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Thread: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

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    Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; imparted the knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve as they lost their innocence.
    IMO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment.

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by glfglf View Post
    The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; imparted the knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve as they lost their innocence.
    IMO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment.
    It is a bit more complicated than that.

    The first thing is that "EATING" is to partake of the fruit of that Tree organically. The fruit becomes ONE with the person. If a man eats a fig and we open him up a day later, we will not find the fig. The fig has been assimilated by the man and now courses through his system giving him all that goes with a fig. He is organically one with the fig. And even the best surgeon cannot remove or undo the process. Thus, when Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil, he partook organically of all that fruit had to offer. And its offer was death.

    The best example of this is found in Numbers 21. For murmuring over God's dealings, God sent fiery serpents among the hoard. When bitten, the "fruit" of this serpent, it issue - poison, coursed through the veins of the bitten and became organically one with the bitten. Its result was that after a time, because of the organic union of man and poison, he died.

    Now, Adam and Eve ate of this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before they had children. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set an immutable principle in His creation. That is, everything with seed in itself would produce exactly the same sort. Cats have kittens, dogs have puppies and a fox can never produce a dog since, though they look alike, they are a different specie. So by the time Adam and Eve had their children, they were organically one with the "death fruit". So death set in for Adam, but the tragedy was that they passed on their "death-nature" to their children. So Romans 5:12-14 says; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned, ... Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Adam's mortality, being part of his organism, passed on to all men.

    Thus, when a baby is conceived, that is, when the "seed" (sperm) of the man embeds itself in the woman's egg, the "sin" nature of the man is transmitted, whether he likes it or not. "Death passed upon all men."

    The good news is that among the multiple things that our Lord Jesus achieved by His life and death, one of the grandest was that he died for the "sin" (singular) of the world (Jn.1:29). Generally, and especially in the Book of Romans, the Bible uses the word "sin" in the singular to depict the "death-nature" of Adam - the one that he passes on to all men. The death of our Lord Jesus was the "payment" before God for this "sin-nature", and this gives God the right to abolish death. So ALL men who were IN Adam, and who inherited this death nature, and die, will be raised to life (1st Cor.15:22-24).

    The last note on this matter is that because Mary conceived, NOT by a man, our Lord Jesus was the only Man ever to be without this "sin-nature" - for Romans 5:12 above says the MAN passes on this nature. This means TWO things:
    1. Our Lord Jesus did not have the nature that drove Him to commit sin. We who have Adam's sin-nature commit SINS (plural) or "Trespasses" BY NATURE. But our Lord Jesus never had this tendency. And so when He was sorely tempted, He was able to pas through the temptations without sinning (Heb.4:15). This made Him a Lamb "without blemish".
    2. Our Lord Jesus did not have to die like all other men. This made Him worthy, if he so chose, to die for other men. A man can die for his sin and sins, but only for his own. Only a Man WITHOUT the sin-nature can die for another.

    Hope this helps.

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    It is a bit more complicated than that.

    The first thing is that "EATING" is to partake of the fruit of that Tree organically. The fruit becomes ONE with the person. If a man eats a fig and we open him up a day later, we will not find the fig. The fig has been assimilated by the man and now courses through his system giving him all that goes with a fig. He is organically one with the fig. And even the best surgeon cannot remove or undo the process. Thus, when Adam ate of the Tree of Knowledge of God and Evil, he partook organically of all that fruit had to offer. And its offer was death.

    The best example of this is found in Numbers 21. For murmuring over God's dealings, God sent fiery serpents among the hoard. When bitten, the "fruit" of this serpent, it issue - poison, coursed through the veins of the bitten and became organically one with the bitten. Its result was that after a time, because of the organic union of man and poison, he died.

    Now, Adam and Eve ate of this Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil before they had children. In Genesis 1:11-12 God set an immutable principle in His creation. That is, everything with seed in itself would produce exactly the same sort. Cats have kittens, dogs have puppies and a fox can never produce a dog since, though they look alike, they are a different specie. So by the time Adam and Eve had their children, they were organically one with the "death fruit". So death set in for Adam, but the tragedy was that they passed on their "death-nature" to their children. So Romans 5:12-14 says; "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned, ... Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come." Adam's mortality, being part of his organism, passed on to all men.

    Thus, when a baby is conceived, that is, when the "seed" (sperm) of the man embeds itself in the woman's egg, the "sin" nature of the man is transmitted, whether he likes it or not. "Death passed upon all men."

    The good news is that among the multiple things that our Lord Jesus achieved by His life and death, one of the grandest was that he died for the "sin" (singular) of the world (Jn.1:29). Generally, and especially in the Book of Romans, the Bible uses the word "sin" in the singular to depict the "death-nature" of Adam - the one that he passes on to all men. The death of our Lord Jesus was the "payment" before God for this "sin-nature", and this gives God the right to abolish death. So ALL men who were IN Adam, and who inherited this death nature, and die, will be raised to life (1st Cor.15:22-24).

    The last note on this matter is that because Mary conceived, NOT by a man, our Lord Jesus was the only Man ever to be without this "sin-nature" - for Romans 5:12 above says the MAN passes on this nature. This means TWO things:
    1. Our Lord Jesus did not have the nature that drove Him to commit sin. We who have Adam's sin-nature commit SINS (plural) or "Trespasses" BY NATURE. But our Lord Jesus never had this tendency. And so when He was sorely tempted, He was able to pas through the temptations without sinning (Heb.4:15). This made Him a Lamb "without blemish".
    2. Our Lord Jesus did not have to die like all other men. This made Him worthy, if he so chose, to die for other men. A man can die for his sin and sins, but only for his own. Only a Man WITHOUT the sin-nature can die for another.

    Hope this helps.
    Great peace Walls, just one thing. The Sin mentioned is not the eating of the tree and this is why. Rom. 5:12 — 6:8 deals with the mystery mentioned Rom. 16:25 — 27. Rom. 5:12 — 21 is not about sins but about sin, not about disobedience to the law of conscience by the Gentiles, nor about the law of Sinai by the Jew, but about the crime of Adam that the failure of Jew and Gentile explains. We are set here before the depth of the corruption of human nature, which shows why there is no good living in the flesh, and that all have deviated. The cause is the law of sin and of death. But, and this is the Divine, opposite is Christ's work set and the dominion of grace.

    The decline to Adam means that we do not find the terms Jew and Gentile, Israel and the nations, circumcision and foreskin. The whole generation is traded in its base unit. It is not about rescued and lost, believers and unbelievers, there is only talk about two persons and they control and radically influence the entire generation. A comparison is made between the first and the last Adam, the first who brought death to all, the last who not only lifts this death but brings on all a mercy that justifies their lives and an abundance of grace for many to make them rule, giving more than what the first one has lost. In one word, the sovereignty of sin, caused by Adam, is replaced by the much more intense and sublime reign of grace made by Christ.

    Adam and Christ are compared, so there are similarities and differences. Just look:

    Similarity: 12 — 14 Wherfore
    Opposite: 15
    16 — 17
    But not as
    And not as
    Similarity: 18
    19
    Therefore
    For as
    Opposite: 20 Offence abound — grace overabound

    Adam killed everyone. Christ can not surpass him in this. His salvation, however, is of equal scope. When, however, the effects of Christ's work are contrasted to Adam's crime, there is always an outpouring on Christ's side. Christ was destined to do much more for every child of Adam than Adam did. The reign of death and sin, v. 14, 21 is replaced by the reign of grace that has become much more abundant.

    V 12. Wherefore. Apparently this conjunction compiles the first part of the chapter with the second and gives the impression of drawing a conclusion from the foregoing. Yet it does not do this but it goes on a completely different line and introduces something entirely new. In chapter 2:1 we find something similar. It is therefore a transitional word and opens a new part, namely that in which a whole new light is cast upon the work of Christ. It does not return to the foregoing but leads to the following: the hidden mystery.

    Sin has come in by one person. According to Gen. 3 not one man but two people have brought sin into the world. Eve saw that the tree was good for food, she took of its fruit, ate, gave also her husband, and he ate, Gen. 3:6. It was she who was deceived and in transgression, 1 Tim. 2:14. Nevertheless, in Rom. 5 is not the contrast Eve — Christ but Adam — Christ. Now there are explanations for this, in which it is said that the authority and the headship were not in her but in Adam, that he could only permit sin in the world, but all of this is not able to decisively declare the one.

    This « one » is no less than nine times in this section used:
    — sin came in by one man, v. 12, 16,
    — there was the crime of one, vs. 12, 17, 18,
    one was disobedient, vs. 19,
    — Grace comes by One, v. 15,
    — by One comes the abundance of grace, v. 17,
    — by One the many are made righteous, v. 19.

    Just as now the One, Christ, are not two, neither is the one, Adam, two.

    Sin has entered the world through one person. Not by two. Sin is not a transgression but an error, a goal-missing. Gen. 3, however, shows a transgression which is not the same. Thus in Rom. 5 something revealed that is concealed in Gen. 3.

    Adam's sin. Sin has a source from which it rises. James indicates that it is the desire. « But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. » Jam. 1:14, 15. Here we are assigned the fivefold process:

    — being deducted,
    — to be enticed,
    — the receiving of the desire,
    — the giving birth of sin,
    — leading to death.

    Adam also went through this path as the first man, he was deducted or alienated from God, lured to something else, then the desire rooted, it gave birth to sin (the error) and it led to death.

    In what way did Adam's sin now exist? Adam was created to the image of God. This Image is He who later appeared as Christ, 2 Cor. 4:4. It had the human form and as such Adam has been created by it. Inwardly he got a gift that raised him above the animal and he had understanding and will. He was completely a living-soul, Gen. 2:7 but in order to be perfect, that is to say, finished, still had to go a way. Where the Image of God is neither man nor woman, Adam was not either, he had a higher unity within him.

    He was created outside the Garden, 2:8, later he was placed there. There he gave the animals names. Then there came a moment when he was deducted from the Lord. He no longer regarded His visits as the highest good, the earthly lured him, and a different desire arose in him. This was to another, a female being. He saw the animals, but he did not find a companion for himself, Gen. 2:19, 20. The enticement became desire now, his « I-ness » placed itself there and then the spiritual conception took place. The result was sin: he went to search. This follows from Gen. 2:20: « ... but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him ».

    The word « to find » has in Scripture, as in our language, essentially two meanings: it may mean that one wishes to recover something that one misses, Mk. 1:37 or lost, Lk. 15:4, 9 etc. or that one desires to get, meet or see something that one has not yet, Mt. 2:11; 7:8: 8:10; 11:29: 21:2 etc. Now Adam did not lose the help like the father the son in Lk. 15 and we can not take it in the sense that something was lost, so it must be taken in the second sense, namely of covet. Now coveting can be a good inclination: one can, for example, find peace (seek and), Mt. 11:29, or a treasure, 13:44 etc. but also express a sinful inclination: the great debtor found the small, Mt. 18:28. We must accept an impure desire from Adam. He was a perfect man, had masculine and feminine in a higher unity: the powerful and gentle, the true spirit and the pure feeling, but he derailed, in his being, something inexplicable but something that, in fact, in the elaboration, came out in the search. It was this desire that gave birth to sin, the goal-missing.

    From this background we find nothing in Gen. 3. It is concealed. Israel could not understand this. They were taught the monogamous marriage, that of husband and wife. But this is not from Adam's creation, it is, as everyone can read, from later time. In Mt. 19:18 The Lord therefore does not say that it was from the beginning, as the KJV says but from a beginning: there is no definite article here.

    Marriage is there by a second creation. That is clear from Gen. 1:26: First God created man, ha adam, then He created again. Wherever creation is to produce something that is not there as such, there was first no man (and no woman) but only a man, an undivided man. Then God created a man and a woman from that undivided man. The twofold « created » is proof of this insight.

    Apart from sin, there would have been another way of multiplication then by marriage, one in which man had not produced a male or female child, but an undivided human child. Furthermore, we will have to assume that once God is all in all, the natural multiplication ceases as it ceases for those who have obtained a glorified body.

    That the first people had already fallen before eating of the tree of knowledge is evident from more than one thing. Eve was under the influence of the senses, she saw what is before her eyes that the tree was good for food, the lust of the flesh, that it was a delight to the eyes, the lust of the eyes, even a tree to make wise, and to be as God, the pride of life. All this was not from God but from the world, as John calls it later, 1 John 2:16. Moreover, she was deceived by Satan, who most likely appeared to her as an angel of light in a shining form, 2 Cor. 11:3, and whom she did not recognize, what she would surely have done if she had been in the right state, Adam followed her without any resistance and thus proved being in that sphere. They proved that they were no longer in the true inner communion with God. From this it follows that something has already happened before Adam's temptation and Eve's transgression, and to this points Rom. 5:12: sin has entered the world through one person.

    There is something else. In 1 Cor. 15:22 states that all die in Adam. « In Adam » means: in his person and nature. If Eve sinned after her creation she would not have died in Adam, therefore did not sin in him. But where sin entered the world through one man, Eve also contained the already sinful human nature, as well as all who were born of him and her in the lineage of the generations. Letting Eve sin outside of Adam makes 1 Cor. 15 powerless. Just as the « in Christ » doesn't mean that outside of Him someone else could make alive, nor does mean « in Adam » that Eve died outside him. Out of one all have come forth and in one all have died (or die all) because this one has sinned and transfers his nature to all. Here too it was true: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by glfglf View Post
    .....like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment.
    Angels will be judged - at least the sinful ones. Paul, Peter, and Jude speak to that. Some of them were bound in hell at the onset of their sin and are awaiting judgment.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by glfglf View Post
    The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; imparted the knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve as they lost their innocence.
    IMO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment.
    I could buy into this. Most countries laws make this distinction as well, that people under a certain age are considered unable to posses a "culpable mental state" and thus cannot be charged with crimes, or can't be tried as an adult.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I could buy into this. Most countries laws make this distinction as well, that people under a certain age are considered unable to posses a "culpable mental state" and thus cannot be charged with crimes, or can't be tried as an adult.
    Isn’t a bar Mitzvah or bat Mitzvah a turning point for a young adult’s commitment to embrace God’s commandments?

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    Great peace Walls, just one thing. The Sin mentioned is not the eating of the tree and this is why. Rom. 5:12 — 6:8 deals with the mystery mentioned Rom. 16:25 — 27. Rom. 5:12 — 21 is not about sins but about sin, not about disobedience to the law of conscience by the Gentiles, nor about the law of Sinai by the Jew, but about the crime of Adam that the failure of Jew and Gentile explains. We are set here before the depth of the corruption of human nature, which shows why there is no good living in the flesh, and that all have deviated. The cause is the law of sin and of death. But, and this is the Divine, opposite is Christ's work set and the dominion of grace.

    The decline to Adam means that we do not find the terms Jew and Gentile, Israel and the nations, circumcision and foreskin. The whole generation is traded in its base unit. It is not about rescued and lost, believers and unbelievers, there is only talk about two persons and they control and radically influence the entire generation. A comparison is made between the first and the last Adam, the first who brought death to all, the last who not only lifts this death but brings on all a mercy that justifies their lives and an abundance of grace for many to make them rule, giving more than what the first one has lost. In one word, the sovereignty of sin, caused by Adam, is replaced by the much more intense and sublime reign of grace made by Christ.

    Adam and Christ are compared, so there are similarities and differences. Just look:

    Similarity: 12 — 14 Wherfore
    Opposite: 15
    16 — 17
    But not as
    And not as
    Similarity: 18
    19
    Therefore
    For as
    Opposite: 20 Offence abound — grace overabound

    Adam killed everyone. Christ can not surpass him in this. His salvation, however, is of equal scope. When, however, the effects of Christ's work are contrasted to Adam's crime, there is always an outpouring on Christ's side. Christ was destined to do much more for every child of Adam than Adam did. The reign of death and sin, v. 14, 21 is replaced by the reign of grace that has become much more abundant.

    V 12. Wherefore. Apparently this conjunction compiles the first part of the chapter with the second and gives the impression of drawing a conclusion from the foregoing. Yet it does not do this but it goes on a completely different line and introduces something entirely new. In chapter 2:1 we find something similar. It is therefore a transitional word and opens a new part, namely that in which a whole new light is cast upon the work of Christ. It does not return to the foregoing but leads to the following: the hidden mystery.

    Sin has come in by one person. According to Gen. 3 not one man but two people have brought sin into the world. Eve saw that the tree was good for food, she took of its fruit, ate, gave also her husband, and he ate, Gen. 3:6. It was she who was deceived and in transgression, 1 Tim. 2:14. Nevertheless, in Rom. 5 is not the contrast Eve — Christ but Adam — Christ. Now there are explanations for this, in which it is said that the authority and the headship were not in her but in Adam, that he could only permit sin in the world, but all of this is not able to decisively declare the one.

    This « one » is no less than nine times in this section used:
    — sin came in by one man, v. 12, 16,
    — there was the crime of one, vs. 12, 17, 18,
    — one was disobedient, vs. 19,
    — Grace comes by One, v. 15,
    — by One comes the abundance of grace, v. 17,
    — by One the many are made righteous, v. 19.

    Just as now the One, Christ, are not two, neither is the one, Adam, two.

    Sin has entered the world through one person. Not by two. Sin is not a transgression but an error, a goal-missing. Gen. 3, however, shows a transgression which is not the same. Thus in Rom. 5 something revealed that is concealed in Gen. 3.

    Adam's sin. Sin has a source from which it rises. James indicates that it is the desire. « But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. » Jam. 1:14, 15. Here we are assigned the fivefold process:

    — being deducted,
    — to be enticed,
    — the receiving of the desire,
    — the giving birth of sin,
    — leading to death.

    Adam also went through this path as the first man, he was deducted or alienated from God, lured to something else, then the desire rooted, it gave birth to sin (the error) and it led to death.

    In what way did Adam's sin now exist? Adam was created to the image of God. This Image is He who later appeared as Christ, 2 Cor. 4:4. It had the human form and as such Adam has been created by it. Inwardly he got a gift that raised him above the animal and he had understanding and will. He was completely a living-soul, Gen. 2:7 but in order to be perfect, that is to say, finished, still had to go a way. Where the Image of God is neither man nor woman, Adam was not either, he had a higher unity within him.

    He was created outside the Garden, 2:8, later he was placed there. There he gave the animals names. Then there came a moment when he was deducted from the Lord. He no longer regarded His visits as the highest good, the earthly lured him, and a different desire arose in him. This was to another, a female being. He saw the animals, but he did not find a companion for himself, Gen. 2:19, 20. The enticement became desire now, his « I-ness » placed itself there and then the spiritual conception took place. The result was sin: he went to search. This follows from Gen. 2:20: « ... but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him ».

    The word « to find » has in Scripture, as in our language, essentially two meanings: it may mean that one wishes to recover something that one misses, Mk. 1:37 or lost, Lk. 15:4, 9 etc. or that one desires to get, meet or see something that one has not yet, Mt. 2:11; 7:8: 8:10; 11:29: 21:2 etc. Now Adam did not lose the help like the father the son in Lk. 15 and we can not take it in the sense that something was lost, so it must be taken in the second sense, namely of covet. Now coveting can be a good inclination: one can, for example, find peace (seek and), Mt. 11:29, or a treasure, 13:44 etc. but also express a sinful inclination: the great debtor found the small, Mt. 18:28. We must accept an impure desire from Adam. He was a perfect man, had masculine and feminine in a higher unity: the powerful and gentle, the true spirit and the pure feeling, but he derailed, in his being, something inexplicable but something that, in fact, in the elaboration, came out in the search. It was this desire that gave birth to sin, the goal-missing.

    From this background we find nothing in Gen. 3. It is concealed. Israel could not understand this. They were taught the monogamous marriage, that of husband and wife. But this is not from Adam's creation, it is, as everyone can read, from later time. In Mt. 19:18 The Lord therefore does not say that it was from the beginning, as the KJV says but from a beginning: there is no definite article here.

    Marriage is there by a second creation. That is clear from Gen. 1:26: First God created man, ha adam, then He created again. Wherever creation is to produce something that is not there as such, there was first no man (and no woman) but only a man, an undivided man. Then God created a man and a woman from that undivided man. The twofold « created » is proof of this insight.

    Apart from sin, there would have been another way of multiplication then by marriage, one in which man had not produced a male or female child, but an undivided human child. Furthermore, we will have to assume that once God is all in all, the natural multiplication ceases as it ceases for those who have obtained a glorified body.

    That the first people had already fallen before eating of the tree of knowledge is evident from more than one thing. Eve was under the influence of the senses, she saw what is before her eyes that the tree was good for food, the lust of the flesh, that it was a delight to the eyes, the lust of the eyes, even a tree to make wise, and to be as God, the pride of life. All this was not from God but from the world, as John calls it later, 1 John 2:16. Moreover, she was deceived by Satan, who most likely appeared to her as an angel of light in a shining form, 2 Cor. 11:3, and whom she did not recognize, what she would surely have done if she had been in the right state, Adam followed her without any resistance and thus proved being in that sphere. They proved that they were no longer in the true inner communion with God. From this it follows that something has already happened before Adam's temptation and Eve's transgression, and to this points Rom. 5:12: sin has entered the world through one person.

    There is something else. In 1 Cor. 15:22 states that all die in Adam. « In Adam » means: in his person and nature. If Eve sinned after her creation she would not have died in Adam, therefore did not sin in him. But where sin entered the world through one man, Eve also contained the already sinful human nature, as well as all who were born of him and her in the lineage of the generations. Letting Eve sin outside of Adam makes 1 Cor. 15 powerless. Just as the « in Christ » doesn't mean that outside of Him someone else could make alive, nor does mean « in Adam » that Eve died outside him. Out of one all have come forth and in one all have died (or die all) because this one has sinned and transfers his nature to all. Here too it was true: Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? not one.

    Aristarkos
    It is a very rare thing when two expositors agree on everything. But for the intents of this thread I must commend you and agree in the main. Probably we could go to and fro about the last section, but in the grand scheme of things I agree with your exegesis.

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by glfglf
    The forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil; imparted the knowledge of good and evil to Adam and Eve as they lost their innocence.
    IMO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I could buy into this. Most countries laws make this distinction as well, that people under a certain age are considered unable to posses a "culpable mental state" and thus cannot be charged with crimes, or can't be tried as an adult.
    The revelation of scripture is that Judgement is ALWAYS based on works. Israel has its Law, given by Moses. Their judgement is based on that. We see temporal retribution throughout the Old Testament and it comes to a solemn point in Isaiah 66:24. "And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh."

    The nations do not have the Law of Moses, and God does not dwell with them as He did of old in the Wilderness and the Good Land. They have (i) the Covenant of the Rainbow, which is, "... established between me and all flesh that is upon the earth" (Gen.9:17), which calls for retribution for any kind of bloodshed and eating of blood, and (ii) the nations have Conscience (Rom.2:6-16). Their judgements were also temporal like the Great Flood and Sodom and Gomorrah. But, just like Isaiah 66 their final crisis comes at the White Throne as John, "... saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works" (Rev.20:12) Then verse 15 says; "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."

    Now, the IMPLICATION in these two verses is that (i) anybody who was not raised when Christ came (1st Cor.15:22-24) will be raised after the Millennium, (ii) they are judged by their works, and (iii) NOT ALL go the Lake of Fire. Now, contemporary Christian teaching by teachers and pastors more bent on running the Assembly like a business, says that all who do not believe in Jesus are headed for "hell". But this is not the revelation of the Bible. Revelation 20:15 IMPLIES that not all of the "rest of the dead" will go to the Lake of Fire. But is the statement by glfglf above, which I have made red, correct?

    Essentially NO! Why? NO-ONE IS INNOCENT! If you came from Adam's loins you are carrier of the "sin" (singular) nature and DEATH is the wages, NOT of SINS (plural), but "sin" (singular). That is, a full-term baby who dies at birth, which has neither seen the light of day nor had a single thought, is LOST by virtue of its ORIGIN - IN ADAM. But God, in His tremendous love for His creature, and His tremedous sense of responsibility for His creature, will not allow this condition to continue for ever. So at GREAT COST to Himself and His Son Jesus, He gives His Son, perfect in ORIGIN (no "sin" - singular) and perfect IN HIS WAYS (no "sins" - plural), as a SUBSTITUTE for ALL MEN.

    • In John 1:29 John 1:29, "The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin (SINGULAR) of the world."
    • And in 1 John 2:2 it is, "And he (Jesus) is the propitiation for our sins (PLURAL): and not for ours only, but also for the sins (PLURAL) of the whole world."

    This MASSIVE PRICE paid by our Lord Jesus allows God to decide, based on WORKS, who will go to the Lake of Fire or not. It is only then that part of glfglf's statement is correct. NOBODY IS INNOCENT, but those whose WORKS were not actively against God, stand a chance of not going to the Lake of Fire. And all IMPAIRED, whether by young age or damage to their being, will escape the Lake of Fire. I would like to just bring one example to show the power of Jesus' Sacrifice.

    In Genesis, in a number of places, God makes a PROMISE to Abraham that to him and his seed (offspring) via Isaac, He will give the Land of Canaan with set borders as an "everlasting possession" (Gen.17:8). Now, since this is a PROMISE, and a promise TAKEN BY OATH (Heb.6:13-18), it is not possible that ONE ISRAELITE will not end up in the Good Land. And Israel have a number of distinctions that should FORBID them all.
    1. The first one is that they are in ADAM and should all die and never be recovered
    2. The second one is that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and four generations of Israelites - literally millions of them, died before they could enter the Good Land
    3. The third one is that of those who entered the Good Land ALL broke the Law, and the conditions of this Covenant of Law stipulates that they be cast out of the Good Land (see Leviticus 26 and Deuteronomy 28)
    4. The fourth one is that the remnant of Israel who were presented with their Messiah, Jesus, REFUSED Him and MURDERED Him
    5. The fifth one is that Israelites living at the end of this age will, except for a Remnant, EMBRACE THE BEAST

    With this history WHAT HOPE IS THERE FOR ISRAEL? The hope of Israel is their Messiah's Work as SUBSTITUTE for their sin-natures and their trespasses that proceeded out of their sin-nature. Who would think that after such failure, ALL ISRAEL WILL BE RESTORED TO THEIR LAND IN FAVOR WITH GOD? It blows the mind, but it is the subject of the prophets of both Testaments of the Bible. If ever there was a people who should have gone to the Lake of Fire (I do not say that the nations are any better though), it should have been Israel. Yet, based NOT ON THEIR WORKS, BUT ON THE FINISHED WORK OF JESUS, GOD IS ALLOWED TO, WITHOUT VIOLATING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS, RESTORE ISRAEL!

    And if Israel, then MANY of the nations, who we would consign to the Lake of Fire, will receive mercy. But don't be fooled. A HUGE CONTINGENT OF MANKIND, PLUS THE DEMONS, PLUS THE FALLEN ANGELS, WILL GO TO THE LAKE OF FIRE. Now is the time to fall on Jesus and His work. If not - nothing is guaranteed!

  9. #9
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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Food imparted knowledge? How bizarre!

  10. #10

    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Hey! Walls... PTL!
    Please let me rephrase. MO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment. to:
    imo children too young and the handicapped don't go to hell because they remain innocent, like the angels. So those people, who are unable to understand right from wrong are unable to commit any sin and are therefore free from judgment.

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    Food imparted knowledge? How bizarre!
    You'll have to take it up with the Mighty God of the universe. It is His concept. Brave is a the man who calls the things of God "bizarre".

    • What think ye of receiving Christ's Life with your mouth (Jn.6:53)?
    • What think ye of receiving the Holy Spirit with the mouth (Jn.20:22)?
    • What think you of Romans 10:8-10
      I8 "But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, ...;
      9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, ..., thou shalt be saved.
      10 ... and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."
    • What think ye then of our eternal future in Revelation 22:2 and 14?
      2 "In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 14 ... Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city."

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by glfglf View Post
    Hey! Walls... PTL!
    Please let me rephrase. MO this means: Those who haven't gotten old enough to know right from wrong and those who are handicapped remain innocent, like the angels, weren't able to commit any sins and are therefore free from judgment. to:
    imo children too young and the handicapped don't go to hell because they remain innocent, like the angels. So those people, who are unable to understand right from wrong are unable to commit any sin and are therefore free from judgment.
    OK. I hear you. Thanks for the rephrase. I'll let my posting stand for information's sake. God bless.

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Isn’t a bar Mitzvah or bat Mitzvah a turning point for a young adult’s commitment to embrace God’s commandments?
    Yes. Prior to coming of age (13 for boys, 12 for girls, who mature faster or at all as my wife would say) Jewish children are not technically obligated under the law. Although in the times of the Sanhedrin one could not receive capital punishment before the age of 20.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You'll have to take it up with the Mighty God of the universe. It is His concept. Brave is a the man who calls the things of God "bizarre".
    I didn't call a thing of God bizarre, is the point. Nothing in the text indicates food imparted knowledge. When they disobeyed their eyes were opened, is what it says. That has happened to you, right?

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    Re: Tree of knowledge of good and evil

    Quote Originally Posted by Noeb View Post
    I didn't call a thing of God bizarre, is the point. Nothing in the text indicates food imparted knowledge. When they disobeyed their eyes were opened, is what it says. That has happened to you, right?
    Well, its called the tree of knowledge of good and evil. And after they ate, their eyes were opened. It wasn't called the tree of disobedience.

    6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was desirable to make one wise, she took from its fruit and ate; and she gave also to her husband with her, and he ate. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loin coverings.

    Based on the text, I would say there were two special trees in the garden; the Tree of Life and the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Eat from those two and things happen. However, I do think what you say is true about disobedience. i.e. disobedience still has the spiritual effect of eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil. IOW, there are still two trees we can spiritually eat from even today.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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