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Thread: Fallen Angel?

  1. #1
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    Fallen Angel?

    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.
    It is a theological enigma IMO. We know that there is evil-- Evil does not have a tail and horns. That was made up. Anything or anyone adversarial to God falls into the category of the "spirit" of anti-Christ. I have no problem with a being named Satan who was created by God the most beautiful and gifted that wanted to take his place, as long as in the realization of this happening, we are all accountable for our own downfall-- wanting to be (rather than be like) God, wanting to be in control , not unlike wanting to be on the thrown-- (at some point)
    It could take a long time to work through, name or figure out evil...enough time to distract from a real person (Jesus) and take away what He has already done.

    How much power does evil have in or over the heart?
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  3. #3
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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    I’m not raising the question whether Satan is a real and personal being. The question relates to his origin.

  4. #4

    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Do you know if the guy is ex morman? I think they believe Jesus and he are brothers.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Who are the morning stars?

    Job 37
    6 Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof;
    7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

    So Christ and Lucifer would be the morning stars.

    Rev 22
    I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

    IS 14
    How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

    Now all things were created by the "son of God". And would think Lucifer would be that "first" creation. Thus Lucifer then was like aka a "step son" of God......

    So I can see where the "brother" thing originates but definately not equals. And the "first born" Christ (not created) recieved the inherirdence of the Father and Lucifer (second born, created) was PO and thus why we had the struggle since the begining of time. Just look at the Genesis; Cain and Abel, Issac and Ismael, Jacob and Esau and the struggle for the inheriedence.


    Lucifer is a "fallen" angel as he fall from his origin "heaven" down to earth.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.
    I agree with you--he's a fallen angel.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    I’m not raising the question whether Satan is a real and personal being. The question relates to his origin.
    I understand. Basically we are looking for what ties in the serpent from the Garden to Satan from Job or The Dragon from Revelation or the King of Tyre from Ezekiel 28. Some will argue Ezekiel 28 is about the King of Tyre only while it is my understanding most? accept that the descriptions cover more than a human king, (like how could Tyre have been in Eden) but a powerful Angelic being.

    Ezekiel 28:11-19
    Moreover, the word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, raise a lamentation over the king of Tyre, and say to him, Thus says the Lord God:
    “You were the signet of perfection,full of wisdom and perfect in beauty. You were in Eden, the garden of God;every precious stone was your covering,sardius, topaz, and diamond,beryl, onyx, and jasper,sapphire,emerald, and carbuncle;and crafted in gold were your settingsand your engravings.On the day that you were createdthey were prepared. You were an anointed guardian cherub.I placed you;you were on the holy mountain of God;in the midst of the stones of fire you walked. You were blameless in your waysfrom the day you were created,till unrighteousness was found in you. In the abundance of your tradeyou were filled with violence in your midst, and you sinned;so I cast you as a profane thing from the mountain of God,and I destroyed you,O guardian cherub,from the midst of the stones of fire. Your heart was proud because of your beauty;you corrupted your wisdom for the sake of your splendor.I cast you to the ground;I exposed you before kings,to feast their eyes on you. By the multitude of your iniquities,in the unrighteousness of your tradeyou profaned your sanctuaries;so I brought fire out from your midst;it consumed you,and I turned you to ashes on the earthin the sight of all who saw you. All who know you among the peoplesare appalled at you;you have come to a dreadful endand shall be no more forever.”
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.
    These are the proofs I would refer to as well (Jude, as well). I see no reason to think that he's _not_ a (fallen) angel. Otherwise, we'd have either an instance of an entirely new creation that we don't know anything about other than that Satan is a member of it, or he's the brother of Jesus, which is both nonsensical and obviously heretical.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.
    The question is what does it mean to be scripturally "fallen"?

    To fall is not limited to being cast out of heaven, but its root lies in being degraded and removed from God's favour. So I would say that Satan and his cohorts are fallen, angels.

  10. #10
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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    Someone visited my church yesterday and later sent me an email in reference to something I said in the message. This person advised me that Satan was NOT a fallen angel. There was no alternative origin provided (to which I requested and have not received). I realize that there is not an explicit verse that says "Satan/Lucifer is a fallen angel" but there are several verses that point this direction, such as the following:

    - Ezek. 28:12-18 referred to as a "cherub," which is an angelic being (one can argue that this passage is not referring to Satan)
    - Matthew 25:41 mentions “the devil and his angels.”
    - Rev. 12:7 mentions Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon and his angels.

    Other places, such as Job, provide implicit verbiage as well.

    I really haven't had anyone challenge this position of Satan's origin (previously). So.......... what's your take? If he's not a fallen angel, what is his origin?

    For the record, I firmly believe that he is a fallen angel.
    He isn't human so he is an angelic being and that means he is an angel and since he is an enemy of God then he is "fallen" from God morally....and he will fall from heaven:

    Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

    This is known as a falling star...looks a bit light lightening. Stars are metaphors for angels and that he falls from heaven means he is a fallen angel, a star that fell from heaven.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Along with Scripture, let’s talk tradition. Now as Protestants we adhere to Sola Scriptura. That means Scripture is the final/ultimate authority in matters of faith and practice. However, that doesn’t mean tradition is meaningless.

    We are living in a “me & my Bible” time. People are detaching from churches. They are detaching from church history. This comes with a cost because a lot of wheels will need to be reinvented going down that path.

    Your view has a long long history to it in both Protestant and Roman Catholic history (I can’t speak to Eastern Orthodox perspectives). This traditional view you hold has long, deep roots. The burden is definitely on the opponent of the view.

    When running against the grain of two millennia (or close), I’m cautious about that. It’s not impossible but highly unlikely that they’re correct.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    A Cherub is not an angel.

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    I would argue that the heavenly host are all spiritual beings and that they are all angels and that cherubim are within this heavenly host.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  14. #14
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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    When did satan initially fall? Or maybe a better question...how many times did/does he fall?

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    Re: Fallen Angel?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    When did satan initially fall? Or maybe a better question...how many times did/does he fall?
    It only takes one fall to officially be "a fallen angel". That's because to be fallen doesn't just mean to sin but to oppose God in rebellion falling away from the Godly position God gave them and organizing their own army and leadership against God. That Satan is already symbolized by a serpent who is deceiving means he fell before the Genesis 2 narrative.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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