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Thread: ezekiel's temple #1000

  1. #46
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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Funny though, when I read Ez 40-48 I don't see any hint anywhere in the texts that a counterfeit temple gets built first followed by a legit one. I know what you are likely going to say. Those things can't be determined from Ez 40-48 but are determined via other Scriptures alleging to be related to this subject. True, many times things can be determined in that manner. But in this case I think not.
    No there isn't such a thing anywhere in Scripture.

    At least that conclusion agrees with the text I brought up in my last post. But there is still this deal about all this animal sacrificing going on, and that it would have to continue like that for for ever as well. After all, according to the texts involved, one can't have this temple in Ezekiel without also having all of these sacrifices involving the sacrificing of animals.
    That is because everybody seems to believe that sacrificing is done away with at the Cross, but Scripture never says this and learns the opposite in numerous occasions. For example:

    Isa. 19:21 « And the LORD shall be known to Egypt, and the Egyptians shall know the LORD in that day, and shall do sacrifice and oblation; yea, they shall vow a vow unto the LORD, and perform it ».

    This is obvious in the future after the return of the Lord, as is this one:

    Jer. 33:18 « Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually. »

    Aristarkos

  2. #47
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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Since Fenris is also participating in this thread I would like to get his opinion on the following. Some have suggested that this prophecy was conditional, based on whether or not the house of Israel were ashamed of all that they have done. And if they were ashamed, Ezekiel was to then shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.

    My question to Fenris, does or does not the text indicate they were shown the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, etc? And if yes, wouldn't this indicate they were ashamed of all that they have done? Therefore, wouldn't that mean the condition was met, thus one can't claim the temple never gets built because the house of Israel failed to meet the conditions? Thus not a valid argument.

  3. #48
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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    My question to Fenris, does or does not the text indicate they were shown the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, etc? And if yes, wouldn't this indicate they were ashamed of all that they have done?
    If you're talking about chapter 43, and specifically verse 10 and on, it seems that yes, they were ashamed of their sin and that's why they were allowed to know and record this information. Verse 11: And if they are ashamed of all that they have done, let them know the form of the House and its scheme, its exits and its entrances, and all its forms, and all its laws and all its teachings, and write it down in their sight so that they keep the whole form thereof and the laws thereof, and do them. I don't see any other way to understand this.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

  4. #49

    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    Like I have already mentioned in this thread, I don't know what to make of this Ezekiel temple myself. Very perplexing IMO.

    It seems to me some are suggesting the temple gets built but then gets destroyed eventually. How could that be possible in light of the following?

    Ezekiel 43:7 And he said unto me, Son of man, the place of my throne, and the place of the soles of my feet, where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever, and my holy name, shall the house of Israel no more defile, neither they, nor their kings, by their whoredom, nor by the carcases of their kings in their high places.

    How can per Ez 40-48, the place of His throne, and the place of the soles of His feet, not be meaning this same temple? And if it is meaning that and that it gets built eventually, then destroyed, how does the latter not contradict...where I will dwell in the midst of the children of Israel for ever? How can He dwell there forever within this temple if this temple itself is not there for ever? Why would the text say for ever if for ever wasn't really actually what is meant? And once again, just like in my initial post in this thread, where I indicated God was the speaker in those verses, the same applies with verse 7 above. And if God cannot lie, how can it be the truth if this temple gets built but then eventually gets destroyed, therefore failing to fulfill the part about for ever?
    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Cor.6:16

    Paul is quoting Eze.43:7. Ezekiels vision of the temple is how God sees us. It's a manifestation of the beauty of his people.

    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Cor.3:16

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, there are *not* 2 separate programs of redemption, 1 for believers and another for unbelievers. You have sacrifices for believers, and washing for unbelievers. The cross alone takes care of both atonement and purification.
    No. I had Christ's All-Encompassing Sacrifice for believers, and animal sacrifices for CLEANSING the unbeliever WHEN HE/SHE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE AUDIENCE WITH EMMANUEL. You had Christ's complete efficacy for the unbeliever. No doubt you will stick to your theory, so I will say it again for the other readers;
    1. Christ died for the sin (singular) of the world. This is for the inherited Adamic nature and it allows God to resurrected all men - for "the wages of sin (singular) is death". This answers to the Sin Offering which Christ is the fulfillment of.
    2. Christ died for the sins (plural) of the world so that God might deal in both mercy and justice as He sees fit. That is why not all of the nations (including the nation of Israel, and including all mankind who did not get to hear the gospel) go to the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66 and Revelation 20. This answers to the Trespass Offering of which Christ is the grand fulfillment
    3. Christ imparted Eternal and Divine Life ONLY to the Believer
    4. Christ washed the bodies of ONLY the Believers. My example of Judas above is clear.
    5. Christ appoints the Kingdom ONLY to Believers. That is, ONLY believers might rule the earth in His everlasting Kingdom
    6. Christ is High Priest ONLY to Believers
    7. Christ resurrects ONLY Believers with Celestial glory. The rest of men, including Israelites, have Terrestrial glory in resurrection

    Concerning point number 4:
    • The animal offerings of the Temple of Ezekiel are ONLY for the nations, and ONLY for the cleansing of the FLESH - NOT THE REMOVAL OF SINS
    • The Temple of Ezekiel is patently different in construction and size to the Tabernacle and the Two Temples. This is because it is (i) a Palace for the King of kings, and (ii) it reflects the completed Work of Christ.
    • ONLY Christians are bodily clean. The nations and the nation of Israel REFUSED this cleansing, and so, when they live, work and visit Emmanuel in Ezekiel's Temple in the Millennium, their FLESH must be cleansed to uphold Emmanuel's holiness. Since they refused the Cleansing effected by Christ, they must be cleansed by the SAME GOD-GIVEN way that Israel was cleansed before - ANIMAL SACRIFICE. No jot or title of the Law will pass until the end of the Millennium, and God has not instituted any other way for CLEANSING OF THE PROFANE FLESH. The animal sacrifices of the Temple of Ezekiel ARE A LOGICAL CONCLUSION TO DEAL WITH THE FLESH (NOT SINS) OF MEN WHO WERE NOT WASHED BY CHRIST! The animal sacrifices of the Law of Moses CLEANSED THE PROFANE FLESH (even Aaron's) THEN, AND THEY WILL DO IT IN FUTURE

  6. #51
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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    No. I had Christ's All-Encompassing Sacrifice for believers, and animal sacrifices for CLEANSING the unbeliever WHEN HE/SHE IS REQUIRED TO HAVE AUDIENCE WITH EMMANUEL. You had Christ's complete efficacy for the unbeliever. No doubt you will stick to your theory, so I will say it again for the other readers;
    1. Christ died for the sin (singular) of the world. This is for the inherited Adamic nature and it allows God to resurrected all men - for "the wages of sin (singular) is death". This answers to the Sin Offering which Christ is the fulfillment of.
    2. Christ died for the sins (plural) of the world so that God might deal in both mercy and justice as He sees fit. That is why not all of the nations (including the nation of Israel, and including all mankind who did not get to hear the gospel) go to the Lake of Fire in Isaiah 66 and Revelation 20. This answers to the Trespass Offering of which Christ is the grand fulfillment
    3. Christ imparted Eternal and Divine Life ONLY to the Believer
    4. Christ washed the bodies of ONLY the Believers. My example of Judas above is clear.
    5. Christ appoints the Kingdom ONLY to Believers. That is, ONLY believers might rule the earth in His everlasting Kingdom
    6. Christ is High Priest ONLY to Believers
    7. Christ resurrects ONLY Believers with Celestial glory. The rest of men, including Israelites, have Terrestrial glory in resurrection

    Concerning point number 4:
    • The animal offerings of the Temple of Ezekiel are ONLY for the nations, and ONLY for the cleansing of the FLESH - NOT THE REMOVAL OF SINS
    • The Temple of Ezekiel is patently different in construction and size to the Tabernacle and the Two Temples. This is because it is (i) a Palace for the King of kings, and (ii) it reflects the completed Work of Christ.
    • ONLY Christians are bodily clean. The nations and the nation of Israel REFUSED this cleansing, and so, when they live, work and visit Emmanuel in Ezekiel's Temple in the Millennium, their FLESH must be cleansed to uphold Emmanuel's holiness. Since they refused the Cleansing effected by Christ, they must be cleansed by the SAME GOD-GIVEN way that Israel was cleansed before - ANIMAL SACRIFICE. No jot or title of the Law will pass until the end of the Millennium, and God has not instituted any other way for CLEANSING OF THE PROFANE FLESH. The animal sacrifices of the Temple of Ezekiel ARE A LOGICAL CONCLUSION TO DEAL WITH THE FLESH (NOT SINS) OF MEN WHO WERE NOT WASHED BY CHRIST! The animal sacrifices of the Law of Moses CLEANSED THE PROFANE FLESH (even Aaron's) THEN, AND THEY WILL DO IT IN FUTURE
    If that was God's way of reaching out to pagan nations, He would've had Israel proclaim the Law of Moses to the nations as an international system. He did not.

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If that was God's way of reaching out to pagan nations, He would've had Israel proclaim the Law of Moses to the nations as an international system. He did not.
    A very hard and to us; unacceptable, Bible truth is:
    Romans 9:22 But if it is indeed God's purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, can it be that He has, with great patience, tolerated vessels [peoples] that are objects for destruction.

    God first chose Abraham out of those peoples and he proved his faith, so was accepted to be the father of God's holy nation. Sadly that nation failed in their task and their visible entity today remains in rejection of God's Son, whom He sent to offer them Atonement.

    Therefore the Gospel was extended to all who would accept it and now it is all the faithful Christians who are God's people, His chosen ones. John 15:16-19, 1 Peter 2:9-10 The Promises of God to the Patriarchs and to Israel, now belong to every born again Christian. Ephesians 1:11-14, Romans 8:14-17
    The majority of Christians will be found to be actual descendants of Jacob, people who have lost their identity as Israelites.

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 2Cor.6:16

    Paul is quoting Eze.43:7. Ezekiels vision of the temple is how God sees us. It's a manifestation of the beauty of his people.

    Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 1Cor.3:16
    God also sees the church as this below

    Revelation 21:2 & 9-10

    2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

    9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by divaD View Post
    What is the point of the white throne judgment then? Will there be other white throne judgments throughout eternity,
    I would say God has always sat on a white throne. I don't think he pulls this out just for the GWT judgment...….

    Why would there still be judgment after that, for all eternity?
    How does God show he is king for all eternity. King only over all who only love and obey him? How shall he rule with a rod of iron, why is this needed, why a need for the river of life, healing fruit ? ect……..

    God will be king and will judge the affairs of mankind born throughout eternity.

    26 Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.
    27 My tabernacle also shall be with them: yea, I will be their God, and they shall be my people.
    28 And the heathen shall know that I the Lord do sanctify Israel, when my sanctuary shall be in the midst of them for evermore.

  10. #55
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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    If that was God's way of reaching out to pagan nations, He would've had Israel proclaim the Law of Moses to the nations as an international system. He did not.
    Your conclusions amaze me. The 7 points I listed are on offer to all men, but when I expound on those men who REFUSE the offer, you latch onto that as the central truth of my gospel. Amazing how the human mind works.

  11. #56

    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    God also sees the church as this below

    Revelation 21:2 & 9-10

    2 I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband.

    9 One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, “Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb.” 10 And he carried me away in the Spirit to a mountain great and high, and showed me the Holy City, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God.
    Right. We are the temple and city where God is.

    Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life. Jn.8:12

    And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it. Rev.21:24

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    I think of New Jerusalem the same way we represent the people as a nation here in America. Together, all citizens of USA make up the nation. In the same manner, the City of New Jerusalem is made up of its inhabited people. But the Wall is not made of people literally, and the gates are not the Apostles literally...

    1 Cor 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

    Ephesians 2:19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; 21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: 22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.

    This theology is being used by some to exclude a future LITERAL temple. (some exclude the millennial temple, and some the one that is coming before that, and some all temples all together...)

    ALL TOGETHER IN Christ (as a Body) we are indeed, a temple, a city, a Bride, and many other conglomerate collections. But just because we are, does not mean that a physical Temple and city can not exist AS WELL...

    The Ezekiel Temple will exist, because if not, God is a liar.

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Your conclusions amaze me. The 7 points I listed are on offer to all men, but when I expound on those men who REFUSE the offer, you latch onto that as the central truth of my gospel. Amazing how the human mind works.
    Your "gospel" is obviously designed to preserve the Law of Moses in some way, and to explain Ezekiel's Temple in that light. My approach is to interpret Paul and Hebrews as a complete rejection of the Law of Moses as an *outdated covenant.*

    With respect to your 7 points, I have trouble understanding what distinctions you make that are different from general Christian theology. Most Christians believe Christ died for the sins of the world so that only believers will benefit in the life to come.

    Where it gets confusing for me is when you try to explain Ezekiel's Temple as somehow continuing with the sacrificial system of the OT Law, as applied to unbelievers. This is, for me, contrary to NT doctrine.

    Cleansing the *flesh* of the nations, without removing their *sins,* makes no sense to me, and contradicts the centrality of the cross, which accomplished both with respect to all. It is no different from believer to unbeliever. The believer simply embraces the gospel, and so benefits, while the unbeliever does not. If the nations are not believers, they do not benefit--their flesh is not cleansed.

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Your "gospel" is obviously designed to preserve the Law of Moses in some way, and to explain Ezekiel's Temple in that light. My approach is to interpret Paul and Hebrews as a complete rejection of the Law of Moses as an *outdated covenant.*

    With respect to your 7 points, I have trouble understanding what distinctions you make that are different from general Christian theology. Most Christians believe Christ died for the sins of the world so that only believers will benefit in the life to come.

    Where it gets confusing for me is when you try to explain Ezekiel's Temple as somehow continuing with the sacrificial system of the OT Law, as applied to unbelievers. This is, for me, contrary to NT doctrine.

    Cleansing the *flesh* of the nations, without removing their *sins,* makes no sense to me, and contradicts the centrality of the cross, which accomplished both with respect to all. It is no different from believer to unbeliever. The believer simply embraces the gospel, and so benefits, while the unbeliever does not. If the nations are not believers, they do not benefit--their flesh is not cleansed.
    Remember: God does not change. Malachi 3:6, Hebrews 13:8
    God wanted a Temple twice before, He will have another Temple, as is plainly necessary to fulfil the prophesies. 2 Thess 2:4, Revelation 11:1-2
    God wanted sacrifices before, He will again, many verses prove it. Do you dispute Isaiah 56:6-7? I will type it out, it is irrefutable;

    Also, all the peoples who join themselves to the Lord, who serve Him and love His Name, all who keep the Sabbath unprofained and who take hold of My [New] Covenant. These, I shall bring to My Holy place and give them joy in My House of prayer. Their burnt offerings and sacrifices will be accepted on My Altar, for My House shall be called the House of Prayer for all the nations.

    That it makes no sense to you, is explained by Isaiah 55:8

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    Re: ezekiel's temple #1000

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Your "gospel" is obviously designed to preserve the Law of Moses in some way, and to explain Ezekiel's Temple in that light. My approach is to interpret Paul and Hebrews as a complete rejection of the Law of Moses as an *outdated covenant.*

    With respect to your 7 points, I have trouble understanding what distinctions you make that are different from general Christian theology. Most Christians believe Christ died for the sins of the world so that only believers will benefit in the life to come.

    Where it gets confusing for me is when you try to explain Ezekiel's Temple as somehow continuing with the sacrificial system of the OT Law, as applied to unbelievers. This is, for me, contrary to NT doctrine.
    OK. I quit!

    It was not me who said that the Law would NOT pass in any point UNTIL heaven and earth passed. Since heaven and earth pass AFTER the Millennium, the Law, by decree of Jesus Christ, REMAINS! The Covenant of which it made up the CONDITIONS is REPLACED, but the CONDITIONS - the Law, do not.

    The Law ALWAYS applied to "UNBELIEVERS". Israel is given, and has the Law, AND IS IN UNBELIEF!

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Cleansing the *flesh* of the nations, without removing their *sins,* makes no sense to me, and contradicts the centrality of the cross, which accomplished both with respect to all. It is no different from believer to unbeliever. The believer simply embraces the gospel, and so benefits, while the unbeliever does not. If the nations are not believers, they do not benefit--their flesh is not cleansed.
    How many times did I say that Christ's death took the sins of the whole world away, and how many times did I quote John 1:29 and 2nd John 2:2 - and you still make a statement like this!

    Nevertheless, God bless (genuinely)

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