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Thread: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

  1. #1
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    Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Several state's attorneys general had filed suit in a California federal court, seeking unspecified damages from fossil fuel companies as the result of global warming. The judge (a Bill Clinton appointee, no less) dismissed the suit with some strong wording:

    The scope of plaintiffs’ theory is breathtaking. It would reach the sale of fossil fuels anywhere in the world, including all past and otherwise lawful sales, where the seller knew that the combustion of fossil fuels contributed to the phenomenon of global warming. While these actions are brought against the first, second, fourth, sixth and ninth largest producers of fossil fuels, anyone who supplied fossil fuels with knowledge of the problem would be liable. At one point, counsel seemed to limit liability to those who had promoted allegedly phony science to deny climate change. But at oral argument, plaintiffs’ counsel clarified that any such promotion remained merely a “plus factor.” Their theory rests on the sweeping proposition that otherwise lawful and everyday sales of fossil fuels, combined with an awareness that greenhouse gas emissions lead to increased global temperatures, constitute a public nuisance. . .


    With respect to balancing the social utility against the gravity of the anticipated harm, it is true that carbon dioxide released from fossil fuels has caused (and will continue to cause) global warming. But against that negative, we must weigh this positive: our industrial revolution and the development of our modern world has literally been fueled by oil and coal. Without those fuels, virtually all of our monumental progress would have been impossible. All of us have benefitted. Having reaped the benefit of that historic progress, would it really be fair to now ignore our own responsibility in the use of fossil fuels and place the blame for global warming on those who supplied what we demanded? Is it really fair, in light of those benefits, to say that the sale of fossil fuels was unreasonable? . . .


    In sum, this order accepts the science behind global warming. So do both sides. The dangers raised in the complaints are very real. But those dangers are worldwide. Their causes are worldwide. The benefits of fossil fuels are worldwide. The problem deserves a solution on a more vast scale than can be supplied by a district judge or jury in a public nuisance case.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  2. #2
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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Wow, critical thinking in California. There's hope!
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    It's hard to take anyone seriously when they preach a message of devastation and destruction because of burning fossil fuels if they don't live like the Amish. You know, the sea levels will rise and flood out the poor brown ones in some third world nation but I gotta get to work so I can pay for my flights abroad where I burn up even more fossil fuels and make it worse for everybody. It's warm today, I'm going to turn on the air conditioner even though the carbon emissions will make it even warmer tomorrow.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Is that strong wording? Anyway, I agree with the judge here. This is not something a lawsuit is going to do anything about.
    It is only the cynic who claims “to speak the truth” at all times and in all places to all men in the same way, but who, in fact, displays nothing but a lifeless image of the truth… He dons the halo of the fanatical devotee of truth who can make no allowance for human weaknesses; but, in fact, he is destroying the living truth between men. He wounds shame, desecrates mystery, breaks confidence, betrays the community in which he lives, and laughs arrogantly at the devastation he has wrought and at the human weakness which “cannot bear the truth”. Dietrich Bonhoeffer, in Ethics.


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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Environmentalists plug in their electric cars thinking the power comes from the mother nature gods.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  6. #6

    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Environmentalists plug in their electric cars thinking the power comes from the mother nature gods.
    yeah, all those environmentalist idiots.

    some people.jpg

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    yeah, all those environmentalist idiots.

    That's great if you live in Texas or until you have to dispose of all the toxic chemicals in batteries. But hey, if you want to spend $25,000.00 to charge your overpriced tiny electric car, that's a choice I would rather not have imposed on me.

    But you know as well as I do this is not a mainstream solution, it's more like a one-off. The majority of electric car owners plug into a socket that gets power from coal.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  8. #8

    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    That's great if you live in Texas or until you have to dispose of all the toxic chemicals in batteries. But hey, if you want to spend $25,000.00 to charge your overpriced tiny electric car, that's a choice I would rather not have imposed on me.

    But you know as well as I do this is not a mainstream solution, it's more like a one-off. The majority of electric car owners plug into a socket that gets power from coal.
    I just assumed we were talking about California environmentalist idiots, where coal makes up less than 1% of electricity production & there are really great areas for solar energy production. More broadly in the US Coal is about ~30% of electricity production. It really depends on where you live, If you live in West Virginia your electric car probably is essentially coal powered if you just plug it in. If you live in Washington state or Oregon for your plug in could be said to be mostly hydro-powered. In New Hampshire you could claim to have a nuclear powered Tesla. I wouldn't say that its a one off solution so much as its not a useful solution everywhere, which isn't especially unusual as far as solutions are concerned. Its a big country with many differences in power production from state to state, Just because it may be foolish in your town doesn't mean that it is foolish for everyone because they may have options or infrastructure that you do not have access to. At my company we are considering renewable to power some of our compute infrastructure, something that would have been foolish a few years ago and would still be be foolish at some of our locations but could save us significant amounts of money at others so it is now something we are putting some serious consideration into. I'm just saying that no everyone that is making an attempt a environmental responsibility in their personal or business lives is failing to think it through and/or simply pawning it off to coal. As far as batteries are concerned, that is one if not the major area of work for renewable energy no one that is serious about renewable is failing to take that into account. So yeah it may be dumb for you to do it, maybe you've done our research and you know it has no financial or environmental utility for you...but your situation isn't THE situation. The tech keeps moving forward man.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I just assumed we were talking about California environmentalist idiots, where coal makes up less than 1% of electricity production & there are really great areas for solar energy production. More broadly in the US Coal is about ~30% of electricity production. It really depends on where you live, If you live in West Virginia your electric car probably is essentially coal powered if you just plug it in. If you live in Washington state or Oregon for your plug in could be said to be mostly hydro-powered. In New Hampshire you could claim to have a nuclear powered Tesla. I wouldn't say that its a one off solution so much as its not a useful solution everywhere, which isn't especially unusual as far as solutions are concerned. Its a big country with many differences in power production from state to state, Just because it may be foolish in your town doesn't mean that it is foolish for everyone because they may have options or infrastructure that you do not have access to. At my company we are considering renewable to power some of our compute infrastructure, something that would have been foolish a few years ago and would still be be foolish at some of our locations but could save us significant amounts of money at others so it is now something we are putting some serious consideration into. I'm just saying that no everyone that is making an attempt a environmental responsibility in their personal or business lives is failing to think it through and/or simply pawning it off to coal. As far as batteries are concerned, that is one if not the major area of work for renewable energy no one that is serious about renewable is failing to take that into account. So yeah it may be dumb for you to do it, maybe you've done our research and you know it has no financial or environmental utility for you...but your situation isn't THE situation. The tech keeps moving forward man.
    Technology keeps advancing but for now solar panels have a huge environmental cost to build, as to batteries. For city use it probably makes more sense to put limits on the size of vehicles that enter the city other than on designated routes for commercial use. When so many cars have one occupant it's really silly to burn the fuel to carry that one occupant in a huge great metal box. If the driver weighs 250lb and the vehicle weighs 2500lb then 90% of the fuel is being used to carry the metal box. What if we made very small and light cars that might only carry one or two people and a briefcase or two but maybe weighed 750lb, maybe less still? You'd cut fuel use in half, you'd free up a load of parking, you could fit more vehicles on the road, and so on. You might want regulations so that you didn't end up dealing with collisions between one man in his little bubble car and another in his Dodge Ram 2500 but if climate change is anywhere near as much of a threat as we're told it is that's a small price to pay.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I just assumed we were talking about California environmentalist idiots, where coal makes up less than 1% of electricity production & there are really great areas for solar energy production. More broadly in the US Coal is about ~30% of electricity production. It really depends on where you live, If you live in West Virginia your electric car probably is essentially coal powered if you just plug it in. If you live in Washington state or Oregon for your plug in could be said to be mostly hydro-powered. In New Hampshire you could claim to have a nuclear powered Tesla. I wouldn't say that its a one off solution so much as its not a useful solution everywhere, which isn't especially unusual as far as solutions are concerned. Its a big country with many differences in power production from state to state, Just because it may be foolish in your town doesn't mean that it is foolish for everyone because they may have options or infrastructure that you do not have access to. At my company we are considering renewable to power some of our compute infrastructure, something that would have been foolish a few years ago and would still be be foolish at some of our locations but could save us significant amounts of money at others so it is now something we are putting some serious consideration into. I'm just saying that no everyone that is making an attempt a environmental responsibility in their personal or business lives is failing to think it through and/or simply pawning it off to coal. As far as batteries are concerned, that is one if not the major area of work for renewable energy no one that is serious about renewable is failing to take that into account. So yeah it may be dumb for you to do it, maybe you've done our research and you know it has no financial or environmental utility for you...but your situation isn't THE situation. The tech keeps moving forward man.
    Unfortunately CA steals a lot of our hydro power, which raises our rates - also the windmills in the Palouse and central WA are raising our rates for no reason. We have enough hydro here if CA would leave their grubby hands off of it. Washington should make CA pay the higher rates.

    I’m all for tech if it’s done in the private sector. It’s the only way tech is done right.

    FYI, I have a 50 watt panel for my greenhouse. It runs the fans and shutters and provides some heat in the winter. I had to build my own MOSFET controller though - the ones you buy are too inefficient.

    But until technology provides more efficiency at a reasonable cost, I’m using carbon fuels for my transportation
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  11. #11

    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Unfortunately CA steals a lot of our hydro power, which raises our rates - also the windmills in the Palouse and central WA are raising our rates for no reason. We have enough hydro here if CA would leave their grubby hands off of it. Washington should make CA pay the higher rates.

    I’m all for tech if it’s done in the private sector. It’s the only way tech is done right.

    FYI, I have a 50 watt panel for my greenhouse. It runs the fans and shutters and provides some heat in the winter. I had to build my own MOSFET controller though - the ones you buy are too inefficient.

    But until technology provides more efficiency at a reasonable cost, I’m using carbon fuels for my transportation
    I was attempting to address the idea that environmentalists are not thinking through their implementations or simply offloading the carbon emissions (which also isn't always without its advantages/efficiencies). I don't know how caught up you are on what is available today and deployment scenarios, but I've been surprised by what is possible especially at scale while working on this project. Like I said it may be too expensive or too inefficient for your purposes, but there are plenty of applications for what is available in 2018 especially if you have the luxury long term planning. I'm not trying to sell you an electric car,I just wanted to provide a different perspective on what is possible for some people.


    If you've designed a MOSFET based controller that is significantly more efficient than anything we could purchase I would be very interested in the schematic, we definitely don't shy away from manufacturing our own tools & equipment, So if you feel comfortable with sharing, I'll gladly share any testing data if we build a prototype. Who knows we might be able to work something out and all make some money private sector style.

  12. #12

    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonajero View Post
    Technology keeps advancing but for now solar panels have a huge environmental cost to build, as to batteries. For city use it probably makes more sense to put limits on the size of vehicles that enter the city other than on designated routes for commercial use. When so many cars have one occupant it's really silly to burn the fuel to carry that one occupant in a huge great metal box. If the driver weighs 250lb and the vehicle weighs 2500lb then 90% of the fuel is being used to carry the metal box. What if we made very small and light cars that might only carry one or two people and a briefcase or two but maybe weighed 750lb, maybe less still? You'd cut fuel use in half, you'd free up a load of parking, you could fit more vehicles on the road, and so on. You might want regulations so that you didn't end up dealing with collisions between one man in his little bubble car and another in his Dodge Ram 2500 but if climate change is anywhere near as much of a threat as we're told it is that's a small price to pay.
    Hey while we are imagining things, I imagine a future where personal vehicle ownership could be rare as transportation is handled by autonomous vehicles at your beck and call. At least I think that could be cool. I'm not sure if everything you've said/suggested here adds up but hey it might. I certainly don't have a problem with doing feasibility studies of these ideas, again if its a solution it probably isn't a panacea but maybe it works in some areas.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    I was attempting to address the idea that environmentalists are not thinking through their implementations or simply offloading the carbon emissions (which also isn't always without its advantages/efficiencies). I don't know how caught up you are on what is available today and deployment scenarios, but I've been surprised by what is possible especially at scale while working on this project. Like I said it may be too expensive or too inefficient for your purposes, but there are plenty of applications for what is available in 2018 especially if you have the luxury long term planning. I'm not trying to sell you an electric car,I just wanted to provide a different perspective on what is possible for some people.


    If you've designed a MOSFET based controller that is significantly more efficient than anything we could purchase I would be very interested in the schematic, we definitely don't shy away from manufacturing our own tools & equipment, So if you feel comfortable with sharing, I'll gladly share any testing data if we build a prototype. Who knows we might be able to work something out and all make some money private sector style.
    Sorry, I can’t - it’s a shared design with an employee of of my customers who builds a product that leeches energy from collapsing sine waves (flyback effect). Also, my system is not running at 60Hz.

    50 Watts isn’t much power, so I need to squeeze as much out of it as possible.

    I am all for renewable power - maybe with the existing tariff on Chinese PV products, existing companies in the US can be more free to innovate.

    Check out “Solar Roadways” when you get a chance. It’s a cool idea, but the major roadblock is converting DC to AC to transform it to a high enough voltage for efficient transmission over distance. Converting it to AC (usually via a generator or inverter) and going through a transformer is really inefficient. This is the real issue with solar power beyond a local application.

    There are some public schematics available on the internet that use MOSFET or IGBT that rival more expensive devices but are much cheaper for a DYI
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    Hey while we are imagining things, I imagine a future where personal vehicle ownership could be rare as transportation is handled by autonomous vehicles at your beck and call. At least I think that could be cool. I'm not sure if everything you've said/suggested here adds up but hey it might. I certainly don't have a problem with doing feasibility studies of these ideas, again if its a solution it probably isn't a panacea but maybe it works in some areas.
    Well heck.....

    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Climate lawsuit thrown out of court

    Quote Originally Posted by BraveUlysesses View Post
    yeah, all those environmentalist idiots.
    Renewable resources at present can only supply a tiny fraction of society's energy needs. Unless you're comfy about going back to the stone age, this is where we are.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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