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Thread: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

  1. #16
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm certainly not a Pretribber, but Luke 21 defines the "Great Tribulation" as the "Wrath" of God.

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    It seems very clear, as I've said repeatedly, that this demonstrated wrath of God against the Jewish People hit a high mark in 70 AD, and initiated a long period of Jewish Diaspora. They were dispersed from Israel, and since then they've wandered. This is a period of God's wrath against them for having adopted a religion outside the context of God's covenant with them, which He made through Jesus.

    This is so plain from the context of the synoptic gospels, Matt 24, Mar 13, and Luke 21. They all begin the Discourse with news of the approaching destruction of the temple in "this generation." It happened in 70 AD, in the generation of Jesus. And this period would end at the 2nd Coming, at the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. It will be cut off because of the survival of the Jewish elect, which are Christians.

    All of this is so obvious. All three synoptic gospels say the same thing. The AoD, which was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. And then the dispersion of the Jews, leading to an age-long wandering of the Jewish People. This is in fact the worst punishment in Israel's history, due to its length and due to the many terrors involved in pogroms and holocausts. It will be cut short to save Israel so that Israel may become a Christian nation.

    Nothing could be more clear. And yet so few choose to believe what Jesus said in Luke 21! This long period of Jewish desolation in the NT period will be cut off to preserve Israel from extinction. But it takes place on behalf of the Christians in Israel, the "elect" of God. And so, when Christ returns he will gather his elect, the Christians from throughout the world.

    This great ingathering of Christians from Israel, who have been dispersed throughout the world, will also include Christians from other nations, according to Paul. But Jesus was here talking primarily of Israel, because at that time only Israel was in view. Restoration of the Christians in Israel make way for the restoration of the whole nation.
    Yes Randyk, the wording of Luke 21 is clear. And the wording of Luke 21 is very similar to Matthew 24. It's as if both Matthew and Luke remembered the same phrases of Jesus yet applied that wording differently. Jesus spoke about both the coming 70AD distress and the coming tribulation just before the second coming, Luke clearly as quoted above concentrating on 70AD and Matthew clearly focusing on events just before the second coming.

    History shows 70AD and the subsequent dispersion was a huge distress for Jews , yet prophecy shows repeatedly that there will be a future 3.5 years of great tribulation on earth. One should not under-emphasize either truth.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    The GT would be from 1290 to the 1335 day not 3.5 years.

    Dan12
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

    Matt 24
    15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

    1290th day +

    21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

    It is pretty clear.
    You have not shown anything here. Here is the full text and context of Daniel 12:11. It is Daniel 12:6-13;

    6 "And one said to the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, How long shall it be to the end of these wonders?
    7 And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.
    8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?
    9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
    10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
    11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
    12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

    13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

    In this text THREE periods of time are given;
    1. In verse 7 it is, "time, times and a half" - that is three and a half years or 1260 days
    2. In verse 11 it is, 1,290 days
    3. In verse 12 it is, 1,335 days

    In the whole Chapter we have THREE events, or wonders;
    1. In verse 1 we have the Great Tribulation and angel Micheal's efforts to deliver the Remnant. This time is posted multiple times in Revelation as 1,260 days
    2. In verse 2 We have the resurrection of all circumcised Israelites and their judgement before Jesus who will decide on fame or contempt. This I judge will take us until 1,290 days - 30 days after the return of Christ from the sky.
    3. In verse 12 we have Daniel standing in his "lot" or his "destiny" (Strong). That is, the return of each Israelite to his possession in the Good Land will take another 45 days, making the tIME from the Gentile Beast claiming the Temple, the whole Land of Israel, and the whole world UNTIL our Lord Jesus is fixed/established in His Land, and owner of all Israel, and every Jew has been returned to his "lot", will be 1,335 days.

    We could debate the last two as the evidence is scanty, but what is clearly shown both in Daniel and in Revelation is that the TIME of TRIBULATION is 1,260 days.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


    Verse 1 clearly calls these the vials of the wrath of God. Note whom the first one is poured out on. It is poured out on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. But until a beast first rises out of the sea, and one of it's heads has a deadly wound that was healed, then another beast rises out of the earth, then suggests making an image to the beast with the deadly wound that was healed, and then causing all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, how could any vials be poured out on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, before there is even a mark to take or not take?

    Apparently then, the 42 months the beast is given to continue, this has to first be fulfilled before any vials are being unleashed on anyone.

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


    Does it sound like anyone is being plagued by vials of wrath at this time? No, unless one would have us believe that they wondered who is like unto the beast?...who is able to make war with him?...while experiencing a noisome and grievous sore at the same time. Not to mention the effects of the other vials.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Does it sound like, per Revelation 13:4, that utter sudden destruction has already come upon them at this point? No. Therefore, during the 42 month reign of the beast, those worshiping it, they would be saying peace and safety, from their perspective of things. But when the first vial of wrath is poured out on them, it would be equal to sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. This would be after the GT. This would be during the time of the 6th seal, the same era of time Matt 24:29 makes mention of after the GT but prior to the 2nd coming, that being when the sun shall be darkened, etc.
    You would have an argument IF the Book of Revelation was CHRONOLOGICAL. But it is not. It is a description of events surrounding the REVEALING (Apokalypsis) of our Lord Jesus. For instance the Kingdoms of this earth become the property of our LOrd Jesus already by Chapter11. But the battle that causes this take-over is in Chapter 19. The Seals ARE the Wrath of God (Rev.6:17). Their opening is the start of God's wrath, and the contents of the Seals casts men and the earth into Tribulation.

  4. #19
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    In both Matthew and Mark it is unavoidable from the grammar that the trigger for the Great Tribulation is the Abomination of Desolation predicted in Daniel Chapter 9. Luke, on the other hand, presents the SAME thing slightly differently. It is true that up to 21:23 the events of 70 AD are in view. But this section does not describe the Great Tribulation. It describes "distress in the Land" and "wrath upon THIS people". The "Land", according to the context must be Israel, or better said Judah. "Distress" is a different word in the Greek to that used for "Tribulation". And "THIS people" according to the context must be Israelites. Thus, Luke 21 up to verse 24 CONCERNS Judah, Jews and 70 AD - NOT THE WHOLE WORLD!

    But then Luke changes to another time. In verse 24 he encompasses the WHOLE NEW TESTAMENT AGE. It is, in Luke 21:24, "And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." That is, the TIME PERIOD in this verse is FROM 70 AD until the Gentiles are no longer rulers of this earth. The Beast is a Gentile king, so this verse goes from 70 AD until Armageddon when the last, and universal Gentile king, is removed and an Israelite of the House of David - Jesus, rules Israel and the world.

    Verses 25 to 28 concern that momentous event, the "Apokalypsis" or REVEALING of Jesus Christ from the sky. And verses 29-32 GIVE THE SIGN LEADING UP TO THIS EVENT.

    29 "And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand."


    The sign is TWOFOLD;
    1. The FIG TREE. After the Babylonian Captivity the remaining Jews are no longer the Vine. They are the Fig Tree. And "shoot forth" in the Greek means to push out leaves and/or blossoms. Now, the leaves of a tree are its covering or "Garment" (Gen.3:7), and a garment in Parable is "WORKS" - the things they DO. For Judah to sprout leaves means that they will keep the Law, for this was the condition it was in when Christ cursed it in Matthew 19. Judah had the Temple and kept the Law of Moses but did not have FRUIT from this EFFORT. Now, at the close of the age, Judah becomes a sign of Christ's coming. And the only thing that can allow the leaves to sprout is that there must be a Temple. The Temple is an integral part of the Law and the Law can only be kept if there is a Temple. Since there is no Temple YET in Jerusalem, this event is still FUTURE TO US in 2018. We cannot take 1948 because there was no Temple. We cannot even take 2018 as there is still no way for Judah to sprout leaves.
    2. ALL THE TREES. There are two established things about the nations as we speak now. (i) The nations are multiplying. Since 1948 when Israel became a nation again, over 30 new nations have come into being. (ii) The WORKS, or "leaves" of the nations are sprouting forth. Not works of the Law of Moses, BUT EVIL WORKS. Violence and sexual offense especially have reached pandemic proportions. This is all predicted by Matthew 24:12.

    These two signs have not reached their consummation yet, be we are close. The point is, the Grand SIGN of the onset of the Great Tribulation is the construction of a Temple in Jerusalem, and the lesser sign is the increase of nations and the increase of their evil works. So the Great Tribulation is still FUTURE to us.

    Now we come to verse 32, which causes problems for many. It reads; "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." In our common daily language we use the word "generation" to mean a specific group of offspring. I have 4 grandchildren now and we call them,"the next generation". At the same time, in matters political and economic, my wife and I call our own children, "this generation" for they are movers and shakers in the world today. And generally we tend to give the TIME of a generation as about 30 years. That is, the TIME it takes for a child to become a man, marry and produce offspring, is about 30 years. But the Bible seldom uses this meaning of "generation". The Bible uses the word "generation" in its TRUE SENSE. That is, WHAT IS GENERATED. In Genesis 5:1-3 we have Adam and the WHAT HE GENERATED. This view is crucial because in Genesis 1:11-12 God made an immutable Law that everything with seed inside itself would produce the SAME. And Genesis 5, while giving the offspring of Adam, reveals a much more sinister event. In verse 1 we learn that, "... In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him". That is, Adam's offspring should have been in the likeness of God. BUT THEY WERE NOT! Verse 3 says that Adam, "... begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth". Why is this? What happened? The dreary truth is that Adam had fallen and was no longer in the likeness of God. And he "GENERATED" Seth "in his OWN likeness" - a fallen and depraved human. And from then on man GENERATES fallen and depraved men.

    Thus, the meaning of "generation" in the Bible, especially in the new Testament, is WHAT KIND IS GENERATED. And this is the majority use in the Bible. Let us just look at two scripture to establish this.

    (1)
    Matthew 23:31-33 reads;
    31 "Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"


    Here, it is at once evident that our Lord Jesus established, (i) that the Jews were "children" of the Jews who killed the prophets, (ii) that these children would have the same propensity as their father and would continue to kill prophets, and (iii) they were the same generation, NOT IN TIME BUT NATURE. Their fathers had the nature of the Serpent, and their children had the same NATURE. Viper had, according to God's Law of Genesis 1:11-12, GENERATED VIPER. It was not a question of TIME but of NATURE.

    (2)
    Matthew 12:33-35 reads;
    33 "Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.
    34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
    35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things."


    These verses need very little explanation. We can observe it in nature. A tree that produces poisonous fruit and thorns, when it's seeds fall to earth, GENERATES more trees that have the same poisonous fruit and thorns. So also the Pharisees. Their fathers had a serpentine nature and thus, what they GENERATED had a serpentine nature. IT IS ONE GENERATION - THAT OF THE SERPENT. From Egypt where Israel worshiped idols, to the Wilderness and the Golden Calf, to the rebellion at Kadesh-Barnea, to the killing of prophets and kings, to the conspiracy against Jesus, Israel was a GENERATION of Vipers.

    Now, we have also deal with those places in scripture which speak of a "certain" generation like Genesis 15:16, "But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full", and Exodus 1:6, "And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.". It is true that this meaning of "generation" is used in scripture, mostly in the Old Testament. But what is NOT established is the length of life of a specific generation. Various lengths of time from 130 years in Adam and Seth's case, to 100 years in the case of the Israelites in Egypt to 29 years for Nahor to beget Terah. That is, even if we wanted to apply a TIME to a generation, we cannot. We are obliged to interpret scripture with scripture, and scripture does not lay down a fixed TIME for a generation. Added to this, if we wanted to give a TIME to "..., This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.", and the starting point was those who were adults and persecuting Jesus in about 30 AD, we would imply that they lived nearly 2,000 years. The verse says that they would see "ALL FULFILLED" INCLUDING THE COMING OF OUR LORD JESUS - AN ABSURDITY!

    So when our Lord Jesus said "this generation", He meant what nearly the whole New Testament means with "generation". He meant the WHOLE LINE OF THE VIPER - the GENERATING OF THE SERPENTINE NATURE.

    Thus, Luke does not present anything different to Matthew and Mark. Just the layout is slightly different. The Great Tribulation starts with the Abomination of Desolation. The Abomination of Desolation needs a Holy Place, and the "Holy Place" is part of the TEMPLE, just as 2nd Thessalonians 2:4 says. "Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."

  5. #20
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    1. The so-called "Great Tribulation" will encompass all the earth. In Revelation 3:10 our Lord Jesus speaks out a REWARD. It is, "Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, ... ". Then He goes on to say what He will keep them from, "... I also will keep thee from the hour of trial ... ", and finally the SCOPE of the TRIAL, "... which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." In harmony with this is the Lord's statement in Matthew 24:21-22; "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Verse 21 does not give the SCOPE of the "great tribulation", but it states that it will be worse than the flood of Noah and thus implies it to be UNIVERSAL. Then verse 22 gives the SCOPE of this "great tribulation". It comes on "ALL FLESH" for if it is left to run its course it would wipe out "all flesh", even the "elect". "All flesh" would include the animals too.
    2. In Matthew 24:15-22 the starting point of the Great Tribulation is laid down. 15. "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand) .... 21. For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be." That is, when the Beast, or in Daniel's case, a Roman prince, stops the daily oblation 3½ years into the 70th SEVEN, and sets up himself and his golden effigy in the Holy of Holies, THEN does the Tribulation start. Then, seeing as Daniel says that at the end of the 70th SEVEN in Daniel 9:24, "is determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, (i) to finish the transgression, and (ii) to make an end of sins, and (iii) to make reconciliation for iniquity, and (iv) to bring in everlasting righteousness, and (v) to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy", the Great Tribulation must last 3½ years. This is confirmed in other scriptures like Revelation 11:2-3, 12:6, 14 and 13:5.
    3. The "Elect" are the Jewish Remnant who turn back to the Law and oppose the Beast's breaking the Law by having a Gentile king, a Gentile king in the Holy of Holies and a Gentile king's effigy in the Holy of Holies. In Deuteronomy 30:1-5 Moses prophesied that God will recover Israel, even after they have been dispersed among all nations for breaking the Covenant of Sinai. The condition for God to move is that certain Israelis would turn back to what Moses was expounding "that day". On "that day", Moses was expounding the Law. Just as God has always kept a faithful REMNANT for Himself through the centuries, so He will have this REMNANT at the end of the age. These are those predicted in Romans 9:27 and 11:5. They are those who, from the Twelve Tribes of Israel, are "sealed" in Revelation 7:1-8 so that the effects of the Great Tribulation do not kill them. They are seen again in Revelation 12 as those, who, having incurred the wrath of Satan by "keeping the Commandments of God" (just as Moses predicted), must flee to the wilderness for the duration of the Great Tribulation. The context of Matthew 24:1-31 is ALL JEWISH, and thus the "elect" of verse 31 must be Jews. They are the only ones who have been dispersed to the "four winds" (Ezek.37:9, Zech.2:6). The conditions during the Great Tribulation PLUS the efforts of Satan to kill this REMNANT would finally win if God did not shorten the days of Tribulation to 1260 days, 42 months and/or a "time, times and half a time".

    The Great Tribulation;
    1. Is still future
    2. Encompasses all the earth
    3. Lasts 3½ years
    I agree that the Great Tribulation is YET to start and remains a future event. Although there are one or two issues I disagree with and to pursue them now will be a digression. I really hope that Randy is actively participating in this discussion as he is among the handful who hold that the GT started from the A4E era.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    How can that be? According to Matthew 24:29-31 ...

    29 "Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


    ... three things happen IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Great Tribulation;
    1. The "powers of heaven" are shaken. That is no doubt the ejection of all fallen angels - "stars" that fall. The ripping of one third of the heavenly principalities would shake heaven, and the accompanying signs of darkness indicate God's judgement - this time not on men but on those in heaven who are His enemies.
    2. Christ returns from the sky
    3. Israel is gathered from the nations

    AFTER the Great Tribulation Christ begins the work of restoring the earth and particularly Israel.
    I am not sure whether you are Pretrib or Post-trib, but your remarks are leading me to assume you're the former. It is impossible to justify that it's only Israel in Matt 24:31. You also assumed that only Israel is the "elect" in whose favour the GT is shortened. We must, therefore, examine whether the concept of election or the *elect* speaks exclusively to Israel or extended to the Jew/Gentile faithful?

    The argument for Israel alone as the *elect* in the context of Matt 24:22 & 31 is debunked since there is ZERO prophecy that the sound of a TRUMPET will herald the gathering of Israel. Therefore, I see Matt 24:31 as the RAPTURE of the church. Understandably, Pretrib has problems with this view, since they claim the church is already in heaven at this time.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Right divaD, there is confusion over the GT and the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath.
    But that Day is not after the Return, but years before; at the Sixth Seal. The confusion arises with the idea that Matthew 24:29 means a further and separate Judgement. But that verse doesn't say that, just some cosmic signs, which may immediately precede the Return of Jesus, or a little time before it; during the Seventh Bowl. Revelation 16:17-23
    I see the GT running concurrently with the Day of the Lord's wrath or Wrath of the Lamb.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    So it is the "elects" flesh to be spared. Now thru scipture the elect is Israel. And I dont see any believers on earth when Christ returns as that would mean some to survive the mark of the beast which scipture says they do not. So then is there a "living" remnant of Israel on earth when Christ returns?

    If there are then HOW do they inherit the kingdom as mortals? How do they die? are they killed by Christ?

    So I think the key word here is "flesh" does this really mean living people? I don't think so.... There are different types of flesh.

    39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.

    Thus is it possible the flesh to be saved would be celestrial? This is why I say this......

    The elect being Israel are beheaded for thier witness prior and are seen with the lamb on Mt. Zion BEFORE this great tribulation. Rev 14. To me they are the army of God upon his return and being celestrial to have flesh which could be detroyed by fire thus God shortens his wrath to preserve them.

    All other flesh on earth is destroyed. And again the only flesh on earth is flesh and blood which are the wicked.
    I am a bit confused by your post. For a start, I don't believe that the elect is exclusively those of Jewish extraction. To me. it refers to all the faithful in Christ - Jew and Gentile.

    Your claim that the *flesh* for whom the GT is shortened is not humans is perhaps, the most bizarre theory I've heard on the subject. Why will Jesus shorten the GT because of birds and fishes, etc?

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    You know my view, brother. My view, however, gets lost over the many contrasting views, so I'd like to regurgitate, as well.

    The Great Tribulation began in 70 AD and ends at the end of the age. A time of trouble actually began before that, in the time of Antiochus 4 and following.

    This necessitated the rise of Michael the Archangel to protect the Jewish People until their promised hope could be fulfilled. The trouble I refer to is the intertestamental period, in which the Jews experienced a degree of autonomy, but never a full recovery to national glory.

    The Romans overshadowed Israel, and ultimately took control over her. And this is what led to the 70 AD Great Tribulation.

    Obviously, all of this prophecy was focused upon the Jewish People primarily, even as Jesus gathered followers from among the Jewish People. It was a forecast of Israel's future history, both Christian and non-Christian.

    I'm perfectly willing to provide all of the pertinent Scriptures passages to validate this position. Just ask--I've provided them recently.
    Indeed, that's why I'll refrain and leave it to others to comment

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Revelation 16:1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
    2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.


    Verse 1 clearly calls these the vials of the wrath of God. Note whom the first one is poured out on. It is poured out on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image. But until a beast first rises out of the sea, and one of it's heads has a deadly wound that was healed, then another beast rises out of the earth, then suggests making an image to the beast with the deadly wound that was healed, and then causing all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, how could any vials be poured out on the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image, before there is even a mark to take or not take?

    Apparently then, the 42 months the beast is given to continue, this has to first be fulfilled before any vials are being unleashed on anyone.

    Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?


    Does it sound like anyone is being plagued by vials of wrath at this time? No, unless one would have us believe that they wondered who is like unto the beast?...who is able to make war with him?...while experiencing a noisome and grievous sore at the same time. Not to mention the effects of the other vials.

    1 Thessalonians 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
    3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

    Does it sound like, per Revelation 13:4, that utter sudden destruction has already come upon them at this point? No. Therefore, during the 42 month reign of the beast, those worshiping it, they would be saying peace and safety, from their perspective of things. But when the first vial of wrath is poured out on them, it would be equal to sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. This would be after the GT. This would be during the time of the 6th seal, the same era of time Matt 24:29 makes mention of after the GT but prior to the 2nd coming, that being when the sun shall be darkened, etc.
    I agree... I would like also to point out that there is indeed a Wrath of the Lamb (starting at the 1st Sounding of the Trumpet Judgement in Rev 9) and a SPECIFIC WRATH OF GOD (which is the wrath of the Father in Heaven through the bowls of Wrath, and includes His Son's battle of Armageddon.)

    #3 The Great Tribulation is indeed cut short, so that the Elect (Children of Israel who will call upon the name of the Lord) & the Gentile Christians left alive). We can know the GT is cut short by comparing Matt 24:21-31 to Revelations 6:7-7:17.

    1) The Tribulation starts and people are killed apparently so fast that it seems no God fearing person will survive in Matt 24:22. In Rev 6:7-8 we have a killing of 1/4 pf the population of earth... Sounds like Great Tribulation to me... Is there that many God fearing people on the earth? Sure there is!
    2) Matt 24:22 tells us of the shortening of the GT. Shortening from what length? Jesus had mentioned the abomination of Desolation in Daniel which starts the GT, which all Scholars would immediately attach to 3.5 times. So logically the shortening is from 3.5 to an unknown time. Rev 6:9-11 also shows a "short time" when Jesus gives the Martyrs white robes and answers their questions of "HOW LONG?" with "a little season", which is implied shorter than 3.5 times.
    3) Matt 24:29 then shows signs in the Sun, Moon and stars, then relates that to the appearing of Christ on the Clouds to "gather the Elect" together. The 6th Seal Opening of Rev 6 IS CLEARLY this same event. Therefore, unless the 70th week ends at the 7th Seal opening (which we all know is not true), then the GT has indeed been cut short. We also know that a Group of Believers that are not considered JEWS are taken into the Lords prescience "OUT OF [as it is ending] THE GREAT TRIBULATION" in Rev 7:9-17.

    I believe the Great Tribulation Ends at the 6th Seal opening, HOWEVER, there is no problem with saying the Great Tribulation continues for the unbelieving until the end of the 70th Week, becasue it ALREADY ENDED for all those who were gathered together by Christ Jesus and His angels at a "cut short" moment, which in itself is announced at the opening of the 6th Seal.

  11. #26
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am not sure whether you are Pretrib or Post-trib, but your remarks are leading me to assume you're the former. It is impossible to justify that it's only Israel in Matt 24:31. You also assumed that only Israel is the "elect" in whose favour the GT is shortened. We must, therefore, examine whether the concept of election or the *elect* speaks exclusively to Israel or extended to the Jew/Gentile faithful?

    The argument for Israel alone as the *elect* in the context of Matt 24:22 & 31 is debunked since there is ZERO prophecy that the sound of a TRUMPET will herald the gathering of Israel. Therefore, I see Matt 24:31 as the RAPTURE of the church. Understandably, Pretrib has problems with this view, since they claim the church is already in heaven at this time.
    Your questions are fair and a comprehensive answer might profit others.

    The questions posed by the disciples in Matthew 24:3 are three;
    1. when shall these things be?
    2. what shall be the sign of thy coming?
    3. what shall be the sign of the end of the age (aion - Gk.)?

    At the end of the age there will be the THREE peoples that Ephesians 2:15 declares. Out of "twain" (two) a "New Man (a third) is built". That gives;
    1. Israel
    2. The nations
    3. The New Man

    And each has their destiny when our Lord comes and closes the age of grace. Matthew 24 and 25 deal with each of these groups. If we examine Chapter 24 4-31 we can see that EVERYTHING is about the Jews and Jerusalem.
    1. Many will come claiming to be Christ. The Jews still look for Messiah out of Bethlehem. They are susceptible to deception. The Church looks for Christ from the sky so they cannot be fooled, and the nations do not look for Christ. This is a Jewish problem
    2. The Jews are hated by all nations. No other nation is hated like them
    3. Israel has a history of false prophets. The Church has false teachers. The nations believe any rubbish. Israel is famous for ts prophets
    4. The abomination of desolation was spoken of by Daniel a Jewish prophet, for "his" people - the Jews
    5. The holy place is part of the Jewish Temple
    6. Judaea is Jewish territory
    7. The Sabbath Day is exclusive to the Jews
    8. "The Elect" are the Jewish Remnant as seen in verse 24 and Roman 9:11, 11:5, 7 & 28. I will expand on "the elect" presently. The nations do not look for Christ and the Church looks toward heaven from Christ
    9. The "Carcase" and "Vultures" are the result of the slaughter of Armageddon. "Eagle" is not a wrong translation. The word can mean BOTH Eagle and Vulture, but a "carcase" is usually an attraction for a vulture. Thus, this refers to the valley of Megiddo in Israel
    10. The Coming of our Lord Jesus is aimed at the Mount of Olives. That s next to Jerusalem in Israel
    11. A "trumpet" is for gathering. Israel have a long history of gathering by trumpet. Israel is "gathered by a "GREAT" trumpet - the Church by the "LAST" Trumpet
    12. Only Israelites where dispersed to the "four winds" (Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6)

    I have listed 12 proofs that this section of scripture deals with ALL things Jewish. Now we come to the "Elect". In the Bible, a quick search will show that the "Elect" can be;
    • Christ (Isa.42:1; 1st Pet.2:6)
    • Israel (Isa.45:4, 65:9)
    • The Church (Rom.8:33; Col.3:12; Tit.1:1)
    • Individual Christians (2nd Jn.1:1, 13)
    • Angels (1st Tim.5:21)

    Thus, there is only one way to decide on which "Elect" are meant - THE CONTEXT. And with TWELVE proofs that context concerns Israel, and only Israel being scattered to the "four winds", there is unassailable evidence that the "Elect" of Matthew 24:31 are the Jews in dispersion.

    To complete this posting, I need to show the divisions for the other two peoples on earth at Christ's Coming - the Church and the nations. Matthew 24:31 still concerns the Jews. Then suddenly, verse 32 points to a Parable. This alone should be proof enough that the Church is meant, for Parables are given to the Church ONLY to "learn" from (Matt.13:10-11). But there is more. The section from 24:32 to 25:30 does not deal with SIGNS. It ideals with a MORALITY. The Church must "live by faith", so no signs are given. The problem with the Church is "will they be "Watching" when Christ comes? Will they be in a condition to receive the Holy One? Will they be ready for the Bema - the Judgement Seat of Christ in the air? And this same section deals with "SERVANTS". Since Israel's rejection of their Messiah they are NOT SERVANTS but ENEMIES (Lk.19:27). The nations not only do not serve Christ, they are totally indifferent to Him and His wishes. Only the Church could be "Servants" at the end of the age. So this section- Matthew 24:32 to 25:30 concerns the Church.

    The final section, Matthew 25:31-46 clearly deals with the nations. It says it outright in verse 32. Added to this, these before the "THRONOS" - Gk. (Throne) are not before the BEMA like Christians. What is more, they admit not knowing Christ. And finally, they are OPPOSED to the "least of Christ's brethren", not part of them.

    I hope this is a understandable build-up of proof that Matthew 24:4-31 deals with the Jews at the end of the age.

  12. #27
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    Yes Randyk, the wording of Luke 21 is clear. And the wording of Luke 21 is very similar to Matthew 24. It's as if both Matthew and Luke remembered the same phrases of Jesus yet applied that wording differently. Jesus spoke about both the coming 70AD distress and the coming tribulation just before the second coming, Luke clearly as quoted above concentrating on 70AD and Matthew clearly focusing on events just before the second coming.

    History shows 70AD and the subsequent dispersion was a huge distress for Jews , yet prophecy shows repeatedly that there will be a future 3.5 years of great tribulation on earth. One should not under-emphasize either truth.
    I appreciate our points of agreement, but we are not in agreement on any difference between Luke's version and Matthew's version. They are the exact same Discourse under discussion! There is no difference whatsoever in my view. One view is not historical, and the other future. This would make the versions incompatible with each other.

    If we use the same view of the Great Tribulation that Luke had and apply it in Matthew we find the exact same meaning without any incompatibilities. You really haven't demonstrated how Matt 24 is "future." You are just asserting it, as if the Abomination that causes Desolation has to be a future event. Actually, nothing in the account indicates this or demands it. You are just asserting it based on popular views.

    I see nothing that makes Luke 21 and Matt 24 different in any way, other than each version uses its own particular terminology and phraseology. They are saying the *same things!* For goodness sake, just try this approach. It makes perfect sense. The popular approach today of a future AoD, and of a future Great Tribulation, is rife with problems and incompatibilities. It causes Scripture to look bad, and impossible to make rational sense out of.

  13. #28
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Walls said

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I am not sure whether you are Pretrib or Post-trib, but your remarks are leading me to assume you're the former. It is impossible to justify that it's only Israel in Matt 24:31. You also assumed that only Israel is the "elect" in whose favour the GT is shortened. We must, therefore, examine whether the concept of election or the *elect* speaks exclusively to Israel or extended to the Jew/Gentile faithful?

    The argument for Israel alone as the *elect* in the context of Matt 24:22 & 31 is debunked since there is ZERO prophecy that the sound of a TRUMPET will herald the gathering of Israel. Therefore, I see Matt 24:31 as the RAPTURE of the church. Understandably, Pretrib has problems with this view, since they claim the church is already in heaven at this time.
    Your idea about no trumpet being blown to gather Israel does not agree with:

    *[[Isa 27:12]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
    *13* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    The PuP

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Your idea about no trumpet being blown to gather Israel does not agree with:

    *[[Isa 27:12]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
    *13* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    The PuP
    I agree. I've had to fight with this one for a long time, because I knew 1) that Israel's national restoration was predicted, and 2) that the Church would be "Raptured."

    So I argued (within myself), Did Jesus' prediction of the regathering of the elect have to do with Israel's national restoration or with the Church's glorification? Paul clearly indicated the latter, that the regathering of the elect at the 2nd Coming of Christ has to do with the regathering of the Church.

    But did Paul necessarily exclude the restoration of Israel along with this glorification event? No, he extrapolated from what Jesus said about Israel and applied it to the universal Church. What Jesus said was said under the era of the Law, and applied strictly to Israel. But Paul knew that what Jesus had applied to Israel could also be applied to the elect Gentiles, ie the universal Church!

    So my belief is that Jesus spoke of the salvation of national Israel as an event that begins with the regathering of Christians in Israel. But the assumption being made here is that this is preparatory for the restoration of national Israel as well, since it is the institutionalization of the Church in Israel that enables the reconstruction of Israel along spiritual lines. In other words, Christians in Israel are given authority over national Israel at the Coming of Christ so that Israel can be both restored and preserved forever.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I agree... I would like also to point out that there is indeed a Wrath of the Lamb (starting at the 1st Sounding of the Trumpet Judgement in Rev 9) and a SPECIFIC WRATH OF GOD (which is the wrath of the Father in Heaven through the bowls of Wrath, and includes His Son's battle of Armageddon.)

    #3 The Great Tribulation is indeed cut short, so that the Elect (Children of Israel who will call upon the name of the Lord) & the Gentile Christians left alive). We can know the GT is cut short by comparing Matt 24:21-31 to Revelations 6:7-7:17.

    1) The Tribulation starts and people are killed apparently so fast that it seems no God fearing person will survive in Matt 24:22. In Rev 6:7-8 we have a killing of 1/4 pf the population of earth... Sounds like Great Tribulation to me... Is there that many God fearing people on the earth? Sure there is!
    2) Matt 24:22 tells us of the shortening of the GT. Shortening from what length? Jesus had mentioned the abomination of Desolation in Daniel which starts the GT, which all Scholars would immediately attach to 3.5 times. So logically the shortening is from 3.5 to an unknown time. Rev 6:9-11 also shows a "short time" when Jesus gives the Martyrs white robes and answers their questions of "HOW LONG?" with "a little season", which is implied shorter than 3.5 times.
    3) Matt 24:29 then shows signs in the Sun, Moon and stars, then relates that to the appearing of Christ on the Clouds to "gather the Elect" together. The 6th Seal Opening of Rev 6 IS CLEARLY this same event. Therefore, unless the 70th week ends at the 7th Seal opening (which we all know is not true), then the GT has indeed been cut short. We also know that a Group of Believers that are not considered JEWS are taken into the Lords prescience "OUT OF [as it is ending] THE GREAT TRIBULATION" in Rev 7:9-17.

    I believe the Great Tribulation Ends at the 6th Seal opening, HOWEVER, there is no problem with saying the Great Tribulation continues for the unbelieving until the end of the 70th Week, becasue it ALREADY ENDED for all those who were gathered together by Christ Jesus and His angels at a "cut short" moment, which in itself is announced at the opening of the 6th Seal.
    IMO
    the 'great tribulation' has multiple parts and is actually the 1st event happening:
    21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.

    great tribulation, then false christs arise, some people are deceived, the kingdom of heaven is established (time of the 10 virgins), then the false christs rule the deceived people, then the great tribulation removes these false christs (7 bowls of wrath).

    The notion of a 'whisked away' rapture prevents people from understanding a few things.

    Jesus' arrival (by the 1st Trumpet) upon earth is different from Jesus' taking control of the world at the 7th trumpet.

    The establishment of the kingdom of heaven (on earth) starts at the 1st Trumpet. At the 6th Seal/ 1st Trumpet = 'immediately after the tribulation of those days, then the sign of son of man will appear, and the 'angels' / 'messengers' will gather the elect.' The wrath of God announced at the 6th Seal (which is put into effect at Trumpets 1-4) removes Satan from the kingdom of heaven (on earth). (Synonymous with the 'kingdom of heaven/ 10 virgins from Matt 25 below)

    The kingdom of heaven rules the world at the 7th trumpet. That pattern repeats again, after the tribulation of the antichrist, then the angels / messengers gather elect (the 'come up here' to the 2 witnesses), then the 7 bowls of the wrath of God remove the beast from the sea & the beast from the earth.

    Satan's wrath (which serves God's purpose of punishment) is the 1st part of the 'great tribulation = 6th Seal (Daniel 8:10-11). In essence, Satan is attempting to take over the 'kingdom of heaven' (I suppose some might call this the 'church'). This is expressed as 'the people of the prince to come will destroy the city & the sanctuary', aka the abomination of desolation army that encompasses Jerusalem to place the abomination idol. The abomination of desolation idol indirectly is creating the kingdom of heaven (on earth) due to the fact that the people who will not worship it are the people who 'flee from Judea' (literally flee from Jerusalem and/ or, metaphorically speaking, the Christian faithful flee from the holy place that has been defiled) and comprise the 10 virgins in Matt 25

    Then the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish, and five were wise. 3 For when the foolish took their lamps, they took no oil with them, 4 but the wise took flasks of oil with their lamps.

    5 As the bridegroom was delayed, they all became drowsy and slept. 6 But at midnight there was a cry, ‘Here is the bridegroom! Come out to meet him.’ 7 Then all those virgins rose and trimmed their lamps. 8 And the foolish said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil, for our lamps are going out.’ 9 But the wise answered, saying, ‘Since there will not be enough for us and for you, go rather to the dealers and buy for yourselves.’ 10 And while they were going to buy, the bridegroom came, and those who were ready went in with him to the marriage feast, and the door was shut. 11 Afterward the other virgins came also, saying, ‘Lord, lord, open to us.’ 12 But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’ 13 Watch therefore, for you know neither the day nor the hour.

    God's wrath at Trumpets 1-4 removes Satan from 'the kingdom of heaven' (on earth) which has just begun. (The 1/3 portion doesn't refer to a physical amount per se, it refers to the heaven portion: Satan in 'heaven', 'sea', & 'earth' (which are all on Earth). Satan being kicked out of 'heaven' (on earth) = the establishment of the 'kingdom of heaven' (on earth). Satan is still present in 'the beast from the sea' & the 'beast from the earth'. (the remaining 2 portions). (Rev 12:7-12) (Satan is not 'in heaven' heaven, Satan is in the kingdom of heaven on earth. Satan's removal is the establishment of the kingdom of heaven.

    7 Now war arose in heaven, Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon. And the dragon and his angels fought back, 8 but he was defeated, and there was no longer any place for them in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

    10 And I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, “Now the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ have come, for the accuser of our brothers has been thrown down, who accuses them day and night before our God. 11 And they have conquered him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, for they loved not their lives even unto death.

    12 Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!


    This establishment of the kingdom of heaven (on earth) (at the 1st Trumpet) is different from the kingdom of heaven (on earth) ruling the world which occurs at the end of the 2nd woe/ start of the 7th Trumpet. Jesus does 'arrive' at the 1st Trumpet, but doesn't take control of the world until later - his arrival is 'delayed' (Matt 25:5 above), the purpose of which is to test the 10 virgins to see who is faithful. In this manner, the church is purified. There is no 'whisked away' rapture. The dead faithful are gathered in heaven, the living faithful are gathered on earth. When the abomination appears at the 6th Seal, this begins the process of being gathered (because the abomination idol has scattered people/ they have fled from Judea). The 'come up here' of Rev 11:12 is a reference to Luke 14's 'friend, move up higher' - exalting the humble. (Also note that the word 'cloud' in Rev 11:12 & 1 Thess 4:17 is the Greek word 'nephele' (G3507) which also means 'great multitude' (http://biblehub.com/greek/3509.htm) as we saw in Rev 7:9.)


    7Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, 8 “When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, 9 and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. 11For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

    God's wrath that is portrayed in the 7th Trumpet (which contains the 7 bowls of wrath) removes the 'beast from the sea' & 'the beast from the earth'. (the remaining 2 portions of Satan on the earth).

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