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Thread: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

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    What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    So I want to discuss the job or function of people who are "SAVED" once they are (with the Lord), I.E. Literally with Him. I hold a Pre-Millennium perspective, so this post is within that view frame...

    Lets keep this primarily pointed at those who are "washed from our sins in His blood" from the time of Jesus ministry on the Cross until now...

    I have found these verses that I believe relate to the raptured CHURCH and their function at different times (Pre-Millennium, Armageddon, Millennium, NHNE) after they are given their eternal bodies.

    CHURCH:

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it [NEW JERUSALEM]; and his servants shall serve him:

    ELDERS BEFORE THE THRONE: (maybe a representation of the Church because they are Redeemed by the Blood)

    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


    ARMAGEDON

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    If you can find more, please post them...

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    So I want to discuss the job or function of people who are "SAVED" once they are (with the Lord), I.E. Literally with Him. I hold a Pre-Millennium perspective, so this post is within that view frame...

    Lets keep this primarily pointed at those who are "washed from our sins in His blood" from the time of Jesus ministry on the Cross until now...

    I have found these verses that I believe relate to the raptured CHURCH and their function at different times (Pre-Millennium, Armageddon, Millennium, NHNE) after they are given their eternal bodies.

    CHURCH:

    Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood, 6 And hath made us kings and priests unto God and his Father; to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

    Rev 7:14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them. 16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat. 17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.


    Rev 22:3 And there shall be no more curse: but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it [NEW JERUSALEM]; and his servants shall serve him:

    ELDERS BEFORE THE THRONE: (maybe a representation of the Church because they are Redeemed by the Blood)

    Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints. 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.


    ARMAGEDON

    Rev 19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.


    If you can find more, please post them...

    You pose an interesting question. There are three duties shown from your proffered verses.
    1. That we wage war
    2. That we reign as co-kings with Christ over cities
    3. That we serve Him in His Temple

    The road to each is worth a book but I will try to be brief. So instead of dealing with each point at first, I will lay forth the general picture.

    In Genesis 1:26-28 the purpose of man is set forth. He was to be in the image and likeness of God, and he was to rule the earth, sea and sky and their contents. Man fell and needed several additional processes to be restored back to this high standing. The main ones are;
    1. Somebody innocent and eternal had to be a propitiation for the sin and sins of men. Innocent because a guilty man can only die for his own sins, and eternal so that a price paid in time could be applied to all men from the first to the last over a long period.
    2. The man would have to go through a transforming work to change his soul from Self- and Satan-centeredness to God-centeredness
    3. The man would have to undergo a rigorous training to be qualified to rule in God's Kingdom without bringing it into disrepute
    4. The man would have to be relieved of his corrupt flesh and given a new incorruptible flesh
    5. The man would have to know his God intimately and love Him to the exclusion of all else

    For this recovery God sets six days of one thousand years each, and within these six days of one thousand years, the limit for each man to reach the above goals is the individual life span of that man. Just as Israel broke Covenant with God and needed another two thousand years, or two days (Hos.6:2) to be fully restored, so the Christian, if he/she does not co-operate with God during their life time by carrying their cross daily, denying themselves, submitting to the training and building an intimate relationship with God and His Christ, will complete their training in the following "day", or one thousand years - commonly called "the Millennium". And just as Israel was chastised during this time, so the Christian who is slothful and uncooperative will be chastised during the Millennium, but with the goal of reaching the maturity that he/she should have reached in their life time. Thus, many Parables on the Kingdom of Heaven (the Millennium) show the slothful servants of the Lord suffering loss when the Lord returns.

    Thus, for the diligent, self-denying, cross-carrying and mature Christian, the duties following the resurrection are:
    1. He returns from the sky after rapture and judgement at the Bema (the judgment Seat of Christ in the air) as part of Christ's army to fight the Beast and his army. This is found in Revelation 19
    2. He is set up as co-king over a city or cities (Lk.19:17-19) to rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.2:26-27)
    3. He is set as Priest of Christ to bring Christ to men and men to Christ. You will note that the diligent servant not only keeps his talent that he had on earth during his lifetime, but gets to get the talents of the slothful servants. The Talents are given to (1) Build the Church, and (2) bring God to men and men to God - the priestly duty of every Christian

    Now, the text from Revelation 7, and especially verse 14 above is very informative. It reads;

    "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    First, although our eminent translators of the King James decided not to use the article (in CAPITALS above), it is generally accepted from the rest of the textual evidence that the article "THE" should be there, and is even used in the New King James. This changes the verse remarkably. It is no longer men and women who came through tribulation - a road given to ALL Christians to travel, but a specific group of people who will suffer the 3½ year Great Tribulation on earth. To confirm this we see that they went through exceptional trials of hunger, thirst, sunburn (indicating that they had no shelter), heat (as separate from the sun's heat) and had continuous tears. Added to this, unlike the 144,000 from Israel in the preceding verses 1-8, these men and women did a unique thing. They applied the blood of Jesus to wash their "dirty linen". Only dirty things need to be washed, and in Parable, clothes are one's works (Rev.19:8 etc.).

    Now, if the Church is "not appointed to God's wrath" (in the context of the Great Tribulation - 1st Thess.5:9), how come these people with "dirty works", but who have called on the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, have gone through THE Great Tribulation. WHY? The answer is found in Matthew Chapter 13. In Matthew Chapter 13 the end of the age is said to be a harvest (v.39). This is confirmed in Revelation 14:15-19. Now we know from both the Bible AND nature, that the harvest is divided in TIME into THREE. (1) The Firstfruits who are ripe first and which the farmer has long waited for. These firstfruits usually go into the farmer's house to be enjoyed by him and his family. (2) The General harvest. This takes place when the crop has stayed on the earth for a while longer to ripen. They need an extra time of heat and drought to become ripe. (3) The Gleanings. These are ripe crops that have been left by the harvesters and God decrees that they are for the poor. The group we want to look at is group number (2) - those LEFT on the earth because they need extra heat and dryness to ripen.

    Just before the great Tribulation, how long nobody knows, God will instruct His angels to gather the ripe Christians. These are raptured to the sky and are judged at the Bema. Because they faced the heat and dryness in their lifetimes willingly, they are REWARDED by (i) being in Christ's Army (Rev.19), (ii) being made co-kings with Christ to rule the nations in the Millennium, and (iii) being allowed into the Wedding Feast of Jesus. (Note, I, and the Greek text, says "Wedding FEAST" - not the actual marriage). But in the Parables of the Kingdom we know that many, even the bulk of Christianity, will not be mature or ripe for the harvest. They then must face the "heat" and the "hunger" and the "thirst" of the Great Tribulation in order to ripen in a flat 3½ year Great Tribulation. (Wheat, which depicts Christianity, needs a hot dry spell just before harvest.)

    Now, what shall become of these who needed the Great Tribulation to mature? They are now mature, they have washed their "dirty works" in the blood of Jesus, but are they ELIGIBLE to be REWARDED? Their maturity, their ripeness, was forced on them. They did not deny themselves, carry their crosses daily, nor did they nurture an intimate relationship with Jesus VOLUNTARILY. It was applied forcibly by the burning heat and dryness of the 3½ year Great Tribulation. So what is left to them? TO BE SERVANTS in the building of the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed His Church for the first time in Matthew 16, He said that the Gates of HADES would not prevail against this effort of building. Hades is the place of the souls of dead men waiting for resurrection. So it is clear that human death is the greatest hindrance to building the Church. Why? 1st Corinthians 6:15 answers;

    "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."

    In death, our BODIES are corrupted and return to the elements. So death damages and hinders the building of the Church. The Church can only be properly built AFTER RESURRECTION! So the main part of the building of the Church takes place during the Millennium when death has been defeated by the resurrection of the Christians. And so, during the Millennium, those who are ripe and mature, but not rewarded, "may serve in His TEMPLE (the Church) day and night"! They are not co-kings with Christ. They miss the Wedding Feast. They are have not yet been recovered to their high calling to be in God's image and likeness, and rule the earth.

    We end on a sad note. Millions of Christians, like those who must pass through the Great Tribulation, did not VOLUNTARILY submit to God's transforming discipline. But they die BEFORE the Great Tribulation. There is no forced "ripening" process for them. They must face, like Israel did, a time of discipline and chastisement. Well has scripture said of these SERVANTS in Matthew 24:48-51;

    48 "But and if THAT evil servant shall say in his heart, MY lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


    Notice the grammar and the REPEATED reference to;
    • "THAT servant". Which one? The one of the verses before who had done so well for a time but turned to evil.
    • "MY Lord". The Servant is a Christian. Satan is Lord of this world and the Jews refuse His Lordship. It must be a Christian
    • "The Lord OF THAT SERVANT" confirms this. The nations and Israel refuse the Lordship of Christ. But a Christian has, and owns, Jesus as Lord

    There is only one devastating understanding of this passage. The Christian who is not transformed, not holy, not obedient, not putting others first, not looking for Christ's coming with dear affection, IS CHASTISED DURING THE MILLENNIUM! That is, weeping, wailing, heartbreak as he/she is separated from Christ for a thousand years AND lives in disgrace and pain!

  3. #3
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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You pose an interesting question. There are three duties shown from your proffered verses.
    1. That we wage war
    2. That we reign as co-kings with Christ over cities
    3. That we serve Him in His Temple

    The road to each is worth a book but I will try to be brief. So instead of dealing with each point at first, I will lay forth the general picture.

    In Genesis 1:26-28 the purpose of man is set forth. He was to be in the image and likeness of God, and he was to rule the earth, sea and sky and their contents. Man fell and needed several additional processes to be restored back to this high standing. The main ones are;
    1. Somebody innocent and eternal had to be a propitiation for the sin and sins of men. Innocent because a guilty man can only die for his own sins, and eternal so that a price paid in time could be applied to all men from the first to the last over a long period.
    2. The man would have to go through a transforming work to change his soul from Self- and Satan-centeredness to God-centeredness
    3. The man would have to undergo a rigorous training to be qualified to rule in God's Kingdom without bringing it into disrepute
    4. The man would have to be relieved of his corrupt flesh and given a new incorruptible flesh
    5. The man would have to know his God intimately and love Him to the exclusion of all else

    For this recovery God sets six days of one thousand years each, and within these six days of one thousand years, the limit for each man to reach the above goals is the individual life span of that man. Just as Israel broke Covenant with God and needed another two thousand years, or two days (Hos.6:2) to be fully restored, so the Christian, if he/she does not co-operate with God during their life time by carrying their cross daily, denying themselves, submitting to the training and building an intimate relationship with God and His Christ, will complete their training in the following "day", or one thousand years - commonly called "the Millennium". And just as Israel was chastised during this time, so the Christian who is slothful and uncooperative will be chastised during the Millennium, but with the goal of reaching the maturity that he/she should have reached in their life time. Thus, many Parables on the Kingdom of Heaven (the Millennium) show the slothful servants of the Lord suffering loss when the Lord returns.

    Thus, for the diligent, self-denying, cross-carrying and mature Christian, the duties following the resurrection are:
    1. He returns from the sky after rapture and judgement at the Bema (the judgment Seat of Christ in the air) as part of Christ's army to fight the Beast and his army. This is found in Revelation 19
    2. He is set up as co-king over a city or cities (Lk.19:17-19) to rule the nations with a rod of iron (Rev.2:26-27)
    3. He is set as Priest of Christ to bring Christ to men and men to Christ. You will note that the diligent servant not only keeps his talent that he had on earth during his lifetime, but gets to get the talents of the slothful servants. The Talents are given to (1) Build the Church, and (2) bring God to men and men to God - the priestly duty of every Christian

    Now, the text from Revelation 7, and especially verse 14 above is very informative. It reads;

    "And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of THE great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

    First, although our eminent translators of the King James decided not to use the article (in CAPITALS above), it is generally accepted from the rest of the textual evidence that the article "THE" should be there, and is even used in the New King James. This changes the verse remarkably. It is no longer men and women who came through tribulation - a road given to ALL Christians to travel, but a specific group of people who will suffer the 3½ year Great Tribulation on earth. To confirm this we see that they went through exceptional trials of hunger, thirst, sunburn (indicating that they had no shelter), heat (as separate from the sun's heat) and had continuous tears. Added to this, unlike the 144,000 from Israel in the preceding verses 1-8, these men and women did a unique thing. They applied the blood of Jesus to wash their "dirty linen". Only dirty things need to be washed, and in Parable, clothes are one's works (Rev.19:8 etc.).

    Now, if the Church is "not appointed to God's wrath" (in the context of the Great Tribulation - 1st Thess.5:9), how come these people with "dirty works", but who have called on the cleansing power of the blood of Jesus, have gone through THE Great Tribulation. WHY? The answer is found in Matthew Chapter 13. In Matthew Chapter 13 the end of the age is said to be a harvest (v.39). This is confirmed in Revelation 14:15-19. Now we know from both the Bible AND nature, that the harvest is divided in TIME into THREE. (1) The Firstfruits who are ripe first and which the farmer has long waited for. These firstfruits usually go into the farmer's house to be enjoyed by him and his family. (2) The General harvest. This takes place when the crop has stayed on the earth for a while longer to ripen. They need an extra time of heat and drought to become ripe. (3) The Gleanings. These are ripe crops that have been left by the harvesters and God decrees that they are for the poor. The group we want to look at is group number (2) - those LEFT on the earth because they need extra heat and dryness to ripen.

    Just before the great Tribulation, how long nobody knows, God will instruct His angels to gather the ripe Christians. These are raptured to the sky and are judged at the Bema. Because they faced the heat and dryness in their lifetimes willingly, they are REWARDED by (i) being in Christ's Army (Rev.19), (ii) being made co-kings with Christ to rule the nations in the Millennium, and (iii) being allowed into the Wedding Feast of Jesus. (Note, I, and the Greek text, says "Wedding FEAST" - not the actual marriage). But in the Parables of the Kingdom we know that many, even the bulk of Christianity, will not be mature or ripe for the harvest. They then must face the "heat" and the "hunger" and the "thirst" of the Great Tribulation in order to ripen in a flat 3½ year Great Tribulation. (Wheat, which depicts Christianity, needs a hot dry spell just before harvest.)

    Now, what shall become of these who needed the Great Tribulation to mature? They are now mature, they have washed their "dirty works" in the blood of Jesus, but are they ELIGIBLE to be REWARDED? Their maturity, their ripeness, was forced on them. They did not deny themselves, carry their crosses daily, nor did they nurture an intimate relationship with Jesus VOLUNTARILY. It was applied forcibly by the burning heat and dryness of the 3½ year Great Tribulation. So what is left to them? TO BE SERVANTS in the building of the Church. When our Lord Jesus revealed His Church for the first time in Matthew 16, He said that the Gates of HADES would not prevail against this effort of building. Hades is the place of the souls of dead men waiting for resurrection. So it is clear that human death is the greatest hindrance to building the Church. Why? 1st Corinthians 6:15 answers;

    "Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid."

    In death, our BODIES are corrupted and return to the elements. So death damages and hinders the building of the Church. The Church can only be properly built AFTER RESURRECTION! So the main part of the building of the Church takes place during the Millennium when death has been defeated by the resurrection of the Christians. And so, during the Millennium, those who are ripe and mature, but not rewarded, "may serve in His TEMPLE (the Church) day and night"! They are not co-kings with Christ. They miss the Wedding Feast. They are have not yet been recovered to their high calling to be in God's image and likeness, and rule the earth.

    We end on a sad note. Millions of Christians, like those who must pass through the Great Tribulation, did not VOLUNTARILY submit to God's transforming discipline. But they die BEFORE the Great Tribulation. There is no forced "ripening" process for them. They must face, like Israel did, a time of discipline and chastisement. Well has scripture said of these SERVANTS in Matthew 24:48-51;

    48 "But and if THAT evil servant shall say in his heart, MY lord delayeth his coming;
    49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
    50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
    51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."


    Notice the grammar and the REPEATED reference to;
    • "THAT servant". Which one? The one of the verses before who had done so well for a time but turned to evil.
    • "MY Lord". The Servant is a Christian. Satan is Lord of this world and the Jews refuse His Lordship. It must be a Christian
    • "The Lord OF THAT SERVANT" confirms this. The nations and Israel refuse the Lordship of Christ. But a Christian has, and owns, Jesus as Lord

    There is only one devastating understanding of this passage. The Christian who is not transformed, not holy, not obedient, not putting others first, not looking for Christ's coming with dear affection, IS CHASTISED DURING THE MILLENNIUM! That is, weeping, wailing, heartbreak as he/she is separated from Christ for a thousand years AND lives in disgrace and pain!
    Thanks for tackling this thread, Walls.

    It looks like we agree on the jobs of the Saved ones…

    I actually agree that the word “THE” should stay in the text in Rev 7 regarding the Great Tribulation. I see it as a Named Event (thus the definite article), not necessarily a specific time period, however it certainly has a length… The “LENGTH” part is where we diverge. You see the named event “THE Great Tribulation” as the 1260 days or 3.5 year length. I see the Rev 7 "The Great Tribulation" as the same event in Matt 24, which then means that the worst (Great) Tribulation in all history, "THE event", IS CUT SHORT from 3.5 years down to X months. I dont think it would be allowed to last over a year. This event is also the 4th Seal Opening, and will kill 1/4 of the population of earth. (2 Billion or more people). I would say that this could = "THE Great" Tribulation. Especially if it is directed towards Christians and Jews alone...

    So I am remembering that you are a Pre-trib believer (correct me if I am wrong) but yet you also understand another group will be refined by the fire (as it were)… Then they too will be taken up at the end of the Great tribulation which you believe lasts 3.5 times after the midpoint of the 70th week. Am I correct?

    I diverge from this thought process too… (I don’t prescribe to an anytime “imminent” return of Christ, however I do believe in an imminent return once the season arrives. But first we look for the Season as listed in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.) There is only one Rapture of the Church, and it is laid out in 1 Thess 4, Matt 24, 1 Cor 15. (I believe all of those gatherings are the same event.) Then there is also a gathering of the 144,000, and a separate gathering of “those who keep the commandments (LAW and Prophets - JEWS) and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (JEWS who Believe in Jesus)”. That groups is specifically Children of Israel. (Not Gentiles). So then the 2nd Group is not connected to Rev 7:9-17. It is the First Group – those you would call those that “faced the heat and dryness in their lifetimes willingly”. There is no need to separate those in Rev 7:9-17 from the Church that Christ Raptures in Matt 24, and in 1 Thess 4.

    Let me show in Scripture where I separate the Church from the Jews that Believe in Christ (not from every tribe and nation, but rather ONLY from Israel…)

    Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Versus:

    Rev 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


    As the Church, we are not “under the Law” as the Jews are. What a strange attribute to place on a Christian... But there is a reason for this. These people MUST follow the Law, according to the commandment of God, yet they ALSO believe in Christ Jesus. It rivals the problems that Paul saw in the early Church as Jews tried to figure out how to Live for Christ as a Jew, being told in Scripture to Follow the Law, yet also being told that They are saved by Grace Alone. Watch:

    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question... 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    This issue will once again come up after the Church is gone as the Jews begin to believe on the one they saw in the clouds (It will not be a Secret rapture either...) as their messiah.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    That is why I believe the above verses about those who have 2 important facts attached to them are JEWS ONLY.

    CHURCH – CURRENT: Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



    CHURCH GONE: JEWS: Leviticus 22:31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.

    Now, once Christ takes the Church into heaven, the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and the time of Israel is re-instated… So then all “Believers” are under the Covenant (LAW) as the Jews believe they are now, but in fact, are under Grace if they believe… But then they will be back under the law, and their WORKS will be judged. We know this because WORK will once again become very important for the believers after the Church is gone:

    Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    The only way for these Christian Jews to partake in Christ as part of the Bride after the Church leaves is to be killed while performing WORKS. They will be beheaded for their Faith.

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    And this same group will then be resurrected in the First Resurrection:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Ultimately we both agree, it seems, that the Final outcome of the Church is put together during the millenium, after all the groups are pulled together and reigning and serving our Lord.

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Thanks for tackling this thread, Walls.

    It looks like we agree on the jobs of the Saved ones…

    I actually agree that the word “THE” should stay in the text in Rev 7 regarding the Great Tribulation. I see it as a Named Event (thus the definite article), not necessarily a specific time period, however it certainly has a length… The “LENGTH” part is where we diverge. You see the named event “THE Great Tribulation” as the 1260 days or 3.5 year length. I see the Rev 7 "The Great Tribulation" as the same event in Matt 24, which then means that the worst (Great) Tribulation in all history, "THE event", IS CUT SHORT from 3.5 years down to X months. I dont think it would be allowed to last over a year. This event is also the 4th Seal Opening, and will kill 1/4 of the population of earth. (2 Billion or more people). I would say that this could = "THE Great" Tribulation. Especially if it is directed towards Christians and Jews alone...

    So I am remembering that you are a Pre-trib believer (correct me if I am wrong) but yet you also understand another group will be refined by the fire (as it were)… Then they too will be taken up at the end of the Great tribulation which you believe lasts 3.5 times after the midpoint of the 70th week. Am I correct?

    I diverge from this thought process too… (I don’t prescribe to an anytime “imminent” return of Christ, however I do believe in an imminent return once the season arrives. But first we look for the Season as listed in Matt 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.) There is only one Rapture of the Church, and it is laid out in 1 Thess 4, Matt 24, 1 Cor 15. (I believe all of those gatherings are the same event.) Then there is also a gathering of the 144,000, and a separate gathering of “those who keep the commandments (LAW and Prophets - JEWS) and have the Testimony of Jesus Christ (JEWS who Believe in Jesus)”. That groups is specifically Children of Israel. (Not Gentiles). So then the 2nd Group is not connected to Rev 7:9-17. It is the First Group – those you would call those that “faced the heat and dryness in their lifetimes willingly”. There is no need to separate those in Rev 7:9-17 from the Church that Christ Raptures in Matt 24, and in 1 Thess 4.

    Let me show in Scripture where I separate the Church from the Jews that Believe in Christ (not from every tribe and nation, but rather ONLY from Israel…)

    Rev 7: 9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

    Versus:

    Rev 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    Rev 14: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.


    As the Church, we are not “under the Law” as the Jews are. What a strange attribute to place on a Christian... But there is a reason for this. These people MUST follow the Law, according to the commandment of God, yet they ALSO believe in Christ Jesus. It rivals the problems that Paul saw in the early Church as Jews tried to figure out how to Live for Christ as a Jew, being told in Scripture to Follow the Law, yet also being told that They are saved by Grace Alone. Watch:

    Acts 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question... 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. 6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

    This issue will once again come up after the Church is gone as the Jews begin to believe on the one they saw in the clouds (It will not be a Secret rapture either...) as their messiah.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    That is why I believe the above verses about those who have 2 important facts attached to them are JEWS ONLY.

    CHURCH – CURRENT: Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.



    CHURCH GONE: JEWS: Leviticus 22:31 Therefore shall ye keep my commandments, and do them: I am the Lord.

    Now, once Christ takes the Church into heaven, the time of the Gentiles is fulfilled, and the time of Israel is re-instated… So then all “Believers” are under the Covenant (LAW) as the Jews believe they are now, but in fact, are under Grace if they believe… But then they will be back under the law, and their WORKS will be judged. We know this because WORK will once again become very important for the believers after the Church is gone:

    Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    The only way for these Christian Jews to partake in Christ as part of the Bride after the Church leaves is to be killed while performing WORKS. They will be beheaded for their Faith.

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped. Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. 3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. 4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

    And this same group will then be resurrected in the First Resurrection:

    Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    Ultimately we both agree, it seems, that the Final outcome of the Church is put together during the millenium, after all the groups are pulled together and reigning and serving our Lord.
    Thank you for your thoughtful reply. I will leave off the matter of the length of the great Tribulation except to say that besides Revelation Chapter 12, which has the time of trial as 1260 days, the grand type of the Great Tribulation is that of Elijah's time - 3½ years. But one can't build doctrine on Types. Let's agree to differ. The point is not crucial.

    The dilemma of "those who keep the commandments of God" is easily solved in my opinion. THREE things are at the forefront concerning the great Tribulation. They are;
    1. It is the end of the age and The time of the Gentiles is over. A new government, that of Jesus Christ, is about to be introduced
    2. It is the time of the judgement of the Church. In plain statements and Parables, the Lord RECKONS with His servants when He comes. This I covered in my first posting
    3. It is the time of Israel's recovery.

    So the question is, "what allows a righteous God to revive a nations that still refuses Messiah?" The answer is found in Deuteronomy 30:1-5. In Deuteronomy 28 the blessings and curses of the Law are laid forth by Moses. The end of the curses, which take up the bulk of the Chapter, is the removing of Israel from their Land and their scattering among all nations (28:63-65). Then, Deuteronomy 30:1-5 reads:

    1 "And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
    2 And shalt return unto the LORD thy God, and shalt obey his voice according to all that I command thee this day, thou and thy children, with all thine heart, and with all thy soul;
    3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
    4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
    5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers."


    • The grammar of verse 1 ASSUMES that Israel will fail and be scattered among the nations.
    • Verse 2 sets forth a condition of the recovery of verses 3. It is that Israel would turn to "all that I command you THIS DAY". Now, "this day" Moses was expound in the Law. The phrase "this day" is mentioned (by my count) 17 times in Chapters 28 to 30, and it all has to do with the Law - the "commandments", NOT of Christ, but of God (via Moses).
    • Verses 3-5 promise that this recovery is NOT of New Birth by Faith, BUT the restoration of Israel to their Land. This is confirmed over and over by the prophet especially Zacharias in Luke Chapter 1.

    It is obvious from history, and prophecy not yet fulfilled, that ALL Israel will not turn back. In fact, at the time of the end of the age, according to Daniel, Israel will be involved in their deepest crisis - that of embracing the Beast and allowing him to both occupy, and set up his effigy in, the Holy of Holies of the Temple (2nd Thess.2:4 etc.). So what is God's means to recover Israel. It is, as always, A REMNANT who turn back to Him. This REMNANT is to be found in the Wilderness, under the Judges, throughout Israel's time in their Land especially Elijah's time, during Christ's time and at the end of the age. This is what Romans 9 and 11 report. Just as God would spare Sodom for the sake of a REMNANT of 10, so will He look to a representative group who fulfill His conditions at the end of this age. And so we are to look for a REMNANT of the Tribes of Israel who "keep the commandments of God" at the close of the age.

    And we do not have to look too deeply. We find them in Revelation 7:1-8, sealed so that the mechanisms of the great Tribulation does not hurt them. We find them again Revelation 11 as Two Witnesses warn people in Jerusalem. We find them again in Chapter 12 where, as you have accurately pointed out, they are OPPOSED to the the group who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Again, you accurately discovered them again in Chapter 14:11. It is clear that during the Great Tribulation God has TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS that must pass through the Great Tribulation but that He keeps for His purposes. Those who are believers are to be ripened by heat and dryness, and those who are Israelites must be preserved to fulfill God's conditions for the recovery of Israel.

    Now, lest we are too encouraged with either, or both, of these groups, we must admit that both are just the good end of a deep crisis.
    1. Those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are the CHRISTIANS I spoke of in my first posting. They are NOT the firstfruis. They MUST pass through the Great Tribulation. They are those of Revelation 13:7. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Those of the Church who must pass through the Great Tribulation can be seen here as IMPOTENT. The Beast PREVAILS against them.
    2. Those who "keep the commandments of God" are still REJECTORS of Jesus Messiah! In Deuteronomy 18:18 Moses was clear. When Jesus arrives, Israel is to "HEAR HIM" (Jesus), NOT Moses any more. This is confirmed on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus is present with Moses, but Moses, by the thundering Voice from heaven, is set aside. That is, this Israeli REMNANT STILL REFUSES JESUS. They cling to Moses. They keep the "commandments of God" given "THAT DAY" by Moses. So there can be no talk of this REMNANT being believers. Yet, God has set forth His conditions in Deuteronomy 30:1-5, and the Jewish Remnant fulfill them and Israel is restored.

    Make sense?

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is obvious from history, and prophecy not yet fulfilled, that ALL Israel will not turn back. In fact, at the time of the end of the age, according to Daniel, Israel will be involved in their deepest crisis - that of embracing the Beast and allowing him to both occupy, and set up his effigy in, the Holy of Holies of the Temple (2nd Thess.2:4 etc.). So what is God's means to recover Israel. It is, as always, A REMNANT who turn back to Him. This REMNANT is to be found in the Wilderness, under the Judges, throughout Israel's time in their Land especially Elijah's time, during Christ's time and at the end of the age. This is what Romans 9 and 11 report. Just as God would spare Sodom for the sake of a REMNANT of 10, so will He look to a representative group who fulfill His conditions at the end of this age. And so we are to look for a REMNANT of the Tribes of Israel who "keep the commandments of God" at the close of the age.

    And we do not have to look too deeply. We find them in Revelation 7:1-8, sealed so that the mechanisms of the great Tribulation does not hurt them. We find them again Revelation 11 as Two Witnesses warn people in Jerusalem. We find them again in Chapter 12 where, as you have accurately pointed out, they are OPPOSED to the the group who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ". Again, you accurately discovered them again in Chapter 14:11. It is clear that during the Great Tribulation God has TWO DIFFERENT GROUPS that must pass through the Great Tribulation but that He keeps for His purposes. Those who are believers are to be ripened by heat and dryness, and those who are Israelites must be preserved to fulfill God's conditions for the recovery of Israel.

    Now, lest we are too encouraged with either, or both, of these groups, we must admit that both are just the good end of a deep crisis.
    1. Those who "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" are the CHRISTIANS I spoke of in my first posting. They are NOT the firstfruis. They MUST pass through the Great Tribulation. They are those of Revelation 13:7. "And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations." Those of the Church who must pass through the Great Tribulation can be seen here as IMPOTENT. The Beast PREVAILS against them.
    2. Those who "keep the commandments of God" are still REJECTORS of Jesus Messiah! In Deuteronomy 18:18 Moses was clear. When Jesus arrives, Israel is to "HEAR HIM" (Jesus), NOT Moses any more. This is confirmed on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus is present with Moses, but Moses, by the thundering Voice from heaven, is set aside. That is, this Israeli REMNANT STILL REFUSES JESUS. They cling to Moses. They keep the "commandments of God" given "THAT DAY" by Moses. So there can be no talk of this REMNANT being believers. Yet, God has set forth His conditions in Deuteronomy 30:1-5, and the Jewish Remnant fulfill them and Israel is restored.

    Make sense?
    Great Post. It seems that for the most part we agree that "ALL Israel will not turn back. In fact, at the time of the end of the age, according to Daniel, Israel will be involved in their deepest crisis - that of embracing the Beast and allowing him to both occupy, and set up his effigy in, the Holy of Holies of the Temple (2nd Thess.2:4 etc.)."

    Those who "keep the commandments of God" are still REJECTORS of Jesus Messiah! In Deuteronomy 18:18 Moses was clear. When Jesus arrives, Israel is to "HEAR HIM" (Jesus), NOT Moses any more. This is confirmed on the Mount of Transfiguration. Jesus is present with Moses, but Moses, by the thundering Voice from heaven, is set aside. That is, this Israeli REMNANT STILL REFUSES JESUS. They cling to Moses. They keep the "commandments of God" given "THAT DAY" by Moses. So there can be no talk of this REMNANT being believers. Yet, God has set forth His conditions in Deuteronomy 30:1-5, and the Jewish Remnant fulfill them and Israel is restored.
    I think I have a different view here... I fully agree that God will spare a remnant of the Tribes of Israel as you say, and I agree that that indeed the 144,000 in Rev 7:1-8 are the "PROTECTED" remnant. I also agree that the two witnesses in Rev 11 will probably work with (or possibly minister to and or teach) the 144,000 in some manner, and certainly are on the earth during the same time period. I am also glad to see you also attribute the term 'WOMAN" in Rev 12 to the 144,000, as I do.

    HOWEVER, once we accept that the WOMAN in Rev 12 is the 144,000, we now have an offshoot of that WOMAN called "the remnant of her seed". It is clear, i'm sure, to both of us that if the WOMAN is ISRAEL (As Christ is also physically born of Israel in Rev 12:5), then her remnant would also be "of Israel". This I can see we agree on.

    However to then say "this Israeli REMNANT STILL REFUSES JESUS" floors me, when we see this attributed to the REMNANT...

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    How can the remnant "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" and not be "Saved"? Now, if you are willing to say that there are still more excluded from the Woman and the Remnant that are scattered all over the earth having run an hid from the Man of Sin who sat on the Throne in the Temple of God, then I stay still...

    I guess we need to define what it means to "have the testimony of Jesus". We need to ask ourselves some important questions here:

    1) Can one that has the testimony of Jesus Christ reject Jesus?
    2) What does that testimony get you?
    3) Is there a difference in the law of Grace once the Church has been Saved, which would then direct followers to "keep the commandments of God"?
    4) Why are works such a central part of the Book of Revelation for certain groups, when salvation is not predicated on works according to grace?

    In a nutshell, I believe that the Work on the Cross was for FORGIVENESS OF SINS. Instantly, when Christ was loaded with all the sins of the World on that Cross, every sin from Adam to the last sinner in the Millennium were covered. BUT, "Salvation" comes not SPECIFICALLY through the cross, but through a LAW, which is GRACE, which is activated through Faith when someone BELIEVES on the Son of God, and confesses Him. And then if one does this, they realize that the testimony that they received about Jesus Christ is true. Apparently one of the Elders came to John and spoke to him in heaven saying Rev 19:10 I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. This appears to be a SAVED individual with the testamentary of Jesus Christ who is already in heaven. Why would we consider that one having the testimony of Jesus would not be saved?

    Another way we know that the "remnant of the woman's seed" is "saved" is this bit here:

    In Rev 14:1-5 we see the WOMAN "saved" as they are redeemed from he earth (Physically like a rapture) into heaven and are standing with Christ on the heavenly mountain of the Lord, AFTER THE 7th Trumpet. The "REMNANT of the seed of Israel" will still be on the earth. They will have ample opportunity to accept the TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST through the angel that proclaims this testimony to all the earth in Rev 14:6-7. If they receive it, they will now "have the testimony." But this set of verses is speaking DIRECTLY TO THE "REMNANT OF HER SEED"!

    Rev 14:8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus. 13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

    The line in Rev 14:12 "they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus" is a direct link to Rev 12:17 " the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ". This clearly shows that a specific remnant of "those who keep the commandments" of the LAW (JEWS), are saved through Faith in Jesus Christ.

    OH NO!!! If these Jews are now saved by GRACE through FAITH IN JESUS, then wouldn't this apply? 1 Thess 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. 9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him. ABSOLUTELY! And no problem, we will continue in Rev 14:

    Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle. 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe. 16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

    NOW, I have always understood these to be DEAD, having been decapitated by the Son of perdition, as indicated in the following:

    Rev 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. AND then add this to the mix: Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    So what I see is the Church is RAPTURED first, then the Woman is REDEEMED from the earth later (around the same time as the two witnesses are "taken up"), and shortly after the Remnant of Her Seed are REAPED from he earth as souls.

    1) RAPTURE - Church only
    2) REDEEMED - Woman only
    3) REAPED - Remnant of the Woman's Seed only.

    There are 3 groups that are "SAVED".

    The Church must HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST (Rom 10:9 confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead) The Woman must be physically sealed and chosen (Rev 7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.) The remnant must reject the mark of the Beast and HAVE THE TESTIMONY of Jesus Christ to qualify as one who will be reaped from the earth (Rev 20:4 I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years)

    So then we see this fulfilled: Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

    Called = Church
    Chosen = Woman
    Faithful (unto death) = Remnant

    These together make up the BRIDE OF CHRIST who marry Christ in heaven before the Return on White horses...

    Rev 19:6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.

    I am sorry I continue to rant about this. I see this so clearly,, and it lines up with every end times prophecy I have ever found... God has appointed a Spirit of Understanding to His servant, and here is to wishing wish others could see as he does.

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Great Post. It seems that for the most part we agree that "ALL Israel will not turn back. In fact, at the time of the end of the age, according to Daniel, Israel will be involved in their deepest crisis - that of embracing the Beast and allowing him to both occupy, and set up his effigy in, the Holy of Holies of the Temple (2nd Thess.2:4 etc.)."



    I think I have a different view here... I fully agree that God will spare a remnant of the Tribes of Israel as you say, and I agree that that indeed the 144,000 in Rev 7:1-8 are the "PROTECTED" remnant. I also agree that the two witnesses in Rev 11 will probably work with (or possibly minister to and or teach) the 144,000 in some manner, and certainly are on the earth during the same time period. I am also glad to see you also attribute the term 'WOMAN" in Rev 12 to the 144,000, as I do.

    HOWEVER, once we accept that the WOMAN in Rev 12 is the 144,000, we now have an offshoot of that WOMAN called "the remnant of her seed". It is clear, i'm sure, to both of us that if the WOMAN is ISRAEL (As Christ is also physically born of Israel in Rev 12:5), then her remnant would also be "of Israel". This I can see we agree on.

    However to then say "this Israeli REMNANT STILL REFUSES JESUS" floors me, when we see this attributed to the REMNANT...

    Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

    ...
    OK. For me it is not ranting. It is a well documented argument. I wish others would refer to scripture in their arguments like you do. It is most refreshing. Here is my understanding of Revelation 12:17. Since the Holy Spirit is a Master of Economy and Elegance in His language (otherwise the Bible would ten times bigger), we must at all time apply the rules of grammar. The verses, economically written is; "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Now, I will state the same verse with in-elegant and cumbersome grammar WITH WHAT IS IMPLIED by the grammar, BUT WITHOUT CHANGING ITS SENSE:

    "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMAINDER of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and the REMAINDER of her seed WHICH have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Thus, the Woman has, in Total, THREE OFFSPRING;
    1. The Man-Child which the context says are Overcomers (v.11) and which are caught away to the sky before the Dragon can hurt them
    2. Those which REMAIN on earth and keep the commandments of God (not Christ) - the Jewish Remnant predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5
    3. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - the Christians who are defeated

    These THREE are found throughout scripture, but especially in Revelation. The diligent Overcoming Christians, the slothful defeated Christians and the Jewish Remnant which turns back to the Law of Moses as they did in Elijah's time. If this be the case, then all is clear. The Jewish Remnant, predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5, return to, and keep, what Moses was expounding "that day" - the Law.

    We can apply the implied grammar again in Revelation 14:12. Elegantly written it is; "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." For clarity by adding what is implied it reads; "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and (here are they that have) the faith of Jesus." Here is an example. The school's sportsmen set off in a big bus. In the front of the bus were the Rugby Team. In the back of the bus were the remaining sportsmen who play hockey and who play soccer. It is clear that there are THREE, each with their own standing.

    It's bed-time (00:50 here), but I will, if it becomes necessary, give my arguments as to who the Woman is. Because of the various proofs it is quite a long explanation.

    Good night and God bless.

  7. #7
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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    OK. For me it is not ranting. It is a well documented argument. I wish others would refer to scripture in their arguments like you do. It is most refreshing. Here is my understanding of Revelation 12:17. Since the Holy Spirit is a Master of Economy and Elegance in His language (otherwise the Bible would ten times bigger), we must at all time apply the rules of grammar. The verses, economically written is; "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Now, I will state the same verse with in-elegant and cumbersome grammar WITH WHAT IS IMPLIED by the grammar, BUT WITHOUT CHANGING ITS SENSE:

    "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the REMAINDER of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and the REMAINDER of her seed WHICH have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Thus, the Woman has, in Total, THREE OFFSPRING;
    1. The Man-Child which the context says are Overcomers (v.11) and which are caught away to the sky before the Dragon can hurt them
    2. Those which REMAIN on earth and keep the commandments of God (not Christ) - the Jewish Remnant predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5
    3. Those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ - the Christians who are defeated

    These THREE are found throughout scripture, but especially in Revelation. The diligent Overcoming Christians, the slothful defeated Christians and the Jewish Remnant which turns back to the Law of Moses as they did in Elijah's time. If this be the case, then all is clear. The Jewish Remnant, predicted in Deuteronomy 30:1-5, return to, and keep, what Moses was expounding "that day" - the Law.

    We can apply the implied grammar again in Revelation 14:12. Elegantly written it is; "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." For clarity by adding what is implied it reads; "Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and (here are they that have) the faith of Jesus." Here is an example. The school's sportsmen set off in a big bus. In the front of the bus were the Rugby Team. In the back of the bus were the remaining sportsmen who play hockey and who play soccer. It is clear that there are THREE, each with their own standing.

    It's bed-time (00:50 here), but I will, if it becomes necessary, give my arguments as to who the Woman is. Because of the various proofs it is quite a long explanation.

    Good night and God bless.
    Let me see If I have this straight. You are saying then that you understand "remnant of her seed" to include JEWS and GENTILES by separating "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" as two different groups? So then you are thinking that both groups are represented at the time of Rev 14:12 which are SAINTS who need to have patience during the time of the beheading and rejection of the Mark?

    That is Fine i Suppose... The gentiles would fall in here (in the bold part) when the 1st resurrection Saints are given their inheritance by the Lord...

    Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

    I believe that those are the people that were not destroyed by the wrath, and come out of the rocks and caves to gather and watch the unfolding of the new Kingdom... I still think the focus is on the Jews when the text speaks of "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" is used, but I really don't think it messes with the outcome either way. So if Gentiles are included, AMEN... The only little issue I have I suppose, is that I group the following of the commandments and the testimony of Jesus together in one group, so the Gentiles would also need to follow the Law. But again, this may not be an issue either, because the Gentiles would realize the Rapture had Already happened, so there was no "Blessed Hope" left... They then would hang onto he coat tails of the Jews until everything was completed...

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Let me see If I have this straight. You are saying then that you understand "remnant of her seed" to include JEWS and GENTILES by separating "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" as two different groups? So then you are thinking that both groups are represented at the time of Rev 14:12 which are SAINTS who need to have patience during the time of the beheading and rejection of the Mark?

    That is Fine i Suppose... The gentiles would fall in here (in the bold part) when the 1st resurrection Saints are given their inheritance by the Lord...

    Ezekiel 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

    I believe that those are the people that were not destroyed by the wrath, and come out of the rocks and caves to gather and watch the unfolding of the new Kingdom... I still think the focus is on the Jews when the text speaks of "which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ" is used, but I really don't think it messes with the outcome either way. So if Gentiles are included, AMEN... The only little issue I have I suppose, is that I group the following of the commandments and the testimony of Jesus together in one group, so the Gentiles would also need to follow the Law. But again, this may not be an issue either, because the Gentiles would realize the Rapture had Already happened, so there was no "Blessed Hope" left... They then would hang onto he coat tails of the Jews until everything was completed...
    The stumbling block put before most Christians is that God has finished with Israel and only the Church is His People. But the Covenant of Promise that Israel would get their Land as "an everlasting possession" is IMMUTABLE (Heb.6:17-18). Thus, we should find Israel having its destiny ALONGSIDE, BUT NOT PART OF THE CHURCH. And this we find THREE Times in scripture:
    1. The Olive Tree of Romans 11. There is (i) Christ the Holy Root, (ii) the Natural Branches that were temporarily cut off but later reinstated, and (iii) the Wild Branches which are grafted in but are in danger of being cut off again (Rom.11:21). No-one disputes that the "Natural Branches" are Israel because that is what the text says. So here you have Jesus Christ as the Stem of the Tree with BOTH Israel and the Church. But a "Tree" in Parable is a Kingdom and its King.
    2. The Woman of Revelation 12. There is a Woman and Mother. She has THREE seeds. (i) The Overcomers (plural) who are "caught up to heaven (or the sky), (ii) Those who have "the testimony of Jesus" - only Christians have the testimony of Jesus, The Jews hate Him to this day. (iii) Those who "keep the commandments of God" - the Jewish Remnant of Deuteronomy 30:1-5. Christians keep Christ's commandments, not God's (Jn14:15, 23). This Woman depicts a Kingdom for her fist seed REIGNS over the nations.
    3. New Jerusalem. She is Wife and Mother. She has THREE Offspring, (i) Jesus, (ii) The Walls standing on the twelve Apostles, and INTEGRATED BUT SEPARATE, Israel -the Gates. And Galatians 4:26 says that New Jerusalem, the one that come down from "above", is MOTHER OF US ALL. The context of Galatians 4:16 is TWO peoples typified by TWO Old Testament characters, and they typify Israel and the Church. And the New Jerusalem has a Throne and "Reigns for ever" (Rev.22:4-5).

    In ALL THREE CASES, Israel and the Church belong to a KINGDOM, but they remain INDIVIDUAL AND SEPARATE.

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The stumbling block put before most Christians is that God has finished with Israel and only the Church is His People. But the Covenant of Promise that Israel would get their Land as "an everlasting possession" is IMMUTABLE (Heb.6:17-18). Thus, we should find Israel having its destiny ALONGSIDE, BUT NOT PART OF THE CHURCH. And this we find THREE Times in scripture:
    1. The Olive Tree of Romans 11. There is (i) Christ the Holy Root, (ii) the Natural Branches that were temporarily cut off but later reinstated, and (iii) the Wild Branches which are grafted in but are in danger of being cut off again (Rom.11:21). No-one disputes that the "Natural Branches" are Israel because that is what the text says. So here you have Jesus Christ as the Stem of the Tree with BOTH Israel and the Church. But a "Tree" in Parable is a Kingdom and its King.
    2. The Woman of Revelation 12. There is a Woman and Mother. She has THREE seeds. (i) The Overcomers (plural) who are "caught up to heaven (or the sky), (ii) Those who have "the testimony of Jesus" - only Christians have the testimony of Jesus, The Jews hate Him to this day. (iii) Those who "keep the commandments of God" - the Jewish Remnant of Deuteronomy 30:1-5. Christians keep Christ's commandments, not God's (Jn14:15, 23). This Woman depicts a Kingdom for her fist seed REIGNS over the nations.
    3. New Jerusalem. She is Wife and Mother. She has THREE Offspring, (i) Jesus, (ii) The Walls standing on the twelve Apostles, and INTEGRATED BUT SEPARATE, Israel -the Gates. And Galatians 4:26 says that New Jerusalem, the one that come down from "above", is MOTHER OF US ALL. The context of Galatians 4:16 is TWO peoples typified by TWO Old Testament characters, and they typify Israel and the Church. And the New Jerusalem has a Throne and "Reigns for ever" (Rev.22:4-5).

    In ALL THREE CASES, Israel and the Church belong to a KINGDOM, but they remain INDIVIDUAL AND SEPARATE.
    I get where you are at here. I just don't see 3 seeds OF THE WOMAN in Rev 12... (Not literally linked as a Seed in the text)

    I understand the link that GENTILE Christians (or even all those under GRACE) are of the Seed of the Woman, in that Jesus (clearly of the Seed of the Woman) is our Savior, and we are grafted into Abraham... But the text of Rev 12 seems specifically driven towards the outcome of BLOODLINE Children of Israel. The seed would be Direct descendants of the 12 stars on the crown of the Woman.

    Rev 12:4-5 the Woman gives birth to a literal seed (THE SEED) Jesus Christ. This certainly is ONE of her seed...

    Rev 12:17 "the remnant of her seed" have the distinct properties of keeping the LAW and following Christ.

    The "Remnant" is where we diverge. You take the remnant to represent or at least Accept GENTILE CHRISTIANS. I Do not. I believe the CHURCH will be removed by the time the Remnant seed are created. They (the remnant seed) certainly did not have the "testimony of Jesus Christ" when He appeared in the clouds around the time the 144,000 WOMAN was sealed... They should not be there if they were ALREADY the seed before the Appearing of Christ. They come about AFTER the Woman is already being persecuted by the Dragon.

    We are speaking of the LIVING in these verses, but then who are these?

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    These ARE THE CHURCH... Note that the Seed in Rev 12:17 are not "in the blood", but rather are "in the LAW"... Yet both of these groups "HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST"! So they are indeed different groups. But they are dead... So they do not aplly to the LIVING seed of the Woman...

    Rev 12:10-11 represent the Christians who went through the Great Tribulation (shortened to less than a year) and were persecuted and killed for their Faith in Christ, and represent:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    So, as the text stand in Rev 12, I can not except 3 seed, only 2: Jesus & the Remnant Seed.

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I get where you are at here. I just don't see 3 seeds OF THE WOMAN in Rev 12... (Not literally linked as a Seed in the text)

    I understand the link that GENTILE Christians (or even all those under GRACE) are of the Seed of the Woman, in that Jesus (clearly of the Seed of the Woman) is our Savior, and we are grafted into Abraham... But the text of Rev 12 seems specifically driven towards the outcome of BLOODLINE Children of Israel. The seed would be Direct descendants of the 12 stars on the crown of the Woman.

    Rev 12:4-5 the Woman gives birth to a literal seed (THE SEED) Jesus Christ. This certainly is ONE of her seed...

    Rev 12:17 "the remnant of her seed" have the distinct properties of keeping the LAW and following Christ.

    The "Remnant" is where we diverge. You take the remnant to represent or at least Accept GENTILE CHRISTIANS. I Do not. I believe the CHURCH will be removed by the time the Remnant seed are created. They (the remnant seed) certainly did not have the "testimony of Jesus Christ" when He appeared in the clouds around the time the 144,000 WOMAN was sealed... They should not be there if they were ALREADY the seed before the Appearing of Christ. They come about AFTER the Woman is already being persecuted by the Dragon.

    We are speaking of the LIVING in these verses, but then who are these?

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

    These ARE THE CHURCH... Note that the Seed in Rev 12:17 are not "in the blood", but rather are "in the LAW"... Yet both of these groups "HAVE THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST"! So they are indeed different groups. But they are dead... So they do not aplly to the LIVING seed of the Woman...

    Rev 12:10-11 represent the Christians who went through the Great Tribulation (shortened to less than a year) and were persecuted and killed for their Faith in Christ, and represent:

    Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

    So, as the text stand in Rev 12, I can not except 3 seed, only 2: Jesus & the Remnant Seed.
    I see where you are coming from. It is a reasonable conclusion depending on who you make the Woman. But consider this. If our Lord Jesus is the Man-Child, then the Woman MUST be Mary. But Mary never brought forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit did (Jn.3:3-5, 20:22). If you say the Woman is Israel, you have the same problem. Israel did not bring forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". They hated and persecuted them. There are other problems with these two anyway;
    1. The Woman is in heaven in verse 1. Neither Mary nor Israel were ever in heaven.
    2. The Woman is on earth as well. She flees to a wilderness for 1260 days. Neither Mary nor Israel did this.
    3. The Woman is a "sign" (wonder). Mary and Israel are real
    4. The Woman is clothed with the sun. If a garment in Parable is works (Rev.19:8), and Jesus is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal.4:2), then the Woman is clothed with the righteousness of Jesus. Neither Mary nor Israel are thus clothed.
    5. The Woman has a crown. A crown is for ruling. Neither Mary nor Israel will ever rule. The Kingdom was ripped from them (Matt.21:43)
    6. The Woman has the moon under her feet. Neither Israel nor Mary ever had this

    But if the Woman is New Jerusalem, then,
    1. She is a "sign" (Rev.21)
    2. She is both in heaven and on earth (Rev.21)
    3. She is "Mother of us all" (Christian and Israelite - Gal.4:26)
    4. She is clothed with Christ's righteousness - the sun (Rev.21:11, 23)
    5. She is the nemesis of Satan. She will "reign forever". He will hate her
    6. She has a crown for reigning
    7. Twelve is the number of God's people. 12 Tribes and 12 Apostles
    8. Stars are the heavenly part that brings the Kingdom of Heaven (Gen.22:17)

    Something to think about - hey brother?

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    Re: What is the function of a Believer once Resurrected?

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I see where you are coming from. It is a reasonable conclusion depending on who you make the Woman. But consider this. If our Lord Jesus is the Man-Child, then the Woman MUST be Mary. But Mary never brought forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". The Holy Spirit did (Jn.3:3-5, 20:22). If you say the Woman is Israel, you have the same problem. Israel did not bring forth "those who have the testimony of Jesus Christ". They hated and persecuted them. There are other problems with these two anyway;
    1. The Woman is in heaven in verse 1. Neither Mary nor Israel were ever in heaven.
    2. The Woman is on earth as well. She flees to a wilderness for 1260 days. Neither Mary nor Israel did this.
    3. The Woman is a "sign" (wonder). Mary and Israel are real
    4. The Woman is clothed with the sun. If a garment in Parable is works (Rev.19:8), and Jesus is the "Sun of righteousness" (Mal.4:2), then the Woman is clothed with the righteousness of Jesus. Neither Mary nor Israel are thus clothed.
    5. The Woman has a crown. A crown is for ruling. Neither Mary nor Israel will ever rule. The Kingdom was ripped from them (Matt.21:43)
    6. The Woman has the moon under her feet. Neither Israel nor Mary ever had this
    Ah, you don't get the whole picture I am giving here... I DO say the Woman is Israel, and MARY is included in Israel as She is a direct descendant of David, who is descended from a Child of Isaac, which means Jesus is born of ISRAEL... And that should lead us Here:

    Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

    Rev 12 is directed to the Children of Israel SPECIFICALLY, and does not touch on the Christians, except to mention them here (ALREADY BEING RAPTURED AND/OR DEAD):

    Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

    The Church has already been removed from the earth, so the context of the Dragon's wrath falls on those JEWS and Israelite who follow Christ AFTER we leave... The 144,000 are sealed at the same time WE (the Church) are taken up into heaven, as indicated by the entire chapter 7 of Revelations.

    BTW, If the Woman was in heaven when it gave birth to JESUS... That makes no sense... John saw the vision using STARS in the real heavens... But the Literal actions of the Woman happened (and will happen) on the earth.

    But if the Woman is New Jerusalem, then,

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