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Thread: false equivalencies in prophecy

  1. #31
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    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedMan View Post
    Amen! Brother, I say Amen!

    That's why I was happy to meet the good Son of Abrahan, Fenris, just a short while ago. I think some Christians treat the end times and the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ (by the way, even the title let's you know its about Jesus and not about ARmeggdon) like astrology.
    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Some really solid points here. It deserves its own thread. Maybe I'll try to start one?
    Thank you kindly, FreedMan & Randy. Feel free to start a thread if youíd like.

    In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in all things, charity. - Rupertus Meldenius

    Read your Bible and pray every single day. - Pastor Jon Courson

    If your grace ain't greasier than a bucket full of chitlin's and gravy, you might be a legalist - an internet friend.

  2. #32
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    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    As I indicate in another thread, Iím convinced there is a very unhealthy over fascination with eschatology.

    We, as a church generally speaking (not universally) do treat prophecy like a crystal ball. Is it possible that God wasnít just concerned about the instrument of finding out the future but just the whole concept?

    The secret things do belong to the LORD and I think the future is more secret than revealed.

    Prophecy can be foretelling and forthtelling. I think more of it is the latter and much of the former is fulfilled. The idea of ďthe near and the farĒ fulfillment isnít a law for all prophecy.

    Too many today approach their Bible with newspaper in hand looking to cross-reference it with their Bible. Why? Where does the Bible suggest this approach?

    As I read prophets, most of it is corrective. It calls ancient nations to repent. It describes what they do and calls them to stop.

    Revelation is written to seven struggling, persecuted churches in Asia Minor. How has the church turned 19 chapters into puzzles for our time to solve? What do these 19 chapters have to say to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea? A lot of Revelation studies (most?) forget about those seven churches by the time chapter 4 rolls around.

    The prophets and Revelation were written in real time to real people who were the primary, target audience. We are secondary. But that is so often reversed if the target audience isnít jettisoned altogether. When these things happen, we arenít benefiting from the book properly. To benefit properly, we must understand it in its original context to its target audience.

    This will be offensive, but I think Itís true. Too many Christians handle prophecy like the left handles the Constitution. Be an Originalist Christian. Read the prophets as they were written in their time to their target audience. Once you have that down, then you can better understand how a prophet can be understood to speak to our time and place.
    How vert true every prophecy is also a message to the people that it was written too. We need to read the book of Revelation standing in the sandles of the people it was written to the seven churches and wonder what it meant to them.

    There is a messages in each chapter of revelation which points to Jesus its not all about trying to understand it all but it is to hear the message

  3. #33

    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    You are absolutely right about historical context, however I think correctly interpreting prophecy is VERY important. If 25% of the Bible is prophecy, not understanding it means we're not understanding 25% of the Bible. Moreover, we won't have a correct context for the other 75% either because we aren't grasping God's "grand plan."

    If we don't understand that most of Revelation is already fulfilled, then we're engaged in endless speculation about the future and countless hours of wasted time for the church as a whole. How many hours have been wasted on producing and consuming YouTube videos that are based on the lie that it's all happening in OUR future.

    The biggest problem is we don't take the plain, didactive time passages literally. On the other hand we take the obvious poetic imagery literally. That's exactly backward. For example, the first 10 verses of Revelation Chapter One are pretty much straight forward didactic introductory statements of who, what, when, where and why. The entire rest of the book has to be interpreted in light of those 10 verses.

    When verse 1-3 says it's all going to happen "shortly" and the "time is near" the plain, normal, everyday meaning of those phrases is NOT 2000+ years in OUR future. It should be obvious the only thing answering to those time indicators is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Instead, countless hours are wasted giving the Greek words a meaning that is the exact opposite of the literal rendering.

    Even the translators do it. Check the Greek and you'll see the transliteration meaning of the Greek words in Rev 1:19 is "are about to come to pass" NOT "shall take place."

    If fact, Jesus stated in excruciatingly clear language that the Great Tribulation occurred IMMEDIATELY after the Christians fled from Jerusalem at the approach of the Roman armies and that there would never be a worse great tribulation in OUR future (Mt 24:21). If you say there are two Great Tribulations then you make Jesus a liar when He said, "For THEN there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER SHALL."

    Likewise, everybody completely ignores the context of the Olivette Discourse. He was answering the disciples' question about when the stones of THAT temple -- Herod's temple -- would be scattered, thus signifying the end of the OT age of animal sacrifices.

    Plus, we make up interpretations of the symbolism, instead of going to the Old Testament for definitions. For example, everybody assumes the clothing of the harlot in Revelation 17 is that of the Roman Catholic Church, when it's an exact description of that worn by the Jewish high priest in Exodus 39:3. Revelation 11:8 identifies the Great City of Revelation 17 as Jerusalem plain as day. The harlot riding the Roman Beast is clearly the 1st Century apostate Jews in league with Rome to crucify Christ.

    All you have to do is pick up a few easy to read books like "Last Days Madness" or "An Eschatology of Victory" and the symbolism will become very clear for you.

  4. #34

    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    Quote Originally Posted by skyking2 View Post
    Even the translators do it. Check the Greek and you'll see the transliteration meaning of the Greek words in Rev 1:19 is "are about to come to pass" NOT "shall take place."
    No. The word "G3195 - mellei" carries the meaning of "is certain to [take place]," as in, things prophesied to CERTAINLY take place ("after these things"... i.e. future to these things). And then the sequence given in the Olivet Discourse (with "the beginning of birth pangs" of Matt24:4-8 and Mk13:5-8 matching Lk21:8-11) showing "But BEFORE all these [BEFORE all the beginning of birth pangs]" the events of 70ad must occur [described in the verses FOLLOWING, in that section], shows clearly that "the beginning of birth pangs" comes "after these things" (AFTER the events of 70ad). These are [in Rev] the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN, not adverb here]." (1:1 comp. with 4:1). Etc (much more could be said regarding this, but it is late)...


    ["G3195 - mello" cpl examples: Col2:17 - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/colossians/2-17.htm ; 1Tim6:19 - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_timothy/6-19.htm ; Eph1:21 - http://biblehub.com/text/ephesians/1-21.htm ]

  5. #35
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    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    Quote Originally Posted by skyking2 View Post
    You are absolutely right about historical context, however I think correctly interpreting prophecy is VERY important. If 25% of the Bible is prophecy, not understanding it means we're not understanding 25% of the Bible. Moreover, we won't have a correct context for the other 75% either because we aren't grasping God's "grand plan."

    If we don't understand that most of Revelation is already fulfilled, then we're engaged in endless speculation about the future and countless hours of wasted time for the church as a whole. How many hours have been wasted on producing and consuming YouTube videos that are based on the lie that it's all happening in OUR future.

    The biggest problem is we don't take the plain, didactive time passages literally. On the other hand we take the obvious poetic imagery literally. That's exactly backward. For example, the first 10 verses of Revelation Chapter One are pretty much straight forward didactic introductory statements of who, what, when, where and why. The entire rest of the book has to be interpreted in light of those 10 verses.

    When verse 1-3 says it's all going to happen "shortly" and the "time is near" the plain, normal, everyday meaning of those phrases is NOT 2000+ years in OUR future. It should be obvious the only thing answering to those time indicators is the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 a.d. Instead, countless hours are wasted giving the Greek words a meaning that is the exact opposite of the literal rendering.

    Even the translators do it. Check the Greek and you'll see the transliteration meaning of the Greek words in Rev 1:19 is "are about to come to pass" NOT "shall take place."

    If fact, Jesus stated in excruciatingly clear language that the Great Tribulation occurred IMMEDIATELY after the Christians fled from Jerusalem at the approach of the Roman armies and that there would never be a worse great tribulation in OUR future (Mt 24:21). If you say there are two Great Tribulations then you make Jesus a liar when He said, "For THEN there will be a great tribulation such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, NOR EVER SHALL."

    Likewise, everybody completely ignores the context of the Olivette Discourse. He was answering the disciples' question about when the stones of THAT temple -- Herod's temple -- would be scattered, thus signifying the end of the OT age of animal sacrifices.

    Plus, we make up interpretations of the symbolism, instead of going to the Old Testament for definitions. For example, everybody assumes the clothing of the harlot in Revelation 17 is that of the Roman Catholic Church, when it's an exact description of that worn by the Jewish high priest in Exodus 39:3. Revelation 11:8 identifies the Great City of Revelation 17 as Jerusalem plain as day. The harlot riding the Roman Beast is clearly the 1st Century apostate Jews in league with Rome to crucify Christ.

    All you have to do is pick up a few easy to read books like "Last Days Madness" or "An Eschatology of Victory" and the symbolism will become very clear for you.
    Well said Jerusalem is definitely Babylon the great

  6. #36
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    Re: false equivalencies in prophecy

    Quote Originally Posted by marty fox View Post
    Well said Jerusalem is definitely Babylon the great
    Disagree... Jerusalem does not sit on 7 hills... Babylon the Great does. Jerusalem is not a Seaport with Ships that trade with it. Trucks and trains trade with it. Spiritually, Babylon represents Jerusalem. I have no problem with that.

    I believe Babylon will be a city that will rise up out of world wide affliction as nations war against nations and famines and pestilence and cataclysmic catastrophes are poured out upon the earth near or in the end times. It will be a Giant seaport Hub that collect and distribute all of the BEAST Government's wealth and commodities. It does not exist yet, because the earth does not "need" anything like that currently. BUT, as the 7 seals are opened, those "needs" will arise that cause Babylon to NEED TO EXIST. And it rises up and is carried on the BACK OF THE BEAST, which does not exist as of yet either.

    So before the city Babylon exists, the Beast must Exist. Its near, certainly, but not here yet.

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