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Thread: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Discourse

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    Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Discourse

    Out of nowhere sometimes, it's like lightbulbs are going off in my head, and just like that, I begin to see things in a different light, as in things seem to be becoming clearer. Maybe there is something to it, or maybe it's only my imagination...I don't know for certain. But anyway....

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    The connection is with 2 Peter 3 for one. Like such.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    This generation not passing away till these things are fulfilled, equals this....But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    When this generation does pass away once all these things are fulfilled, that equals this....Heaven and earth shall pass away...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Per the context in the Discourse, this generation is meaning the heaven and the earth, IOW the age per the time meant per 2 Peter 3:7, which apparently began after the flood in Noah's day. This generation is meaning the age kept in store since the time of the flood, where after the flood, the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This generation meant per the Discourse would consist of at least 4000 years then, that depending on how long ago one concludes the flood occurred, and then when the 2nd coming occurs. And since one of the definitions for genea is an age, I don't see why this can't be what is meant here.

    Whether one agrees with me or not, that's another story. But at least one should see that I'm actually interpreting Scripture with Scripture here, regardless that you might disagree with my conclusions. Unfortunately some folks are too quick to dismiss things at times, thus don't even take the time to actually consider what is being proposed.

    As to this generation per the Discourse, let's not lose track of what context that was said in. It was clearly said within context that would involve the fulfilling of 2 Peter 3:10 for one. That proven by Matthew 24:35 for one.
    Last edited by divaD; Jul 3rd 2018 at 03:59 PM. Reason: Edited to add at the end

  2. #2

    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    *[[Gen 2:4]] KJV* These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

    Is this verse relevant to what you are saying?

    The PuP

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    *[[Gen 2:4]] KJV* These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

    Is this verse relevant to what you are saying?

    The PuP
    I have pondered that verse numerous times in the past, in relation to this generation in the Discourse. The only thing though, the Hebrew word in that verse for generations is...towldah.

    towldah
    to-led-aw'
    or toldah {to-led-aw'}; from 'yalad' (3205); (plural only) descent, i.e. family; (figuratively) history:--birth, generations.

    In Genesis 6:9, though unrelated to any of this, so only using as an example, the text is translated 'generations' two times in that verse, except both are not the same Hebrew word. One of them is dowr. The other one is towldah.

    dowr
    dore
    or (shortened) dor {dore}; from 'duwr' (1752); properly, a revolution of time, i.e. an age or generation; also a dwelling:--age, X evermore, generation, (n-)ever, posterity.

    dowr seems to be a better match for what Genea in the NT is meaning. Yet in Gen 2:4 towldah is used rather than dowr.

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    2 Peter 3:10 The Day of the Lord will come as a thief. On that Day, the heavens [sky] will disappear with a great rushing sound and the elements [constructed things] will be burnt up in flames. The earth and all that is on it will be brought to Judgement.

    This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth, that is something to come later; that we look forward to, as Peter tells us in verses 11-13.
    It is all about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. The Day when the Lord will reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    2 Peter 3:10 The Day of the Lord will come as a thief. On that Day, the heavens [sky] will disappear with a great rushing sound and the elements [constructed things] will be burnt up in flames. The earth and all that is on it will be brought to Judgement.

    This prophecy does not refer to the New Heavens and New Earth, that is something to come later; that we look forward to, as Peter tells us in verses 11-13.
    It is all about the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath; the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster by fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis. The Day when the Lord will reset our civilization to a similar degree as He did in the days of Noah.
    Yet, once the heavens and earth pass way, something has to replace them. The only logical thing would be new heavens and a new earth. This current heavens and earth can only pass away once.

    Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


    All of these have to be referring to the same time periods. Matthew 24:35 is also meaning the following.

    Matthew 24:36*But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 *But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
    38 *For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
    39 *And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Where all of that is also meaning....

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night;in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Where it can only result in the following.

    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

    If according to Matt 24 and 2 Peter 3, the heavens and earth pass away during the 2nd coming, how can Revelation 21:1 be meaning a thousand years and then some, later? What replaces them in the meantime if Revelation 21:1 is meaning a thousand years and then some, post the initial time of the 2nd coming?

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Out of nowhere sometimes, it's like lightbulbs are going off in my head, and just like that, I begin to see things in a different light, as in things seem to be becoming clearer. Maybe there is something to it, or maybe it's only my imagination...I don't know for certain. But anyway....

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    The connection is with 2 Peter 3 for one. Like such.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    This generation not passing away till these things are fulfilled, equals this....But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    When this generation does pass away once all these things are fulfilled, that equals this....Heaven and earth shall pass away...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Per the context in the Discourse, this generation is meaning the heaven and the earth, IOW the age per the time meant per 2 Peter 3:7, which apparently began after the flood in Noah's day. This generation is meaning the age kept in store since the time of the flood, where after the flood, the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This generation meant per the Discourse would consist of at least 4000 years then, that depending on how long ago one concludes the flood occurred, and then when the 2nd coming occurs. And since one of the definitions for genea is an age, I don't see why this can't be what is meant here.

    Whether one agrees with me or not, that's another story. But at least one should see that I'm actually interpreting Scripture with Scripture here, regardless that you might disagree with my conclusions. Unfortunately some folks are too quick to dismiss things at times, thus don't even take the time to actually consider what is being proposed.

    As to this generation per the Discourse, let's not lose track of what context that was said in. It was clearly said within context that would involve the fulfilling of 2 Peter 3:10 for one. That proven by Matthew 24:35 for one.
    Usually, it profits much to examine the FIRST mention of any word in scripture. It usually, but not always, sets the meaning for future reference. "Generation" fits this pattern of scripture. Now, the first mention is Genesis 2:4.

    "These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,"

    This verse is problematic if we do not use the exact words in the Hebrew. The word "created" is "Bara" and means "made out of nothing". But the word for "made" is "Asah" which means "to make out of existing materials" like a carpenter "makes" a table of wood. He does NOT "create" a table out of nothing. The above verse contains both words and this presents us with a difficulty if we do not appreciate what went before. Theologians are divided on what happened in Genesis Chapter 1. The reason for this is that the word "bara" is used only twice in the Chapter - once for making the heavens and the earth, and once for making the great sea creatures and man. Thereafter the word used is "Asah" which means ONE of TWO things:
    1. God created the heavens and the earth initially in a chaotic condition and proceeded then over six days (what ever length of time one might calculate them to be) to restore order. This understanding is very problematic because we are told at least TWICE that God is not the Author of chaos (Isa.45:18; 1st Cor.14:33).
    2. God created the heavens and the earth in good order and in verse 2 some outside force created the chaos. This understanding is much more in line with both the verses above and the literal rendering of the verses. It is literally; "And the earth BECAME waste and empty, ... ." (See both Strong and Vine). The word "was" in the Hebrew is literally "came to pass" or "became".

    So Chapter 2 verse 4 above is easily understood that the earth was "CREATED" to generate things, and later, after the restoration, it was "MADE" to generate things. What the the earth GENERATED was (1) plant-life and (2) the body of man. So the first meaning of "Generation" is "ORIGIN". And because God had set an immutable Law in Genesis 1:11-12, that is, everything containing its seed will produce the same thing again, the ORIGIN of anything with seed is everything. If it is an apple seed it will produce an apple tree with its thousands of seeds which in turn will always produce apple trees. Thus, the first mention of "generations" is what TYPE was originally GENERATED.

    This is sadly and drastically shown in the next mention of generations in Genesis 5:1-3. It reads;

    1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;
    2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.
    3 And Adam lived an hundred and thirty years, and begat a son in his own likeness, after his image; and called his name Seth:"


    In verse 1 Adam is made in the likeness of God. So according to Genesis 1:11-12, Adam should have produced Seth in the likeness of God. But he did not! Seth came in the likeness and image of Adam. How come? Adam fell before he had offspring. Adam was intrinsically changed by the fall, and Seth was born in this condition. This is confirmed in Romans 5:14; "Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.". Seth had NOT sinned like Adam yet he was destined for death. This could only be if the "death-nature" of Adam was passed on to Seth. So the "GENERATIONS" of Adam show the ORIGIN of men unlike God and like Adam. And the word is "generations" (PLURAL). Should it not be singular? Adam "generated" Seth and then next thing is that Seth generated Enos. The plural shows that Adam also generated Enos, which means that Enos has the same ORIGIN as Seth. Thus, scripture correctly records that the "generation" of Adam reach to the last man ever to be born. He will have had his ORIGIN in Adam. He would be a "generation" of Adam.

    The next mention really cements this idea. It is in Genesis 6:8-10, which reads;

    8 "But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
    9 These are the generations (tow-led-aw - Heb.) of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations (dore - Heb.), and Noah walked with God.
    10 And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth."


    Why did Noah find grace? The answer is that his "generations" were perfect. The first mention of "generations" is, as in 2:4 and 5:1, WHERE NOAH CAME FROM! His ORIGIN. Now, on earth at that time there was those that Adam generated and there was those that Angels generated, and who were superhuman. Noah did not find grace because he was sinless, or even a good man, but he found faith because his ORIGIN was male and female not angel and female. And this meaning is even more cemented when we examine the second mention of "generations" in verse 9. The first "generation of 6:9 is "tow-led-aw", and is a different word to the second mention of "generation". This "generation" is "dore"and means the TIME it takes to generate the next generation. Its use is clear from Genesis 7:1; "And the LORD said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation."

    Thus, the first mention of "generation", and the subsequent two mentions ALL point to WHAT IS GENERATED, or FROM WHAT ORIGIN comes that which is generated. This can be seen clearly in Matthew 23:30-33.

    30 "And say, If we had been in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partakers with them in the blood of the prophets.
    31 Wherefore ye be witnesses unto yourselves, that ye are the children of them which killed the prophets.
    32 Fill ye up then the measure of your fathers.
    33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?"


    Here the Lord does not set a TIME on the "generation". If He did then the TIME would be from the first Jewish prophet killed to the days of Jesus. No! The Lord is indicating that the FATHERS PRODUCED THE SONS and they are BOTH the KIND that kills the prophets. That is, they had their ORIGIN in murderous Jews, and were thus murderous Jews themselves. It was not the TIME, but where these men had their ORIGIN and what that ORIGIN was like - SERPENTINE.

    Thus, when our Lord Jesus says in Matthew 24:34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled", He is NOT talking of a period of TIME. He is talking about those who had their ORIGIN in the Serpent - the "evil and adulterous generation" who were evil and adulterous in the Wilderness when they made the Golden Calf right till their offspring, their "generation" bayed for the blood of Jesus and declared their allegiance to Caesar.

    Please forgive typos. I did not proof read this. Its 1.30 a.m and I'm bushed. Good night Y'all.

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post

    Thus, when our Lord Jesus says in Matthew 24:34, "Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled", He is NOT talking of a period of TIME. He is talking about those who had their ORIGIN in the Serpent - the "evil and adulterous generation" who were evil and adulterous in the Wilderness when they made the Golden Calf right till their offspring, their "generation" bayed for the blood of Jesus and declared their allegiance to Caesar.
    Actually I agree with you here. Your thoughts here have been the same as some of my thoughts, too. In this case then, I don't see why what I proposed in the OP, and what you propose here, can't both be true at the same time? I'm not seeing where it might cause a contradiction, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere?

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    This means just what it means. It's like trying to prove that black means white. You won't be able to get away from the fact black means black, and white means white. A generation means a generation, a literal generation.

    Jesus was saying that this is going to happen in the near future, within the lifetime of some of those around at that time. Jesus clearly derived this from Dan 9.26-27, where the destruction of the city and the sanctuary is discussed. This had to do with the abomination of desolation associated with the desolation of Jerusalem and the temple. Jesus was saying it was going to happen in his lifetime, if only after his death.

    Yes, Jesus mentioned his 2nd Coming. He did *not* say that would happen in his own generation. Jesus mentioned a number of things, including the destruction of the temple, and then said "all these things" would take place in "this generation." That is, the things leading up to the temple's destruction would happen in that generation--not Christ's 2nd Coming.

    But some are resistant to things like black and white. I sympathize. It's a tough road to go down, trying to disprove what Jesus explicitly said!

  9. #9

    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Out of nowhere sometimes, it's like lightbulbs are going off in my head, and just like that, I begin to see things in a different light, as in things seem to be becoming clearer. Maybe there is something to it, or maybe it's only my imagination...I don't know for certain. But anyway....

    Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    The connection is with 2 Peter 3 for one. Like such.

    2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.


    This generation not passing away till these things are fulfilled, equals this....But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    When this generation does pass away once all these things are fulfilled, that equals this....Heaven and earth shall pass away...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Per the context in the Discourse, this generation is meaning the heaven and the earth, IOW the age per the time meant per 2 Peter 3:7, which apparently began after the flood in Noah's day. This generation is meaning the age kept in store since the time of the flood, where after the flood, the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men. This generation meant per the Discourse would consist of at least 4000 years then, that depending on how long ago one concludes the flood occurred, and then when the 2nd coming occurs. And since one of the definitions for genea is an age, I don't see why this can't be what is meant here.

    Whether one agrees with me or not, that's another story. But at least one should see that I'm actually interpreting Scripture with Scripture here, regardless that you might disagree with my conclusions. Unfortunately some folks are too quick to dismiss things at times, thus don't even take the time to actually consider what is being proposed.

    As to this generation per the Discourse, let's not lose track of what context that was said in. It was clearly said within context that would involve the fulfilling of 2 Peter 3:10 for one. That proven by Matthew 24:35 for one.
    When I look at verses 34,35 together:
    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    I noticed that the word par-erchomai is used 3 times in these 2 verses, translated as "pass" once and "pass away" twice. But could be pass away all 3 times.

    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass (away), till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    To use [not] "pass away" with generation seems to convey a different meaning than just with [not] pass. Generation, as a time descriptor, does not seem to work with "pass away". The idea conveyed is to disappear, whether it is abruptly or gradually.

    Continuing on with "pass away", the main point that Jesus, that I think he is conveying is that heaven will pass away [before] his words pass away. There I see that meaning that his words will remain true , longer than heaven and earth remain as they are. So that we have:
    *[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall remain true beyond that.

    So then, we ask, what words will remain true? What else than but what Jesus just said:

    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass [away], till all these things be fulfilled.*[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away, [but will continue to be true].

    Put in simpler terms:
    Heaven and earth shall pass away before this generation passes away.

    That does not sound like generation is being used in a time oriented fashion. One more thought.

    That in itself, does not preclude the notion that all these things will be seen by one generation of people [time], but it can support that notion. But if one or more of the things that Jesus spoke about, have yet to happen, all of them must happen BEFORE that day and hour takes place... his return.

    I would add one final thought to say that heaven & earth can indeed pass away without it being the "NEW heavens and new earth" that Peter spoke about. Why do I say that? Peter says that the arrival of the day of the Lord will see the elements of the earth melting with fervent heat. Therefore, whay manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation, because WE, that same group of people, are looking for something beyond the heavens and earth passing away. We are looking beyond that time to when they will be full of [wherein dwelleth] righteousness. He is saying that burning up the earth will not produce men's hearts that are filled up with righteousness, but it will come to those walking with that desire in the here and now, before it becomes the when and after.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  10. #10

    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    I don't think you can include Christ's second coming under the umbrella statement of 'all these things' the generation He is speaking to would see. Because in verse 36 he says he doesn't know when His second coming would be. If He admits He doesn't know when He will return, how could He know that this generation would live to see it unless he just had a ballpark idea of when, which is not stated in the text? And like the OP says, the heavens and the earth pass away on the day that Christ returns as per 2 Peter 2:10. So if He doesn't know the day He will return, he also doesn't know the day the heavens and the earth will pass away. So He can't know if that generation will live long enough to see that. So IOW He can be speaking of ALL the things He said previously from the beginning of the discourse in verse 34, since He doesn't know the timing of some of those things.

    I believe that Matthew 24:33,34 is the interpretation of the fig tree parable of verse 32. In the parable 'All these things' only includes those things up until the beginning of the summer harvest, but doesn't include the summer season itself. Summer is only NEAR after 'this generation' sees 'All these things'. So in the parable 'All these things' would include only the shooting forth of leaves from the branch of the fig tree and the leaves becoming tender, this is what "this generation' would see in the parable, they would not see the summer season itself (the end).

    If you trace back in the discourse to when the summer season (the end) begins it is in verse 14. Verse 13 says that 'the end' comes after the gospel is preached to the whole world, which it was in that generation (Colossians 1:23). Or to put it simply, everything from Matthew 24:1-13 happened within 'this generation', from 14 onwards does not. At least the way I'm understanding the parable.

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Actually I agree with you here. Your thoughts here have been the same as some of my thoughts, too. In this case then, I don't see why what I proposed in the OP, and what you propose here, can't both be true at the same time? I'm not seeing where it might cause a contradiction, unless I'm misunderstanding you somewhere?
    No. You are not misunderstanding. Each of us will see things. What you see, or have seen, is absolutely valid for you. I have not seen what you have seen so I lay down what I have seen. The other readers can read, contemplate, calculate and comprehend what is written ACCORDING AS GOD GIVES THEM LIGHT. Your new view of "generation" is foreign to me, but I cannot say it is categorically wrong. I can only give my understanding of it. It is the dynamics of this Forum that we are refused and misunderstood. That is either because we ARE downright wrong, or that others have not received the same light. I'm sure you'll agree, old Walls gets his fair share of blurts. But it doesn't stop me from posting my view. Go for it bro. God bless

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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by crush View Post
    I don't think you can include Christ's second coming under the umbrella statement of 'all these things' the generation He is speaking to would see. Because in verse 36 he says he doesn't know when His second coming would be. If He admits He doesn't know when He will return, how could He know that this generation would live to see it unless he just had a ballpark idea of when, which is not stated in the text? And like the OP says, the heavens and the earth pass away on the day that Christ returns as per 2 Peter 2:10. So if He doesn't know the day He will return, he also doesn't know the day the heavens and the earth will pass away. So He can't know if that generation will live long enough to see that. So IOW He can be speaking of ALL the things He said previously from the beginning of the discourse in verse 34, since He doesn't know the timing of some of those things.

    Per my position in the OP it wouldn't matter that He did not know the day and hour. That day and hour can't come until all these things He predicted in the Discourse are fulfilled first. Which has to also include things one sees being fulfilled towards the end of this age. What might one of those things be? The AOD for one, IOW the GT, IOW the 42 month reign of the beast. Then after that what is recorded about the sun being darkened, etc.

    Recall what I concluded in the OP.

    This generation not passing away till these things are fulfilled, equals this....But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    When this generation does pass away once all these things are fulfilled, that equals this....Heaven and earth shall pass away...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Obviously when the latter above happens(2 Peter 3:10), this is when this age currently kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, can finally pass away, and in it's place a new and better age can eventually begin.

  13. #13
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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    When I look at verses 34,35 together:
    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    I noticed that the word par-erchomai is used 3 times in these 2 verses, translated as "pass" once and "pass away" twice. But could be pass away all 3 times.

    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass (away), till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

    To use [not] "pass away" with generation seems to convey a different meaning than just with [not] pass. Generation, as a time descriptor, does not seem to work with "pass away". The idea conveyed is to disappear, whether it is abruptly or gradually.

    Continuing on with "pass away", the main point that Jesus, that I think he is conveying is that heaven will pass away [before] his words pass away. There I see that meaning that his words will remain true , longer than heaven and earth remain as they are. So that we have:
    *[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall remain true beyond that.

    So then, we ask, what words will remain true? What else than but what Jesus just said:

    *[[Mat 24:34]] KJV* Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass [away], till all these things be fulfilled.*[[Mat 24:35]] KJV* Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away, [but will continue to be true].

    Put in simpler terms:
    Heaven and earth shall pass away before this generation passes away.

    That does not sound like generation is being used in a time oriented fashion. One more thought.

    That in itself, does not preclude the notion that all these things will be seen by one generation of people [time], but it can support that notion. But if one or more of the things that Jesus spoke about, have yet to happen, all of them must happen BEFORE that day and hour takes place... his return.

    I would add one final thought to say that heaven & earth can indeed pass away without it being the "NEW heavens and new earth" that Peter spoke about. Why do I say that? Peter says that the arrival of the day of the Lord will see the elements of the earth melting with fervent heat. Therefore, whay manner of persons ought you to be in all holy conversation, because WE, that same group of people, are looking for something beyond the heavens and earth passing away. We are looking beyond that time to when they will be full of [wherein dwelleth] righteousness. He is saying that burning up the earth will not produce men's hearts that are filled up with righteousness, but it will come to those walking with that desire in the here and now, before it becomes the when and after.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    Matthew 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
    33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
    34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
    35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
    36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
    37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

    Mark 13:28 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near:
    29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
    30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
    33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    Luke 21:29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
    30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
    31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
    32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
    33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
    34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.


    Yet you ignored what Luke 21 says though. Look at verse 32. Does it not say pass away in that verse?

    On a different note, this mainly speaking to those that interpret this generation to be meaning the first century. Look at verse 33 in Mark 13...Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. That has to also apply to verse 30 if it is applying to the verses surrounding it. If verse 30 is meaning 70 AD though, like some wrongly conclude, why would verse 33 be referring to that if they were supposed to flee once seeing those things that would cause the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 AD?

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.


    Let's assume we all agree this is meaning 70 AD.

    Let's look at it like such.

    Luke 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
    21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
    Mark 13::30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.
    Mark 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.

    Does verse 33 really seem like it fits here if verse 20 and 21 are meaning 70 AD, keeping in mind verse 33 has to also be applied to verse 30? And if verse 33 can't fit the above, then neither can verse 30. I'm pretty certain they would know when the time is via seeing Jerusalem surrounded by armies.

  14. #14

    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Per my position in the OP it wouldn't matter that He did not know the day and hour. That day and hour can't come until all these things He predicted in the Discourse are fulfilled first. Which has to also include things one sees being fulfilled towards the end of this age. What might one of those things be? The AOD for one, IOW the GT, IOW the 42 month reign of the beast. Then after that what is recorded about the sun being darkened, etc.

    Recall what I concluded in the OP.

    This generation not passing away till these things are fulfilled, equals this....But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

    When this generation does pass away once all these things are fulfilled, that equals this....Heaven and earth shall pass away...But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

    Obviously when the latter above happens(2 Peter 3:10), this is when this age currently kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men, can finally pass away, and in it's place a new and better age can eventually begin.
    Hi divaD. I think we both probably generally agree that the events of the entire discourse didn't occur in the 1st century. In your quote I was just trying another way to show that logically Jesus couldn't be saying that 'this generation' could see all those things described, I wasn't really trying to argue with you.

    But the problem I see in your OP is that you've taken vss 34 out of it's context and are trying to apply it universally to the entire discourse and then solve an issue vs 34 raises. When you really should only be applying it to verse 32 since it's the interpretation of the parable. 'All these things' isn't meaning the entire discourse, it's meaning everything mentioned in the parable. I mean obviously those in the first century didn't see the return of Christ because that hasn't happened yet. So there is no way those living in the first century could witness the entire events of the discourse. So verse 34 can't be universally applied anyway.

    In the context of vss 32-34 Jesus says 1) learn this parable 2) gives us a parable 3) explains the parable. We couldn't learn the parable if He didn't explain it to us right?

    I see a lot of scholarship and out of the box thinking in this thread, which is great, I really enjoy that. But in this case I think that the answer as to what 'this generation' sees is very simple.

    I didn't want to disrupt your thread, sorry if I did. Just adding my two cents. God Bless

  15. #15
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    Re: Some of my newly rethinking on what this generation might be meaning in the Disco

    Why go to Genesis and 2 Peter to interpret Jesus in Matthew? Stay with Jesus in Matthew.

    Every other time Jesus says this generation in Matthew (11:16; 12:41; 12:42; 23:36), he always is referring to those who were alive and that he was talking to.

    Please look up those verses. One of them is in the chapter immediately preceding the one in question. I think itís odd to think that a repeatedly used phrase used by Jesus suddenly changes meaning.

    This is an example of why I changed my eschatological framework.

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