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Thread: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

  1. #526
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    I think that i must write how the false rapture theory begin. And one more thing, there is one Jesus and He have flesh and bone. He is not a SPIRIT like angels anymore.
    I can't wait to read your exegesis on how the Rapture theory is false.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Bless you, Jeff for providing Heb 9:28. Some claim that the meeting in the air (1 Thess 4:17) is the second, while his glorious return (Rev 19) is the third. Just when you think you've heard it all, you're hit with something that is beyond ludicrous.
    What is beyond ludacris is that Christ's coming in the clouds does not constitute a coming.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    When Christ comes back "Next" will constitute a coming. When he comes for the saints it is the second coming spoken of many places: 1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Th. 2:19; 1 Th. 4:13-17 and 1 Jn. 2:28.

    All these speak of His glorious, visible second coming!
    From this post you directed me to post #485 that simply listed Heb. 9:26-28. "For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    None of the passages above is the Glorious Second Coming. You claimed there are 3 comings of Christ and I debunked it as unscriptural and I stand by it. The Bible said that when he returns in glory, "every eye shall see him". And furthermore, he will not return alone, but with the church and his glorious angels. Read Rev 19:11-15 for his second coming.
    There is my post. Where did I say Christ was coming a third time? You are the one that says that.

    That's you answer? Heb. 9:26-28? Let's address these scriptures that all call a coming:1 Cor. 15:23; 1 Th. 2:19; 1 Th. 4:13-17 and 1 Jn. 2:28. A coming with the resurrection! How say you?
    So I give you this list of the "next" coming and you agreed and accused me of claiming a third coming. You still don't count your secret rapture as a coming. Why?
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    So it is your learned view that when the Dead in Christ resurrect, there is a strong possibility that they may die and rise several times before the 1000 years is over? Respectfully, I will tell say this is as false as it gets.
    This incoherent and confused post demonstrates how people whose precious beliefs get challenged, get all twisted and make desperate attempts to discredit the messenger. Respectfully? Spare us!

    The martyrs whom Jesus brings back to life at His Return, may die again, like Lazarus did, but like Lazarus, the second death has no power over them. John 11:24.....he will rise again at the last Day. That is; at the Great White Throne Judgement and their names will be found in the Book of Life.

    I can't wait to read your exegesis on how the Rapture theory is false. Quote Trivalee
    You will know it is a lie, when you remain on earth during the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This incoherent and confused post demonstrates how people whose precious beliefs get challenged, get all twisted and make desperate attempts to discredit the messenger. Respectfully? Spare us!

    The martyrs whom Jesus brings back to life at His Return, may die again, like Lazarus did, but like Lazarus, the second death has no power over them. John 11:24.....he will rise again at the last Day. That is; at the Great White Throne Judgement and their names will be found in the Book of Life.

    I can't wait to read your exegesis on how the Rapture theory is false. Quote Trivalee
    You will know it is a lie, when you remain on earth during the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath.
    Why don't you quote where in Scripture it says that martyrs will die again at or after Christ's return? The Great White Throne judgement is after the millennium which is obvious form Rev. 20 just see:

    Rev 20:7 « And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison »

    you can read v. 8 — 10 for yourself...

    Rev 20:11 « And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them »

    So the Great White Throne is not at the last day. This phrase « the last day » points at the end of the current age or aion.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pipiripi View Post
    And one more thing, there is one Jesus and He have flesh and bone. He is not a SPIRIT like angels anymore.
    I'm not sure whether you really understand what you are saying? The fact you believe that Jesus is not a Spirit speaks volumes of your limited knowledge. And since you apparently don't know that Jesus and the angels who are immortal are spirits, why should anyone listen to you on this topic?

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Why don't you quote where in Scripture it says that martyrs will die again at or after Christ's return? The Great White Throne judgement is after the millennium which is obvious form Rev. 20 just see:

    Rev 20:7 « And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison »

    you can read v. 8 — 10 for yourself...

    Rev 20:11 « And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them »

    So the Great White Throne is not at the last day. This phrase « the last day » points at the end of the current age or aion. Aristarkos
    Huh? You quote Rev 20:11, when heaven and earth depart and say that is not the 'last day'? Like saying 'black is white' and 'pigs can fly'.
    The martyrs whose souls Jesus will bring with Him and will be brought back to life, may or may not die again. Obviously, from Isaiah 65:20, people will live much longer during the Millennium. People certainly lived for very long times during the first period of mans Creation.

    The Last Day will be the end of the 7000 years decreed for mankind. Only then, will God do the final wrap up, Judge everyone who has ever lived, dispose of Satan and all the wicked and confer Eternal life onto those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    You may as well not waste your time. Those who have been somewhat careless; Matthew 24:4, and misled, usually by people they trusted to preach the truth, but were in fact: wolves among the flock, they have grasped onto the 'rapture to heaven' theory wholeheartedly and are now locked into it. Isaiah 29:9-12, Matthew 11:12

    This is a sad situation, because many with little faith will renounce God when , on the Day He takes action, they remain on earth as disaster strikes.

    It is also sad, because they miss out on anticipating what God actually does promise to His people, their destiny of being His faithful people in His holy Land, His witnesses and His Light to the world. Ample prophecy proves this scenario.
    Brother, have you ever considered the probability that if anyone is careless with the scriptural truth concerning the rapture, it is you and your ilk who deny it's infallibility? I have painstakingly explained (with scripture) how the church is raptured to heaven to return again with Jesus in glory: vide post #461. But since you are unable to refute my argument, you ignored it and continued with preaching how those who disagree with you are careless.

    Matter of fact, your understanding of God's eschatological plans needs an overhaul because as it stands you've got some fundamental truths woefully wrong.

    1. You claim that immortality will be conferred after the 1000 years is over. This is INCORRECT.
    2. You assert that the church (every believer all over the world) will emigrate to Israel before Jesus returns. This is nowhere stated in the scripture, ergo, INCORRECT.
    3. It is your expert view that the church will not be raptured to heaven. This too is INCORRECT.
    4. You claim that the resurrected Dead in Christ, will die and rise again several times BEFORE they gain immortality. This is false and INCORRECT.

    I could cite more of your questionable theories, but these should suffice for now.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    This incoherent and confused post demonstrates how people whose precious beliefs get challenged, get all twisted and make desperate attempts to discredit the messenger. Respectfully? Spare us!

    The martyrs whom Jesus brings back to life at His Return, may die again, like Lazarus did, but like Lazarus, the second death has no power over them. John 11:24.....he will rise again at the last Day. That is; at the Great White Throne Judgement and their names will be found in the Book of Life.

    I can't wait to read your exegesis on how the Rapture theory is false. Quote Trivalee
    You will know it is a lie, when you remain on earth during the forthcoming Lord's Day of wrath.

    The way you misinterpret plain scripture is pretty alarming. And I really fear for the spiritual wellbeing of the uninformed who reads the 600 articles you claim to have written. I pray and hope that God will give you discernment, but you must ask for it. Just like Paul said of Israel (Rom 10:2) you too, have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. You need to work on it, brother

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The martyrs whose souls Jesus will bring with Him and will be brought back to life, may or may not die again. Obviously, from Isaiah 65:20, people will live much longer during the Millennium. People certainly lived for very long times during the first period of mans Creation.
    You are mistaken when you say Isaiah 65:20 is about The Church of Christ (Bride, etc.). This scripture is taking place after the millennial reign. Christ will remake the earth to hold all the dead down through the ages. This "new earth" will then hold all the people that had not received the Holy Spirit in this life.

    This is when the HS is poured out as spoken in Joel 2:28. This 100 years is the Great White Throne Judgement. It's where Satan will be released a little season. Those that are alive then will have to overcome Satan for themselves. This is when the babies, stillborn, mentally ill and the outer Mongolians from 4000 BC will know of God's ways.

    Still, some people will insist on evil, because they love darkness rather than light. The playing field will not be level. If we have seen much in this life, we will be hindered in the GWTJ.

    Matt. 11:21,24 "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

    We had better be careful how much we see and still don't believe.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trivalee View Post
    Brother, have you ever considered the probability that if anyone is careless with the scriptural truth concerning the rapture, it is you and your ilk who deny it's infallibility? I have painstakingly explained (with scripture) how the church is raptured to heaven to return again with Jesus in glory: vide post #461. But since you are unable to refute my argument, you ignored it and continued with preaching how those who disagree with you are careless.

    Matter of fact, your understanding of God's eschatological plans needs an overhaul because as it stands you've got some fundamental truths woefully wrong.

    1. You claim that immortality will be conferred after the 1000 years is over. This is INCORRECT.
    2. You assert that the church (every believer all over the world) will emigrate to Israel before Jesus returns. This is nowhere stated in the scripture, ergo, INCORRECT.
    3. It is your expert view that the church will not be raptured to heaven. This too is INCORRECT.
    4. You claim that the resurrected Dead in Christ, will die and rise again several times BEFORE they gain immortality. This is false and INCORRECT.
    Scriptural truth concerning the 'rapture to heaven'? I know the Bible very well and there is no verse that says God will take His people to heaven.
    That theory must be construed from verses like; not appointed to wrath and escape all these things, etc. They do not say anything about going to heaven or removed from trials and testing. But there are many that say how the Lord will protect those who call upon His Name.

    Your points above refuted;
    1/ Immortality cannot happen to anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:12
    2/ John sees every faithful Christian believer, from every tribe, race, nation and language, in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:9
    3/ The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is a Satanic lie, a fable that many have been deceived by. Jesus Returns with His angels only. Matthew 16:27
    4/ I NEVER said; they die several times. Over them, the second death has no power. They will be raised to immortality at the GWT.

    Your attempts to put me in error, just make yourself the accuser.

    Brother Trivalee, we have discussed these issues for some time now. I know you to be a genuine Christian and we mustn't allow disagreements over what may or may not happen in the end times to cause animosity.
    A removal to heaven versus a gathering in the holy Land are two scenarios, that if one believes the wrong one, there should be no loss, provided we trust and praise God for whatever He does for us.

    What we are plainly told to do when the Lord's Day of wrath does strike, is to call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I have addressed 1 Corinthians 15:50-56 elsewhere. It is a prophecy about the people who will receive immortality and amazingly there will be some alive at that time, who will transfer into immortality without dying. Paul doesn't mention any time for this, but we find out when it will happen in Revelation 21:1-7
    Proved by only after the Millennium, is the final Victory over Death; 1 Corinthians 15:55 paralleled by Revelation 21:4.

    Re a 'general resurrection' at the Return of Jesus. Some verses do make this idea seem possible, mainly due to translators bias, but they are wrong, because Revelation 20:4 is irrefutable: It is only the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation; the last 3 1/2 years before Jesus Returns, who will be brought back to life.
    Anyway, believing as the silly 'rapturists' do, that the entire Church will go to heaven, or even as you seem to believe; all the dead Christians resurrected, is sheer fanciful thinking. Before any Judgement? Really!

    Re 'humble'. How can one be humble when promoting the truth of the Prophetic Word? We are told to be bold and forceful in our work of spreading the Gospel, why be timid and weak when proving truths about the end times?
    I think the Scriptures themselves ask us to be humble. As I said, for me being humble means to be able to view other opinions with respect. But you know what's right and wrong, brother. There is a difference between being bold with the word of God, and being amicable. It's not just you, but I get this kind of self-anointed "prophet" attitude with people on chat groups all the time. You need to know the difference between prophecy and an "educated opinion."

    I do believe the Church goes to heaven in a "Rapture," of sorts. But it is only for a second of time. It is for the purpose of acquiring new immortal bodies, as Christ breaks through the clouds. Our purpose is to establish the new reign of Christ on the earth, and not live in heaven. But I consider it possible that during the 1000 years reign of Christ we may not live physically on the earth until after the end of that period--I just don't know.

    I think the Scriptures pretty consistently place the resurrection *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. And that's my point. You're right that another resurrection takes place after the thousand years. But it's pretty clear that the First Resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and it is only your exegesis that makes this strictly about those beheaded by the Beast.

    Clearly, the First Resurrection focuses on those beheaded by the Beast. But I think others are included in this, who are identified as those who will reign with Christ. We already know that the entirety of the saints up to that point will enter into reign with Christ, and so will be included in this First Resurrection.

    But don't let that one passage convinced you. The entire New Testament testifies that the general resurrection takes place at the 2nd Coming of Christ. So we need to adjust our view of Rev 20 accordingly, if it is out of sync with this!

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    The very purpose of Christ's Coming will be to raise God's people from the dead so that they will establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This comes from Dan 7.

    1 Thes 1.6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

    When Paul talks about Christ coming to be glorified in the Church he is talking about our receiving glorified bodies at the resurrection.

    Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

    Dan 12.1-2 is a summation of what had earlier been said in Dan 7 concerning the coming of Christ's Kingdom and his deliverance of the saints. This takes place at the end of the age, immediately after the destruction of Antichrist.

    And so, the resurrection takes place immediately after the trouble of this age which takes place for Israel. And we know Israel's time of "great tribulation" ends at Christ's Coming. That's when the resurrection of the saints takes place. And that's when Christ is glorified in his people, which is another way of saying the Church obtains new glorified bodies.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I think the Scriptures themselves ask us to be humble. As I said, for me being humble means to be able to view other opinions with respect. But you know what's right and wrong, brother. There is a difference between being bold with the word of God, and being amicable. It's not just you, but I get this kind of self-anointed "prophet" attitude with people on chat groups all the time. You need to know the difference between prophecy and an "educated opinion."

    I do believe the Church goes to heaven in a "Rapture," of sorts. But it is only for a second of time. It is for the purpose of acquiring new immortal bodies, as Christ breaks through the clouds. Our purpose is to establish the new reign of Christ on the earth, and not live in heaven. But I consider it possible that during the 1000 years reign of Christ we may not live physically on the earth until after the end of that period--I just don't know.

    I think the Scriptures pretty consistently place the resurrection *at* the 2nd Coming of Christ. And that's my point. You're right that another resurrection takes place after the thousand years. But it's pretty clear that the First Resurrection takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming, and it is only your exegesis that makes this strictly about those beheaded by the Beast.

    Clearly, the First Resurrection focuses on those beheaded by the Beast. But I think others are included in this, who are identified as those who will reign with Christ. We already know that the entirety of the saints up to that point will enter into reign with Christ, and so will be included in this First Resurrection.

    But don't let that one passage convinced you. The entire New Testament testifies that the general resurrection takes place at the 2nd Coming of Christ. So we need to adjust our view of Rev 20 accordingly, if it is out of sync with this!

    1 Thes 4.16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

    The very purpose of Christ's Coming will be to raise God's people from the dead so that they will establish the Kingdom of God on earth. This comes from Dan 7.

    1 Thes 1.6 God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7 and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8 He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might 10 on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.

    When Paul talks about Christ coming to be glorified in the Church he is talking about our receiving glorified bodies at the resurrection.

    Dan 12.1 “At that time Michael, the great prince who protects your people, will arise. There will be a time of distress such as has not happened from the beginning of nations until then. But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt."

    Dan 12.1-2 is a summation of what had earlier been said in Dan 7 concerning the coming of Christ's Kingdom and his deliverance of the saints. This takes place at the end of the age, immediately after the destruction of Antichrist.

    And so, the resurrection takes place immediately after the trouble of this age which takes place for Israel. And we know Israel's time of "great tribulation" ends at Christ's Coming. That's when the resurrection of the saints takes place. And that's when Christ is glorified in his people, which is another way of saying the Church obtains new glorified bodies.
    Re humbleness; A person cannot be judged by what they write. The written word does not convey the nuances, body language, tone, etc, so to consider a person arrogant and pushy, just from what they write is unfair and wrong.
    But, yes: I do have difficulty being 'nice' to those who blatantly promote unscriptural and false teachings. Where is the fault there?

    People going to heaven? Jesus said that was impossible. John 3:13 He didn't qualify that plain statement, so it applies to everyone.
    When is immortality given? ONLY at the GWT, when the Book of Life in opened; not before.

    I absolutely refuse to contradict Revelation 20:4. ONLY the martyrs killed during the GT will be resurrected and then not to immortality, yet.

    The people who will reign with Jesus are all the Christians, we see them in the holy Land in Revelation 7, where the 144,000 are selected out of them. Rev 5:9-10 proves it. They are there when the Anti-Christ takes control of the entire world, for 42 months. Revelation 13:7, Daniel 7:25

    1 Thessalonians 1:10 does not say His people will be glorified; bad translation!
    When on that great Day He comes to reveal His glory among His own and His Majesty amongst all believers......REBible

    You again display a sad lack of understanding, when you talk about a redemption of Israel, I presume meaning; Jewish Israelis. The OT prophets tell of their demise and the NT tells of their Judgement and that only a remnant will survive.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The martyrs whose souls Jesus will bring with Him and will be brought back to life, may or may not die again. Obviously, from Isaiah 65:20, people will live much longer during the Millennium. People certainly lived for very long times during the first period of mans Creation.

    The Last Day will be the end of the 7000 years decreed for mankind. Only then, will God do the final wrap up, Judge everyone who has ever lived, dispose of Satan and all the wicked and confer Eternal life onto those whose names are Written in the Book of Life.
    1. Jesus will return with the saints/martyrs who will be in their spiritual immortal bodies, NOT spirits.
    2. They cannot die again.
    3. Isaiah 65:20 refers to the mortals who will live through the millennium. It's not about the resurrected.
    4. The resurrected cannot die again.
    5. I'm not sure where you found the scripture about 7000 years decreed for humanity? But my understanding is that the "Last Day" is not a specific 24hr day. Rather, it pertains to the eschatological period when God settles the account for this age.
    6. The saints receive judgment at the resurrection; this makes it possible for them to reign with Christ over the mortals during the millennium. The passages below proves it:

    26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

    The "end" here denotes when Jesus returns. Jesus said he will give power to his faithful over the *nations*. It is noteworthy that the nations here refers to the wicked mortals who will live in the millennium. Zech 14:16-17 said that they will be mandated to go to Jerusalem yearly to worship the Lord with famine as punishment for failing to do so. After the GWTJ (Rev 11) there will no flesh left alive, so this confirms that the timeline here is the 1000 years.

    27 And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

    Continuing, Jesus said of his saints/martyrs, that he will give them power, to rule over the nations with a rod of iron. Again, this refers to the millennium.

    If you read the Throne Judgment of Rev 11, you'll find that the righteous are not actually there because they have already received immortality and eternal life. The main people judged therein are the ungodly who rise in the second resurrection.

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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deade View Post
    You are mistaken when you say Isaiah 65:20 is about The Church of Christ (Bride, etc.). This scripture is taking place after the millennial reign. Christ will remake the earth to hold all the dead down through the ages. This "new earth" will then hold all the people that had not received the Holy Spirit in this life.

    This is when the HS is poured out as spoken in Joel 2:28. This 100 years is the Great White Throne Judgement. It's where Satan will be released a little season. Those that are alive then will have to overcome Satan for themselves. This is when the babies, stillborn, mentally ill and the outer Mongolians from 4000 BC will know of God's ways.

    Still, some people will insist on evil, because they love darkness rather than light. The playing field will not be level. If we have seen much in this life, we will be hindered in the GWTJ.

    Matt. 11:21,24 "Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

    We had better be careful how much we see and still don't believe.
    On this one, you're even more incorrect that Keraz by asserting that Isaiah 65:20 is after the millennium. This passage speaks of life in the millennium. The mortals who survive the great tribulation and make it into the 1000 years, will enjoy longevity. Those who die young will be at least 100 years old. After the 1000 years comes the Throne judgment of Rev 11 and after that, God the Father comes down to earth to dwell with us. There will be no mortal remaining at that time.

    There is no basis to argue that flesh and blood will be in the NHNE. Think about it, Rev 21 says God's Terbanacles will be on earth then (Rev 21:1-3), so how can flesh and blood share the same space with the Godhead?

    Again you erred by forcing Joel 2:28 into this timeline because it was it was fulfilled at Pentecost.

    Acts 2:15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.

    16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

    17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

    18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:

    19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:

    20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:

    21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.


    Above, Peter reminds those mocking the disciples of being drunk that what they were witnessing was indeed, the fulfilment of Joel 2:28. Joel 2:32 says "whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved". Again, this was fulfilled starting with the 3000 souls that believed that day (Pentecost) and got baptised (Acts 2:41). It has continued until today...whoever shall call upon the name of the Lord, shall be saved.

    The following statement you made is nowhere in the Bible:

    a. That the GWTJ will last 100 years (forgive me if I misunderstood you).
    b. It is nowhere in scripture that Satan is released at the time of the Judgment. The true account is that Satan has already been released BEFORE the Throne the judgment and he goes and gathers the unbelieving born during the MK and surrounds the great city. But God sends down fire from heaven to devour them and Satan himself is finally hurled into the lake of fire (Rev 20:6-10). This is the last event before the GWTJ is set up.
    c. I have no idea where your doctrine is coming from: those alive during the 1000 years will not contend with Satan because he is bound/chained and locked up at that time (Rev 20:2). As for the babies, the stillborn and outer Mongolians...I have no clue what you're on about.

  15. #540
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    Re: Has the Great Tribulation started or is it still in the future?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Scriptural truth concerning the 'rapture to heaven'? I know the Bible very well and there is no verse that says God will take His people to heaven.
    That theory must be construed from verses like; not appointed to wrath and escape all these things, etc. They do not say anything about going to heaven or removed from trials and testing. But there are many that say how the Lord will protect those who call upon His Name.

    Your points above refuted;
    1/ Immortality cannot happen to anyone until the Book of Life is opened. Revelation 20:12
    2/ John sees every faithful Christian believer, from every tribe, race, nation and language, in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal. Rev 7:9
    3/ The 'rapture to heaven' of the Church is a Satanic lie, a fable that many have been deceived by. Jesus Returns with His angels only. Matthew 16:27
    4/ I NEVER said; they die several times. Over them, the second death has no power. They will be raised to immortality at the GWT.

    Your attempts to put me in error, just make yourself the accuser.

    Brother Trivalee, we have discussed these issues for some time now. I know you to be a genuine Christian and we mustn't allow disagreements over what may or may not happen in the end times to cause animosity.
    A removal to heaven versus a gathering in the holy Land are two scenarios, that if one believes the wrong one, there should be no loss, provided we trust and praise God for whatever He does for us.

    What we are plainly told to do when the Lord's Day of wrath does strike, is to call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32 and Acts 2:21
    Please give me the courtesy of referring to the passages I used to support my argument, rather than insinuating those I didn't use. For example, I didn't use "not appointed to wrath and escape all these things" therefore, it's unfair to attribute it to me. Secondly, I never argued that the church will be raptured to save them from the Tribulation. On the contrary, I believe they will be on earth during the GT and be raptured at the end it. I'm Post-trib, not Premil.

    Indeed John saw a great multitude in Rev 7:9. But the question is WHEN will this occur? You have maintained from the start that the Christians will move to the holy land BEFORE Jesus returns. So let's see whether your position is in line with what the text actually said.

    Rev 7:9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    We note from the above that (a) this multitude is standing before the throne of God and the Lamb (b) they are clothed in white.

    1. It is impossible to me that the church can be before the throne of God in heaven while they are flesh and blood in Jerusalem (holy land).

    2. The symbolism of being clothed in white means to be made perfect, ie spiritual body, immortality; a status the mortal church cannot claim while on earth.

    I can dig up where you stated in many places that the resurrected Dead in Christ will die and rise again until the throne judgment. You even used Lazarus to support your case.
    Seriously, can you see how flawed your case is?

    Brother Trivalee, we have discussed these issues for some time now. I know you to be a genuine Christian and we mustn't allow disagreements over what may or may not happen in the end times to cause animosity. A removal to heaven versus a gathering in the holy Land are two scenarios, that if one believes the wrong one, there should be no loss, provided we trust and praise God for whatever He does for us.

    I share the same sentiment and it's always a pleasure to discuss scripture with you, even when we disagree.

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