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Thread: The Two Resurrections

  1. #16
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea of the first resurrection being spiritual in nature.
    If the first resurrection per Rev 20 isn't meaning the bodily resurrection of saints, this would indicate the most important resurrection aside from Christ's resurrection, Rev 20 would be totally silent about it. Because if it's not meaning the first resurrection in Rev 20, what resurrection in Rev 20 could it be meaning then, keeping in mind that only two resurrections are mentioned in that chapter? This is another reason Amil theology must be rejected. It doesn't find the bodily resurrection of the saints anywhere in Rev 20. Doesn't mean Amils reject the thought of a bodily resurrection though. It just means that it makes no sense that the bodily resurrection of the saints isn't even mentioned in Rev 20, per Amil theology.

  2. #17

    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    The Bema judgment seat of Christ spoken of in 2 Cor. 5:10.
    But episkopos, Peter doesn't seem to be referring to a bodily resurrection when he says judgment must begin at the house of God. He's speaking of that judgment happening now, in the present, as the result of following Christ.

    But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name. For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate of those who are disobedient to the gospel of God?
    1Pet.4:16-17

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Interesting thought. But I think that it includes all believers. It says...blessed are they who have part in the 1st resurrection. I think this is the resurrection spoken of in Hebrews that says "a better resurrection."
    Ok, but if the first resurrection is spiritual in nature, everyone who is born again is also blessed. If the first resurrection is when the spiritually dead get saved,

    Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25

    Then the second resurrection is the bodily one and includes both saved and unsaved.

    Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Jn.5:28-29

    Possible?

  3. #18

    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    If the first resurrection per Rev 20 isn't meaning the bodily resurrection of saints, this would indicate the most important resurrection aside from Christ's resurrection, Rev 20 would be totally silent about it. Because if it's not meaning the first resurrection in Rev 20, what resurrection in Rev 20 could it be meaning then, keeping in mind that only two resurrections are mentioned in that chapter? This is another reason Amil theology must be rejected. It doesn't find the bodily resurrection of the saints anywhere in Rev 20. Doesn't mean Amils reject the thought of a bodily resurrection though. It just means that it makes no sense that the bodily resurrection of the saints isn't even mentioned in Rev 20, per Amil theology.
    Think about this. If someone isn't born again, living by Gods Spirit, he will be lost. So being raised from the dead this way is of utmost importance. The fact that the Lambs book of life is opened at the second resurrection indicates both believers and unbelievers are bodily raised at this time.

  4. #19
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Think about this. If someone isn't born again, living by Gods Spirit, he will be lost. So being raised from the dead this way is of utmost importance. The fact that the Lambs book of life is opened at the second resurrection indicates both believers and unbelievers are bodily raised at this time.
    Actually the 2nd resurrection is not about the Lamb's book of life...but just the book of life. It says books were opened....and ANOTHER book was opened which is the book of life.

    So then there are 3 books in both judgments.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.




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  5. #20

    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Actually the 2nd resurrection is not about the Lamb's book of life...but just the book of life. It says books were opened....and ANOTHER book was opened which is the book of life.

    So then there are 3 books in both judgments.
    I believe there is one book of life and it belongs to Jesus. I've already given reasons why the judgment seat of Christ and the GWT judgment might be the same event.

    Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Is a.45:22-23

    When God says all, I believe he means both saved and unsaved and Isaiah is alluding to the judgment seat of Christ.

    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    Rom.14:10-12

  6. #21
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I believe there is one book of life and it belongs to Jesus. I've already given reasons why the judgment seat of Christ and the GWT judgment might be the same event.

    Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else. I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
    Is a.45:22-23

    When God says all, I believe he means both saved and unsaved and Isaiah is alluding to the judgment seat of Christ.

    But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
    Rom.14:10-12

    Do you then think immortals are dead people?

    1 Corinthians 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
    52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
    54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
    55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
    12 And I saw the dead , small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
    13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.


    Does the last trump precede or does it follow after the great white throne judgment? If it precedes it, point out in Rev 20 above where it indicates John saw any immortals stand before God. Does not the text instead indicate he only saw the dead stand before God?

    If the last trump precedes the great white throne judgment, but that these who have already put on immortality also stand in front of God at that time, doesn't that make nonsense out of what immortality means? Doesn't it mean to no longer be dead anymore for forever? And if it does mean that, which of course it does, how then can immortals be among the dead in Rev 20 above? The only way you could be correct, the last trump follows the time of the the great white throne judgment, which seems pretty nonsensical to me though, that there would be a last trump after, instead of before, the great white throne judgment.

  7. #22
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Paul calls death the last enemy which Jesus destroys and this occurs when believers receive immortal bodies. (1Cor.15:26, 51-55)

    Is it possible the GWT judgment and the judgment seat of Christ are the same thing?

    For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son. Jn.5:22 (see also Mt.25:31-46)
    The judgment seat of Christ is the same as the GWTJ.

  8. #23
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I agree: there is only one resurrection into immortality and that is at the Great White throne Judgement of all who have ever lived. Revelation 20:11-15
    The other one mentioned in Revelation 20:4, is just a 'bringing back to life ' of the martyrs killed during the Great Tribulation.

    2 Corinthians 5:10 doesn't say when it happens, it is wrong to place it at the Return, because no other prophecy about the Return, places a general Judgement then.
    So when do you believe Rev 20:4 occurs? On, before or after the 1000 years?

  9. #24
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    This strange theology of yours here, is this self taught, or did you conclude these things because that's what others also concluded, thus you adopted their position? If the former that appears to fall under private interpretation. And if the former, how could you be the only one on the planet that got this right, and that everybody else got it wrong?
    I've often wondered that myself? Since I've not come across anyone else who believes that immortality is given only AFTER the 1000 years is over.

  10. #25
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    Think about this. If someone isn't born again, living by Gods Spirit, he will be lost. So being raised from the dead this way is of utmost importance. The fact that the Lambs book of life is opened at the second resurrection indicates both believers and unbelievers are bodily raised at this time.
    This is a very poor interpretation of the text. Being raised from dead works (Heb 6:1; 9:14) into righteousness is a spiritual experience of repentance and conversion, i.e. to be born again. It is different from the resurrection of the physically dead which is what the 1st resurrection is.

    Even though the Book of Life is opened at the GWTJ, the saints have already reigned with Christ for 1000 years.

  11. #26
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    I wouldn't completely dismiss the idea of the first resurrection being spiritual in nature.

    I tell you the solemn truth, a time is coming - and is now here - when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25

    For everything made evident is light, and for this reason it says: "Awake, O sleeper! Rise from the dead, and Christ will shine on you!" Eph.5:14

    Therefore, if you have been raised with Christ, keep seeking the things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Col.3:1


    It does get complicated...when you consider that we are raised with Christ (spiritually) and one day to be raised (or transformed) bodily.

    But I think the we can be sure that the 1st resurrection is a bodily one whereby the saints rule with Jesus for 1,000 years. This is not a spiritual thing...it is historic in an outward way.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.




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  12. #27
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Now in regard to the 1st resurrection...or Bema seat judgment (for the house of God) notice this reference...

    Dan. 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


    Notice this is not a resurrection of all flesh....but "many."

    This is a 1st resurrection reference.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.




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  13. #28
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    But episkopos, Peter doesn't seem to be referring to a bodily resurrection when he says judgment must begin at the house of God. He's speaking of that judgment happening now, in the present, as the result of following Christ.

    But if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but glorify God that you bear such a name. For it is time for judgment to begin, starting with the house of God. And if it starts with us, what will be the fate of those who are disobedient to the gospel of God?
    1Pet.4:16-17


    Ok, but if the first resurrection is spiritual in nature, everyone who is born again is also blessed. If the first resurrection is when the spiritually dead get saved,

    Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. Jn.5:25

    Then the second resurrection is the bodily one and includes both saved and unsaved.

    Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment. Jn.5:28-29

    Possible?
    Not really. We will all receive for what we have done.

    Look at the 1 Cor. 3 judgment (which is mirrored in 2 Tim 2). This is for rewards after a judgment of fire. This is to reveal who the saints are. Those whose works are burned up are shown to be naked and blind. These are sent into outer darkness. And we are talking about "believers" or "the house of God."

    2 Cor. 5:10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

    Who is the "all" here? Is there a separate judgment for the house of God? Or is it one judgment and the house of God passes first?

    Is the Bema seat judgment 1,000 years before the general GWTJ???

    I believe it is so. In the GWTJ it is the nations being judged (not the house of God). The same goes for the Mat. 25 sheep/goats judgment...that is for the nations not the church.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.




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  14. #29
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    I think your point 3 is the way to go. Jesus coming in the clouds of heaven brings about the first resurrection. Unless we think that natural bodies will be flying up to meet the Lord. Then they would have to die again and be resurrected again...so there are only 2. One before the 1,000 years the BEMA...and the GWT after that.

    Does that sound reasonable?
    Maybe you didn't understand by post...

    All three of these events I listed happen in succession.

    1) There is a resurrection of those who are in Christ Jesus at the time of His appearing on the Clouds of Heaven:

    Happens after the 6th Seal is opened within the time of: Rev 6:12-17 and is verified to have happened in Rev 7:17... Then:

    2) The Resurrection of ONLY the beheaded who were beheaded during the time of the end, by the Beast for not taking the mark of the Beast, and for having the testimony of Jesus Christ. ONLY people with these criteria are judged worthy to take part in the "1st Resurrection"

    This happens shortly after the Lords PHYSICAL return to earth and ARMAGEDDON in Rev 19:11-21, and specifically at the point of Rev 20:4-6. But before they can be resurrected, their souls must be in heaven with Christ. This happens after the 70th Week ends in Rev 11:13-19 and is SPECIFICALLY shown to have happened in Rev 15:1-4.

    So then we have a harvesting of souls into heaven in front of the throne of God, removed from the headless bodies on the earth. Then a short time later a RESURRECTION of only those souls into new bodies risen from the grave in Rev 20:4-6.

    3) By implication, if there is a 1st resurrection, there is certainly a 2nd. The GWT Judgement of the dead

    This is the third resurrection of the Dead which happens AFTER the GWT Judgement, I.E. AFTER Rev 20:11-15... The souls presented before God in Rev 20:11-15 are not in Bodies yet. They are "THE DEAD", and are not "THE LIVING". After all "SOULS" are judged, the rest of the souls that are judged NOT to enter the Lake of Fire are RESURRECTED on the new earth.

    I admit I may be wrong, but there is no indication in Rev 20:11-15 that states that the dead that are before the throne are in new bodies. Whereas, in Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Here we see physical bodies that tears are wiped away... So between "the DEAD" in Rev 20 to "tears" in Rev 21:4 we have a REAL resurrection that is hidden in the text.

  15. #30
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    Re: The Two Resurrections

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Maybe you didn't understand by post...

    All three of these events I listed happen in succession.

    1) There is a resurrection of those who are in Christ Jesus at the time of His appearing on the Clouds of Heaven:

    Happens after the 6th Seal is opened within the time of: Rev 6:12-17 and is verified to have happened in Rev 7:17... Then:

    2) The Resurrection of ONLY the beheaded who were beheaded during the time of the end, by the Beast for not taking the mark of the Beast, and for having the testimony of Jesus Christ. ONLY people with these criteria are judged worthy to take part in the "1st Resurrection"

    This happens shortly after the Lords PHYSICAL return to earth and ARMAGEDDON in Rev 19:11-21, and specifically at the point of Rev 20:4-6. But before they can be resurrected, their souls must be in heaven with Christ. This happens after the 70th Week ends in Rev 11:13-19 and is SPECIFICALLY shown to have happened in Rev 15:1-4.

    So then we have a harvesting of souls into heaven in front of the throne of God, removed from the headless bodies on the earth. Then a short time later a RESURRECTION of only those souls into new bodies risen from the grave in Rev 20:4-6.

    3) By implication, if there is a 1st resurrection, there is certainly a 2nd. The GWT Judgement of the dead

    This is the third resurrection of the Dead which happens AFTER the GWT Judgement, I.E. AFTER Rev 20:11-15... The souls presented before God in Rev 20:11-15 are not in Bodies yet. They are "THE DEAD", and are not "THE LIVING". After all "SOULS" are judged, the rest of the souls that are judged NOT to enter the Lake of Fire are RESURRECTED on the new earth.

    I admit I may be wrong, but there is no indication in Rev 20:11-15 that states that the dead that are before the throne are in new bodies. Whereas, in Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. Here we see physical bodies that tears are wiped away... So between "the DEAD" in Rev 20 to "tears" in Rev 21:4 we have a REAL resurrection that is hidden in the text.

    what I stated is that your conclusion in point 3 of your post sums it ALL up. What we see upon the return of Christ is a resurrection of the dead in Christ and a catching away of those that are in Christ yet still living at the time of His return. This is all a part of the first resurrection.. It doesn't say anything about ALL the dead being raised up (which is a later event).

    5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    So anything to do with saints or the people of God are for the Bema judgment seat of Christ...and the rest are for the GWT judgment.

    We are not always seeing things in chronological order...rather a zeroing in on certain events in order to describe them. Like a flashback in a movie. But I think it is good to keep it simple...resurrection 1 (for the church)...resurrection 2 (for the world)

    Those that are in Christ pass to a "better" resurrection. One, (the first rez), whereby one rules over the nations in the next age. So this is a "royal" resurrection, as it were. To rule and reign with Christ. But to rule over what/whom? The nations.

    The other general resurrection is to determine who lives and who dies....ie..the book of LIFE. The saints rule over "the saved of the nations" in the next age.

    Rev. 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

    So then those written in the Lamb's book of life rule over those who are written in the book of life.



    There is the royal city of God and the saints...and there are the nations who walk in the light of the city of God.

    Striving to apprehend that for which I have been apprehended in Christ Jesus.




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