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Thread: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

  1. #16
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Hi Renee and welcome to BF!

    First off I think your accusations of "rape culture" are probably unrelated here. By the sound of it, you are slightly adopting a feminist standpoint. I will do my best to provide a neutral and Biblical standpoint for you.

    I appreciate your frustration, and as the father of 3 young girls, I am soon going to face these issues, but hopefully not to the degree that you are! In any case, my girls are not yet developed or knowledgeable in any way sexually.

    Let's begin with a prayer:

    Lord, give us humility. Start and end there.

    Secondly, recall that "man" (men and women) are designed to be the image of God whereby a married couple represents a sort of ideal of that image, with "woman" being made FOR man, as a helper and companion. DO NOT LOSE SIGHT OF THIS.

    ADVICE: Take a dose of humility and just absorb it, even if there are flaws on both sides of this (there are) then you must adopt the stance of cautious humility. Is it wrong of the older ladies to shun the younger? Yes, it is wrong. They are admonished by scripture to teach the younger women, this is NOT the way to teach. This is rejection. The hurt you feel by this is understandable. Do not react to this in a way to return insult for injury. God gives grace to the humble, he resists the proud.

    Next, recognize that modesty is a Biblical virtue. In other words, seek to be modest, rather than seek to defend your own comfort. To be frank - your tight clothes are a luxury item that culture (the world) affords you, but it is straightforward fact that form fitting clothes make men uncomfortable. It does arouse sexual thoughts, this is biological, not necessarily an issue of lust. Lust comes after, with uncontrolled thoughts and fantasy. Who's comfort is most important here?

    Various thoughts:
    Is your relationship to the older women something you desire to repair or to preserve?
    A mature man can swallow his discomfort around a young attractive woman and take the damage - yes, without thoughts of rape. Living in the world requires this.
    God is gracious, your aunts aught to be as well.
    the world would be a better place if women did not feel the need to expose their curves and form as a mode of increasing their public value (its a fact that both men and women evaluate each other's bodies as a matter of habit)
    Loose clothing is also comfortable.
    how you conduct yourself while wearing any kind of clothing, is more important than the clothing. Is it possible the older ladies perceive any of the younger as licentious or promiscuous by way of any immoral sexual activity? Is there anything you can do to reverse or correct that?
    Wearing a Tshirt at the pool is a reasonable request, and you feeling like you don't fit in with other bikini clad women (if that's an issue) would be evidence of your conformance to the world.
    middle aged men and women, and older women... may have sexual struggles to maintain libido, etc.... in our HIGHLY sexed world, it does become a problem to produce sexual desire at an older age.... this is a statistical fact. men are not so "manly" now. People are not aging as well as they did, thanks to less physical activity, mainly. Have some respect and empathy for those that might be dealing with the loss of their youth. Don't flaunt your beauty, this will come back to bite you and become a great regret, I assure you.

    Proverbs 31:30
    Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the LORD is to be praised.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  2. #17

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by jayne View Post
    Alright, here is what I will say to the OP.

    I have no idea how "cropped" your crop tops are and no idea what you mean by "short" shorts.

    But here is what I do know. Your aunts are treating you like you have already committed sinful acts. Ergo, they are the weaker sisters.
    The trouble with this line of reasoning is that it often fails to differentiate between the weaker brother/sister and the controlling brother/sister. It's easy to say that something offends you with a view to imposing your preferences upon someone else. That said....

    And....reevaluate what they are saying. I always tell my female friends that when they get dressed for the day, to stand in front of a mirror. Put you arms way over your heads. Hop around. Bend over. Do some jumping jacks. If any of these activities make your clothes reveal what should not be revealed, then change clothes.
    I don't know that I'd go as far as jumping jacks but I've often wished women attending church would be a little more conscious about what they wear. Whatever intentions one might have, it's distracting to see a young woman bend over to fuss over her child and see her blouse gape open. It's distracting to see someone sitting in an extremely short skirt. It's distracting to see the "whale-tail" of a thong poking out from the jeans of the girl sitting right in front. As a man it's my responsibility not to dwell on such things but it would be nice if more women could be a little more conscious about what they wear. Nobody is suggesting they wear a burqa, just cover up a little, or at least hold things in place. One female friend of mine routinely holds one hand to her top if she stoops or bends over - it stops her top hanging open and I have to say I really appreciate her doing it.

    Forgot to add, although I wouldn't worry about jumping jacks I would agree entirely that it's a good idea to make the kind of movements you might reasonably expect to make during the course of a day. Reach for something, bend over, squat down, that kind of thing. And, as you say, if things that shouldn't be seen come into view it might be worth reconsidering the outfit.

    Yes, we do have a rape culture in this world. Yes, women are blamed for it. No, you can't do anything to stop that. Women fully clothed in burkhas are raped as well as women in short skirts. But you can't get the majority of conservative people to understand that.
    One problem with terms like "rape culture" is that it shifts focus in ways that aren't always helpful. In an ideal world a beautiful woman could walk naked down the street and not be molested. In an ideal world I could leave my front door wide open while I go out for the day. Sadly we don't live in an ideal world. The blame for a crime rests squarely on the shoulders of the criminal but at the same time it seems like basic common sense to take precautions to protect ourselves from predictable problems. The person who left their front door wide open and got visited by the burglar might be asked questions about why they left their front door open. The woman who decided to walk home alone down a dark alley at night in an area known to have an active rapist might similarly want to reconsider her actions.

    In the context of the OP's question it is often the case that whoever wants the strictest regime gets their way whatever the situation. Essentially what you need to decide is whether to attend wearing something more modest than you might choose, or not attend at all.

  3. #18
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Mark View Post
    Yep. God holds the man responsible for his sin and the woman responsible for her sin. Men are weak when it comes to women and that is why the scripture is full of warnings to men about that. But many women already know about this weakness and take advantage. In the end, God will hold both parties responsible and men should be focused on dealing with their lust for sex, and women on their lust for attention. In this way, both men and women could love each other rightly instead of using each other to meet their own desires.

    To blame a woman for a man's lust problem is just obsurd! To say that how a woman dresses has no impact on men is just as obsurd.

    Keck nailed it above and more men need to be focused on their issues than on how women dress.
    I'm not so sure women "take advantage" so much as some women have issues, some men have issues.
    Clothed or not, anyone can behave sexy or not. Character, behavior rather than dress is more of an issue...IMO.
    I mean the same thing could be said about men about taking advantage--- so maybe what you said first is best: We are all responsible for our own sin.
    Peace to you!

    It is because of Him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from Godóthat is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

    1 Corinthians 1:30


  4. #19
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Scooby_Snacks View Post
    I'm not so sure women "take advantage" so much as some women have issues, some men have issues.
    Clothed or not, anyone can behave sexy or not. Character, behavior rather than dress is more of an issue...IMO.
    I mean the same thing could be said about men about taking advantage--- so maybe what you said first is best: We are all responsible for our own sin.
    Sure they do. Same with men. Many people are out for self and use other people's weaknesses to their advantage. Both sexes do it. And yes, both have issues. And those issues, sourced from our self centeredness, desire to use other people to get what we want.

    Behavior matters. But men respond to what they see too (which is why the world is awash in swimsuit mags, and other things that abuse/objectify both men and women). Dress matters. That's why Adam and Eve clothed themselves after eating. Its why God clothed them afterwards too. Its why God directed ladies to dress modestly. Yet, no matter what a woman does, men are held responsible for their sin. No matter what men do, women are held responsible for their sin. No one gets off the hook and no one can blame the other. Yet, we don't live in a vacuum and other people impact our behavior, thoughts, etc. However, let me say this... if lust is in a man's heart, it doesn't matter how a woman dresses. He will lust. That was what Jayne pointed out in one of her posts earlier about the veil.

    One of the worst things about legalism is it is not based in love but rather force and "law". As Keck wrote earlier, if men respected women, much of this would not be a problem. I would say it another way, if men loved women, it wouldn't be an issue either. And if women loved men, there would be near the problem for them. Thing is, we love self... a lot. Only Jesus can really help us.
    Matt 9:13
    13 "But go and learn what this means: ' I DESIRE COMPASSION,AND NOT SACRIFICE,' for I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners."
    NASU

  5. #20
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Perhaps some women would feel it unfair, but I would argue that the basic nature of things requires that they take efforts to protect the conscience of those around them, namely men, but sometimes women too.

    In other words, women have a social obligation that men don't have, which is to cover their bodies in modest manner for the sake of others. This is an act of consideration and selfless love for others. Quite frankly, in the feminist perspective, it "isn't fair". God never made things "fair" between the sexes though. That's our idea.

    It is sad that so many young Christian women are indignant any time this comes up. The church needs to come up with a better way of encouraging and praising and admiring modesty, so that women are not enticed to display themselves and seek admiration in a different direction.

    Girls like attention, it's really that simple. Lets give attention for the right things. And in the summer of 2018 with girls all around everywhere wearing shorts that passed for underwear 20 yrs ago... it's all too easy to drift toward turning heads with your "God given" assets. C'mon ladies, lets all be mature. There is no need to be overly righteous and have older ladies shun or mock the younger. We merely need to show love and preference to one another, on all sides.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  6. #21
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    If we love one another we ought not put a stumbling block before our brothers and sisters. I'll be honest, it was only 3 short years ago that I still felt it was acceptable to dress a little more worldly. Not slutty in anyway, just tight revealing shirts or even shorts above the knees. I thought men need to own up to their own weaknesses and just resist temptation. But the Lord really convicted me of this. He showed me that I was not loving "my neighbor" and I was not loving my brothers in Christ because I was causing them to stumble. It takes genuine humility to obey God in this manner and I was lacking in that area. I have even been contemplating wearing a scarf on my head for this reason as well as for the purpose of prayer. But we will see if I have the courage to do that. Besides, in the summer months that's gonna be awful warm.
    Romans 14:13.
    It seems to me you could stand to show the individuals throwing the party a little respect and humbly honor their requests.
    It just may be they are trying to limit the temptations that dressing worldly can cause. Should your own male relatives be excited by your exposed flesh? No! However, they are only human and even if those men don't find you desirable, it may stir a hunger in them for sinful pleasures with other women. Also seeing you dressed like other worldly women could cause the other females to be tempted to step out of their chosen lifestyle and try to dress a bit more provocatively...thus causing them to stumble.
    Or it just may be these older women don't like looking at all your stuff. I have a friend, whom I love dearly, that still wears tight shirts that show her cleavage and she wears mini skirts. I personally am bothered by the fact that every time I try to glance in her direction, if my aim isn't exactly right, I get an eyeful of her breasts. Not cool...I don't enjoy looking at women's bodies...I'm a woman. And yet as a woman I can say we are nicer to look at. So if a straight woman thinks we are nicer to look at; try to imagine what a straight man thinks about when he's exposed to all of your flesh. Have mercy and show a little modesty please.

    Also, I wanted to add that my daughter is also a young adult who hangs around other young Christian adults. They all practice a surprising amount of modesty. This is not by force however. They do this to honor God, and because they wish to be treated with some respect by whatever man they marry. They wish to be thought of first as holy daughter's of God, and secondly as women worthy of being married to God honoring men. These all attend a contemporary church. But you see, our church really pushes small group bible studies and they push mentorship and discipling. These young adults know what the Bible teaches and they have chosen to follow Jesus. Even the young men strive for purity. Many are waiting until marriage. Even if they aren't virgins, they have turned away from the worldly life and turned wholly toward Jesus.
    They are an amazing bunch of young people! Dear girl, God is in the middle of doing something big, preparing His bride, don't miss out on all the excitement, just dive in head first!
    Last edited by Saved7; Jul 22nd 2018 at 03:39 AM.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  7. #22
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    In other words, women have a social obligation that men don't have, which is to cover their bodies in modest manner for the sake of others.
    Men have the same obligation

  8. #23
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Men have the same obligation
    I totally and emphatically agree....

    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  9. #24
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I totally and emphatically agree....

    Yeah brother, head now to Eden

  10. #25
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Sigh.

    Perhaps some of you people should take a good, long look at your own lives.

    I sure know that I have room for improvement.

  11. #26

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    I am 83 years old.

    And I can remember back when the lady's skirt became shorter, just below the knee was ok !
    But above the knee was , shocking to me and people I knew...... and it stinks hurts me to see a lady breast showing,
    because they have a low cut top......... The world is supposed to get worst and it sure has started.
    Eph. 2:8
    For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
    9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

  12. #27
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Athanasius View Post
    Men have the same obligation
    Nope, I really don't think so. It's not the same.

    Let's review the evidence from scripture then eh??

    If we review from the start.... it was angels that left heaven because they saw that women were beautiful..... so there is something special about the fairer sex that seems to weigh on this. If we go to the other end of the sandwich.... the bottom piece of bread is somewhat close to where Paul asserts that it is a shame that a woman have short hair. We may dismiss this if we wish, under cultural guise, but Paul doesn't use culture as his basis, he uses God's glory....

    I'm not going to say that men have no obligation at all, but the point was that women have a great deal more of it. This just isn't an equivalent situation.
    As the "thief" in the night, Christ is going to suddenly appear on the throne of Israel - not the antichrist.

  13. #28
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Nope, I really don't think so. It's not the same.
    I think you've misunderstand. When I say they have the same obligation, I don't mean that the working-out of that obligation is the same necessarily. In this case, men and women have the same obligation to be conscious of, and respectful of, each other. How each sex works that out differs, but it would be sheer naivety to suggest that the onus is more on women than on men, not to mention a failure to consider the viewpoint of the other.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    Let's review the evidence from scripture then eh??

    If we review from the start.... it was angels that left heaven because they saw that women were beautiful..... so there is something special about the fairer sex that seems to weigh on this.
    You're suggesting that we ought to read Paul as if he's affirming that ethereal beings who do not marry, and from which we can infer do not have sex drives, left the glory of heaven to inhabit a fallen, sinful world because they were attracted to human women, who are of an entirely different species? I don't mean 21st century women, either. Let's not forget just how dirty the human race is, and has been for most of history. Can you imagine the horrific smell? But then also let's not forget that these angels would then have to become human (diminishing our creation), which would then make them transspecies, transgender, and who knows what else. And, who is to even say that angels are attracted to humans at all, sexually, or even capable of it?

    But then let's also not lose sight of the further implication of this reading that angels might again fall, and we can assume certainly have in the time since Paul's writing given that head coverings aren't a thing in the vastly populated regions of the world. Billions of women with uncovered heads. Errant angels must be giddy with joy, so long as they avoid the Islamic world.

    No, that's a poor reading of Paul that's probably informed by a poor interpretation of Genesis 6 (an example of how bad theology in one area wrests our understanding from another).

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    If we go to the other end of the sandwich.... the bottom piece of bread is somewhat close to where Paul asserts that it is a shame that a woman have short hair. We may dismiss this if we wish, under cultural guise, but Paul doesn't use culture as his basis, he uses God's glory....
    Women ought not have short hair, and men ought not have long hair! I'm going to assume that there's more going on than a surface reading of the text would suggest. Was it really such a shame for God to give Samson strength by means of his long hair, or to require those who had taken a Nazarite vow not to cut their hair? This is a dense, confusing passage from Paul, but almost certainly it's not teaching what you're suggesting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    I'm not going to say that men have no obligation at all, but the point was that women have a great deal more of it. This just isn't an equivalent situation.
    Men have a great deal more of their obligation than woman, who have a great deal more of their obligation than men. Men are visual creatures so it might seem as if women have more responsibility, but just as a woman ought to dress modesty, so too ought a man treat her respectfully.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aijalon View Post
    In other words, women have a social obligation that men don't have, which is to cover their bodies in modest manner for the sake of others.
    So do men. Women have eyes too, and so do gay men, and jealous men. The responsibility goes both ways.

  14. #29
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    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    I agree that men also have a social responsibility for the sake of the women. Women have desires and should not be tempted by a man that is not her husband. And honestly, if men are to be leaders in accordance with the way God designed things, then don't they have an obligation to lead by example?
    While we live in a fallen world and not everyone is a Christian, we Christians should be at least concerned enough with the welfare of our brothers and sisters to TRY not to cause any further temptations than necessary. I think this is one of those "be not conformed to the world" issues.
    However, I do think we need to be gracious in correcting one another. This young woman asked for our input and it was given. Now if we attended the same church and I thought she was dressed inappropriately for a Christian and I was not close to her nor had any authority in her life, I wouldn't say a word...unless she asked. Otherwise, I would just pray Because I know we are all in our own place spiritually, and we all walk at the pace the Lord has set forth for us.
    Don't seek too much knowledge. You just may be putting more weight on your shoulders than you're able to bare. Let God be the one to decide how quickly you grow.

  15. #30

    Re: Rape Culture / Modesty / Family

    Quote Originally Posted by gringo300 View Post
    Sigh.

    Perhaps some of you people should take a good, long look at your own lives.

    I sure know that I have room for improvement.
    Enough of this PC "non-judgmental" church nonsense...The OP asked for advice in love; in love, advice was given.
    Jesus said, "Out of the hardness of your hearts Moses gave a writ of divorce; but from the beginning it was not so." How many more things do you suppose are, "From the beginning, NOT so?"

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