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Thread: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

  1. #46
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    You have completely failed to understand the point that this thread is about.
    Maybe because you haven't made any point.

  2. #47

    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    In response to post 44: I looked at it in considerable detail when I was doing my theology degree, and it does not stand up to closer investigation.
    In response to post 45: Grow up.

  3. #48
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    But my point is that even if both Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus had been real people who had made public statements that they had personally supervised the burial of Jesus in a marked grave, there could always have been Christians so convinced that Jesus was alive that they would have dismissed any such evidence. Such behaviour can be shown all over the world and throughout history. Some people are simply averse to evidence, and it would be no surprise that a religion started as a result of such people.
    People die for various religions for various reasons. So that Christians die for their faith is worth thinking about but doesn’t prove it. However, the apostles would have known it was a farce and that they had never seen him.

    Many people die for a lie when they think it’s the truth. Who does for a lie that they know is a lie?

    That’s what you are asking us to believe - the apostles knew it was a lie and died for it anyway. I don’t have that kind of faith. That’s why I am not an agnostic or atheist.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

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  4. #49

    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    But my point is that even if both Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus had been real people who had made public statements that they had personally supervised the burial of Jesus in a marked grave, there could always have been Christians so convinced that Jesus was alive that they would have dismissed any such evidence. Such behaviour can be shown all over the world and throughout history. Some people are simply averse to evidence, and it would be no surprise that a religion started as a result of such people.
    You are correct that there are people who are set in their beliefs regardless of the evidence. The prosecutors and defence attorneys try to weed out such people during jury selection. But how would this apply in the case of a new and radical idea of resurrection? Most people's default belief is that it doesn't normally happen. So if people were averse to evidence, it is unlikely that there would be many people who had a pre-existing bias that Jesus rose from the dead.

    Creationists are biased against evidence for evolution because we (myself included) believe in a literal interpretation of Genesis. There are also other reasons why we believe the Bible. In the case of the resurrection of Jesus, there are a few Scriptures describing the resurrection of the Messiah (Psalm 16:10-11; Isaiah 52:10), which even the disciples did not understand until after the fact. Peter quoted Psalm 16 in his sermon on Pentecost (Acts 2:25-28), so if his listeners believed the Bible, that could lead to faith that Jesus resurrected, in the absence of seeing verifiable proof.

    Romans 10:17 NKJV So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

  5. #50
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    But my point is that even if both Joseph of Arimathea and Nicodemus had been real people who had made public statements that they had personally supervised the burial of Jesus in a marked grave, there could always have been Christians so convinced that Jesus was alive that they would have dismissed any such evidence. Such behaviour can be shown all over the world and throughout history. Some people are simply averse to evidence, and it would be no surprise that a religion started as a result of such people.
    For one, the story of Jesus addresses this with regard to the Roman soldiers. Had Jesus been real, and had in fact really NOT risen, his body would have obviously been put on display to counteract claims of his resurrection. Since no such story of said display exists to lend credit to your idea, then the "evidence" that you say existed is not evidence at all. There is no real alternative historical account, or are you waiting for us to ask you about it so you can present that as evidence?
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  6. #51

    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    People die for various religions for various reasons. So that Christians die for their faith is worth thinking about but doesn’t prove it. However, the apostles would have known it was a farce and that they had never seen him.

    Many people die for a lie when they think it’s the truth. Who does for a lie that they know is a lie?

    That’s what you are asking us to believe - the apostles knew it was a lie and died for it anyway. I don’t have that kind of faith. That’s why I am not an agnostic or atheist.
    What's the matter, you don't want to get stoned, or crucified upside down, or boiled alive, just to perpetuate a belief you know to be false? You wimp.

  7. #52

    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Some of the responses on this thread are a good illustration of how Christianity is just another cult or sect. It is a standard cult practice to pretend to have been asked a different question from the one genuinely asked so that you can give the answer to the question you were hoping to be asked instead.

    Here is what people are pretending I said:
    The first Christians knew that Jesus had not risen from the dead.
    Here is what I am saying:
    The first Christians mistakenly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead, and were so devout in this mistaken belief that no evidence to the contrary would have persuaded them otherwise, just as many people to this day illustrate in their devotion to a variety of objectively false beliefs.

    And that is aside from the question of whether any of the first generation of Christians were actually killed specifically for saying that Jesus had bodily risen from the dead and could have avoided death by recanting this.

  8. #53
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    Some of the responses on this thread are a good illustration of how Christianity is just another cult or sect. It is a standard cult practice to pretend to have been asked a different question from the one genuinely asked so that you can give the answer to the question you were hoping to be asked instead.

    Here is what people are pretending I said:
    The first Christians knew that Jesus had not risen from the dead.
    Here is what I am saying:
    The first Christians mistakenly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead, and were so devout in this mistaken belief that no evidence to the contrary would have persuaded them otherwise, just as many people to this day illustrate in their devotion to a variety of objectively false beliefs.

    And that is aside from the question of whether any of the first generation of Christians were actually killed specifically for saying that Jesus had bodily risen from the dead and could have avoided death by recanting this.
    Act 7:56 "Look!" he said. "I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God!"
    Act 7:57 With a loud cry the Council members covered their ears with their hands. Then they all rushed at him at once,
    Act 7:58 threw him out of the city, and stoned him. The witnesses left their cloaks in the care of a young man named Saul.

    1Co 15:5 that he appeared to Peter and then to all twelve apostles.
    1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of his followers at once, most of whom are still alive, although some have died.
    1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, and afterward to all the apostles.
    1Co 15:8 Last of all he appeared also to me---even though I am like someone whose birth was abnormal.

    If you do not want to believe these witnesses, why must I believe any one claiming something else who was not even there? Evidence was given for those who wanted to investigate the resurrection of Jesus. Can you proof that the evidence was refuted by anyone at that time?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    Some of the responses on this thread are a good illustration of how Christianity is just another cult or sect. It is a standard cult practice to pretend to have been asked a different question from the one genuinely asked so that you can give the answer to the question you were hoping to be asked instead.

    Here is what people are pretending I said:
    The first Christians knew that Jesus had not risen from the dead.
    Here is what I am saying:
    The first Christians mistakenly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead, and were so devout in this mistaken belief that no evidence to the contrary would have persuaded them otherwise, just as many people to this day illustrate in their devotion to a variety of objectively false beliefs.

    And that is aside from the question of whether any of the first generation of Christians were actually killed specifically for saying that Jesus had bodily risen from the dead and could have avoided death by recanting this.
    Act 7:56 "Look!" he said. "I see heaven opened and the Son of Man standing at the right side of God!"
    Act 7:57 With a loud cry the Council members covered their ears with their hands. Then they all rushed at him at once,
    Act 7:58 threw him out of the city, and stoned him. The witnesses left their cloaks in the care of a young man named Saul.

    1Co 15:5 that he appeared to Peter and then to all twelve apostles.
    1Co 15:6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred of his followers at once, most of whom are still alive, although some have died.
    1Co 15:7 Then he appeared to James, and afterward to all the apostles.
    1Co 15:8 Last of all he appeared also to me---even though I am like someone whose birth was abnormal.

    If you do not want to believe these witnesses, why must I believe any one claiming something else who was not even there? Evidence was given for those who wanted to investigate the resurrection of Jesus. Can you proof that the evidence was refuted by anyone at that time?

  9. #54
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    The first Christians mistakenly believed that Jesus had risen from the dead,
    How do you know ?

  10. #55
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    MOD NOTE: I've hidden the post making derogatory remarks about special needs people and I've hidden the subsequent post referencing it.

    David, we are all aware that you think we are idiots and I wish you could understand that your own belief system isn't going to sway anyone here. Keep asking questions or making comments or debating if you like, but do so in a civil manner.

    That goes for all.

    Jayne
    ".....it's your nickel"

  11. #56

    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    If you did a search-and-replace exercise on a dialogue with the International Krishna Consciousness movement, it would be impossible to differentiate between it and this forum. The dishonest bait-and-switch tactic is identical.

  12. #57
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    Re: Kicking the resurrection argument into a cocked hat.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    If you did a search-and-replace exercise on a dialogue with the International Krishna Consciousness movement, it would be impossible to differentiate between it and this forum. The dishonest bait-and-switch tactic is identical.
    What does this even mean ?

    No one is switching and baiting here. You are simply pushing your agenda and no one is buying it. Again, you come to a Christian website for an extended amount of time, doing the same thing thread after thread, and expect a different result ? No... you get the result you want. You only desire to cause strife and argument. You go out of your way to promote such, and even to those who do not believe in Jesus, that's a pretty bad thing to do.

    For the record, the resurrection is a paramount belief in Christianity. Without the resurrection , there is no forgiveness of sin. It's very important to us as followers of Jesus. You come in a ( I can't stress this enough ) CHRISTIAN website and say it's a lie. That we are deceived, and then proceed to act like you are a victim. Come on man.

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidYoung View Post
    If you did a search-and-replace exercise on a dialogue with the International Krishna Consciousness movement, it would be impossible to differentiate between it and this forum. The dishonest bait-and-switch tactic is identical.
    What does this even mean ?

    No one is switching and baiting here. You are simply pushing your agenda and no one is buying it. Again, you come to a Christian website for an extended amount of time, doing the same thing thread after thread, and expect a different result ? No... you get the result you want. You only desire to cause strife and argument. You go out of your way to promote such, and even to those who do not believe in Jesus, that's a pretty bad thing to do.

    For the record, the resurrection is a paramount belief in Christianity. Without the resurrection , there is no forgiveness of sin. It's very important to us as followers of Jesus. You come in a ( I can't stress this enough ) CHRISTIAN website and say it's a lie. That we are deceived, and then proceed to act like you are a victim. Come on man.

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