Is Satan cast out of heaven already?

[jeffweeder]

I just remembered a verse that I believe proves without a doubt that Satan has not been cast out or barred from heaven.

Rom 16:20 And the God of peace shall bruise Satan under your feet shortly. The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you. Amen.

What is it going to take to cast him out for good ?

Why is he even allowed in there in the first place?

Now that the keys of death and accusation have been removed from him, what do satan and God have to talk about.?

[divaD]

As to this discussion about Job 1, maybe the following will help.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The key phrase is this....presence of the LORD. In the KJV that phrase is found in all of the following passages.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD. God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD., and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

1 Chronicles 16:33 Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD., because he cometh to judge the earth.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Psalms 97:5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Psalms 114:7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the LORD., at the presence of the God of Jacob;

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD., and by his fierce anger.

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD., and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD..

Jonah 1:10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.

Zephaniah 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the LORD GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the LORD;

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of his power;


Where would the presence of the Lord be meaning in all these other passages? In all these other passages are any of them meaning His presence in heaven?

As to the sons of God mentioned in Job 1, might simply be meaning men upon the earth in that context, though I realize a lot of folks likely take them to mean angels instead, where they mainly deduce that via Job 38:7. I don't dispute angels are meant in Job 38:7. But I'm not fully convinced they are meant in Job 1 as well.

[Trivalee]

What is it going to take to cast him out for good ?

Why is he even allowed in there in the first place?

Now that the keys of death and accusation have been removed from him, what do satan and God have to talk about.?

Brother, I am the wrong person to ask these questions. Try our all-knowing God for the answers. Me, I'm just trying to follow an interesting and complex topic on the table.

[Trivalee]

As to this discussion about Job 1, maybe the following will help.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

The key phrase is this....presence of the LORD. In the KJV that phrase is found in all of the following passages.

Genesis 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD. God amongst the trees of the garden.

Genesis 4:16 And Cain went out from the presence of the LORD., and dwelt in the land of Nod, on the east of Eden.

1 Chronicles 16:33 Then shall the trees of the wood sing out at the presence of the LORD., because he cometh to judge the earth.

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.
Psalms 97:5 The hills melted like wax at the presence of the LORD, at the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Psalms 114:7 Tremble, thou earth, at the presence of the LORD., at the presence of the God of Jacob;

Jeremiah 4:26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD., and by his fierce anger.

Jonah 1:3 But Jonah rose up to flee unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD., and went down to Joppa; and he found a ship going to Tarshish: so he paid the fare thereof, and went down into it, to go with them unto Tarshish from the presence of the LORD..

Jonah 1:10 Then were the men exceedingly afraid, and said unto him, Why hast thou done this? For the men knew that he fled from the presence of the LORD, because he had told them.

Zephaniah 1:7 Hold thy peace at the presence of the LORD GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the LORD;

2 Thessalonians 1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the LORD, and from the glory of his power;


Where would the presence of the Lord be meaning in all these other passages? In all these other passages are any of them meaning His presence in heaven?

As to the sons of God mentioned in Job 1, might simply be meaning men upon the earth in that context, though I realize a lot of folks likely take them to mean angels instead, where they mainly deduce that via Job 38:7. I don't dispute angels are meant in Job 38:7. But I'm not fully convinced they are meant in Job 1 as well.

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

I don't believe the sons of God here are flesh and blood. I think are angels and the presence of God contextually has to be in heaven. This debunks the examples you cited because the people referenced are humans who can only be in the presence of God in the spirit.

But Job 1:6 refers to spirit beings and it occurred in heaven.

[Deade]

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

I don't believe the sons of God here are flesh and blood. I think are angels and the presence of God contextually has to be in heaven. This debunks the examples you cited because the people referenced are humans who can only be in the presence of God in the spirit.

But Job 1:6 refers to spirit beings and it occurred in heaven.

I quite disagree, I think God was on earth attending a worship service of believers. Remember, God said where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be in the midst of them (Matt. 18:20). Seldom does God refer to the serving angels as sons.

That said, I feel Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of man in the Garden of Eden. Was he not already processing a serpent. It gives us then end result of Satan's works in Ezekiel 28. Even in Job 1, Satan said to God he had been going to and fro in the earth. Oh he rules the world system, but he does so by influencing man whom God had given dominion. The reason he rules is because mankind does not know it. Satan keeps it that way.

Someone asked what would God have to talk about with Satan. Do we think God takes accusations from Satan every day? No, of course not. He just accused God's creation of mankind saying not one could be sinless, that one accusation was it. God doesn't need Satan to conduct His business. I doubt there is any dialog so Job 1 was an exceptional occurrence.

[Pesachpup]

I quite disagree, I think God was on earth attending a worship service of believers. Remember, God said where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be in the midst of them (Matt. 18:20). Seldom does God refer to the serving angels as sons.

That said, I feel Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of man in the Garden of Eden. Was he not already processing a serpent. It gives us then end result of Satan's works in Ezekiel 28. Even in Job 1, Satan said to God he had been going to and fro in the earth. Oh he rules the world system, but he does so by influencing man whom God had given dominion. The reason he rules is because mankind does not know it. Satan keeps it that way.

Someone asked what would God have to talk about with Satan. Do we think God takes accusations from Satan every day? No, of course not. He just accused God's creation of mankind saying not one could be sinless, that one accusation was it. God doesn't need Satan to conduct His business. I doubt there is any dialog so Job 1 was an exceptional occurrence.

Scripture says that, no less than at the time of Jesus's ministry, that Jesus is the only begotten, [and that means to be born of human birth], Son of God:

*[[Joh 3:18]] KJV* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Any one referred to as a son of God prior to this time can only be of divine nature and not of human origins.

Blessings
The PuP

[Trivalee]

I quite disagree, I think God was on earth attending a worship service of believers. Remember, God said where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name, I will be in the midst of them (Matt. 18:20). Seldom does God refer to the serving angels as sons.

That said, I feel Satan was cast out of heaven before the creation of man in the Garden of Eden. Was he not already processing a serpent. It gives us then end result of Satan's works in Ezekiel 28. Even in Job 1, Satan said to God he had been going to and fro in the earth. Oh he rules the world system, but he does so by influencing man whom God had given dominion. The reason he rules is because mankind does not know it. Satan keeps it that way.

Someone asked what would God have to talk about with Satan. Do we think God takes accusations from Satan every day? No, of course not. He just accused God's creation of mankind saying not one could be sinless, that one accusation was it. God doesn't need Satan to conduct His business. I doubt there is any dialog so Job 1 was an exceptional occurrence.

Your claim that God was on earth to attend the service of believers is speculative since that is not inferred in the text. Job 1:6 says "the sons of God CAME to present themselves before God. It doesn't say God came to present himself in their midst during their service. You should pay attention to what the scriptures say, rather than building a strawman.

Since the sons of God went to God to present themselves, it is safe to assume they went to the throne of God. I will, therefore, leave you to answer whether the throne of God is on earth or heaven?

Scripture says that, no less than at the time of Jesus's ministry, that Jesus is the only begotten, [and that means to be born of human birth], Son of God:

*[[Joh 3:18]] KJV* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Any one referred to as a son of God prior to this time can only be of divine nature and not of human origins.

Blessings
The PuP

[ChangedByHim]

Your claim that God was on earth to attend the service of believers is speculative since that is not inferred in the text. Job 1:6 says "the sons of God CAME to present themselves before God. It doesn't say God came to present himself in their midst during their service. You should pay attention to what the scriptures say, rather than building a strawman.

Since the sons of God went to God to present themselves, it is safe to assume they went to the throne of God. I will, therefore, leave you to answer whether the throne of God is on earth or heaven?



I agree. Right on!

With all of your certainty on this subject, you are still left with that one daunting word: ASSUME.

[Trivalee]

With all of your certainty on this subject, you are still left with that one daunting word: ASSUME.

1. Do you believe that Satan and the sons of God literally presented themselves before God or was it symbolic?
2. Or do you like Deade, believe that God left his throne in heaven came down to earth to join Satan and men in the flesh?

[Trivalee]

Scripture says that, no less than at the time of Jesus's ministry, that Jesus is the only begotten, [and that means to be born of human birth], Son of God:

*[[Joh 3:18]] KJV* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Any one referred to as a son of God prior to this time can only be of divine nature and not of human origins.

Blessings
The PuP

I agree. Right on!

[ChangedByHim]

1. Do you believe that Satan and the sons of God literally presented themselves before God or was it symbolic?
2. Or do you like Deade, believe that God left his throne in heaven came down to earth to join Satan and men in the flesh?

I'm not subscribing to Deade's theory. I'm just pointing out that all you have done is try to make a case that your assumption is better than someone else's. As I have stated, Satan will do whatever God commands him to do. In Job, he was summoned before God for the purpose of testing Job. I do not believe, nor is it anywhere in the text, that Satan has full access to come and go in heaven. The real question as to location is not in Job 1-2, but in Revelation 12. I do not believe that Satan is before God's throne day and night. God hears Satan's accusations just as He hears our prayers. We come boldly before the throne (Hebrew 4:16; 10:19) but not physically. I believe that the heaven in question in Rev. 12 is the second heaven - where Satan currently rules from (Eph. 2). In fact, Rev. 12:12 references the "heavens" (plural).

I understand that this doesn't line up with your view. There are some assumptive aspects, just as there are with yours. Just don't try to big foot everybody like we don't read the Scripture, when all you're doing, by your own admission, is assuming as well.

[Deade]

Scripture says that, no less than at the time of Jesus's ministry, that Jesus is the only begotten, [and that means to be born of human birth], Son of God:

*[[Joh 3:18]] KJV* He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Any one referred to as a son of God prior to this time can only be of divine nature and not of human origins.

Blessings
The PuP

Well sure, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God but what of OT believers. Are they not adopted sons of God? Enoch, Noah, Moses, etc. how do we classify them?

Do you believe that the nephilim of Gen. 6 are angels? Why that is ludicris. One, they are spirits, they can't mate with anyone. Two, they only do what God allows them to do. Or do you think God has lost control?

We may not know for sure why things are phrased certain ways, but I will not deny the power of God. My God reigns supreme!

[ewq1938]

[COLOR=#0000cd]One, they are spirits, they can't mate with anyone.

They are not spirits in the sense you are implying. They are called "spirits" as a figure of speech not that they are bodiless spirits. Angels are physical beings and are capable of mating with human women but it's a huge sin which got many of them sent to the deepest part of Hades and they will die the second death in the lake of fire.

[Deade]

They are not spirits in the sense you are implying. They are called "spirits" as a figure of speech not that they are bodiless spirits. Angels are physical beings and are capable of mating with human women but it's a huge sin which got many of them sent to the deepest part of Hades and they will die the second death in the lake of fire.

Scripture please? Also when was it appointed for angels to die once?

[Pesachpup]

Well sure, Jesus is the only begotten Son of God but what of OT believers. Are they not adopted sons of God? Enoch, Noah, Moses, etc. how do we classify them?

Do you believe that the nephilim of Gen. 6 are angels? Why that is ludicris. One, they are spirits, they can't mate with anyone. Two, they only do what God allows them to do. Or do you think God has lost control?

We may not know for sure why things are phrased certain ways, but I will not deny the power of God. My God reigns supreme!

You need to have a scriptural basis concerning Noah, Enoch & Moses to even ask such a question.

The PuP