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Thread: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

  1. #16

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Want2bSaved View Post
    I came across this recently and don't know what to think. I can't really look into it too much right now because I have so little time these days and am into something else but the guy I watched thinks that only Matthew and John are the only true gospel because Luke and Mark were not among the original chosen 12 apostles. There was actually a contradiction he pointed out in the accounts of Matthew and Luke regarding the 2 thieves crucified with Jesus. Matthew says they both mocked the Lord while Luke says the one rebuked the other and believed the Lord. So he believes this is where the deathbed conversion beliefs come from which he says is not found anywhere else in scripture.

    Another contradiction was Paul's Damascus accounts. Acts 9:7 And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. Then there's Acts 22:9 And they that were with me saw indeed the light, and were afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me. Hmmm.

    So this guy thinks Paul and Luke are tares that the enemy sowed among the wheat? Like I said, he has alot to say on the matter and some of it is quite interesting but I am too immature a christian to know if it's credible. I really hope it's not true because sometimes lately I am so sick of lies and just want to cry out to God to please stop letting me be so easily deceived so I can find true help learning His word. Here's what I watched if you're interested.

    https://youtu.be/aaNHNRqhLNM
    I did listen to the video and he points out things that are in the word of God pretty plain to see I have seen others. I know how you feel, been there done that, as the saying goes. Know that all these things do happen when you have a hunger for the word of God and you are looking for truth. There have been teachings by some I couldn't finish listening to before. I know I have been led to stay more in Matthew and John so I just do that over and over along with other things and teachings I learn in the other scriptures. I encourage you to trust the Lord in all these things, it is the Lord by the Holy Ghost that does the teaching not to look to man. Stay in Jesus words for yourself. Really ponder this scripture....then trust that He will do the teaching.


    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

  2. #17
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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybird View Post
    i think many have issues with Paul because so many of the oddball doctrines, tongues (angel language), grace with no works/obedience, and no women, are from Pauls teachings and can be found no where else in scripture.
    Hi Jaybird, Paul's Epistles often emphasize/speak much more directly about certain aspects of the faith than the Gospels and the other Epistles do, but his Epistles are rarely (ever?) the lone voice of any Biblical doctrine. For instance, the most famous verse about speaking in tongues is from Luke .. Acts 2:4, and many books in the Bible teach salvation through faith/believing, apart from our works/obedience, in both the OT and the New .. e.g. Genesis 15:6; John 3:16, 18, 5:24, 20:31; 1 Peter 1:9; 1 John 5:13.

    Even St. James' 2nd Chapter speaks of salvation .. or the lack thereof .. in terms of the ~kind~ of faith one possesses (saving faith being the kind of faith that ~results~ in works, and in all the other things that 'accompany' salvation, and dead/demon faith being the kind of faith that results in nothing). Our works are never salvific or meritorious, only Jesus' works are!

    St. Paul also spoke of our works and obedience as the natural result/fruit of faith, so his Epistles could hardly be referred to as anti-works .. Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 2:10, 1 Thessalonians 1:3.

    I believe the real question in all of this comes down to what one believes the Bible actually is, 1. a fallible collection of men's thoughts about God, or 2. the living, breathed words of God Himself. If it's the latter that's true, and I believe that it is, then it seems to me that anti-Pauline = anti-God.

    ~Deut

    Romans 11

    6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    Matthew 5
    16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 7
    12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


    1 Corinthians 13
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    1 Peter 3
    15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.


  3. #18

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post

    I believe the real question in all of this comes down to what one believes the Bible actually is, 1. a fallible collection of men's thoughts about God, or 2. the living, breathed words of God Himself. If it's the latter that's true, and I believe that it is, then it seems to me that anti-Pauline = anti-God.

    ~Deut

    Romans 11

    6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    [/SIZE][/FONT]
    Deut...I have to disagree...I believe Jesus cut down the size of the scriptures with this:

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Since Jesus is God we have His words...plus some words in the law and prophets. To me that means the rest of scriptures are God inspired history not “the words of God” there is a difference to me what is of the mouth of God... God did not claim all the words of scriptures as being His words, you would have to show me where He says that or why would have God said this:
    Jeremiah 8:8 (NASB)How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us’?
    But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.

    Even Paul said to rightly divide the word of truth...2Ti 2:15 He called it the word of truth he did not call it all "God's words". So there is a division to be done, Jesus to me also made that division in what He said.

    So I see it a bit different than you see the scriptures.

  4. #19
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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Deut...I have to disagree...I believe Jesus cut down the size of the scriptures with this:

    Matthew 4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

    Since Jesus is God we have His words...plus some words in the law and prophets. To me that means the rest of scriptures are God inspired history not “the words of God” there is a difference to me what is of the mouth of God... God did not claim all the words of scriptures as being His words, you would have to show me where He says that or why would have God said this:
    Jeremiah 8:8 (NASB)How can you say, ‘We are wise, And the law of the Lord is with us’?
    But behold, the lying pen of the scribes Has made it into a lie.
    Even Paul said to rightly divide the word of truth...2Ti 2:15 He called it the word of truth he did not call it all "God's words". So there is a division to be done, Jesus to me also made that division in what He said.

    So I see it a bit different than you see the scriptures.
    Hi KyCyd, while I can certainly understand why you think what you do, your thoughts concerning the Scriptures here are pretty unique (in my experience anyway), and by that I mean on either side of the pale of Christian orthodoxy. Of course, I may be misunderstanding you to a degree, so I would like to discuss this all a bit further. I can't do that right now however, but I will hopefully be able to do so soon (Dv).

    I will leave you with this thought about Matthew 4:4: While the Lord's use of "it is written" in Matthew 4:4 confirms that the words that follow in that verse (from Deuteronomy 8:3) are authoritative, and therefore binding upon our hearts/consciences as Scripture, He does so, even though He knows that the words He quoted, the words that you are basing your theory/presupposition on, were spoken by Moses, not by God.

    There is much more to discuss but, as I just said above, it's going to have to wait a little while longer (I didn't want you to think that I'd completely forgotten you though).

    ~Deut

    2 Peter 3
    15 *Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
    16 *He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    .
    Last edited by Deuteronomy Skaggs; Oct 11th 2018 at 11:06 PM.
    Matthew 5
    16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.


    Matthew 7
    12 However you want people to treat you, so treat them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


    1 Corinthians 13
    1 If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.

    1 Peter 3
    15 Sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts, always being ready to make a defense to everyone who asks you to give an account for the hope that is in you, yet with gentleness and reverence.


  5. #20

    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post
    Hi KyCyd, while I can certainly understand why you think what you do, your thoughts concerning the Scriptures here are pretty unique (in my experience anyway), and by that I mean on either side of the pale of Christian orthodoxy. Of course, I may be misunderstanding you to a degree, so I would like to discuss this all a bit further. I can't do that right now however, but I will hopefully be able to do so soon (Dv).

    I will leave you with this thought about Matthew 4:4: While the Lord's use of "it is written" in Matthew 4:4 confirms that the words that follow in that verse (from Deuteronomy 8:3) are authoritative, and therefore binding upon our hearts/consciences as Scripture, He does so, even though He knows that the words He quoted, the words that you are basing your theory/presupposition on, were spoken by Moses, not by God.

    There is much more to discuss but, as I just said above, it's going to have to wait a little while longer (I didn't want you to think that I'd completely forgotten you though).

    ~Deut

    2 Peter 3
    15 *Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote to you with the wisdom that God gave him.
    16 *He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do
    the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    .
    Deut...That is fine, but if you just do a word search for “saith Lord” you will see that Moses said that in the Law...the prophets said it...and even Paul used it when quoting God. So you will see it in scriptures. That to me points it out even in the NT.

  6. #21
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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by Deuteronomy Skaggs View Post
    Hi Jaybird, Paul's Epistles often emphasize/speak much more directly about certain aspects of the faith than the Gospels and the other Epistles do, but his Epistles are rarely (ever?) the lone voice of any Biblical doctrine. For instance, the most famous verse about speaking in tongues is from Luke .. Acts 2:4, and many books in the Bible teach salvation through faith/believing, apart from our works/obedience, in both the OT and the New .. e.g. Genesis 15:6; John 3:16, 18, 5:24, 20:31; 1 Peter 1:9; 1 John 5:13.

    Even St. James' 2nd Chapter speaks of salvation .. or the lack thereof .. in terms of the ~kind~ of faith one possesses (saving faith being the kind of faith that ~results~ in works, and in all the other things that 'accompany' salvation, and dead/demon faith being the kind of faith that results in nothing). Our works are never salvific or meritorious, only Jesus' works are!

    St. Paul also spoke of our works and obedience as the natural result/fruit of faith, so his Epistles could hardly be referred to as anti-works .. Galatians 5:6; Ephesians 2:10, 1 Thessalonians 1:3.

    I believe the real question in all of this comes down to what one believes the Bible actually is, 1. a fallible collection of men's thoughts about God, or 2. the living, breathed words of God Himself. If it's the latter that's true, and I believe that it is, then it seems to me that anti-Pauline = anti-God.

    ~Deut

    Romans 11

    6 If it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace.

    Acts 2 speaks of tongues/languages. it never mentions angel language. angel language is found in Pauls teaching and no where else in scipture.

    Jesus even says they will speak in new tongues, i think most anyone would understand this as new languages of this world being as many were going into cultures that spoke other languages.

    IMO Paul is a good teacher and never taught angel language, no works, no women. these are all people misunderstanding Paul. the bible even says Paul is hard to understand.

  7. #22
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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    It's just another attack on Gods word nothing more nothing less..


    Jude
    You never have to advertise a fire. Everyone comes running when there's a fire. Likewise, if your church is on fire, you will not have to advertise it. The community will already know it.

    ~ Leonard Ravenhill




  8. #23
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    Re: Anti apostle Paul movement in the church?

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Some Hebrew Roots Messianic congregations are anti-Paul. Thatís about all I know about
    I was just recently reading an article on the dangers of the Hebrew Roots movement - https://answersingenesis.org/presupp...oots-movement/
    Galatians 6:14 - But God forbid that I should boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

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