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Thread: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

  1. #511
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    They lived and died again and were buried. Now, awaiting resurrection like everyone else.
    Where does it say that?



    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    You cleverly dodged my question with "where does that leave those resurrected after Christ"? These are exactly am asking you to explain what you believe happened to them after they rose from the grave?
    I could not have been more clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    And what have the 24 elders in heaven had to do with anything? Where do they fit in this discussion?
    You're joking right? What is your deal? If no one has gone to heaven who are they? Quit stalling.

  2. #512
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    It means to stand up bodily:

    Mat 22:30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

    G386
    ἀνάστασις
    anastasis
    an-as'-tas-is
    From G450; a standing up again, that is, (literally) a resurrection from death (individual, general or by implication (its author)), or (figuratively) a (moral) recovery (of spiritual truth): - raised to life again, resurrection, rise from the dead, that should rise, rising again.

    It can be standing up in an old body brought back to life, or a new body given life. We are used to the stories of the dead being brought back in the same body but there hasn't been the other resuur4ection yet...a spirit/soul receiving the new glorified immortal body. That has never happened yet so our perception of a resurrection is biased.
    Sometimes I wonder what you are disagreeing about? I said that at the resurrection the dead will rise up to heaven, but you disagreed in post #497. Yet you said here that it means "to stand up bodily". My point is, to stand up bodily and rising up to heaven are the same.

  3. #513
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    You made a claim, now prove it or remain silent on the matter.
    I knew your claim was false because no such text exists. Turning the question around on me is classic dodge tactic. But let's move on and not sweat over it.

    A body.
    Now, we are getting somewhere. If your statement in post #497 is to be believed, the *body* doesn't go to heaven. Is that correct?

    Only the unsaved are there. The saved are in paradise which is heaven.
    Please clarify the following:
    1. When you say the "saved" are in heaven, I suppose you mean their spirits, right?
    2. And when you say the wicked are in Hades, are you referring to their spirit or their bodies?


    Christ said there was a great division so you speak falsely.

    Luk 16:26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
    You misunderstood the timeline that Jesus spoke of. Since the wicked have not been judged and cast into the lake of fire, it is safe to assume that Jesus was speaking of situations after the GWTJ. But the discussion on the table is where wicked and the saved are right now before the resurrection and judgment?

    I don;'t know about Daniel. I know that John was bodily there to see the visions.
    Can you give me a scripture or two to prove it?

    Because I SAW the angel.
    I'm not doubting that you saw an angel. I'm simply asking how you were able to identify him as one? Since you didn't see him in a vision, was he wearing white, did he have wings?

    That was a non-visual thing.
    Non-visual, you mean it was not literal, right? If yes, then you don't know what a vision is because what you saw (the angel) was a vision, yet you said you have not seen a vision before.

  4. #514
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Sometimes I wonder what you are disagreeing about? I said that at the resurrection the dead will rise up to heaven, but you disagreed in post #497. Yet you said here that it means "to stand up bodily". My point is, to stand up bodily and rising up to heaven are the same.
    No it's not the same. A body standing up means the body has life. To bodily rise up into heaven is a rapture. In that previous post you said, "

    Ascension is the process where the dead rise bodily into heaven.
    That is still false. Dead bodies do not rise into heaven. Only the spirits/souls of the dead rise into heaven. No body is included. The saved dead will not have a body until the time of the Resurrection and they get a body made in heaven waiting for that time.

    The unsaved dead receive their former bodies back and are resurrected back to mortality because they face judgment and then the LOF.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  5. #515
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No it's not the same. A body standing up means the body has life. To bodily rise up into heaven is a rapture. In that previous post you said, "



    That is still false. Dead bodies do not rise into heaven. Only the spirits/souls of the dead rise into heaven. No body is included. The saved dead will not have a body until the time of the Resurrection and they get a body made in heaven waiting for that time.

    The unsaved dead receive their former bodies back and are resurrected back to mortality because they face judgment and then the LOF.
    Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I believe we will be spirit.

    What is a spiritual body? I believe it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes. Also, to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption:

    Psalms 16:10: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." In any case I cannot see Jesus going for all eternity with those holes in His body.

    He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body.

    John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

    2 Cor. 3:17,18: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” This suggests that we will be made into the sons of God, with our make up similar. Thus, we will be spirits

    We would not even recognize Him in His glorified form. 2 Corinthians 5:16: "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." He is now in glory.

    Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits).

    Hebrews 11:3: “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

    1 Timothy 1:17: “ Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Invisible but powerful.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  6. #516
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    No it's not the same. A body standing up means the body has life. To bodily rise up into heaven is a rapture. In that previous post you said, "
    In 1 Thess 4:16, Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise first to meet Jesus in the air. This is the resurrection. The rapture is the translation of the flesh (mortal) into immortality without experiencing death.

    That is still false. Dead bodies do not rise into heaven. Only the spirits/souls of the dead rise into heaven. No body is included. The saved dead will not have a body until the time of the Resurrection and they get a body made in heaven waiting for that time.

    The unsaved dead receive their former bodies back and are resurrected back to mortality because they face judgment and then the LOF.
    If you say so.

  7. #517
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I believe we will be spirit.

    What is a spiritual body? I believe it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes. Also, to fulfill the prophecy that His body would not see corruption:

    Psalms 16:10: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." In any case I cannot see Jesus going for all eternity with those holes in His body.

    He also generated physical bodies for Himself and two angels (cherubim?) in the Plains of Mamre to talk to Abraham. He is God, He can do anything he wants. Spirits can walk through walls and doors. God does not need a body.

    John 4:24: “God is a spirit: and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.”

    2 Cor. 3:17,18: “Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.” This suggests that we will be made into the sons of God, with our make up similar. Thus, we will be spirits

    We would not even recognize Him in His glorified form. 2 Corinthians 5:16: "Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more." He is now in glory.

    Everything made in our universe was made by the unseen (spirits).

    Hebrews 11:3: “Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.”

    1 Timothy 1:17: “ Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.” Invisible but powerful.
    We will be spirits, ie have spiritual and gloried bodies after the resurrection. The two are the same. Jesus took on his spiritual body (now invisible to flesh and blood) when he ascended into heaven.

  8. #518
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Where does it say that?
    Not explicitly. But since the Bible neither said they ascended into heaven, then it is logical to assume that like Lazarus, they lived and died again and now are awaiting the resurrection of the saints.

    I could not have been more clear.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    You're joking right? What is your deal? If no one has gone to heaven who are they? Quit stalling.
    So it's your expert opinion that the 24 elders in heaven are part of those who died and are now heaven?

  9. #519
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I found lots of commentaries in a matter of minutes. Are you not capable of doing what you suggested I do? Don't ask others to do what you have not or will not do yourself.
    I'll take your remarks to mean you actually found nothing! I've never come across one who has data that will help their argument and refused to share it.

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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    In 1 Thess 4:16, Paul said that the dead in Christ shall rise first to meet Jesus in the air.
    The rapture is the translation of the flesh (mortal) into immortality without experiencing death.

    Also wrong. The translation or changing is what makes the living immortal, not the rapture. The rapture is the lifting up of those people into the atmosphere to meet Jesus.


    If you say so.
    It's from the bible not my own writings.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  11. #521
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][SIZE=2][COLOR="#0000CD"]Everyone says that we will have glorified bodies, after our resurrection. I don't agree, I believe we will be spirit.

    What is a spiritual body? I believe it is spirit. Of course, Christ ascended and came back in a physical body. I think Jesus' body might have been for recognition purposes.
    Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Looks like you are wrong.
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

  12. #522
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So it's your expert opinion that the 24 elders in heaven are part of those who died and are now heaven?
    Only man rules and reigns with Him so who else could they be? Also, I didn't say they had to have died. Again, we know of two men that did not see death. There's no reason they could not be of the 24 elders.

  13. #523
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I'll take your remarks to mean you actually found nothing! I've never come across one who has data that will help their argument and refused to share it.
    That's what we call a cop-out.

    https://biblehub.com/commentaries/matthew/27-52.htm
    No one here holds your view.

  14. #524
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by ewq1938 View Post
    Php 3:21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

    Looks like you are wrong.
    Well scripture tells us we do not yet know what we will be.

    1 John 3:2 "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is."

    I do know an explosion can do away with flesh. He tells us flesh and blood will not inherit the Kingdom of God.

    1 Cor. 15:50 "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

    We will have a presence like the Father and Jesus does, and not a wholly omnipresent spirit like the HS. The HS will be an extension of us all. We will be visible to each other and can make ourselves visible on demand.

    John 20:19 "Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you." He even then made a touchable body to show them He was real.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

  15. #525
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    Re: Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    Well scripture tells us we do not yet know what we will be.
    No, it does not say that. How many times do you want to be wrong?
    James 4:10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

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