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Thread: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

  1. #1

    Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    I have a question, rather a situation in which I知 seeking Christian advice with biblical support, for my brothers and sisters of faith. I知 asking for you, Child or God, to share your wisdom and honest opinions regarding my predicament; so I have a huge family, 12 aunts on my moms side and about half of my aunts have seemingly targeted a group of us girl cousins and one of our moms (who is their blood sister). We are age 17-22, we walk in faith and have high aspirations. I値l try not to ramble but still include the important information so that readers can try to understand the situation holistically. Recently, the older aunts have held family get togethers and parties without extending the invitation to the select few of us that I mentioned earlier. At the time they lied and said they weren稚 doing anything. We have found out about these events and have questioned why we weren稚 invited. They are claiming that they have stopped inviting us due to the way we dress and that they are afraid that we will tempt/seduce their husbands, sons, and nephews.

    At this point in my much-longer-than-planned-story, you may be picturing a nice conservative family with a few rebel girls showing up to family thanksgiving dressed in blazing red G-strings and stripper boots, but this is not the case. We wear 渡ormal clothes. We are young girls with curves, no about that, however we do NOT dress scantily. To present this story in a somewhat 爽nbiased蜘ay I will say that we wear crop tops in the summer and shorts that are, well, short. We shop at target and TjMaxx like many girls our age. My point is, that we are not immodest women. My aunt especially, she is a grown married woman who has raised 4 children and lived her life. however I think it is pertinent to the story to include that she had a breast augmentation surgery last year. (You can imagine everything that my older aunts had to say about that &#128517 and I believe that is the main reason that she is being targeted.
    Furthermore, they said that for future reference when they have pool parties we must wear t-shirts over our bathing suits. [As if showing too much skin will be the reason one of our uncles rapes us] And I think that hits the spot right there; they池e shaming us for our developed bodies. It is not that we are sluts or that we are in any way TRYING to sexually attract anyone, it is simply that they believe is it our duty as Christian women to control the man痴 eyes and thoughts. If you know anything about Rape Culture, this is the mentality that creates such a culture!!! And this is happening in my family. Please help.
    - [ ] I need biblical support with a contemporary application

  2. #2

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Kailarenee View Post
    I have a question, rather a situation in which I’m seeking Christian advice with biblical support, for my brothers and sisters of faith. I’m asking for you, Child or God, to share your wisdom and honest opinions regarding my predicament; so I have a huge family, 12 aunts on my moms side and about half of my aunts have seemingly targeted a group of us girl cousins and one of our moms (who is their blood sister). We are age 17-22, we walk in faith and have high aspirations. I’ll try not to ramble but still include the important information so that readers can try to understand the situation holistically. Recently, the older aunts have held family get togethers and parties without extending the invitation to the select few of us that I mentioned earlier. At the time they lied and said they weren’t doing anything. We have found out about these events and have questioned why we weren’t invited. They are claiming that they have stopped inviting us due to the way we dress and that they are afraid that we will tempt/seduce their husbands, sons, and nephews.

    At this point in my much-longer-than-planned-story, you may be picturing a nice conservative family with a few rebel girls showing up to family thanksgiving dressed in blazing red G-strings and stripper boots, but this is not the case. We wear “normal” clothes. We are young girls with curves, no about that, however we do NOT dress scantily. To present this story in a somewhat ‘unbiased’way I will say that we wear crop tops in the summer and shorts that are, well, short. We shop at target and TjMaxx like many girls our age. My point is, that we are not immodest women. My aunt especially, she is a grown married woman who has raised 4 children and lived her life. however I think it is pertinent to the story to include that she had a breast augmentation surgery last year. (You can imagine everything that my older aunts had to say about that ��) and I believe that is the main reason that she is being targeted.
    Furthermore, they said that for future reference when they have pool parties we must wear t-shirts over our bathing suits. [As if showing too much skin will be the reason one of our uncles rapes us] And I think that hits the spot right there; they’re shaming us for our developed bodies. It is not that we are sluts or that we are in any way TRYING to sexually attract anyone, it is simply that they believe is it our duty as Christian women to control the man’s eyes and thoughts. If you know anything about Rape Culture, this is the mentality that creates such a culture!!! And this is happening in my family. Please help.
    - [ ] I need biblical support with a contemporary application
    "If your hand offends you, cut it off, for it is better to go through life maimed than to enter hell fire with two hands."

    Don't let your culture control you, whether that's a "Rape Culture" that you perceive, or your youth culture that says "I can dress any way I like and the men have to deal with it."

    It sounds like no one has tried to rape anyone, but that people are trying to control others on both sides of the coin.

    How does it hurt you to wear a cover up at a pool party. For that matter, how does it hurt you to refrain from getting in the pool at all.

    Maybe their husbands and sons are weak. Maybe they are overly protective.

    Does it harm you to avoid the situation entirely?

    I don't know. I'm a bit old fashioned, but there seems to me to be a whole lot deeper issues here than swimsuits and seduction.

  3. #3

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Well, Daughter, unfortunately your view of this predicament is understandably biased, yet it is in error...

    Concerning the aunts who have "targeted" you and your "busty" aunt...Titus 2:3-5
    3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;

    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,

    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.


    It seems they are doing their Godly, Biblical duty by working to instruct you youngers in the ways of chastity and discretion...



    Concerning your wearing of "normal" clothes for girls your age...2 Corinthians 6:16-17
    16 And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

    17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.

    Also James 4:4
    4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
    And there's MANY more verses like these, which admonish us, as Christians, not to go in the ways of the world, but to be different, separate, holy, and sanctified. I'm sure you know these verses and more; it's just likely that you would rather choose to dismiss them. Beloved Daughter of God, please don't dismiss them.


    Your statement, "I need biblical support with a contemporary application," belies a heart that desires to have one foot in Christ and the other foot in the world. It does not work that way. What you are going through is THE decision... the decision to follow Christ when things get hard, when persecution arises, when the cares of this world begin to choke the Word that is in your heart (Matthew 13). The decision to "daily pick up your cross and follow Him (Mark 8:34)"


    So, that is the end of the "Teach;" now indulge me as I extend a "Preach..."
    There is a very famous story recounted in the Book of Numbers, Chapters 22-24... the story of a ruler named Barak and a prophet named Balaam. Balak was afraid of the Israelites, for they were great in number, so he devised a plan to get Balaam to curse the Israelite people, thus he would defeat them in battle. However, Balaam could not vocalize a curse upon Israel, for God had blessed them (Numbers 23:8). Three times Balaam tried to orate a curse, only to speak the Blessing of God over the Israelites. Naturally, Balak refused to pay Balaam, for he had not done what he asked, so Balaam gave him this counsel: Cause the Children of Israel to sin against their God, and He will curse them."

    So how did the enemies of God cause the Israelites to sin? According to Jasher, the Moabites placed their beautiful women at the doors of their tents... wives and daughters, and enticed the men of Israel to come in unto them and do whatever they pleased. Because the men sinned with the Moabite women, God sent pestilence among the Israelites, and 24,000 of them died.

    Now, you are correct that the concept of "rape culture" is a bit out of hand... the way a woman dresses, talks, walks, etc, in no way should absolve a man from the guilt of his actions towards her, whatever they may be.

    That said, Bible history is FULL of stories in which the DOWNFALL of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman... Judah and Tamar; Samson and Delilah; David and Bathsheba; Amnon and Tamar; and many more. While you are under no WORLDLY OBLIGATION to clothe and present yourself in a modest fashion, please realize that you DO have a GOD-GIVEN obligation to do whatever possible to not cause another to stumble. Whether you want to admit it or not, you have a responsibility to the Body of Christ to present yourself in a manner becoming a Child of God; realizing that as a beautiful young woman, how you dress and act, rightfully or wrongly, has a bearing on causing men to lust within themselves.
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconcheff View Post
    That said, Bible history is FULL of stories in which the DOWNFALL of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman... Judah and Tamar; Samson and Delilah; David and Bathsheba; Amnon and Tamar; and many more.
    I'd ask you to reflect on what you said here. Beauty is the downfall of a Godly man?

    Judah knew his daughter-in-law Tamar throughout her marriages to two of his sons and her looks never seemed to stir him at all. It wasn't until his wife died and Tamar was disguised with a veil to cover her face - the sign of a prostitute - that he was interested at all. She was veiled. He could not see her face and did not know who she was. His wife had died and he wasn't moved by anything but the availability of a prostitute.

    Amnon - a Godly man?? I've never read of his virtue. Only his vile nature.

    Samson - a Godly man?? Nope. Just because God appointed him to kill some Philistines doesn't make him Godly. He broke every vow of a Nazarite, was self-absorbed like no one in the Bible, and what broke him was not Delilah's beauty, but her pestering him to death about the source of his strength.
    Last edited by jayne; Jul 18th 2018 at 03:25 PM.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Kailarenee View Post
    - [ ] I need biblical support with a contemporary application
    What you need is a dose of humility and respect. You can dress however you want as you go about your day to day life, that's between God and yourself, however, if the rest of your aunts and cousins wear dresses and t-shirts over their swimsuits and get offended by your crop tops and shorts you should respect their wishes and dress appropriately when at their houses or family events.

    If that is too much to ask then simply recognize the fact that they don't want what they - perceive - to be half dressed girls at their events and so you won't be attending.
    There aren't any scriptures contemporary or otherwise that can be used to say "I don't care if it offends you, you have to see things my way!"

    Sorry.
    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    C.S. Lewis

  6. #6

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    I'd ask you to reflect on what you said here. Beauty is the downfall of a Godly man?

    Judah knew his daughter-in-law Tamar throughout her marriages to two of his sins and her looks never seemed to stir him at all. It wasn't until his wife died and Tamar was disguised with a veil to cover her face - the sign of a prostitute - that he was interested at all. She was veiled. He could not see her face and did not know who she was. His wife had died and he wasn't moved by anything but the availability of a prostitute.

    Amnon - a Godly man?? I've never read of his virtue. Only his vile nature.

    Samson - a Godly man?? Nope. Just because God appointed him to kill some Philistines doesn't make him Godly. He broke every vow of a Nazarite, was self-absorbed like no one in the Bible, and what broke him was not Delilah's beauty, but her pestering him to death about the source of his strength.
    Dear Sister... though your point is taken, do you really think it helps the young lady OP's situation? In light of her questions, and out of everything I posted, THIS is what you wanted to add?


    Point taken on Amnon; I'll choose better examples next time... Sarah and Abraham; Rebekah and Isaac (their beauty caused them to fear Pharoah and lie about them being their wives, thus displeasing God)...Solomon and the Queen of Sheba, Adam and Eve...

    but from a man's perspective, I stand by the assertion of Judah and Tamar (who's beauty was IN her availability, which is one of the points I'm trying to make to the young lady... that sometimes propagating yourself as AVAILABLE in the way you dress is all the enticement a man needs)...

    Samson and Delilah (nitpick all you want about Samson's "godliness"; God chose him from birth... and was with him until he broke the final Nazarite covenant...his godliness is not your call to make, for he is even mentioned among the Hebrews 11 "Hall of Fame Faithful" in verse 32; though I appreciate your female perspective on the story, every man who's read the story knows if she wasn't beautiful, her nagging would have driven a man like Samson away)...

    David and Bathsheba...





    You said this:I'd ask you to reflect on what you said here. Beauty is the downfall of a Godly man?

    That is NOT what I said... I said the downfall of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman. The difference may be slight, but it is there, and I stand by it. If you choose to respond again, please take care that it is meaningful and pertinent to the OP's situation, that you do not end up causing the young lady to stumble...I fear you may have already hindered her growth with your contentions, and derailed this thread by responding to me rather than to her situation...
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Alright, here is what I will say to the OP.

    I have no idea how "cropped" your crop tops are and no idea what you mean by "short" shorts.

    But here is what I do know. Your aunts are treating you like you have already committed sinful acts. Ergo, they are the weaker sisters.

    The Bible says not to offend the weaker brother or sister. So, if you are invited again to their house for a swimming party, wear the darker tee shirt over the swimsuit. If you invited over for a party or reunion, wear full length shirts and longer shorts.

    And....reevaluate what they are saying. I always tell my female friends that when they get dressed for the day, to stand in front of a mirror. Put you arms way over your heads. Hop around. Bend over. Do some jumping jacks. If any of these activities make your clothes reveal what should not be revealed, then change clothes.

    Yes, we do have a rape culture in this world. Yes, women are blamed for it. No, you can't do anything to stop that. Women fully clothed in burkhas are raped as well as women in short skirts. But you can't get the majority of conservative people to understand that.

    However, you can take a good look at that crop top and shorts and reevaluate how the world may see it.

    We have liberty in Christ. But the Bible says that liberty is for serving others.....not living like we please.
    ".....it's your nickel"

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Falconcheff View Post

    That is NOT what I said... I said the downfall of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman. The difference may be slight, but it is there, and I stand by it. If you choose to respond again, please take care that it is meaningful and pertinent to the OP's situation, that you do not end up causing the young lady to stumble...I fear you may have already hindered her growth with your contentions, and derailed this thread by responding to me rather than to her situation...
    I responded to what you said because that's what I chose to respond to.

    I've engaged in "women's clothing" threads on many a forum until I am blue in the face and weary of it.
    ".....it's your nickel"

  9. #9

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Maybe I'm just an old hayseed, but can someone explain to me what a "rape culture" is?

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    It's term began by feminists somewhere around the 70's that claims that society condones sexual violence and places the blame on the victims of rape.
    Rape and sexual assault are horrible and can never be overlooked. That's a given.

    Some in this day and age use this term to claim that they should be able to walk around showing everything they've got and acting however they wish and if they get ogled, catcalls and propositions from those they don't want to attract it's because of "Rape Culture."
    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    C.S. Lewis

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    Judah knew his daughter-in-law Tamar throughout her marriages to two of his sins and her looks never seemed to stir him at all. It wasn't until his wife died and Tamar was disguised with a veil to cover her face - the sign of a prostitute - that he was interested at all. She was veiled. He could not see her face and did not know who she was. His wife had died and he wasn't moved by anything but the availability of a prostitute.
    Excellent example of what lust really looks like. Fantastic!

    Amnon - a Godly man?? I've never read of his virtue. Only his vile nature.
    Agreed

    Samson - a Godly man?? Nope. Just because God appointed him to kill some Philistines doesn't make him Godly. He broke every vow of a Nazarite, was self-absorbed like no one in the Bible, and what broke him was not Delilah's beauty, but her pestering him to death about the source of his strength.
    God praised Samson in Hebrews 11. He had issues, but he was praised by God as a Godly man of faith along with Gideon, Barak, Jephthah, David, and Samuel. All but Samuel had issues. Still, God praised them in His word.

    Hebrews 11:32 And what more shall I say? I do not have time to tell about Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33 who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies. 35 Women received back their dead, raised to life again. There were others who were tortured, refusing to be released so that they might gain an even better resurrection. 36 Some faced jeers and flogging, and even chains and imprisonment. 37 They were put to death by stoning;[e] they were sawed in two; they were killed by the sword. They went about in sheepskins and goatskins, destitute, persecuted and mistreated— 38 the world was not worthy of them.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    I hope to make just a small comment about the statement by Falconcheff as well-
    "That said, Bible history is FULL of stories in which the DOWNFALL of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman..."


    I find it strange that in Patriarchy all responsibility is placed on the male-- (including the actions of wives, daughters) But when it comes to the male falling into sexual sin or evil a statement like this makes it sound as IF the female is responsible for the choices and/or actions of males, whether they be good or bad.

    This is what came to mind for me based on the comment.

    It reminds me how some people believe that when a man and woman are married and the man is not doing what he is responsible to do people will sometimes say it is because he didn't marry someone to cause or inspire him do what is right...and that is just twisted.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God葉hat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I hope to make just a small comment about the statement by Falconcheff as well-
    "That said, Bible history is FULL of stories in which the DOWNFALL of MANY a Godly man has been a beautiful woman..."


    I find it strange that in Patriarchy all responsibility is placed on the male-- But when it comes to the male falling into sexual sin or evil a statement like this makes it sound as IF the female is responsible for the choices and/or actions of males, whether they be good or bad.

    This is what came to mind for me based on the comment.

    It reminds me how some people believe that when a man and woman are married and the man is not doing what he is responsible to do people will sometimes say it is because he didn't marry someone to cause him do what is right...and that is just twisted.
    Yep. God holds the man responsible for his sin and the woman responsible for her sin. Men are weak when it comes to women and that is why the scripture is full of warnings to men about that. But many women already know about this weakness and take advantage. In the end, God will hold both parties responsible and men should be focused on dealing with their lust for sex, and women on their lust for attention. In this way, both men and women could love each other rightly instead of using each other to meet their own desires.

    To blame a woman for a man's lust problem is just obsurd! To say that how a woman dresses has no impact on men is just as obsurd.

    Keck nailed it above and more men need to be focused on their issues than on how women dress.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Kailarenee -

    I am reminded of what Paul said in situations such as this, and it is a wise saying:

    "It is better not to eat meat or drink wine or to do anything else that will cause your brother or sister to fall." Romans 14:21

    Maybe forget about listening to us, them and everyone in between, drop the focus on feminist terminology and excuses and just listen to what God says through Paul.
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Amen brother. That is always the best kind of advice.
    Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It would be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience.

    C.S. Lewis

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