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Thread: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

  1. #31
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by blur1 View Post
    IMO
    the 'great tribulation' has multiple parts and is actually the 1st event happening:
    21For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect....

    God's wrath that is portrayed in the 7th Trumpet (which contains the 7 bowls of wrath) removes the 'beast from the sea' & 'the beast from the earth'. (the remaining 2 portions of Satan on the earth).
    There is a wrath associated with the 2nd Coming of Christ. That has to do with the defeat of Antichrist, and with Christ coming to judge the eternal fate of men.

    But there is also another, different wrath of God associated with the fate of national Israel in the NT era. And that is what Luke 21 specifically refers to, enabling us to interpret what the Great Tribulation is. It is, as I've repeatedly stated, the Jewish Diaspora of the NT period. It is not strictly an endtimes event associated with the Reign of Antichrist and associated with the Wrath of God to be revealed just before and at Christ's 2nd Coming.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your questions are fair and a comprehensive answer might profit others.

    The questions posed by the disciples in Matthew 24:3 are three;
    1. when shall these things be?
    2. what shall be the sign of thy coming?
    3. what shall be the sign of the end of the age (aion - Gk.)?

    At the end of the age there will be the THREE peoples that Ephesians 2:15 declares. Out of "twain" (two) a "New Man (a third) is built". That gives;
    1. Israel
    2. The nations
    3. The New Man

    And each has their destiny when our Lord comes and closes the age of grace. Matthew 24 and 25 deal with each of these groups. If we examine Chapter 24 4-31 we can see that EVERYTHING is about the Jews and Jerusalem.
    1. Many will come claiming to be Christ. The Jews still look for Messiah out of Bethlehem. They are susceptible to deception. The Church looks for Christ from the sky so they cannot be fooled, and the nations do not look for Christ. This is a Jewish problem
    2. The Jews are hated by all nations. No other nation is hated like them
    3. Israel has a history of false prophets. The Church has false teachers. The nations believe any rubbish. Israel is famous for ts prophets
    4. The abomination of desolation was spoken of by Daniel a Jewish prophet, for "his" people - the Jews
    5. The holy place is part of the Jewish Temple
    6. Judaea is Jewish territory
    7. The Sabbath Day is exclusive to the Jews
    8. "The Elect" are the Jewish Remnant as seen in verse 24 and Roman 9:11, 11:5, 7 & 28. I will expand on "the elect" presently. The nations do not look for Christ and the Church looks toward heaven from Christ
    9. The "Carcase" and "Vultures" are the result of the slaughter of Armageddon. "Eagle" is not a wrong translation. The word can mean BOTH Eagle and Vulture, but a "carcase" is usually an attraction for a vulture. Thus, this refers to the valley of Megiddo in Israel
    10. The Coming of our Lord Jesus is aimed at the Mount of Olives. That s next to Jerusalem in Israel
    11. A "trumpet" is for gathering. Israel have a long history of gathering by trumpet. Israel is "gathered by a "GREAT" trumpet - the Church by the "LAST" Trumpet
    12. Only Israelites where dispersed to the "four winds" (Ezek.37:9; Zech.2:6)
    For a start, how you got 3 (Israel, The nations The New Man) people groups from Eph 2:15 is ambiguous to me and I don't think I agree that it's what Eph 2:15 says.

    1. Even though Jesus addressed Jewish disciples at the OD, I believe that those who use this as a conviction that the discourse pertains exclusively to Israel are missing the point. We know that God's redemptive plan for Gentiles was only revealed after the ascension when it was given to Paul en route to Damascus. So Jesus addressed his faithful (the church). I have not seen anything that persuades me otherwise that Jesus was not speaking collectively to the Jew and Gentile in the Olivet Discourse.

    2. Undoubtedly, Jerusalem will play a pivotal role in the end times, so there are some of the prophecies that exclusively pertain to Israel e.g. reference to the Sabbath day, the AoD etc.

    3. Since you separated Israel from the church, where do you place Jewish Christians? Don't you realise that the Jewish and Gentile Christian are the same before God?

    I have listed 12 proofs that this section of scripture deals with ALL things Jewish. Now we come to the "Elect". In the Bible, a quick search will show that the "Elect" can be;
    • Christ (Isa.42:1; 1st Pet.2:6)
    • Israel (Isa.45:4, 65:9)
    • The Church (Rom.8:33; Col.3:12; Tit.1:1)
    • Individual Christians (2nd Jn.1:1, 13)
    • Angels (1st Tim.5:21)

    Thus, there is only one way to decide on which "Elect" are meant - THE CONTEXT. And with TWELVE proofs that context concerns Israel, and only Israel being scattered to the "four winds", there is unassailable evidence that the "Elect" of Matthew 24:31 are the Jews in dispersion.

    To complete this posting, I need to show the divisions for the other two peoples on earth at Christ's Coming - the Church and the nations. Matthew 24:31 still concerns the Jews. Then suddenly, verse 32 points to a Parable. This alone should be proof enough that the Church is meant, for Parables are given to the Church ONLY to "learn" from (Matt.13:10-11). But there is more. The section from 24:32 to 25:30 does not deal with SIGNS. It ideals with a MORALITY. The Church must "live by faith", so no signs are given. The problem with the Church is "will they be "Watching" when Christ comes? Will they be in a condition to receive the Holy One? Will they be ready for the Bema - the Judgement Seat of Christ in the air? And this same section deals with "SERVANTS". Since Israel's rejection of their Messiah they are NOT SERVANTS but ENEMIES (Lk.19:27). The nations not only do not serve Christ, they are totally indifferent to Him and His wishes. Only the Church could be "Servants" at the end of the age. So this section- Matthew 24:32 to 25:30 concerns the Church.

    The final section, Matthew 25:31-46 clearly deals with the nations. It says it outright in verse 32. Added to this, these before the "THRONOS" - Gk. (Throne) are not before the BEMA like Christians. What is more, they admit not knowing Christ. And finally, they are OPPOSED to the "least of Christ's brethren", not part of them.

    I hope this is a understandable build-up of proof that Matthew 24:4-31 deals with the Jews at the end of the age.
    Your 12 "proof" doesn't actually prove that Jesus had only Israel in mind in Matt 24:1-31. It is also a misapplication to claim that Jesus spoke to the church in parables. Jesus spoke in parables to ALL Israel in his time but explained some of his parables to his disciples for their understanding. However, there is no basis to claim that that Jesus is still speaking to the church in parables.

    I have read and read again, everything you've written but still can't find any proof that the elect is Israel alone. Maybe others, may see it differently?

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Your idea about no trumpet being blown to gather Israel does not agree with:

    *[[Isa 27:12]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the LORD shall beat off from the channel of the river unto the stream of Egypt, and ye shall be gathered one by one, O ye children of Israel.
    *13* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the great trumpet shall be blown, and they shall come which were ready to perish in the land of Assyria, and the outcasts in the land of Egypt, and shall worship the LORD in the holy mount at Jerusalem.

    The PuP
    Many believe that this prophecy was fulfilled after the Babylonian and Assyrian exiles.

  4. #34
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Many believe that this prophecy was fulfilled after the Babylonian and Assyrian exiles.
    The "house of Israel"in verse 12 refers to much more than Judah and Benjamin and a smattering of a few members from the other 10 tribes.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    *12* And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    The SECOND gathering of the remnant has not happened. The context of Isa 11 is a continuation of chapters that precede it, especially that of when the Assyrian comes into the land:

    *[[Isa 10:5]] KJV* O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
    *6* I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets...
    *12* Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks...
    *20* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
    *21* The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God...
    *23* For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
    *24* Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate our points of agreement, but we are not in agreement on any difference between Luke's version and Matthew's version. They are the exact same Discourse under discussion! There is no difference whatsoever in my view. One view is not historical, and the other future. This would make the versions incompatible with each other.

    If we use the same view of the Great Tribulation that Luke had and apply it in Matthew we find the exact same meaning without any incompatibilities. You really haven't demonstrated how Matt 24 is "future." You are just asserting it, as if the Abomination that causes Desolation has to be a future event. Actually, nothing in the account indicates this or demands it. You are just asserting it based on popular views.

    I see nothing that makes Luke 21 and Matt 24 different in any way, other than each version uses its own particular terminology and phraseology. They are saying the *same things!* For goodness sake, just try this approach. It makes perfect sense. The popular approach today of a future AoD, and of a future Great Tribulation, is rife with problems and incompatibilities. It causes Scripture to look bad, and impossible to make rational sense out of.
    I think you need to do a careful study on the order of events in each book.
    Luke 21:
    Roman army
    Destruction of the temple
    Diaspora
    Great signs
    Second coming

    Matthew 24
    Spread of the Gospel to all Nations
    Abomination
    Great signs
    Second coming

    Both chapters deal with a different set of events. Matthew mentions the question answered in Matthew:Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

    Luke does not even mention that question about the second coming and the end of the world. Showing that although both deal with the Olivet discourse, both books are in essence answering different questions.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I appreciate our points of agreement, but we are not in agreement on any difference between Luke's version and Matthew's version. They are the exact same Discourse under discussion! There is no difference whatsoever in my view. One view is not historical, and the other future. This would make the versions incompatible with each other.

    If we use the same view of the Great Tribulation that Luke had and apply it in Matthew we find the exact same meaning without any incompatibilities. You really haven't demonstrated how Matt 24 is "future." You are just asserting it, as if the Abomination that causes Desolation has to be a future event. Actually, nothing in the account indicates this or demands it. You are just asserting it based on popular views.

    I see nothing that makes Luke 21 and Matt 24 different in any way, other than each version uses its own particular terminology and phraseology. They are saying the *same things!* For goodness sake, just try this approach. It makes perfect sense. The popular approach today of a future AoD, and of a future Great Tribulation, is rife with problems and incompatibilities. It causes Scripture to look bad, and impossible to make rational sense out of.
    In addition , the abomination is an end time event. The abomination in Daniel 9 occurs half a seven before the end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). The abomination in Daniel 12 occurs 1290 days before the resurrection. The image in Rev 13 is a far more abominable event than a Roman army. It reminds us of Antiochus image in Daniel 8 and 11 and occurs 42 months before the second coming. And Antiochus image is also an abomination. There is no biblical precedent for an army which is an agent of God's wrath being an abomination.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The "house of Israel"in verse 12 refers to much more than Judah and Benjamin and a smattering of a few members from the other 10 tribes.

    *[[Isa 11:11]] KJV* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
    *12* And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

    The SECOND gathering of the remnant has not happened. The context of Isa 11 is a continuation of chapters that precede it, especially that of when the Assyrian comes into the land:

    *[[Isa 10:5]] KJV* O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation.
    *6* I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets...
    *12* Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks...
    *20* And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, in truth.
    *21* The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God...
    *23* For the Lord GOD of hosts shall make a consumption, even determined, in the midst of all the land.
    *24* Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD of hosts, O my people that dwellest in Zion, be not afraid of the Assyrian: he shall smite thee with a rod, and shall lift up his staff against thee, after the manner of Egypt.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    The problem with ascribing Matt 24:31 to Israel is that the gathering of would have happened long before Jesus returns, therefore doesn't fit v31. The remnant of Israel is those that will escape into the desert for protection. The Jews that fail to heed the warning to escape will be slaughtered by the AC's army. If the Jews who remain in Jerusalem are not safe from the AC, I don't see who those who remain among the nations will fare any better?

    I don't claim to know it all, but I see the gathering of Israel happening at the time of the Two Witnesses. I believe their flight into the desert will happen after the death of the 2Ws.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    In addition , the abomination is an end time event. The abomination in Daniel 9 occurs half a seven before the end to sin in Jerusalem (v24). The abomination in Daniel 12 occurs 1290 days before the resurrection. The image in Rev 13 is a far more abominable event than a Roman army. And occurs 42 months before the second coming. This is all pretty clear.
    Yes, that's clear, that Antichrist is probably a greater abomination, in some ways, than the Roman Army, though some may dispute that. After all, the abomination of 70 AD, or the Roman Army's desolation of Jerusalem, led to 2000 years of Jewish suffering! Can you get any worse than that? Even the desolations and persecutions of Antichrist cannot hold a candle to that!

    Again, your claim that the Abomination is future is purely based on hypothesis and popular myth. There is absolutely no basis in Scriptural fact!

    1) Jesus began his Discourse with the central feature: the destruction of the temple, and when it would happen--it would be in "this generation," ie Jesus' generation.
    2) Jesus said, in Luke's version, that it would involve encirclement of Jerusalem by armies, leading to the fall of Jerusalem, with an accompanying dispersion of the Jews, lasting until the end of the age.

    What on earth is so complicated about that? Why bring in Daniel's 70th Week, and all kinds of theories about what the book of Revelation means, in order to distance yourself from the obvious conclusions?

    I will say this much for your position. If you conclude that some of the prophecies in Daniel, which I believe refer to Antiochus 4, have something to do with Antichrist, you might view the AoD as happening in the future. That's for sure.

    But I think the premise is false. A central prophecy in the book of Daniel is the account of Antiochus 4. To ignore this, and to apply his prophecies to the Antichrist and to a future AoD is what creates confusion out of an otherwise easy interpretation.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    I normally avoid regurgitating topics that have been exhaustively debated over the years. But unfortunately, some of the topics, especially those at the heart of eschatology seem to have a recurring theme. With opinions and interpretations as numerous and diverse as the sand on a beach, it becomes impossible to avoid revisiting these subjects time and again.

    This thread is necessitated by a relative discussion in another OP.

    According to 3 synoptic Gospel's account of the Olivet Discourse, what is your understanding of the following:


    1. Do you believe that the Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21-22; Mark 13:19-20; Luke 21:22) is exclusively a Jewish tribulation or will it have world-wide ramifications i.e. affects Gentiles too?
    2. Some argue that it (G.T) already started from the Antiochus 4 era, yet others assert that it started from 70 AD. Do you agree with this view or do you believe it is an end-time event?
    3. What do you understand by "shortening the tribulation to save lives" (Matt 24:22)?


    Please support your views with scripture.

    Already over. Fulfilled in 70AD.
    “A” cannot be “A” & not “A” at the same time.

    מקום כניעה סך הכל

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, that's clear, that Antichrist is probably a greater abomination, in some ways, than the Roman Army, though some may dispute that. After all, the abomination of 70 AD, or the Roman Army's desolation of Jerusalem, led to 2000 years of Jewish suffering! Can you get any worse than that? Even the desolations and persecutions of Antichrist cannot hold a candle to that!

    Again, your claim that the Abomination is future is purely based on hypothesis and popular myth. There is absolutely no basis in Scriptural fact!

    1) Jesus began his Discourse with the central feature: the destruction of the temple, and when it would happen--it would be in "this generation," ie Jesus' generation.
    2) Jesus said, in Luke's version, that it would involve encirclement of Jerusalem by armies, leading to the fall of Jerusalem, with an accompanying dispersion of the Jews, lasting until the end of the age.

    What on earth is so complicated about that? Why bring in Daniel's 70th Week, and all kinds of theories about what the book of Revelation means, in order to distance yourself from the obvious conclusions?

    I will say this much for your position. If you conclude that some of the prophecies in Daniel, which I believe refer to Antiochus 4, have something to do with Antichrist, you might view the AoD as happening in the future. That's for sure.

    But I think the premise is false. A central prophecy in the book of Daniel is the account of Antiochus 4. To ignore this, and to apply his prophecies to the Antichrist and to a future AoD is what creates confusion out of an otherwise easy interpretation.
    The abomination is mentioned 4 times in Daniel.
    I agree Antiochus is in mind in Daniel 8 and Daniel 11. This image is the example of what an abomination is.

    I showed you the end times context and 3.5 year periods of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12. This is what you need to answer. No hypothesis or myth, it's the best way to read the text in both cases.

    Daniel has the symbolic precedence for Revelation. You may find that the description in Rev 13 matches the historical precedence of Antiochus abomination better than any army.

    And regarding your points 1 and 2. Sure I agree with them. Luke refers to the Romans of 70AD and the subsequent diaspora.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by DurbanDude View Post
    The abomination is mentioned 4 times in Daniel.
    I agree Antiochus is in mind in Daniel 8 and Daniel 11. This image is the example of what an abomination is.

    I showed you the end times context and 3.5 year periods of Daniel 9 and Daniel 12. This is what you need to answer. No hypothesis or myth, it's the best way to read the text in both cases.

    Daniel has the symbolic precedence for Revelation. You may find that the description in Rev 13 matches the historical precedence of Antiochus abomination better than any army.
    I'm not interested in symbolic references as much as in explicit theology. Nowhere is the AoD said to be the Antichrist! End of argument.

    The 1290 days has to do with Antiochus 4. Don't base your eschatology on the symbolism Antiochus creates. I agree Antiochus is a symbol. But nowhere does his AoD represent Antichrist as THE AoD. That is the point.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm not interested in symbolic references as much as in explicit theology. Nowhere is the AoD said to be the Antichrist! End of argument.

    The 1290 days has to do with Antiochus 4. Don't base your eschatology on the symbolism Antiochus creates. I agree Antiochus is a symbol. But nowhere does his AoD represent Antichrist as THE AoD. That is the point.
    The 1290 days is in the resurrection context of Daniel 12. End times context.

    The half seven in Daniel 9 ends with an end to sin in Jerusalem. End times context. Both involve 3.5 years. Furthermore the last section of Daniel 11 also leads up to the resurrection, showing overlaps between the boastful leader of Daniel 11 with the abomination period of Daniel 12. Logical deduction.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by ross3421 View Post
    I would say the wrath of God are the 7 vials which equals the GT
    I would instead say the wrath of God are the 7 vials which does not equal the GT, There, I fixed it for you.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'm certainly not a Pretribber, but Luke 21 defines the "Great Tribulation" as the "Wrath" of God.

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    It seems very clear, as I've said repeatedly, that this demonstrated wrath of God against the Jewish People hit a high mark in 70 AD, and initiated a long period of Jewish Diaspora. They were dispersed from Israel, and since then they've wandered. This is a period of God's wrath against them for having adopted a religion outside the context of God's covenant with them, which He made through Jesus.

    This is so plain from the context of the synoptic gospels, Matt 24, Mar 13, and Luke 21. They all begin the Discourse with news of the approaching destruction of the temple in "this generation." It happened in 70 AD, in the generation of Jesus. And this period would end at the 2nd Coming, at the fulfillment of the times of the Gentiles. It will be cut off because of the survival of the Jewish elect, which are Christians.

    All of this is so obvious. All three synoptic gospels say the same thing. The AoD, which was the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple. And then the dispersion of the Jews, leading to an age-long wandering of the Jewish People. This is in fact the worst punishment in Israel's history, due to its length and due to the many terrors involved in pogroms and holocausts. It will be cut short to save Israel so that Israel may become a Christian nation.

    Nothing could be more clear. And yet so few choose to believe what Jesus said in Luke 21! This long period of Jewish desolation in the NT period will be cut off to preserve Israel from extinction. But it takes place on behalf of the Christians in Israel, the "elect" of God. And so, when Christ returns he will gather his elect, the Christians from throughout the world.

    This great ingathering of Christians from Israel, who have been dispersed throughout the world, will also include Christians from other nations, according to Paul. But Jesus was here talking primarily of Israel, because at that time only Israel was in view. Restoration of the Christians in Israel make way for the restoration of the whole nation.
    I can certainly understand, per your take here, why you would conclude the GT is the wrath of God. But per my take though, the GT is meaning the 42 month reign of the beast in Rev 13. The 42 month reign of the beast is not the wrath of God. The wrath of God follows that reign.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    #1. I agree. I've had to fight with this one for a long time, because I knew 1) that Israel's national restoration was predicted, and 2) that the Church would be "Raptured."

    #2. So I argued (within myself), Did Jesus' prediction of the regathering of the elect have to do with Israel's national restoration or with the Church's glorification? Paul clearly indicated the latter, that the regathering of the elect at the 2nd Coming of Christ has to do with the regathering of the Church.

    #3. But did Paul necessarily exclude the restoration of Israel along with this glorification event? No, he extrapolated from what Jesus said about Israel and applied it to the universal Church. What Jesus said was said under the era of the Law, and applied strictly to Israel. But Paul knew that what Jesus had applied to Israel could also be applied to the elect Gentiles, ie the universal Church!

    #4. So my belief is that Jesus spoke of the salvation of national Israel as an event that begins with the regathering of Christians in Israel. But the assumption being made here is that this is preparatory for the restoration of national Israel as well, since it is the institutionalization of the Church in Israel that enables the reconstruction of Israel along spiritual lines. In other words, Christians in Israel are given authority over national Israel at the Coming of Christ so that Israel can be both restored and preserved forever.
    I stopped reading in paragraph 2 because I have no idea what you are referring to when you say Paul spoke of "gathering the elect". To claim a scriptural point WITHOUT providing the scripture is a point unworthy of consideration. The rest of your "points #3,#4" are... pointless. [I labeled your points just for referencing].

    Blessings
    The PuP

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