal land inheritance in the messianic kingdom. Abraham was promised a eternal inheritance along with his seed which they never received during their lifetime. Thus the resurrection of the dead is a requirement by God to fulfill the promises to the Patriarchs. The rapture is how those that are “alive and remain” transition in order to be able to receive a eternal inheritance when this event happens. One cannot receive anything eternal unless they are themselves immortal.


    In 1 Corinthians 15, Paul spoke of the rapture and the resurrection of the dead and then tied it to the time period of Isaiah 25.


    1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."


    Notice that Paul says “WHEN this corruptible has put on incorruption... THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.”


    The last part of the verse, Paul is quoting Isa 25:8 saying that this event will coincide at this time.


    Isa 25:3 Therefore the strong people will glorify You; The city of the terrible nations will fear You.4 For You have been a strength to the poor, A strength to the needy in his distress, A refuge from the storm, A shade from the heat; For the blast of the terrible ones is as a storm against the wall.5 You will reduce the noise of aliens, As heat in a dry place; As heat in the shadow of a cloud, The song of the terrible ones will be diminished.And in this mountain The LORD of hosts will make for all people A feast of choice pieces, A feast of wines on the lees, Of fat things full of marrow, Of well-refined wines on the lees. 7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.8 He will swallow up death forever, And the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from all faces; The rebuke of His people He will take away from all the earth; For the LORD has spoken.9 And it will be said in that day: "Behold, this is our God; We have waited for Him, and He will save us. This is the LORD; We have waited for Him; We will be glad and rejoice in His salvation."


    Notice that the context is that the wicked nations have been persecuting the Jewish saints and God has brought deliverance (25:3-5). The final restoration of the saints to the land and the keeping of the feasts is connected when God “swallows up death forever” (25:6-8). This can only happen if the saints are now made immortal. Yet verse 9 tells us that there is a group that has been “waiting on the Lord for deliverance” at the time He comes to save them. The same group that had been waiting for deliverance is the same group that experienced the persecution of the nations at that time. This seems to indicate that there are alive saints that transition into the kingdom age while also experiencing the blessing of “death being swallowed up forever”. This REQUIRES that they be transformed into incorruption to receive the eternal inheritance along with the Patriarchs.


    Paul, knowing the prophecy of the “Son of man coming on the clouds” (Dan 7) and the fact that Zechariah prophesied that the Messiah “would come, and ALL THE SAINTS WITH HIM” (Zec 14:5) required that the saints be “caught up together with Him” at the time of kingdom age. Being “taken up” would be in a similar fashion to how Elisha was taken up into the clouds but this time for the purpose of restoring Jerusalem, the nations and reigning over the earth.

  10. #25
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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Jude View Post
    Like this..
    You didn't address a single thing I said or speak about a single verse I posted.

    Thank you for your time.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    The rapture of the saints is simply the logical explanation for how a saint will transition to receive the eternal land inheritance in the messianic kingdom.
    Ah. Interesting. I gather from the verses you posted that you ascribe to this belief. Would I be correct?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Ah. Interesting. I gather from the verses you posted that you ascribe to this belief. Would I be correct?
    Yes, I believe the rapture and the resurrection of the dead happen together at the transition to the “world to come”. This is different than the popular pretribulation doctrine. My view is called Historic Premillennialism ( or chiliasm)and I believe It to be the same eschatology as the earliest church fathers as well as being consistent with much of the Jewish hope and expectations were regarding the kingdom age and the earthly kingdom.

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Yes, I believe the rapture and the resurrection of the dead happen together at the transition to the “world to come”.
    So I see that this includes the concept of the world lasting 6000 years? This is a concept in Judaism also.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    So I see that this includes the concept of the world lasting 6000 years? This is a concept in Judaism also.
    Correct, the early chiliast believed that the sabbatical cycle were a prophetic timeline of this age. The earth would continue under the curse for 6,000 years (or 6 days) and would be liberated in the 7th day. The book of jubilees and other Jewish sources alluded to this as well. The early fathers believed this idea though from their readings of the some of the Old Testament prophecies along with Johns prophecy in Rev 20.

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    Re: Please explain the Rapture to me

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    So I see that this includes the concept of the world lasting 6000 years? This is a concept in Judaism also.
    It does, but it doesn't have to (though I doubt you'd see many 'old earthers' who hold to the notion of the/a rapture).

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