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Thread: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

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  1. #1
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    Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    This is long. I’m sorry. I hope it’s interesting.

    That’s my question. Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    End Times Chat (ETC) is probably the busiest forum here. Mods might be able to tell differently, but when I look at recently updated threads and scan the right hand column often perhaps 75% or more are in ETC.

    In 1987, at the age of 16, I thought I was an expert on the book of Revelation. I was obsessed with the book. But, I was a teen. Metal bands spoke of 666 and quoted Revelation on their albums. Furthermore, I’d read at least four books by Hal Lindsey. I was pretty sure I got saved in the nick of time a year earlier.

    88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.
    The Final Shout: Rapture Report (1989).
    23 Reasons Why a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Looks Like It Will Occur on Rosh-Hashanah 1993.
    And Now the Earth’s Destruction by Fire, Nuclear Bomb Fire (1994).

    I read none of those.

    Harold Camping failed multiple times.


    I spiritually grew up in Calvary Chapel. Calvary, God bless them, is fascinated with eschatology. A lot of cassettes/CDs/MP3s cannot be shared anymore because they guessed “within 20 years” yada, yada, yada.

    They still do prophecy updates. A friend/good acquaintance is doing prophecy updates weekly.

    “A geneation is 40 years.”

    1948 - 1988. Nope.
    1967 - 2007. Nope.

    I notice how simple the church has been in the past about their eschatology.

    Apostles Creed

    He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    Nicene Creed

    he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end........
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Pretty simple.


    A thousand years later, the Westminster Confession and 1689 Baptist Confession weren’t much more complicated.

    I’ll quote the Baptist.

    CHAPTER 31Of the State of Man after Death, And of the Resurrection of the Dead
    1. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.
    2. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.
    3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.

    CHAPTER 32
    Of the Last Judgment
    1. God has appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
    2. The end of God’s appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and glory with everlasting rewards, in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked, who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.
    3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity, so will he have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come, and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus; come quickly. Amen.


    While I think it’s fine to study millennial and rapture views, and I do, and I have views and opinions, I can’t help but think we should be simpler and less focused on the future of which none of us really know other than the little God has shared and a couple thousand pounds of conjecture and speculation.

    The Bible has so much more about justification and sanctification. And I find that more interesting anyway.

    Grace & peace to all.
    Last edited by TrustGzus; Jul 18th 2018 at 12:33 PM. Reason: Typo

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  2. #2
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by TrustGzus View Post
    This is long. I’m sorry. I hope it’s interesting.

    That’s my question. Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    End Times Chat (ETC) is probably the busiest forum here. Mods might be able to tell differently, but when I look at recently updated threads and scan the right hand column often perhaps 75% or more are in ETC.

    In 1987, at the age of 16, I thought I was an expert on the book of Revelation. I was obsessed with the book. But, I was a teen. Metal bands spoke of 666 and quoted Revelation on their albums. Furthermore, I’d read at least four books by Hal Lindsey. I was pretty sure I got saved in the nick of time a year earlier.

    88 Reasons Why the Rapture Will Be in 1988.
    The Final Shout: Rapture Report (1989).
    23 Reasons Why a Pre-Tribulation Rapture Looks Like It Will Occur on Rosh-Hashanah 1993.
    And Now the Earth’s Destruction by Fire, Nuclear Bomb Fire (1994).

    I read none of those.

    Harold Camping failed multiple times.


    I spiritually grew up in Calvary Chapel. Calvary, God bless them, is fascinated with eschatology. A lot of cassettes/CDs/MP3s cannot be shared anymore because they guessed “within 20 years” yada, yada, yada.

    They still do prophecy updates. A friend/good acquaintance is doing prophecy updates weekly.

    “A geneation is 40 years.”

    1948 - 1988. Nope.
    1967 - 2007. Nope.

    I notice how simple the church has been in the past about their eschatology.

    Apostles Creed

    He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
    I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen.

    Nicene Creed

    he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
    He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end........
    We look for the resurrection of the dead,
    and the life of the world to come. Amen.

    Pretty simple.


    A thousand years later, the Westminster Confession and 1689 Baptist Confession weren’t much more complicated.

    I’ll quote the Baptist.

    CHAPTER 31Of the State of Man after Death, And of the Resurrection of the Dead
    1. The bodies of men after death return to dust, and see corruption; but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them. The souls of the righteous being then made perfect in holiness, are received into paradise, where they are with Christ, and behold the face of God in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies; and the souls of the wicked are cast into hell; where they remain in torment and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day; besides these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none.
    2. At the last day, such of the saints as are found alive, shall not sleep, but be changed; and all the dead shall be raised up with the selfsame bodies, and none other; although with different qualities, which shall be united again to their souls forever.
    3. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor; the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor, and be made conformable to His own glorious body.

    CHAPTER 32
    Of the Last Judgment
    1. God has appointed a day wherein he will judge the world in righteousness, by Jesus Christ; to whom all power and judgment is given of the Father; in which day, not only the apostate angels shall be judged, but likewise all persons that have lived upon the earth shall appear before the tribunal of Christ, to give an account of their thoughts, words, and deeds, and to receive according to what they have done in the body, whether good or evil.
    2. The end of God’s appointing this day, is for the manifestation of the glory of His mercy, in the eternal salvation of the elect; and of His justice, in the eternal damnation of the reprobate, who are wicked and disobedient; for then shall the righteous go into everlasting life, and receive that fullness of joy and glory with everlasting rewards, in the presence of the Lord; but the wicked, who do not know God, and do not obey the gospel of Jesus Christ, shall be cast aside into everlasting torments, and punished with everlasting destruction, from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power.
    3. As Christ would have us to be certainly persuaded that there shall be a day of judgment, both to deter all men from sin, and for the greater consolation of the godly in their adversity, so will he have the day unknown to men, that they may shake off all carnal security, and be always watchful, because they know not at what hour the Lord will come, and may ever be prepared to say, Come Lord Jesus; come quickly. Amen.


    While I think it’s fine to study millennial and rapture views, and I do, and I have views and opinions, I can’t help but think we should be simpler and less focused on the future of which none of us really know other than the little God andnhas shared and a couple thousand pounds of conjecture and speculation.

    The Bible has so much more about justification and sanctification. And I find that more interesting anyway.

    Grace & peace to all.
    Great post.
    I have warmed to the more simpler approach these last few years.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  3. #3
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    So TrustGzus, you recommend that we just ignore about a quarter of our Bibles?
    I know that is what most pastors do now, as you say; concentrate on justification and sanctification. But is it right to virtually ignore so much scripture?

    2 Peter 1:19 tells us we do well to study the prophets and Paul says we Christians should not be in the dark about what will happen. 1 Thess 5:4
    I know that the Prophetic Word is difficult to comprehend and is placed by most into the too hard basket. The Day will come, when we will all come face to face with the Lord. He just may ask: Why didn't you make a effort to understand what My prophets told you would happen. Why did you believe teachers that promoted false theories and unscriptural fables? 2 Timothy 4:3-4

  4. #4
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Concerning a generation..

    The Hebrews seem to have reckoned time by the generation. In the time of Abraham a generation was an hundred years, thus: Genesis 15:16 , "In the fourth generation" = in four hundred years (Compare verse 13 and Exodus 12:40 ). In Deuteronomy 1:35 and 2:14 a generation is a period of thirty-eight years.

    https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/generation/

    I've always looked at a generation to be somewhere around a hundred years..


    Jude
    Weve reduced God to a minimum. Most of us are trying to get to heaven with minimum spirituality. If we looked after our business like we look after our soul, wed be bankrupt years ago! The materialism has crept in and its blinded us! It has become a way of life.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




  5. #5
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    So TrustGzus, you recommend that we just ignore about a quarter of our Bibles?
    I know that is what most pastors do now, as you say; concentrate on justification and sanctification. But is it right to virtually ignore so much scripture?

    2 Peter 1:19 tells us we do well to study the prophets and Paul says we Christians should not be in the dark about what will happen. 1 Thess 5:4
    I know that the Prophetic Word is difficult to comprehend and is placed by most into the too hard basket. The Day will come, when we will all come face to face with the Lord. He just may ask: Why didn't you make a effort to understand what My prophets told you would happen. Why did you believe teachers that promoted false theories and unscriptural fables? 2 Timothy 4:3-4

    No--he's saying that we need to LIVE the other 75% and put the quarter in it's proper perspective.

  6. #6
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    No--he's saying that we need to LIVE the other 75% and put the quarter in it's proper perspective.


    clearly what he was saying.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  7. #7
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChangedByHim View Post
    No--he's saying that we need to LIVE the other 75% and put the quarter in it's proper perspective.
    I do that.
    I have listened to thousands of sermons, one pastor did a series on Revelation, he made a mess of it, otherwise nothing on prophecy from the pulpit. And to try to discuss Bible prophecy to pastors or church members, just gets you very quickly silenced.

    We ARE living in the end times, that is evident from the present world situation. We SHOULD know what God has planned for His people in all that must happen before Jesus Returns. The Courts do not excuse ignorance, God will not either.

  8. #8
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The Courts do not excuse ignorance, God will not either.
    Its possible that you are digging a hole for yourself here Keraz.
    And those castles made of sand....fall into the sea......eventually

  9. #9

    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to TrustGzus again.

    Excellent post Joe. Very well thought out and written.
    9 Let us not lose heart in doing good, for in due time we will reap if we do not grow weary. 10 So then, while we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, and especially to those who are of the household of the faith. - Galatians 6:9-10 NASB

  10. #10
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I do that.
    Good for you. However, by my observation many don't.

  11. #11

    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I do that.
    I have listened to thousands of sermons, one pastor did a series on Revelation, he made a mess of it, otherwise nothing on prophecy from the pulpit. And to try to discuss Bible prophecy to pastors or church members, just gets you very quickly silenced.

    We ARE living in the end times, that is evident from the present world situation. We SHOULD know what God has planned for His people in all that must happen before Jesus Returns. The Courts do not excuse ignorance, God will not either.
    Don't recall any where in my Bible where it says I will be judged by what I know about which red heifer the ashes have to be made from. Or where I will be judged by what I know about the Bible at all. I find plenty to show me that I will be judged based on what I did with what God gave me, and who I shared with, and how I treated others. Exactly where does it say that I "should know what God has planned for His people" at all.

    Seems to me to be just the opposite of what Jesus said when he said "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

    Seems to me that we've got better things to do to love our neighbors and care for the widows and orphans that worrying about vials and trumpets and heifers and 666. Besides, I think this fascination with the end of the world and so called prophecy and all that stuff just became poplar in the last 150 years or so. I think the folks in those seven churches in chapter 2 and 3 of the REvelation of Jesus Christ had to have a pretty good idea of what was going on, otherwise writing them a whole books doesn't make much sense.

  12. #12
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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedMan View Post
    Don't recall any where in my Bible where it says I will be judged by what I know about which red heifer the ashes have to be made from. Or where I will be judged by what I know about the Bible at all. I find plenty to show me that I will be judged based on what I did with what God gave me, and who I shared with, and how I treated others. Exactly where does it say that I "should know what God has planned for His people" at all.

    Seems to me to be just the opposite of what Jesus said when he said "Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. 33But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.

    34Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

    Seems to me that we've got better things to do to love our neighbors and care for the widows and orphans that worrying about vials and trumpets and heifers and 666. Besides, I think this fascination with the end of the world and so called prophecy and all that stuff just became poplar in the last 150 years or so. I think the folks in those seven churches in chapter 2 and 3 of the REvelation of Jesus Christ had to have a pretty good idea of what was going on, otherwise writing them a whole books doesn't make much sense.
    What I said was; God does expect us to read the Bible. We get our information about Salvation and how we should live there. Also there is a great amount of prophecy, some fulfilled; very literally, but most awaiting fulfilment. We should know about what God has planned for the future. Otherwise we are in the dark. 1 Thess 5:4

  13. #13

    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    What I said was; God does expect us to read the Bible. We get our information about Salvation and how we should live there. Also there is a great amount of prophecy, some fulfilled; very literally, but most awaiting fulfilment. We should know about what God has planned for the future. Otherwise we are in the dark. 1 Thess 5:4
    I do not believe that 1 Thessalonians 5:4 has anything tO do with "being in the dark" about "what God has planned for the future." The end of chapter 4 continues right into chapter 5 without a break in thought. In the end of chapter 4, Paul was just telling those frightened Thessalonians that whether you are dead or alive when Jesus comes, we all get resurrected. Then he continues in chapter 5. So, we shouldn't be worried about when we die or when Jesus is coming back, because in either case we all get on the same train.

    Seems to me that what you are suggesting is just the opposite of what Paul was saying.

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    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedMan View Post
    Seems to me that what you are suggesting is just the opposite of what Paul was saying.
    Paul says in 1 Thess 5:1-5, along with over 100+ other Bible prophesies; that the Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, at a time when people think all is peaceful, sudden destruction will hit them, [the Lord's enemies] and there will be no escape.
    But you, my friends, you read the Prophetic Word, you know what God has told you thru His prophets, so that terrible Day will not surprise you.

    Is that how it is with you? Have you really studied all the many prophesies that vividly describe the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath against the nations? All the information about what it will be, why the Lord sends it, when He will do it, etc, is Written in our Bibles. Just read it and be a child of the Light.

    So; regarding the OP, those who do know what God has planned to do is these end times, are the sane and sensible ones, those who fail to understand the prophesies, are the unbalanced and insensible ones.

  15. #15

    Re: Are we imbalanced eschatomaniacs in the 21st century church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Paul says in 1 Thess 5:1-5, along with over 100+ other Bible prophesies; that the Day of the Lord will come unexpectedly, at a time when people think all is peaceful, sudden destruction will hit them, [the Lord's enemies] and there will be no escape.
    But you, my friends, you read the Prophetic Word, you know what God has told you thru His prophets, so that terrible Day will not surprise you.

    Is that how it is with you? Have you really studied all the many prophesies that vividly describe the great and terrible Day of the Lord's vengeance and wrath against the nations? All the information about what it will be, why the Lord sends it, when He will do it, etc, is Written in our Bibles. Just read it and be a child of the Light.

    So; regarding the OP, those who do know what God has planned to do is these end times, are the sane and sensible ones, those who fail to understand the prophesies, are the unbalanced and insensible ones.

    Why would,a believer have any concern about God's wrath toward His enemies? More than that, I think you've already taken a wrong turn in 1 Thess 4 and 5, so I don't imagine your interpretation of supposedly "prophetic" verses would leave much of an impression on me.

    Jesus clearly warned those in Jerusalem to flee to the mountains before the destruction of the temple. I don't live in Jerusalem and I surely don't live 2000 years ago, so, well, there ya go.

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