false equivalencies in prophecy

[Fenris]

I agree with you, but then what if WE are the problem, misinterpreting or not listening to the Lord's words? He IS speaking clearly, we just don't want to hear what He says...

I don't think there's a problem. I am following the plain text.

[TrustGzus]

As I indicate in another thread, I’m convinced there is a very unhealthy over fascination with eschatology.

We, as a church generally speaking (not universally) do treat prophecy like a crystal ball. Is it possible that God wasn’t just concerned about the instrument of finding out the future but just the whole concept?

The secret things do belong to the LORD and I think the future is more secret than revealed.

Prophecy can be foretelling and forthtelling. I think more of it is the latter and much of the former is fulfilled. The idea of “the near and the far” fulfillment isn’t a law for all prophecy.

Too many today approach their Bible with newspaper in hand looking to cross-reference it with their Bible. Why? Where does the Bible suggest this approach?

As I read prophets, most of it is corrective. It calls ancient nations to repent. It describes what they do and calls them to stop.

Revelation is written to seven struggling, persecuted churches in Asia Minor. How has the church turned 19 chapters into puzzles for our time to solve? What do these 19 chapters have to say to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? A lot of Revelation studies (most?) forget about those seven churches by the time chapter 4 rolls around.

The prophets and Revelation were written in real time to real people who were the primary, target audience. We are secondary. But that is so often reversed if the target audience isn’t jettisoned altogether. When these things happen, we aren’t benefiting from the book properly. To benefit properly, we must understand it in its original context to its target audience.

This will be offensive, but I think It’s true. Too many Christians handle prophecy like the left handles the Constitution. Be an Originalist Christian. Read the prophets as they were written in their time to their target audience. Once you have that down, then you can better understand how a prophet can be understood to speak to our time and place.

[Soldier_of_Faith]

I don't think there's a problem. I am following the plain text.

Yet we see in scripture people who were given direct communication from God, and they went the other direction... Was he any different than you or I? Or was Jonah?

[Fenris]

Yet we see in scripture people who were given direct communication from God, and they went the other direction... Was he any different than you or I? Or was Jonah?

Jonah didn't make a mistake or misunderstand his orders. He chose not to follow them out. Just stick to the plain text. I like what TrustGzus says in the post above yours.

[Keraz]

Ah. Look who peeked in.

Warnings given to the generation that saw exile happened to the generation that saw exile. It's not a difficult concept.

Christians usually don't, though. That's how they build their whole case: A "spiritualized" reading of the text.

Bible prophesies telling of dramatic cosmic and earthly events, just haven't happened yet.
And there's no need to spiritualize prophesies like:

Deuteronomy 32:34-43...... When I set my hand to judgement, My sword will devour flesh.
Isaiah 66:16 The Lord will judge with fire and many will be slain by Him.
Psalms 37:9-10 & 20 For evildoers will be no more, their place will be empty. Evil people will die, they will be incinerated and will go up in smoke.
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace...on the Day the Lord takes action, all wicked peoples will be as ashes under your feet.
Zephaniah 1:3 & 11 I shall destroy humans and animals. Dire distress will come upon all the godless peoples, their blood and guts will spill over the ground.
Psalms 97:3-5 For My sword is ready and it descends upon those doomed for death. Fire goes ahead of the Lord and consumes His enemies on every side.
Isaiah 63:6 The Lord stamped on peoples in His anger, their blood poured out on the ground.Revelation 14:17-20
Isaiah 54:6 ...though the sky be dispersed, the earth be wasted and its inhabitants die like flies.
Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain in that Day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.
Jeremiah 9:22 Corpses will lie like dung in the fields, like swaths behind the reaper.
Isaiah 34:3 The dead will be flung out and will cover the ground, their bodies will stink.
Isaiah 13:12 Humans will become scarce, more rare than fine gold.

The nations who attack the holy Land;
Ezekiel 7:14-16 The trumpet has sounded, but no one goes to war, because their turmoil has called forth My wrath. Those outside will die and those in the cities, by plague and famine. If any escape to the hills, there I shall kill them, for their sins.
Isaiah 10:23 The Light of Israel will become a fire that will in one Day burn up and consume His enemies.
Jeremiah 49:37 I shall break Elam, [Iran] My fierce anger will bring disaster to them.
Psalms 83:13-15 Scatter them, Lord with Your fire and storm winds....

Ezekiel 30:4-5 Egypt will suffer anguish, her slain will fall along with all the Arab lands.
Ezekiel 32:6 & 15 I shall drench Egypt with blood, the whole land will become empty.
Zephaniah 2:12 You Cu****es [Africa] also will be slain by the sword of the Lord.
Jeremiah 50:27 Put all warriors to the sword, lead them to slaughter, for their time has come.

The Lord’s people, Israel and Judah;
Isaiah 34:6 The Lord has a sword covered in blood.... He has a great slaughter in Bozrah and Edom. Bozrah- where the 10 tribes live. Edom- Non Israelite peoples.
Jeremiah 11:16 Once you were My people, now with a great noise, you will be burnt and consumed.
Isaiah 5:25 The Lord’s anger is roused against His people and as He strikes them down, the mountains shake. Their bodies lie like dung in the streets.
Ezekiel 21:3 & 8-11 My sword will kill both righteous and wicked alike from the Negev northward. A sword is ready to kill and kill again, polished to flash like lightning, terrible will be the slaughter. Ref: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.

[TrustGzus]

Bible prophesies telling of dramatic cosmic and earthly events, just haven't happened yet.

You take it more literally than the apostles. Peter said in Acts 2.....

Acts 2:16–21 (AV): But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter says at Pentecost “this is that” and he quotes the portion of Joel with dramatic cosmic and earthly events. I repeat, Peter said this is that.

So I can go with Peter who said this is that or go with you who says it hasn’t happened yet.

Okay. Jump through hoops now to show Peter doesn’t mean what he said.

[Keraz]

You take it more literally than the apostles. Peter said in Acts 2.....

Acts 2:16–21 (AV): But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel; 17 And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: 18 And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy: 19 And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke: 20 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come: 21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Peter says at Pentecost “this is that” and he quotes the portion of Joel with dramatic cosmic and earthly events. I repeat, Peter said this is that.

So I can go with Peter who said this is that or go with you who says it hasn’t happened yet.

Okay. Jump through hoops now to show Peter doesn’t mean what he said.

No jumping required.
There was a taste of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy at that Pentecost time. But it did not last and it didn't involve the cosmic prophecies.

Peter simply reiterated Joel and he does again in 2 Peter 3:7. We have been warned of a forthcoming sudden and shocking event, with cosmic signs and wonders. The scriptures I posted in #20 can and will literally come to pass. Why shouldn't we who read the prophesies be aware and prepared for it all?

[TrustGzus]

No jumping required.
There was a taste of the Joel 2:28-32 prophecy at that Pentecost time. But it did not last and it didn't involve the cosmic prophecies.

Peter simply reiterated Joel and he does again in 2 Peter 3:7. We have been warned of a forthcoming sudden and shocking event, with cosmic signs and wonders. The scriptures I posted in #20 can and will literally come to pass. Why shouldn't we who read the prophesies be aware and prepared for it all?

So this is not that. This is merely a taste of that.

[randyk]

It's really not.

Leviticus 19: You shall not act on the basis of omens or lucky hours....Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God....

Leviticus 20: Whoever turns to mediums or spiritists to prostitute himself with them, I will also set My face against that person and cut him off from his people....A man or a woman who is a medium or a spiritist must surely be put to death. They shall be stoned; their blood is upon them...

Deuteronomy 18: Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in the fire, practices divination or conjury, interprets omens, practices sorcery, casts spells, consults a medium or familiar spirit, or inquires of the dead.

Reading tea leaves is just a saying, referring to making an educated guess. It doesn't refer, in this sense, to an occultic practice!

[Fenris]

Bible prophesies telling of dramatic cosmic and earthly events, just haven't happened yet.
And there's no need to spiritualize prophesies like:

Most of which occurred shortly after the warning. These were prophecies about the destruction of king Solomon's temple and the Babylonian exile, and they happened a long long time ago.

[Fenris]

Reading tea leaves is just a saying, referring to making an educated guess. It doesn't refer, in this sense, to an occultic practice!

Good, good, no occult practices!

[Keraz]

Most of which occurred shortly after the warning. These were prophecies about the destruction of king Solomon's temple and the Babylonian exile, and they happened a long long time ago.

Please provide scriptures or even a historical reference to prophesies like these, having happened in the past:

Deuteronomy 32:41 When I set my hand to judgement, My sword will devour flesh.
Isaiah 66:16 The Lord will judge with fire and many will be slain by Him.
Psalms 37:9-10 & 20 For evildoers will be no more, their place will be empty. Evil people will die, they will be incinerated and will go up in smoke.
Malachi 4:1 The Day comes, burning like a furnace...on the Day the Lord takes action, all wicked peoples will be as ashes under your feet.
Zephaniah 1:3 & 11 I shall destroy humans and animals. Dire distress will come upon all the godless peoples, their blood and guts will spill over the ground.
Psalms 97:3-5 For My sword is ready and it descends upon those doomed for death. Fire goes ahead of the Lord and consumes His enemies on every side.
Isaiah 63:6 The Lord stamped on peoples in His anger, their blood poured out on the ground.
Isaiah 54:6 ...though the sky be dispersed, the earth be wasted and its inhabitants die like flies.
Jeremiah 25:33 Those whom the Lord has slain in that Day will lie scattered from one end of the earth to the other.
Jeremiah 9:22 Corpses will lie like dung in the fields, like swaths behind the reaper.
Isaiah 34:3 The dead will be flung out and will cover the ground, their bodies will stink.
Isaiah 13:12 Humans will become scarce, more rare than fine gold.

[Fenris]

Please provide scriptures or even a historical reference to prophesies like these, having happened in the past:
.

Have you read the book of Lamentations? Jews around the world will read it this Saturday night as we mourn the loss of the temple. It's not prophecy, it's all about the destruction of the first temple as recorded by Jeremiah. That's the historical reference.

[FreedMan]

As I indicate in another thread, I’m convinced there is a very unhealthy over fascination with eschatology.

We, as a church generally speaking (not universally) do treat prophecy like a crystal ball. Is it possible that God wasn’t just concerned about the instrument of finding out the future but just the whole concept?

The secret things do belong to the LORD and I think the future is more secret than revealed.

Prophecy can be foretelling and forthtelling. I think more of it is the latter and much of the former is fulfilled. The idea of “the near and the far” fulfillment isn’t a law for all prophecy.

Too many today approach their Bible with newspaper in hand looking to cross-reference it with their Bible. Why? Where does the Bible suggest this approach?

As I read prophets, most of it is corrective. It calls ancient nations to repent. It describes what they do and calls them to stop.

Revelation is written to seven struggling, persecuted churches in Asia Minor. How has the church turned 19 chapters into puzzles for our time to solve? What do these 19 chapters have to say to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? A lot of Revelation studies (most?) forget about those seven churches by the time chapter 4 rolls around.

The prophets and Revelation were written in real time to real people who were the primary, target audience. We are secondary. But that is so often reversed if the target audience isn’t jettisoned altogether. When these things happen, we aren’t benefiting from the book properly. To benefit properly, we must understand it in its original context to its target audience.

This will be offensive, but I think It’s true. Too many Christians handle prophecy like the left handles the Constitution. Be an Originalist Christian. Read the prophets as they were written in their time to their target audience. Once you have that down, then you can better understand how a prophet can be understood to speak to our time and place.

Amen! Brother, I say Amen!

That's why I was happy to meet the good Son of Abrahan, Fenris, just a short while ago. I think some Christians treat the end times and the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (by the way, even the title let's you know its about Jesus and not about ARmeggdon) like astrology.

[randyk]

As I indicate in another thread, I’m convinced there is a very unhealthy over fascination with eschatology.

We, as a church generally speaking (not universally) do treat prophecy like a crystal ball. Is it possible that God wasn’t just concerned about the instrument of finding out the future but just the whole concept?

The secret things do belong to the LORD and I think the future is more secret than revealed.

Prophecy can be foretelling and forthtelling. I think more of it is the latter and much of the former is fulfilled. The idea of “the near and the far” fulfillment isn’t a law for all prophecy.

Too many today approach their Bible with newspaper in hand looking to cross-reference it with their Bible. Why? Where does the Bible suggest this approach?

As I read prophets, most of it is corrective. It calls ancient nations to repent. It describes what they do and calls them to stop.

Revelation is written to seven struggling, persecuted churches in Asia Minor. How has the church turned 19 chapters into puzzles for our time to solve? What do these 19 chapters have to say to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? A lot of Revelation studies (most?) forget about those seven churches by the time chapter 4 rolls around.

The prophets and Revelation were written in real time to real people who were the primary, target audience. We are secondary. But that is so often reversed if the target audience isn’t jettisoned altogether. When these things happen, we aren’t benefiting from the book properly. To benefit properly, we must understand it in its original context to its target audience.

This will be offensive, but I think It’s true. Too many Christians handle prophecy like the left handles the Constitution. Be an Originalist Christian. Read the prophets as they were written in their time to their target audience. Once you have that down, then you can better understand how a prophet can be understood to speak to our time and place.

Some really solid points here. It deserves its own thread. Maybe I'll try to start one?