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Thread: Who are the true Israelites

  1. #946
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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by ForHisglory View Post
    Actually most would think Isaiah 22 was fulfilled when the armies of Elam and Persia conquered under the leadership of Cyrus. Dan 5 even speaks of the banquet they have, and yet the city is taken. Also people it seems there was no battle.
    Great example of your confusion and denial.
    Daniel 5 is about Cyrus conquering Babylon, nothing to do with Israel or Jerusalem.

    There was a battle then, as Cyrus and his troops waded in the Euphrates river, under Babylon's wall, wiped out their army and killed Belshazzar.
    But the yet to happen attack by Iran and its proxies, aided by all the Islamic nations, will not be a war, as the Lord will destroy them all by His Day of wrath by fire from the sun, that will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that terrible Day and will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Why don't you quote scripture?
    I do. And you ignore it. Why do you quote scripture on events that happened 2500 years ago? Why don't you quote Ezekiel 37? Isaiah 52? 54?
    I suppose your understanding of Isa 54 (very powerful BTW) is about (as we used to call it) the Millenium.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    I suppose your understanding of Isa 54 (very powerful BTW) is about (as we used to call it) the Millenium.
    I don't know what the "millennium" is. Isaiah 54 is about the messianic era.

    My sig comes from that chapter: "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you. With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.


    It's all about God redeeming the Jewish exiles and brining us back to the land of Israel. Furthermore:

    For this is to Me as the waters of Noah, as I swore that the waters of Noah shall never again pass over the earth, so have I sworn neither to be wroth with you nor to rebuke you. For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    God will never be angry with us again. The mountains themselves will wear away in time, but even after all that time passes, God's kindness will not depart.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    I don't know what the "millennium" is. Isaiah 54 is about the messianic era.
    With the Millennium we also mean the Messianic era but it is an extended version as you can read in Rev 20 and on. It will last 1000 years where after the last battle will take place (Gog and Magog per Eze 38-39) followed by judgement and salvation (Isa 65), followed by the New Heavens and a New Earth (Isa 65:17-25).

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    My sig comes from that chapter: "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you. With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.


    It's all about God redeeming the Jewish exiles and brining us back to the land of Israel. Furthermore:

    For this is to Me as the waters of Noah, as I swore that the waters of Noah shall never again pass over the earth, so have I sworn neither to be wroth with you nor to rebuke you. For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    God will never be angry with us again. The mountains themselves will wear away in time, but even after all that time passes, God's kindness will not depart.
    Wonderful Scripture although I can't find the word "tension" in my Bibles

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Great example of your confusion and denial.
    Daniel 5 is about Cyrus conquering Babylon, nothing to do with Israel or Jerusalem.
    Wow, you are confused.
    Daniel 5 is abut the Babylonian kingdom (which ruled Israel and Jerusalem) falling to the armies of Cyrus.
    When Cyrus conquers Babylon he also takes over the Jewish people, and has in his power the ability to restore them to their land or not.

    There was a battle then, as Cyrus and his troops waded in the Euphrates river, under Babylon's wall, wiped out their army and killed Belshazzar.
    But the yet to happen attack by Iran and its proxies, aided by all the Islamic nations, will not be a war, as the Lord will destroy them all by His Day of wrath by fire from the sun, that will literally fulfil all the graphic prophesies about that terrible Day and will set the scene for all that must happen before Jesus Returns.
    No battle, just a few people killed.
    However don;t let historical reality AND the Biblical connection distract you...

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by ProDeo View Post
    With the Millennium we also mean the Messianic era but it is an extended version as you can read in Rev 20 and on. It will last 1000 years where after the last battle will take place (Gog and Magog per Eze 38-39) followed by judgement and salvation (Isa 65), followed by the New Heavens and a New Earth (Isa 65:17-25).
    Ah. Interesting. Ok, thanks.

    Wonderful Scripture although I can't find the word "tension" in my Bibles
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    "A Chosen Generation"
    In the New Testament it is Christians only, Jews and Gentiles, who are revealed as God's chosen people and God's holy nation. A few thousand Jews did become Christians then and many are now. But for the rest, Jesus cursed the fig tree and called them members of the synagogue of Satan.
    1 Peter 2:1-lO...They that are with Him [Christ] are called and chosen. [Revelation 17:14; Ephesians 1:4] Peter was writing to Christians: new born babes, lively stones, to a spiritual people, who are the holy priesthood, elect and precious.
    The Lord Jesus has become the chief cornerstone of all these new and living stones. He is building only ONE spiritual nation, ONE spiritual temple!
    Mathew 21:42. This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.
    Luke 3:8.Truly, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

    To be an Israelite of the promised Seed, one must now be bringing forth good fruit of the spirit from "good ground" and not of the flesh, either in 30, 60, or up to 100 fold in God's spiritual measure - Mat.l3:23. Because the religious system of Israel rejected Christ as the chief cornerstone and bearer of good fruit, Jesus said to the Jews: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [as a natural literal nation], and given to [newly incorporated Christian] a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43

    There is only one Way all must come - John 14:6 That way is not through natural lineage and inheritance, but through the acceptance of God's grace found in Jesus Christ the Lord. There is only one new Covenant and God makes that Covenant only with true believers.

    Who is now and shall yet be a part of the new people of God? The natural Jews?
    Yes, but only as individuals, as Christian Israelites in a totally new and different nation: citizens of a new city, a new government. They must come through Christ in the same manner as any nationality before they can become new citizens of this new nation in all that area promised to Abraham and his descendants by faith. Heb.11:10-16
    Natural Israel did not obtain that which they sought, but the chosen [and faithful] people have attained it. Romans 11:7, Romans 8:29-30

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Hey Keraz, did you like my post on how the IDF prays to God before battle and Jews pray to God for the IDF?
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Hey Keraz, did you like my post on how the IDF prays to God before battle and Jews pray to God for the IDF?
    I do like how those soldiers pray and we are all pleased when the IDF and the IAF do a good job of destroying the Islamic preparations for war. .

    However, these prayers and supplications must be made in honest faith and in true belief of God's power to help them. Reading Isaiah 58:1-7, it seems that is not always the case.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    "A Chosen Generation"
    In the New Testament it is Christians only, Jews and Gentiles, who are revealed as God's chosen people and God's holy nation. A few thousand Jews did become Christians then and many are now. But for the rest, Jesus cursed the fig tree and called them members of the synagogue of Satan.
    1 Peter 2:1-lO...They that are with Him [Christ] are called and chosen. [Revelation 17:14; Ephesians 1:4] Peter was writing to Christians: new born babes, lively stones, to a spiritual people, who are the holy priesthood, elect and precious.
    The Lord Jesus has become the chief cornerstone of all these new and living stones. He is building only ONE spiritual nation, ONE spiritual temple!
    Mathew 21:42. This is the Lord's doing and it is marvellous in our eyes.
    Luke 3:8.Truly, God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.
    To bad there is no Scripture that says what you say. Actually Peter's letters are written to the Jews in diaspora, those scattered. It says in the first verse: « Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia ». The word « diaspora » is never used for Gentiles. The words « the strangers scattered » is actually that one word in the source text: diaspora. When you look up this word in a dictonary — oxford for example — you will see this is about Jews and goes all the way back to the LXX where it is translated like this in Deuteronomy 28:25.

    To be an Israelite of the promised Seed, one must now be bringing forth good fruit of the spirit from "good ground" and not of the flesh, either in 30, 60, or up to 100 fold in God's spiritual measure - Mat.l3:23. Because the religious system of Israel rejected Christ as the chief cornerstone and bearer of good fruit, Jesus said to the Jews: The kingdom of God shall be taken from you [as a natural literal nation], and given to [newly incorporated Christian] a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. Matthew 21:43
    Where does it say in Scripture one has to do these things to be or become « promised Seed »? Nowhere, it does say however who the promised seed is:

    Gen. 21:12 « And God said unto Abraham, Let it not be grievous in thy sight because of the lad, and because of thy bondwoman; in all that Sarah hath said unto thee, hearken unto her voice; for in Isaac shall thy seed be called ».

    You see? All we have to do is believe the written word of the Lord, it doesn't matter how many of how much good fruit we bring to the forth, we always be Gentiles and not the seed. The fact the Jews rejected their Messiah is luckily of no consequence to them, the Lord Jesus took care of that Himself: Luke 23:34 « Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do ». So they are not eradicated, punished, hold accountable or looked upon for it.

    There is only one Way all must come - John 14:6 That way is not through natural lineage and inheritance, but through the acceptance of God's grace found in Jesus Christ the Lord. There is only one new Covenant and God makes that Covenant only with true believers.
    What does the New Covenant (closed with Israel, which is literally said twice in Scripture: Jer. 31:31 and Heb. 8:8) got to do with Gentiles? I will explain for you the difference between the Old and New Covenant.

    The Lord gave the Israelite the Law, this is not the Old Covenant, the Old Covenant is that the Israelite said in Exo. 19:8 « And all the people (Israel) ... said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. ... ». This was repeated Exo. 24:7 « All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient » and confirmed — as was done back then — with blood in Exo. 24:8 « And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the LORD hath made with you concerning all these words ». This is the Old Covenant. They brook it, that is undeniable but are they now for once and for all done away with? Of course not, God knew they would do this, so the New Covenant is there. To make sure people like you are not going to appropriate Israel's inheritance, look carefully at the words of Heb. 8:8 and 9 « ... I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah » not a single Gentile is named nor in sight here and: « Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt ... ». This is printed black on white in every Bible, you however read something completely different here, that my friend is called « spiritualization », and spiritualization turns the sharp twoedged sword (Heb. 4:12) in to a blunt club.

    Who is now and shall yet be a part of the new people of God? The natural Jews?
    Yes, but only as individuals, as Christian Israelites in a totally new and different nation: citizens of a new city, a new government. They must come through Christ in the same manner as any nationality before they can become new citizens of this new nation in all that area promised to Abraham and his descendants by faith. Heb.11:10-16
    Natural Israel did not obtain that which they sought, but the chosen [and faithful] people have attained it. Romans 11:7, Romans 8:29-30
    Beautiful words Keraz, to bad their is not one single Scriptural truth in them. Gentiles are nationS, they are not one nation, that is only Israel. Those who are blessed with Abraham (Gal. 3:9) are never called a nation (except those from his natural seed trough Isaac, Jacob and the twelve patriarchs), because they are from all nationS, including Israel. What both Israelite and Gentiles are is the new creation, in which is no Jew nor Gentile, no man nor woman, they will be like the angels as our Lord says in Mat. 22:30 « For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven ».

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Also, those references in Revelation about "synagogue of Satan" could actually be in reference to those in the Church who claim to be Jews but are not. i.e. the Replacement Theology crowd. Actually, the context fits. Those letters were to the Churches, all of which were in Turkey (Asia Minor) and predominately Gentile. One might be able to shoe horn Keraz's idea about that if the letters were written to Churches in Israel where there would have been a substantial number of the Christian congregations that were ethnically Jewish and the delineation of a "true" Jewish remnant / believing remnant could be applied.

    One has to be amazed at the history behind all this. In the NT era, a push to have gentile believers live under the Torah cropped up now and again and had to be dealt with. And once gentiles became the predominate group in the Church, there was, and has been, a push to negate the ethnically Jewish people. When they couldn't do it one way, they would try another. The latest being "there are no Jews who can prove a genetic linkage to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob". Well somehow, YHVH has it figured out as He manages to separate 144K of them from 12 different tribes in the future. But some try to get around that by buying into Preterism and other goofy ideas about The Revelation.

    And it still is like headlights of an oncoming car..... Hosea 5:14-6:2. Yeshua makes it very clear that He would return to His place until Israel (both houses in V14) acknowledge its offense of rejecting Him, turn to Him, and petition for His return....... BEFORE He will ever return. He reaffirmed that in Matthew 23:39. There has to be a physical, unbelieving Jewish people (Ezekiel 36-37) that will eventually turn to Yeshua (what the GT period is all about) and cry out for Him to rescue them. That is what the scriptures mean by "and all Israel will be saved". It will be those who are still alive at those events. For one to try and fit the idea of the redeemed believers (being the only true Jews) into that context is ridiculous to the extreme and that person might want to consider drug rehab.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    I consider my friend Fenris a blessing to me. Both physically and spiritually.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    I do like how those soldiers pray and we are all pleased when the IDF and the IAF do a good job of destroying the Islamic preparations for war. .

    However, these prayers and supplications must be made in honest faith and in true belief of God's power to help them. Reading Isaiah 58:1-7, it seems that is not always the case.
    Being as neither you nor I can read minds, we cannot possibly know whether such prayers are made in "honest faith". What we can see are the results however: The Jewish armies, praying to God, defeat the Arab armies, praying to Allah.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I consider my friend Fenris a blessing to me. Both physically and spiritually.
    Your friendship is a blessing to me as well, Keck.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    The convoluted and slightly desperate attempts above, to make the Jewish people to be still the chosen people of God, are totally negated by one verse:
    Therefore; I tell you that the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a nation that bears the proper fruit. Matthew 21:43

    What 'fruit' does that new nation [peoples] bear? The fruit of the Spirit; Galatians 5:22 Faithful Christian people, God's holy nation, still scattered, soon to be gathered.

    Arastakos, Cliff and Keck, your loyalties are misplaced. Jesus Himself cursed the Jews and said they would be unfruitful. Matthew 21:19
    You do that in the mistaken and wrong belief that the Christians will be taken to heaven, while God deals correction to the Jews on earth. Neither of those beliefs will happen.
    It is only those, Jew and Gentile who have accepted Jesus NOW, who will be saved.

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