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Thread: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

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    Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?
    Some Hebrew Roots Messianic congregations are anti-Paul. Thatís about all I know about

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?
    We had a guy infiltrate our Bible Study at church, and try to create a hostile attitude towards Paul. I promptly rebuked him, right or wrong, and he left and has never come back. I had thought he was a Christian, because he had been in our church for some years. But I discovered he had lots of oddities about him. The pastors said he was always challenging their sermons. And he gave accounts to me personally of "staring down" Anton Levey.

    I wouldn't be surprised if another anti-Paul movement was initiated somewhere. Paul was a controversial figure in his own day. Some of his own churches turned against him. And yet much of the NT Scriptures are his. I have no doubt Satan would love to diminish him. In doing so we would lose much of our Bible.

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? ... or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?
    Fringe only. Every church and denomination within the pale of Christian orthodoxy, be they Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Baptist, Lutheran, etc., holds St. Paul's Epistles to be the breathed words of God. There has long been opposition to his Epistles because they teach things that some people wish they didn't, inconvenient truths that tell these people with clarity just how sinful their lives/lifestyles really are.

    ~Deut
    Matthew 5
    16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 7
    12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


    1 Corinthians 13
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    1 Peter 3
    15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.


  5. #5

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Here's proof, at least to me, as to why Paul's writings are scripture:
    Jesus said to Peter in Mt 16:17 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven." The Lord must have been delighted that Peter was hearing from the Father for himself. It is this same Peter who says in 2 Pet 3:15,16 "And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."
    I count this as proof, even to those who would reject the apostle Paul and his epistles; otherwise one would have to discount the Apostle Peter too and then too, even the words of Jesus, who is the one that tells us that Peter hears from the Father from himself. Jesus also said that, if they didn't believe the scriptures, then they wouldn't believe, even if one were to rise from the dead.

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Essentially Paul wrote 2 Cor. to defend his Apostleship against attacks from "false apostles" (11:13) who were questioning his authority, so nothing has changed

    Paul received his "Gospel" directly from Jesus (Gal 1:11-12), so not sure how one could argue he preached a different Gospel to Christ.

    I think I will side with Paul when it comes to the Gospel To differ means to be accursed, deceived or a minister of Satan!
    Gal 1:6-9 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

    2 Cor 11:3-4 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

    Cheers
    Leigh

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    This movement is very old, going back almost 2,000 years. See the Ebionites.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Some Hebrew Roots Messianic congregations are anti-Paul. Thatís about all I know about
    As they were in Paul's day too.
    I have only known of 1 anti Paul person and his doctrine was kooky anyway.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  9. #9

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    My friend, those people begin with Paul, and then they going to tell that also Peter is false. Why? Because Peter said that there is some letters from Paul is hard to get, and those people with a little knowledge twist the words of Paul.

  10. #10

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?

    it's the way modern pastors don't understand Paul because of false doctrines. Peter specifically warns to be careful reading Paul. You can't read Paul a verse at a time it's easily distorted that way.


    “Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.”
    **2 Peter‬ *3:15-17‬ *NIV‬‬



    pretty significant when one apostle, is making a specific warning to the church, to be careful because Paul's letters are complex, and hard to understand. That's the only place I recall being warned of certain letters or books in the bible. Paul is a wonderful apostle of the lord Jesus, equal to every other apostle in the bible the issue is he is no more or less than the others and they were all preaching to the same church. It's when people try to make Paul the most important that's many take issue with, not Paul, but those who distort and can't grasp his message, honestly the best way to grasp Paul's letters, is to learn thoroughly the Old Testament, most of what he is explaining has foundations in the ot. Understanding definitely improves when you understand he's revealing things prophecies about long before and writes a lot a person needs to understand the law of Moses to grasp.

  11. #11

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?
    Is there a difference between Jesus words and Paul's words? Promises separate them, but I wouldn't call it anti Paul.

    Jesus says a lot about His words and they come with promises, the question is, do you receive these promises without having Christ's words?

    We will be judged by them:
    John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

    We will know the truth only if we continue in His word:
    John 8:31-32 Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

    The Father and Jesus will make their abode with us:
    John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

    We can ask what we will and it will be done unto us:
    John 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.

    Do these promises come with any other words? Do you have these promises without the words of Christ? Do church's teach His words? Do church's receive the promises?

    These are all questions we need to ponder for sure.

  12. #12

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by rom826 View Post
    Is there an anti Apostle Paul movement going on in the church? I was on a site today where there were some folks who called themselves Christian yet were very much against the Apostle Paul. One poster even said he did not believe that Paul's writings were scripture and that he preached a different Christianity than its founder Jesus Christ. I have also previously seen a few posts in this forum where the poster alluded to the same thing. I have not seen many such posts in this forum, just a few. I was just wondering if there was an anti Paul movement going on to be concerned about or if this is just a fringe movement with not very many adherents?
    I've come across a couple of people who claimed that Paul was a false apostle. Their reasonings included curious interpretations of 666 (apparently it was 666 years between Paul's time and one of the OT prophets - I didn't check the claim because it seemed more like a coincidence even though they claimed John's mention of 666 was a warning about the false apostle Paul for those that had understanding).

    To consider the claim would mean testing the whole of Paul's writings against the teachings of Jesus to see how well they align. To observe that Paul made specific claims achieves little because anyone could claim that they were inspired by God, and indeed we should expect false teachers to claim divine inspiration as a convenient means to avoid being checked out too thoroughly. So the next question is whether Paul was accepted by the other apostles and whether Paul's teaching aligns with Christ's teaching.

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sonajero View Post
    I've come across a couple of people who claimed that Paul was a false apostle. Their reasonings included curious interpretations of 666 (apparently it was 666 years between Paul's time and one of the OT prophets - I didn't check the claim because it seemed more like a coincidence even though they claimed John's mention of 666 was a warning about the false apostle Paul for those that had understanding).

    To consider the claim would mean testing the whole of Paul's writings against the teachings of Jesus to see how well they align. To observe that Paul made specific claims achieves little because anyone could claim that they were inspired by God, and indeed we should expect false teachers to claim divine inspiration as a convenient means to avoid being checked out too thoroughly. So the next question is whether Paul was accepted by the other apostles and whether Paul's teaching aligns with Christ's teaching.
    It seems silly, in light of 2000 years of Christian teaching, to question Paul's place in the history of Christian theology. However, it's a worthy question to ask where Paul got his own Christian basis from, in the OT Scriptures? Paul was, I think, controversial in the same way Christ himself was, because he claimed that Christ's authority extended above Jewish tradition.

    And that means Jesus claimed a supernatural origin for both our righteousness and guidance. Without that we are pure humanists, creating our own guidance, truth, and works. This runs counter to the naturalistic, materialistic world, who in their lust for independence from God, easily resist all sense of a supernatural God, unless He has nothing to do with us.

    Paul's teachings, like Christ's, advance the idea of supernatural guidance, as determined by the life and authority of Christ. If we are to be truly guided, and truly righteous, our lives should look like Christ's life. And its form should extend beyond that of the Jewish Law.

    So Paul's theology was controversial from two points of view, from the Jewish view and from the view of naturalistic man. It is a supernaturalism that is not confined to either the Jewish People or the Law of Moses. And yet, no matter how naturalistic men deny its existence, it is a real righteousness, and a righteousness that is from God.

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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    i think many have issues with Paul because so many of the oddball doctrines, tongues (angel language), grace with no works/obedience, and no women, are from Pauls teachings and can be found no where else in scripture.

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