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Thread: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

  1. #511
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    I am the seed of Jesus. Is Jesus a Jew?
    Yes, you are of the seed of Jesus. Is Jesus God? Are you a God because you are of the seed of Jesus? No.

    You're conflating Jesus' spirituality with Jesus' ethnicity. These are two different things, because God promised Abraham that his spirituality would be realized in a multitude of nations, including Israel. This means that spirituality involves many ethnicities, and not just being Jewish.

  2. #512

    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Yes, you are of the seed of Jesus. Is Jesus God? Are you a God because you are of the seed of Jesus? No.

    You're conflating Jesus' spirituality with Jesus' ethnicity. These are two different things, because God promised Abraham that his spirituality would be realized in a multitude of nations, including Israel. This means that spirituality involves many ethnicities, and not just being Jewish.
    My friend Jesus is one person. He was a Spirit without bone and flesh. That was before He came living on the earth. And now Jesus have bone and flesh. And He will stay with bone and flesh till the day we see Him.
    I think that I must write here where that rapture theory begin. just relax, and pray my friend.I must write this for you.

  3. #513

    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    I think that i must write how the false rapture theory begin. And one more thing, there is one Jesus and He have flesh and bone. He is not a SPIRIT like angels anymore.

  4. #514
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    [QUOTE=randyk;3459447]Of course I can refute your position, simply by pointing out that the biblical resurrection of the saints takes place at Christ's 2nd Advent, and not at the end of the Millennium. Another resurrection takes place at that time.

    Why do you think the Bible does not in Rev 20 explain when immortality takes place? It is, I think, because resurrection itself, in an eschatological sense, implies immortalization. You don't need to have it explained to you if when the general resurrection takes place, and final salvation comes, that we receive new, sinless bodies. That is the entire teaching of the NT!

    Do I really need to prove that Scriptures show the eschatological resurrection of the saints is synonymous with immortality? It's there in plain sight. /QUOTE]

    Yes you do, because I do not see immortality being conferred upon anyone before the end of the Millennium and the GWT Judgement.
    You say: 'resurrection implies immortalization'. This is where you and those who espouse the 'rapture to heaven' idea, go wrong. Finding 'implications', making 'assumptions', 'supposing' that A + B = C, and just making wild guesses, is not proper Bible exegesis.

    I reiterate: Jesus does promise Eternal Life to those who follow Him. John 3:16 But He doesn't say when, until He gives His Revelation to John. THEN we know it will not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

    Your belief that the martyrs brought back to life, as per Revelation 20:4, will have immortality at that point, is just not stated there or anywhere.
    The fact that they can die again is proved by Revelation 20:6.....over them the second death has no power.... Because their names will be found in the Book of Life and they WILL receive Eternal life, AFTER the GWT Judgement.

    Your ramble about the elements of our physical bodies, is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the spiritual bodies that those worthy will eventually receive for Eternity.

  5. #515
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    I think that i must write how the false rapture theory begin. And one more thing, there is one Jesus and He have flesh and bone. He is not a SPIRIT like angels anymore.
    You may as well not waste your time. Those who have been somewhat careless; Matthew 24:4, and misled, usually by people they trusted to preach the truth, but were in fact: wolves among the flock, they have grasped onto the 'rapture to heaven' theory wholeheartedly and are now locked into it. Isaiah 29:9-12, Matthew 11:12

    This is a sad situation, because many with little faith will renounce God when , on the Day He takes action, they remain on earth as disaster strikes.

    It is also sad, because they miss out on anticipating what God actually does promise to His people, their destiny of being His faithful people in His holy Land, His witnesses and His Light to the world. Ample prophecy proves this scenario.

  6. #516
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    [QUOTE=randyk;3459447]Of course I can refute your position, simply by pointing out that the biblical resurrection of the saints takes place at Christ's 2nd Advent, and not at the end of the Millennium. Another resurrection takes place at that time.

    Why do you think the Bible does not in Rev 20 explain when immortality takes place? It is, I think, because resurrection itself, in an eschatological sense, implies immortalization. You don't need to have it explained to you if when the general resurrection takes place, and final salvation comes, that we receive new, sinless bodies. That is the entire teaching of the NT!

    Do I really need to prove that Scriptures show the eschatological resurrection of the saints is synonymous with immortality? It's there in plain sight. /QUOTE]


    Yes you do, because I do not see immortality being conferred upon anyone before the end of the Millennium and the GWT Judgement.
    You say: 'resurrection implies immortalization'. This is where you and those who espouse the 'rapture to heaven' idea, go wrong. Finding 'implications', making 'assumptions', 'supposing' that A + B = C, and just making wild guesses, is not proper Bible exegesis.

    I reiterate: Jesus does promise Eternal Life to those who follow Him. John 3:16 But He doesn't say when, until He gives His Revelation to John. THEN we know it will not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

    Your belief that the martyrs brought back to life, as per Revelation 20:4, will have immortality at that point, is just not stated there or anywhere.
    The fact that they can die again is proved by Revelation 20:6.....over them the second death has no power.... Because their names will be found in the Book of Life and they WILL receive Eternal life, AFTER the GWT Judgement.

    Your ramble about the elements of our physical bodies, is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the spiritual bodies that those worthy will eventually receive for Eternity.

  7. #517

    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    The Order of the Jesuit

    My friends I know that the majority Christians don't know their roots. And I will show the raptures adherence from where that false teaching come in this world.

    The Catholic Church has been making stronger and more blatant moves at getting this world ready for that "great day of the Lord". But who exactly is their "Lord"? It is paramount for the Christians today to be able to clearly discern the many ways the devil is using to prepare an unsuspecting world to accept the Mark of the Beast. In order to have a full understanding of the Papacy modern movements and decisions, we MUST understand the role of the Jesuit Order and how the papacy has been utilizing The Jesuit Order to covertly incorporate their schemes for many years.

    Constitution of the Jesuit: "Let's whoever desires to fight under the sacred banner of the Cross, and to serve only God and the Roman pontiff, his vicar on earth,......

    Why was the Jesuit Order Create?

    The Jesuit Order, or the Society of Jesus, also called "Jesuits" today, was founded by a man named Ignatius of Loyola, born Ignatius of Layolain 1491. He maintain a military career as a Spanish knight until he was severely wounded at the battle of Pamplona in 1521. ......

    The Jesuit Order would become the Papacy Counter Reformation, started by reformed Catholic such as Martin Luther, began as a wave of truth in the 1500s ........

    The Jesuit's Influence on Modern Christianity

    So many Christians today do not know where many of the most commonly accepted beliefs even came from, or why they were developed. Throughout the Dark Ages, the Papacy restort to very open and obvious brutal and cruel tactics of attempting to fully wipe out all Bible-believing "heretics". ......

    FUTURISM

    After a member Margaret Mc Donald, of his very large congregation told him that she receives "visions" of end time believers being "rapture" just before the time of the antichrist. Irvin began promoting the Futurist interpretation attached with a new twist of a "secret rapture".

    So this is how to find out, from where a new doctrine come out, from people that just believing people without searching from where they get that information. So from this point you all have seen that the rapture theory is from the devil.

  8. #518
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Yes you do, because I do not see immortality being conferred upon anyone before the end of the Millennium and the GWT Judgement.
    You say: 'resurrection implies immortalization'. This is where you and those who espouse the 'rapture to heaven' idea, go wrong. Finding 'implications', making 'assumptions', 'supposing' that A + B = C, and just making wild guesses, is not proper Bible exegesis.

    I reiterate: Jesus does promise Eternal Life to those who follow Him. John 3:16 But He doesn't say when, until He gives His Revelation to John. THEN we know it will not happen until after the Millennium. Revelation 21:1-7

    Your belief that the martyrs brought back to life, as per Revelation 20:4, will have immortality at that point, is just not stated there or anywhere.
    The fact that they can die again is proved by Revelation 20:6.....over them the second death has no power.... Because their names will be found in the Book of Life and they WILL receive Eternal life, AFTER the GWT Judgement.

    Your ramble about the elements of our physical bodies, is irrelevant and has nothing to do with the spiritual bodies that those worthy will eventually receive for Eternity.
    What you call a "ramble" is just plain logic, or is that too "unspiritual" for you also? I find that those who want everybody to follow them like gurus insult all other teachers as "in their head," while you are "in the Spirit." In reality, I find that the more spiritual ones tend to be more humble. And the more spiritual ones tend to be kinder to other positions, and more patient with different opinions. Just my feeling about it, brother.

    Again, this isn't a competition for me, lest we devolve into name-calling and insults. This is a diverse expression of opinions. Whether you think it is "unspiritual" or not, why not divest yourself of any judgment, and just accept that I have a different opinion than you? I really believe the Bible teaches that the general resurrection *is* immortalization. That is why I quoted 1 Cor 15, where resurrection is explicitly equated with *new bodies.* You completely ignored that point, unless you just didn't see it.

    The general resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming. That is stated in Scriptures many times. Nobody argues that there is another resurrection that takes place after a "First Resurrection" at the end of the Millennium. But to say that immortalization does not take place at the First Resurrection is just your opinion--not Scripture. The Scriptures do not explicitly teach what you are claiming. You are just connecting dots like any logical person would.

  9. #519
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I really believe the Bible teaches that the general resurrection *is* immortalization. That is why I quoted 1 Cor 15, where resurrection is explicitly equated with *new bodies.* You completely ignored that point, unless you just didn't see it.

    The general resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming. That is stated in Scriptures many times. Nobody argues that there is another resurrection that takes place after a "First Resurrection" at the end of the Millennium. But to say that immortalization does not take place at the First Resurrection is just your opinion--not Scripture. The Scriptures do not explicitly teach what you are claiming. You are just connecting dots like any logical person would.
    I have addressed 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 elsewhere. It is a prophecy about the people who will receive immortality and amazingly there will be some alive at that time, who will transfer into immortality without dying. Paul doesn't mention any time for this, but we find out when it will happen in Revelation 21:1-7
    Proved by only after the Millennium, is the final Victory over Death; 1 Corinthians 15:55 paralleled by Revelation 21:4.

    Re a 'general resurrection' at the Return of Jesus. Some verses do make this idea seem possible, mainly due to translators bias, but they are wrong, because Revelation 20:4 is irrefutable: It is only the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation; the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, who will be brought back to life.
    Anyway, believing as the silly 'rapturists' do, that the entire Church will go to heaven, or even as you seem to believe; all the dead Christians resurrected, is sheer fanciful thinking. Before any Judgement? Really!

    Re 'humble'. How can one be humble when promoting the truth of the Prophetic Word? We are told to be bold and forceful in our work of spreading the Gospel, why be timid and weak when proving truths about the end times?

  10. #520
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    My friend Jesus is one person. He was a Spirit without bone and flesh. That was before He came living on the earth. And now Jesus have bone and flesh. And He will stay with bone and flesh till the day we see Him.
    I think that I must write here where that rapture theory begin. just relax, and pray my friend.I must write this for you.
    I don't know that Jesus being flesh and bone has anything to do with what we were talking about? Regardless, I'll be happy to hear what you have to say about where the Rapture Theory began. That's one of my stronger suits, ie understanding the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine. My own position is Postrib, but I'm quite familiar with the debate between the two positions.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    That's you answer? Heb. 9:26-28? Let's address these scriptures that all call a coming:1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Th. 2:19; 1 Th. 4:13-17 and 1 Jn. 2:28. A coming with the resurrection! How say you?
    None of the passages above is the Glorious Second Coming. You claimed there are 3 comings of Christ and I debunked it as unscriptural and I stand by it. The Bible said that when he returns in glory, "every eye shall see him". And furthermore, he will not return alone, but with the church and his glorious angels. Read Rev 19:11-15 for his second coming.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Nothing, except maybe God will give them the strength of Methuselah.
    The could and in my view, probably will die again, like Lazarus did. But over them, the second death has no power, as their names are Written in the Book of Life and immortality will be theirs at the GWT Judgement.
    So it is your learned view that when the Dead in Christ resurrect, there is a strong possibility that they may die and rise several times before the 1000 years is over? Respectfully, I will tell say this is as false as it gets.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Not a theory to say that those Jesus will raise back to life when He Returns, are only the Tribulation martyrs. Revelation 20:4 plainly states that fact.

    The encouragement of the Thess Church and of every martyr since Stephen, is that their names are Written in the Book of Life, therefore they will receive Eternal life and live with God forever, after the Millennium.
    Is this all you can say?

    I'll take your refusal to argue against the passages (1 Thess 4:16-17) I provided to mean you're out of depth here.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    I am the seed of Jesus. Is Jesus a Jew?
    Jesus is a Jew, but you're not. Any Gentile believer out there who claims he's a Jew is confused.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    It is foolish that me and you are eating in a restaurant, and then i don't see you anymore, and then accident, and then plain fall. Call you that a secret event? You go and now we will see if I will go after the 7 years tribulations. And there is chance for me to go living with you. I think that Jesus died on the cross for my salvation. And why I have to wait 7 years and I know if Satan kill me now, and my anchor is in Jesus I will go with HIM in His second coming. Can you see that this rapture theory is from Satan!! To take your eyes far from the truth?. So blind!! I'm sure a real blind man will accept the truth, without seeing what you people see. Because you say that you are not blind, you are guilty of this false rapture theory.
    The inability to fully understand plaintexts is the greatest pitfall of all. To claim that Rapture is unscriptural is not being blind to the truth, but shows spiritual immaturity.

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