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Thread: Righteousness

  1. #46
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    You call it "2 dimensional" , I call it taking scripture at face value and interpreting it as the church fathers and how the protestant church at large has interpreted it for the last 2,000 years.
    John may have been a Baptist but there was no protestant church even 500 years ago. And there are so many ways to interpret that the protestant sects can't even decide on what justification is. There is far more variances than perhaps you are aware of.

    What I am talking about is actual apostolic doctrine. It works with ALL the biblical verses and explains them ALL. But to see that would take a LOT more explaining and example than we can do online.


    The thief is in heaven and is there as a result of God's grace and his faith. As I said earlier, he had no works because he was pinned to a tree.
    He was not born again. His salvation is based on Ez. 18 and Ez. 33. These are chapters based on righteousness which basically no one understands anymore. Paul counseled Timothy to learn about righteousness from the OT. Who does that anymore? (PS: I do)

    The parables you are speaking of are good for teaching about the danger of not being genuine, but they aren't suggesting a progression unto salvation. They are saying that someone who is genuinely a follower of Christ will follow Christ. And in that I believe we can all agree ( or at least I hope we can ).
    Sure. But there's a lot more to it than that. How many teach that half of us (at least) will be cut off from the kingdom of God forever? How many teach the truth? VERY few. If we would be wise we would heed the warnings in order to make our calling and election sure. But people ignore the warnings saying...NOT ME! yet the disciples said...Lord is it I??? MUCH MUCH wiser. Notice the foolish ones are called...well...foolish. Try helping them...and they will mock you. So let them remain foolish.

    Concerning the highlighted parts of your post. Ultimately with God, nothing is subjective but is absolute. His truth, His nature, His order, are all absolute and clear. We should take note that there is no man centered interpretation, or any super-enlightenment only granted to those who have an unknown doctrine that other's just can't "get". By and large, those with this "enlightenment" that goes against 2,000 years of widely accepted understanding of scripture , have actually interpreted the scripture incorrectly. This doesn't mean they are bad, lost , or unloved by God, it just means they have an inaccurate understanding of the bible.
    Again..there have been resurgences of truth along the way..in the great revivals...but people always go back to sleep. So then truth works in the church in cycles. Just because you have never heard of the truth of something (because the cycle is coming around again) doesn't mean that it isn't the exact truth. But you would have to either have lived for hundreds of years to see this cycle or just inform yourself.

    I don't mean to be divisive, and I apologize if I have offended you. But your doctrine is rather confusing to me. If that means I'm in nursery school, then so be it. Mine is simple, easy to understand, and not subjective. It says that at the cross all are equal and all come to Christ the same exact way. Through faith and repentance. This is the Gospel that Christ Himself preached.
    In that context there is a truth to this. But life is not so black and white. Life is NOT 2 dimensional...and neither is God's way with men. There are many levels of glory and many levels of punishment and then there is just a basic salvation somewhere in between these. THAT is the way of the kingdom. it takes a spiritual life and discernment to perceive these. (and e ven then there is a mystery at work)

  2. #47
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    John may have been a Baptist but there was no protestant church even 500 years ago. And there are so many ways to interpret that the protestant sects can't even decide on what justification is. There is far more variances than perhaps you are aware of.
    Why are you on a Protestant forum if you reject our articles of faith?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  3. #48
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Do you see now what 2 dimensional thinking is? Everything is religious and dogmatic....it is either yes or no. So you will never understand the things of the kingdom that way. As long as you use your own reasoning it will be futile. I may as well talk to a wall. It is unfortunate as I love to talk of the bible and the things of the kingdom. But I can't here...I just get ridiculed for what is very basic. This is nursery school.

    Instead, look at the 3 challenges I posted above to a proper biblical understanding and tell US what it means...according to what you have learned from the bible and what the Holy Spirit has taught you. (the Holy Spirit guides into ALL truth)
    Your “two dimensional thinking” argument is a man made abstract. I don’t know if it’s designed to deceive the elect or maybe it’s uncorrected doctrinal error since you have forsaken the gathering of saints. It certainly is not Biblical.

    I ask you again:

    Do the righteous need Jesus for salvation?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  4. #49
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Why are you on a Protestant forum if you reject our articles of faith?
    I read the KJV. If it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.

    Which protestant sect? My understanding resembles the original salvation army doctrine. Is that protestant enough?

  5. #50
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    I read the KJV. If it was good enough for Paul, it's good enough for me.
    Your superiority complex is unhealthy.

    BTW, I don’t use King James.

    do the righteous need Jesus for salvation?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  6. #51
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Your superiority complex is unhealthy.

    BTW, I don’t use King James.

    do the righteous need Jesus for salvation?
    AhA!................there you go.

    Did the Israelites need straw to make bricks? Can you speak anything but strawmen?

  7. #52
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    Re: Righteousness

    John may have been a Baptist but there was no protestant church even 500 years ago. And there are so many ways to interpret that the protestant sects can't even decide on what justification is. There is far more variances than perhaps you are aware of.
    By and large the Protestant Faith agrees on what Justification is. I don't know where you are getting this.
    What I am talking about is actual apostolic doctrine. It works with ALL the biblical verses and explains them ALL. But to see that would take a LOT more explaining and example than we can do online.
    Says every single Christian who is debating doctrine ever... including myself.
    He was not born again. His salvation is based on Ez. 18 and Ez. 33. These are chapters based on righteousness which basically no one understands anymore. Paul counseled Timothy to learn about righteousness from the OT. Who does that anymore? (PS: I do)
    He was justified through faith in Christ. This is the exact same requirement of everyone who is justified. FAITH and REPENTANCE. Nothing more. Justification will bring forth sanctification. It has to. And it's good you teach out of the Old Testament as it does contain many , many valuable truth's on righteousness.

    [QUOTE]Sure. But there's a lot more to it than that. How many teach that half of us (at least) will be cut off from the kingdom of God forever? How many teach the truth? VERY few. If we would be wise we would heed the warnings in order to make our calling and election sure. But people ignore the warnings saying...NOT ME! yet the disciples said...Lord is it I??? MUCH MUCH wiser. Notice the foolish ones are called...well...foolish. Try helping them...and they will mock you. So let them remain foolish.[/QUOTE]

    Brother , if you feel this way in your heart, YOU are the one with much to learn. As with everything, there is much more than meets the eye. And this is especially true with biblical doctrine. Concerning at least half... half of who ? The elect ? Back this up with cohesive scripture instead of isolating verses. And by the way... when the apostles received the Holy Spirit , everything changed. This is the same Holy Spirit that every born again believer receives when they call upon the name of the Lord.

    Again..there have been resurgences of truth along the way..in the great revivals...but people always go back to sleep. So then truth works in the church in cycles. Just because you have never heard of the truth of something (because the cycle is coming around again) doesn't mean that it isn't the exact truth. But you would have to either have lived for hundreds of years to see this cycle or just inform yourself.
    You assume a great deal. What makes you think I'm ignorant of past revival ? Also, when these awakenings happened, what was preached is the same one that is always preached. Repentance and Faith.

    In that context there is a truth to this. But life is not so black and white. Life is NOT 2 dimensional...and neither is God's way with men. There are many levels of glory and many levels of punishment and then there is just a basic salvation somewhere in between these. THAT is the way of the kingdom. it takes a spiritual life and discernment to perceive these. (and e ven then there is a mystery at work)
    Do you see where I get the different levels of salvation now ? Posts like this one. And by the way... the "mystery" is not the means in which someone comes to justification as that is indeed simple. It's HOW God justified. And truthfully , I don't believe we will fully understand that until we are glorified.

  8. #53
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    Re: Righteousness

    Do you see where I get the different levels of salvation now ? Posts like this one. And by the way... the "mystery" is not the means in which someone comes to justification as that is indeed simple. It's HOW God justified. And truthfully , I don't believe we will fully understand that until we are glorified.
    Do you mean where I teach different levels of salvation...or you do?

    The bible teaches the different levels. Some will be great ...some will be least. Some will have honour and some will have shame. BASIC doctrine. If you want to look at that...start a thread on levels of salvation.

  9. #54
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    AhA!................there you go.

    Did the Israelites need straw to make bricks? Can you speak anything but strawmen?
    Are you so unsure of your doctrine you can’t boldly proclaim it?

    Do the righteous need Jesus for salvation?

    Don’t cower behind distractions and innuendo. Just be bold and provide a straight answer.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  10. #55
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Are you so unsure of your doctrine you can’t boldly proclaim it?

    Do the righteous need Jesus for salvation?

    Don’t cower behind distractions and innuendo. Just be bold and provide a straight answer.
    All men need Jesus. He died for the sins of the whole world. Didn't you hear about that? That includes every human.

  11. #56
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    All men need Jesus. He died for the sins of the whole world. Didn't you hear about that? That includes every human.
    You are still avoiding the question.

    Do the righteous need Jesus for salvation? Why do you refuse to answer?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  12. #57

    Re: Righteousness

    Jn 16:8-11 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they believe not on me; of righteousness, because I go to my Father and ye see me no more; of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged."

    When a lost person is being called of the Lord, the Holy Spirit reproves that person with conviction for their sins. This conviction of the Holy Spirit produces a sorrow that is either after the world, leading to death or a godly sorrow that draws the lost person to Jesus with a repentance not to be repented of.
    The Born-again believer is reproved by the Holy Spirit for righteousness, illuminating scripture and writing the NT commandments onto the table of our hearts and minds; transforming us more and more into Jesus' image as we are predestined to be.
    In our war with the evil one, we begin with the victory because he is being judged as the Holy Spirit moves against the evil one and his minion through the members of the church. Now we, like the Israelites crossing into the promised land, must go in and posses the land of thought life with weapons that are not carnal but mighty through God to the pulling down of strongholds of sins that are now just habits that no longer enslave us since we have been set free indeed.

  13. #58
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDivineWatermark View Post
    No.

    Sorry I didn't make that more clear.


    --the "having been filled" [v.11] occurs from the time we "believe" to the time of our death (or our Rapture [i.e. at the Day of Christ, v.10], if we happen to still be living then [If we die, we'll be resurrected/raptured then]).
    Thanks for clarifying. For what it's worth, I suspected it was a typo...

  14. #59
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by episkopos View Post
    Do you mean where I teach different levels of salvation...or you do?

    The bible teaches the different levels. Some will be great ...some will be least. Some will have honour and some will have shame. BASIC doctrine. If you want to look at that...start a thread on levels of salvation.
    Possibly different reward .. but the same heaven or destination. Would you agree with this ?

  15. #60
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    Re: Righteousness

    Quote Originally Posted by Pbminimum View Post
    Possibly different reward .. but the same heaven or destination. Would you agree with this ?
    There is no difference or variation to salvation, it is the same. But you're right, rewards vary.

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