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Thread: Who are the true Israelites

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    Who are the true Israelites

    The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israelites of God. Galatians 6:15-16
    Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
    They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.
    The prophecy of Caiaphas, John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

    Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
    Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

    What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
    It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.
    John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

    Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

    The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.
    Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
    But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction? Jeremiah 18:1-12

    These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27

  2. #2

    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    "26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God." Rom9:26.

    This can ONLY be said in reference to Israel ("in the place where IT WAS SAID UNTO THEM..." ; see also Hosea 1:10-11 [re: Israel]... [whereas, by contrast, Rom9:25/Hos2:23b refers to the Gentiles ; Romans 9-11 context refers to "nations": "Israel [singular nation], and the "Gentiles [plural nations]" and their relation to "God's governmental ways upon the earth" (the Olive tree/root&fatness of)]).



    "...blindness in part is happened to Israel, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in [G1525 - eiselthe]." Rom11:25 (see also v.15).


    Hosea 5:15-6:3 also refers to Israel's FUTURE. "in their affliction, they will seek Me early"... "in the third day He will raise us up, and we [Israel] shall live in His sight. Then shall we [Israel] know, if we follow on to know the Lord: ..." (corresponding also with Ezek37:12-14,20-23; Rom11:15; Dan12:1-3; Isa26:16-21; John 6:39 [distinct from v.40]; etc, ALL about Israel's FUTURE).

    Additionally, The Revelation refers to the 144,000 "of all the tribes of the children of Israel" [12,000 of each tribe] that are listed there (chpt 7), which I believe to be a FUTURE setting/context. I believe what it plainly says.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israelites of God. Galatians 6:15-16
    Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20

    ...
    Brother, the above bold is written by you, not the Holy Spirit. You have added - a serious matter if you believe Revelation 22:18-19;

    18 "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
    19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."


    Here is the true rendering of Revelation 3:20-21;

    20 "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
    21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne."


    You have ADDED
    • "my people of Israel"
    • "MY overcomers"
    • "the Victorious ones"
    • "the Israelites of God"

    The minute you add to a verse or text, your argument is gone. You have to base your arguments on what IS there, NOT what is NOT THERE! And, I'm sure you will agree, a man who adds or subtracts from this Book of Revelation is either very brave or very foolish, considering the threat of "all the plagues of this Book"!

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    I have reported on this many times before, but a repetition might be of value. It concerns Galatians 6:16. It reads;

    "And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God."

    The proponents of the doctrine that the Church is Israel, or an extension of Israel, or the "True Israel", produce this verse to show it. In doing so they display a woeful lack of knowledge of Language, and a lack of knowledge of the complete revelation of the Bible.

    Grammar:
    The word "and" (in bold above) is a CONJUNCTION. It JOINS two or more DIFFERENT things together. "The boy AND the girl died in the car accident." "The bread AND the butter." "Israel AND the Church" Thus, the verse above shows Paul asking for peace and mercy on those who walked according to the "this rule", that is, NO CIRCUMCISION and A NEW CREATURE, AND he asks for peace and mercy on the Israel of God - TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT ENTITIES. Israel MUST CIRCUMCISE and Israel is NOT a NEW CREATURE.

    The Context of the Bible, the New Testament and Galatians:
    1. From Noah to Abraham we have the Gentiles, or the Nations. They are born from Adam via Noah
    2. From Abraham we have (i) the Nations AND (ii) the Nation of Israel - those born from Adam via Noah via Isaac
    3. From Jesus Christ we have (i) the Nations, (ii) the Nation of Israel, and (iii) the Church - those born NEW by the Holy Spirit

    These three Entities are seen over and over again in the new Testament;
    • Rome, one of the Nations, rules Israel (1 & 2)
    • Herod of the Edomite Nation rules the Israelites (1 & 2)
    • In Acts Chapter 2 faithful Israelites, who were living among the Nations (v.5) came to Jerusalem (1 & 2)
    • Israel, ruled by the nations, and dispersed among all nations "under the sun" gave audience to the Disciples of Jesus - the Church (all 3 entities)
    • Israel did not approve of the Church because Moses was put away (2 & 3)
    • Israel persecuted and killed members of the Church (2 & 3)
    • Israel tried to force the Law on the Church
    • In New Jerusalem, when all is consummated, the WALLS are the Church and the GATES are the 12 Tribes of Israel (2 & 3)
    • In New Jerusalem, when all is consummated, The (i) Walls are the Church, the (ii) Gates are Israel, AND (iii) the Nations are outside the Walls and Gates - THREE ENTITIES!

    And in Galatians this CONTRAST of men under grace, the Church, AND men under the Law of Moses is the main theme of the book (2 & 3). All through the Book of Galatians Paul CONTRAST Law and Grace, and CONTRASTS Israel and the Church. But Paul, once a leading Israelite, has a heavy heart for his once "kinsmen according to the flesh" (Rom.9:3). And so, when he concludes the CONTRAST of those under Law and those under Grace, he prays for God's blessing ON BOTH. He prays Gods blessing on those who reject circumcision and promote the New Birth, AND he prays God's blessing on THE Israel of God - TWO OPPOSING and CONFLICTING ENTITIES who both belong to God but are utterly DIFFERENT.

    GALATIANS 6:16 CONFIRMS BY BOTH THE GRAMMAR AND THE CONTEXT THAT THE CHURCH AND ISRAEL ARE DIFFERENT ENTITIES! It shows the OPPOSITE of the doctrine that The Church is Israel, or that it is the "True Israel".

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Thanks for your replies. I gave a copy of my article to 4 pastors, they simply didn't respond.

    DW in #2, said that Romans 9:26 can only refer to Israel, I assume that you mean Jewish Israelis. Who then; are the Israel of Romans 9:27?
    In the very place where it was said unto them.....This is the holy Land. But you don't realize that all the people of God will be there by then. They gather there soon after the entire area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord on His Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10 and many other prophesies put it plainly. In the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
    You also mention the 144,000. They are from every tribe of Israel. The Jews only represent 2 tribes. Where do the other 10 come from?


    Walls; you like to think I have added to the Bible. Is explanation of Hebrew meanings that? The word Israel, literally means overcomer and victorious; one who prevails with God.
    Your lengthy rebuttal of Galatians 6:16, where it is plainly stated that; those who follow this principal, [Christianity] to be their guide, are the Israel of God, is just done so as to keep the Two Peoples, Two Promises; a major tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
    The grammar is as the translators like to make it and the context of all of the Letter to the Galatians, is about faith and proper Christian living.

    Both the 2P,2P and the 'rapture' are unscriptural and both contradict many Bible teachings. There is only one people of God; Ephesians 4:4-6, John 17:20-23, + and there is nowhere in the Bible where it says God will take His people to heaven.

    I note that the other scriptures that I quoted, remain unaddressed. And regarding the Jewish people, Jesus has some very harsh Words for them: John 8:39-43, Luke 19:27, Revelation 2:9, plus in Matthew 3:7-10, Romans 2:17-24
    The Jewish people now, do still have the opportunity to be grafted back into the true Tree of Israel: Jesus. But not for much longer and only a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Thanks for your replies. I gave a copy of my article to 4 pastors, they simply didn't respond.

    DW in #2, said that Romans 9:26 can only refer to Israel, I assume that you mean Jewish Israelis. Who then; are the Israel of Romans 9:27?
    In the very place where it was said unto them.....This is the holy Land. But you don't realize that all the people of God will be there by then. They gather there soon after the entire area is cleared and cleansed by the Lord on His Day of wrath. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Isaiah 35:1-10 and many other prophesies put it plainly. In the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5
    You also mention the 144,000. They are from every tribe of Israel. The Jews only represent 2 tribes. Where do the other 10 come from?


    Walls; you like to think I have added to the Bible. Is explanation of Hebrew meanings that? The word Israel, literally means overcomer and victorious; one who prevails with God.
    Your lengthy rebuttal of Galatians 6:16, where it is plainly stated that; those who follow this principal, [Christianity] to be their guide, are the Israel of God, is just done so as to keep the Two Peoples, Two Promises; a major tenet of the 'rapture to heaven' theory.
    The grammar is as the translators like to make it and the context of all of the Letter to the Galatians, is about faith and proper Christian living.

    Both the 2P,2P and the 'rapture' are unscriptural and both contradict many Bible teachings. There is only one people of God; Ephesians 4:4-6, John 17:20-23, + and there is nowhere in the Bible where it says God will take His people to heaven.

    I note that the other scriptures that I quoted, remain unaddressed. And regarding the Jewish people, Jesus has some very harsh Words for them: John 8:39-43, Luke 19:27, Revelation 2:9, plus in Matthew 3:7-10, Romans 2:17-24
    The Jewish people now, do still have the opportunity to be grafted back into the true Tree of Israel: Jesus. But not for much longer and only a remnant will be saved. Isaiah 6:11-13
    Good. Now the reader can judge. Did you build an argument taking the text you propose contextually and grammatically correct? May the reader judge. But nevertheless, God's abundant blessings on you

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    The people who hear the voice of Jesus and do what Jesus says: are my people of Israel, My Overcomers, the Victorious ones, literally the Israelites of God. Revelation 3:20-21 Not ethnic Israel, but the genuine Christian Israelites of God. Galatians 6:15-16
    Jesus sent His Disciple-Apostles to Israel and Israel alone. Their mission was amazingly successful, resulting in the millions of Christians worldwide. Revelation 3:20
    They didn’t disobey Jesus’ Command, because the people who heard the Gospel and who responded, plainly were Israelites, the ‘dispersion’, as John 7:35 informs us.
    The prophecy of Caiaphas, John 11:50-52, was that; Jesus would die for the nation, in order to gather together the scattered children of God.

    Jesus calls us His sheep, because we hear Him. Just as Noah heard God, and just as Abraham heard God. God says that no other people have heard Him but those with the faith of Abraham. He tells us that these are the people He chose... because they heard Him. Deuteronomy 7:6-10
    Ephesians 1:4-5 Before the foundation of the world, He chose those who would accept Christ to be His people, to be without blemish in His sight and full of love of Him and their fellow men. It was His good will and pleasure that we Christians are predestined to be adopted as God’s children through Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour.

    What else can it mean, but that every person who has understanding and who accepts the Gospel of Jesus, belongs to the true Israel? Grafted into the one Seed; Jesus, but an originally chosen, natural-born Israelite. John 15:16, 1 Peter 2:9-10

    Since every nation in the world has been completely genetically mixed, the sheep who hear Jesus' voice are from all the tribes, races, nations and languages. Revelation 7:9
    It IS the way to know that we ARE the true Israel, because we DO hear Jesus and as faithful Christians, worship and obey Him.
    John 10:1-18 tells us in very specific terms, the nature of the sheep and the shepherd. If we truly match that definition, mind and soul, we have the faith of Abraham in our being.

    Isaiah 51:1-2 Listen to Me, all you who follow after righteousness, all who seek the Lord. Consider the Rock from which you are descended. Consider Abraham, your father and Sarah, your mother, when I called him, he was but one; I Blessed him and he is now many. This is a direct reference to Christians.

    The other aspect to this doctrine; is how some people are made for different purposes. Call it predestination, or God, the Potter making some ‘vessels’ to be kept and some to be discarded.
    Romans 9:21-22 Surely the Potter can do what He likes with the clay? Is He not free to make two vessels out of the same lump, one to be treasured and one for common use?
    But if it is indeed God’s purpose to display His retribution and to make His power known, it is that with great patience, He has tolerated vessels that are made for destruction? Jeremiah 18:1-12

    These are Bible truths, therefore it is beholden for us, who have had heard the ‘call of the Lord’ in our hearts, to be very sure to stand strong in our faith at all times and look forward to the great Day when Jesus comes, bringing our rewards with Him. Matthew 16:27
    First of all Israel is never in Scripture a combination of Jews (the whole of Israel) and gentiles. Provide me the Scripture I dare you.

    Second, appropriating Israels promises takes you astray from what is promised in the current dispensation to both Gentile and Jew both as uncircumcised.

    Third, you are — unintentionally I hope — turning God into a deceiver who has promised things to a chosen nation and now gives those things to others.

    Now about the name of Israel. The first time the Jews (the whole of Israel) are called this way is in Gen. 36:31 « And these are the kings that reigned in the land of Edom, before there reigned any king over the children of Israel ».

    These are the descendents of Jacob whom God renamed Israel (Gen. 35:10) who are the descendents of Jacob (Israel)? His twelve sons, the firstborn being Reuben (Gen. 29:31) and the 11 others followed. These twelve are the origin of the twelve tribes of which the nation Israel is build up. That's it, there is no other Israel. Of course you can make one up as you do, but that is your error.

    When you look at the promises to Israel, they are all on earth, not in heaven. There is so much proof of this I don't even know where to start. The first time is in Exo. 19:6 « And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel ». This is actually still so as Peter tells us: 1 Pet. 2:9 « But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light ». This alone is enough to see that we gentiles are not Israel and will not get their promises. Paul confirms this by the way in 1 Cor. 2:9 « But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him ». The promises made to Israel are seen, heard of and have entered the heart of man, just read the O.T. and see for yourself what the prophets heard, saw and entered their hearts.

    When you read Israel and think in your heart « church », you are caught in a snare of the great deceiver who has blinded you for the truth of the Holy Scriptures.

    Then the promises themselves, I wont list them here, but show you the promises are for Israel (Jacob):

    Isa. 14:1 « For the LORD will have mercy on Jacob, and will yet choose Israel, and set them in their own land: and the strangers shall be joined with them, and they shall cleave to the house of Jacob »

    This is never fulfilled.

    Isa. 49:7 « Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee. »

    Never fulfilled. God will put them in their land:

    Eze. 28:28 « Thus saith the Lord GOD; When I shall have gathered the house of Israel from the people among whom they are scattered, and shall be sanctified in them in the sight of the heathen, then shall they dwell in their land that I have given to my servant Jacob ».

    You see here it is given to « my servant Jacob », thus, the whole of Israel.

    Amo. 9:15 « And I will plant them upon their (Israel see v. 14) land, and they shall no more be pulled up out of their land which I have given them, saith the LORD thy God ».

    Never fulfilled, after the Babylonian exile they were pulled up out of their land again by the Romans, so this is future for Israel. So you leave to Israel what is for Israel by the word of the Lord.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    First of all Israel is never in Scripture a combination of Jews (the whole of Israel) and gentiles. Provide me the Scripture I dare you.

    Never fulfilled, after the Babylonian exile they were pulled up out of their land again by the Romans, so this is future for Israel. So you leave to Israel what is for Israel by the word of the Lord. Aristarkos
    Saying that the Jewish people are all of Israel, is a gross error. They are just two of the 12 tribes. The Jewish State of Israel has usurped the name of Israel. The two Houses; Judah and Israel were separated after Solomon and have never yet re-joined.

    Where do you get the idea that I think God's promises to Israel are in heaven or spiritual? They all earthly and will literally take place here. Your error is in thinking they apply to the Jews.

    The true Israelites of God, are every faithful believer, ethnicity has nothing to do with it. You obviously have another Gospel.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Saying that the Jewish people are all of Israel, is a gross error. They are just two of the 12 tribes. The Jewish State of Israel has usurped the name of Israel. The two Houses; Judah and Israel were separated after Solomon and have never yet re-joined.

    Where do you get the idea that I think God's promises to Israel are in heaven or spiritual? They all earthly and will literally take place here. Your error is in thinking they apply to the Jews.

    The true Israelites of God, are every faithful believer, ethnicity has nothing to do with it. You obviously have another Gospel.
    You've just supplied your personal opinion, there's no Scripture in the above quoted that shows you right. So you think that only the 2 tribes (Benjamin and Judah) lived in the land while the Lord was on earth?

    Luk 2:36 « And there was one Anna, a prophetess, the daughter of Phanuel, of the tribe of Aser: she was of a great age, and had lived with an husband seven years from her virginity; »

    At the second coming of the Lord at Jerusalem:

    Mat. 24:30 « And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth (or land same word in Greek) mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory »

    Romans says something about this too:

    Rom. 9:27 « And Isaiah doth cry concerning Israel, 'If the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, the remnant shall be saved; »

    Rom. 11:5 « So then also in the present time a remnant (of Israel see previous verses) according to the choice of grace there hath been; »

    As long as you basically teach that you are Israel — after all you appropriate all the promises — you are teaching a false gospel my friend. You never responded to this:

    « Paul confirms this by the way in 1 Cor. 2:9 « But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him ». The promises made to Israel are seen, heard of and have entered the heart of man, just read the O.T. and see for yourself what the prophets heard, saw and entered their hearts. »

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Saying that the Jewish people are all of Israel, is a gross error. They are just two of the 12 tribes. The Jewish State of Israel has usurped the name of Israel. The two Houses; Judah and Israel were separated after Solomon and have never yet re-joined.

    Where do you get the idea that I think God's promises to Israel are in heaven or spiritual? They all earthly and will literally take place here. Your error is in thinking they apply to the Jews.

    The true Israelites of God, are every faithful believer, ethnicity has nothing to do with it. You obviously have another Gospel.
    There is no such term in the whole Bible as "True Israel". There is only "Israel". And it is impossible for Israel to be believers for scripture says directly and unambiguously:

    26 "And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
    27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
    28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
    29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
    30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
    31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
    32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all."
    (Romans 11:26-32)

    verse 26 says "ALL Israel" and makes it clear who they are - the descendants of JACOB. It also says that their "salvation" IS FUTURE to the writing of Romans. But in Ephesians 2:5-8 we, the Church ARE saved.
    verse 29 says "All Israel", which is Jacob, ARE ENEMIES, but still the "ELECT" and still "BELOVED"
    verse 30 says that we HAVE obtained mercy while "All Israel", that is, Jacob, are in UNBELIEF
    verse 31 confirms that at the time of the writing to the CHURCH (the Believers), that "THESE" (ALL Israel) have NOT believed
    verse 32 confirms that ALL of them (Israel) are "concluded to be in unbelief BY GOD. It further says that they WILL (future) receive mercy.

    Israel CANNOT be the same as the Church at Rome. These direct and unambiguous statements, and the grammar therein, forbids it.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Saying that the Jewish people are all of Israel, is a gross error. They are just two of the 12 tribes. The Jewish State of Israel has usurped the name of Israel. The two Houses; Judah and Israel were separated after Solomon and have never yet re-joined.

    Where do you get the idea that I think God's promises to Israel are in heaven or spiritual? They all earthly and will literally take place here. Your error is in thinking they apply to the Jews.

    The true Israelites of God, are every faithful believer, ethnicity has nothing to do with it. You obviously have another Gospel.
    Not really.

    Actually, even in the NT we see 4 of the 12 tribes.... Judah, Benjamin, Levi, and Asher. In 2 Chronicles, there are several instances where the faithful of all the northern tribes migrated south and joined with the southern tribes. Several instances of that. Archaeology has shown from discoveries of records of King Sargon of Assyria that only about 28,000+ of those of the northern tribes were relocated. When Ezra returned with his group from the Babylonian exile, he called them Jews 9 times and all Israel 40 times. When Nehemiah returned with his group, he called then Jews 11 times and all Israel 22 times.

    So the idea that 10 tribes were "lost" is a fallacy of human making. It does not align with scripture which should be the final authority.

    While those who believe and trust in the Messiah are indeed grafted into the tree of Israel, fed by the root of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and their faith, the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are still to earthly Israel. I am a believer. And I have not lost my sense for good business. The promises I have as a believer in Yeshua and placing my trust in Him are far superior to the promises Israel has. I feel no need to claim their promises like some believers do. What, are not the promises we obtain by placing our trust in Yeshua not good enough that we feel the need claim Israel's as well? To paraphrase Paul... how stupid!

    Romans 9:2-5 (NKJV,) that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    Notice the present tense of Paul's words. Not past tense. The promises pertain or still belong to physical Israel.

    People usually seem to confuse these physical promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob with some sort to salvation thing. The reason that the promises remain with Israel is because they were sworn to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob by God on His own Name. It is not because of physical Israel remaining faithful that they still have the promises, it is because YHVH's name is on the line. There is nothing Israel could do to forfeit those promises. YHVH may weed out those of Israel from time to time so that a faithful remnant remains, but YHVH never removes the promises to Israel that were made and sworn to by His Holy Name.

    That is one of the main reasons for the coming Great Tribulation.... to finally once and for all weed out those faithless of Israel and cause the remnant that remains to call out for Yeshua their Messiah as per Hosea 5:15-6:2 and Matthew 23:39.

    And it is the fact of that which is the insurance policy we as believers have that YHVH will remain faithful and true to us. Israel is the believer's insurance policy.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

  12. #12
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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    You've just supplied your personal opinion, there's no Scripture in the above quoted that shows you right. So you think that only the 2 tribes (Benjamin and Judah) lived in the land while the Lord was on earth? Aristarkos
    Judah was joined by quite a number from the Northern tribes, when Assyria attacked them in circa 740-720 BC. But the majority of them were taken to Northern Assyria; the Caucasus region. The Bible prophets carefully maintain the separation, over 160 times, right until the NT and the House of Judah and the House of Israel, remain separate today. Even secular historians know this.

    Do I appropriate the promises? NO they are given to us Christians; the Lord's faithful people, His Overcomers, literally the Israelites of God.
    I don't see why any Christian should object to being called an Israelite of God.

    Ephesians 1:11-14 In Christ, indeed, we have been given the heritage, as was decreed in God’s purpose. For it was His will that we who set our hopes in Jesus, should be the ones to make His glory known and praised.
    We Christians have the Seal of the Holy Spirit, which is the pledge of the inheritance that will be ours when God has cleared and cleansed His possession. Deuteronomy 32:34-43

    Romans 8:16-18 For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God…..it is the Spirit of adoption, so we can call Him ‘Father’. This affirms that we are God’s children and if children, then heirs, heirs of God’s promises through Christ.
    But we must share His suffering, if we are also to share His glory.


    Ephesians 3:6 Through the Gospel, Gentiles are joint heirs with the Jews, part of the same body, sharers together in the promises of God through Jesus.

    Galatians 3:29 So if you belong to Christ, then you are the issue of Abraham and heirs of God’s promises. [to the Patriarchs]

    Colossians 1:12 We give thanks to the Father who has made us fit to share in the heritage of God’s people in the Kingdom of light.

    It is quite evident that the vast multitude seen in Jerusalem, Revelation 7:9, soon after the Sixth Seal event that will clear all of the holy Land, is far more that the remnant of the Jewish people. Romans 9:27
    Many prophesies make it plain that in the end times there will be a people in God’s holy Land, who will be His people, those who seek the Lord and who know what is right. Isaiah 51:1 Every faithful Christian person.

    Why do people have to promote the Jews, just a few million people, who are only .05% Christians; as being all Israel? Their eventual redemption as a nation? Something that is contradicted many times in prophecy. Luke 19:27, Isaiah 22:13, Ezekiel 21:1-7
    The reason is obvious: they believe in a false teaching; the 'rapture to heaven', where they must have the Jews in the Land; facing tribulation, while they sit strumming harps in heaven. An incredible fairy tale, that is totally unbiblical and cannot happen.

    The Deliverer HAS come out of Zion; Jesus HAS turned away ungodliness from those of Jacob who have accepted Him. The few Jews and the majority of the House of Israel, still scattered among the nations. God knows who they all are. Amos 9:9

    And so all Israel will be saved
    ; all those who prove their faith in God as Abraham and Jacob did. Galatians 3:24-26 The example for this is the Israelites in the desert during the Exodus. They all died there because of their lack of faith in God. Those without this faith, will again die in the desert: Ezekiel 20:34-38

  13. #13
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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff View Post
    I feel no need to claim their promises like some believers do. What, are not the promises we obtain by placing our trust in Yeshua not good enough that we feel the need claim Israel's as well? To paraphrase Paul... how stupid!

    Romans 9:2-5 (NKJV,) that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    Notice the present tense of Paul's words. Not past tense. The promises pertain or still belong to physical Israel.
    We Christians are given the promises. Ethnicity has no sway in the matter. Ephesians 2:11-18

    Is your quote from Romans 9:2-5 a contradiction? No, because we Christians, from every race, nation and language are the descendants of Abraham by faith, AND by actual descent, because after the 100+ generations since the Patriarchs; everyone on earth has some of their genes.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    A study of the first two chapters of Hosea shows us they are specific to the House of Israel, who was to be cast off and divorced from God. Judah is not a part of this prophecy, as proved by Hosea 1:7.
    Israel were to be scattered (“Jezreel”); they were to have no mercy (“Lo-ruhamah”); and they were to be no longer God’s people (“Lo-ammi”). But at the same time, God promised that they would be regathered under one Head (Jesus Christ) and come out of exile. In fact, God told them He would- betroth thee unto Me in righteousness. Hosea 2:19 The prophecy culminates with a Hebrew play on words. The name “Jezreel” means “God scatters,” but it also means “God sows.” (One must scatter the seed in order to sow it in a field.)
    Therefore; initially, the prophesies say that Israel was to be scattered; but ultimately it shows God’s Purpose; to sow Israel in the earth in order to multiply them as the sand of the sea, so as God remains faithful to His promise to Abraham.

    Hosea 2:23 And I will sow her unto Me in the earth; and I will have mercy upon her that had not obtained mercy; and I will say to them which were not My people, Thou art My people; and they shall say, Thou art My God.
    In other words, even though God did indeed cast off His people of Israel, scattering them among the nations by the hand of the Assyrians, God’s ultimate Purpose was to sow them in the earth, so that they would multiply and fulfill the promise to Abraham. Furthermore, Hosea prophesied that; in the very place (of their captivity) where it is said that they are not God’s people (Israel), they would be [Christians] known as; “the Sons of the living God." Hosea 1:10, Romans 9:24-26

    The problem is that most Christians try to make the Jews fulfill these prophesies, when the House of Judah, is fact, fulfilling an entirely different set of prophecies. God in His great mercy has allowed them nearly 2000 years to change their hearts to Him and to accept Jesus as Messiah. But the Bible plainly states that only a remnant will do so and survive. Isaiah 6:13, Romans 9:27
    People should realize that the Jews are to fulfill the prophecies of the House of Judah, not those dealing with the hidden House of Israel. The Jews were certainly “cast off” in 586 BC and again in 70-135 A.D., even as Israel was cast off during 745-712 B.C.—but the difference is that the prophets consistently prophesy good things for lost Israel even during the time of their captivity; while punishments and persecutions were pronounced upon Jerusalem and the Jewish people.
    Note that Ezekiel 21:14 tells of 3 Judgements of Judah. The next one, to come; will be by the Hand of the Lord Himself. Ezekiel 21:1-7

    In Jeremiah 18:1-10, God says that the House of Israel was marred in the Potter’s hand, so God was going to beat down the wet clay and remake it into a vessel fit for His use. Then beginning in verse 11, God begins to prophesy about Jerusalem and Judah. First comes an indictment for their sins, and then in Jeremiah 19:1-15 we see that Jeremiah was to take an old earthen vessel (as opposed to wet clay that was pliable), he was to go to the city dump and smash the earthen vessel there, saying: Even so will I break this people and this city, as one breaks a potter’s vessel, that cannot be made whole again, and they shall bury them in Tophet, till there be no place left to bury. Thus will I do unto this place, says the Lord, and to the inhabitants thereof, and even make this city as Tophet.

    God’s choice of an allegory to suit each House is amazing!
    An old clay vessel, once broken, cannot be remade into another vessel. Only wet, pliable clay can be used to remake a vessel. The House of Israel is like the pliable clay; but the House of Judah will be smashed, never again to be made into a vessel of honour.

    At the end of the first Temple era, God departed from it and Ezekiel saw the glory depart. Ezekiel 10:4-19 It has never returned to the Temple. Even when Zerubbabel rebuilt the Temple in 515 B.C., the Shekinah glory did not return to it when they dedicated it to God. The work was good and was allowed by God, but the site and the nation was under a curse.
    This is consistent with the New Testament prophecies regarding the cursed fig tree, Matt. 21:21 the parable of the vineyard, Matt. 21:43-44 and the parable of the citizens who hated Him and would not allow Him to reign over them. Luke 19:27

    The point is, these peoples must still be around to fulfill these distinct prophecies for Israel and for the cursed fig tree. The lost House of Israel must exist to be remade into another vessel and Judah must exist to be virtually wiped out. Isaiah 22:14 The problem comes when people think that the smashed vessel is going to be rebuilt into a vessel fit for God’s use, and when those same people think that the original House of Israel is lost forever.

    Ref: logostelos.info

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    We Christians are given the promises. Ethnicity has no sway in the matter. Ephesians 2:11-18

    Is your quote from Romans 9:2-5 a contradiction? No, because we Christians, from every race, nation and language are the descendants of Abraham by faith, AND by actual descent, because after the 100+ generations since the Patriarchs; everyone on earth has some of their genes.
    We are not in possession of the specific promises given to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob and sworn to by God. For one, you will not find one reference of the land territory that was promised to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob as now promised to believers in general. It is still in the purview of the Hebrew people.

    No, we are not descendants of Abraham by being believers (except Jewish believers). We are grafted into the tree as wild olive branches, fed by the root of faith of Abraham.

    Paul made it very clear Romans 9 that he was talking about physical Hebrews, the people he was from. There is no way that believers can even remotely fit the context of what Paul was saying.....

    Romans 9:1-5 (NKJV) I tell the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Spirit, 2 that I have great sorrow and continual grief in my heart. 3 For I could wish that I myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my countrymen according to the flesh, 4 who are Israelites, to whom pertain the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the service of God, and the promises; 5 of whom are the fathers and from whom, according to the flesh, Christ came, who is over all, the eternally blessed God. Amen.

    If believers are now Israelites, then why is Paul wishing himself to be accursed over us? Paul's burning desire is that his brethren in the flesh would come to acknowledge Yeshua as their Messiah. Being a Pharisee, Rabbi, trained under one of the most venerated sages of Jewish antiquity (Gamliel) and of the Tribe of Benjamin, it makes sense that he would have a deep desire to see his brethren come to faith. But he also acknowledges that it is those physical brethren of his that the gifts and promises were made, and those promises are perpetual and cannot be revoked. Paul is telling us here that he is talking about physical Israel, not the believers.

    Romans 11:25-29 (TLV) For I do not want you, brothers and sisters, to be ignorant of this mystery—lest you be wise in your own eyes—that a partial hardening has come upon Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26 and in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written,
    "The Deliverer shall come out of Zion.
    He shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
    27 And this is My covenant with them,
    when I take away their sins."
    28 Concerning the Good News, they are hostile for your sake; but concerning chosenness, they are loved on account of the fathers— 29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

    "they" is not "us". Basic grammar rules. The gifts and calling upon physical Israel still belongs to physical Israel. And will until the sun no longer shines, the moon never reflects the light of the Sun, and the waves no longer roar on the seashore. God Himself stated that. Physical Israel would always be a specific national identity in His eyes as long as those are still in existence.

    Israel as a national identity still has a calling that is not for believers. Messiah will not return until physical, national Israel acknowledges Him and calls for His return. Hosea outlined this quite clearly and Yeshua emphasized what Hosea said, later in the book of Matthew. No if's, and's, or but's about it. It is totally outside of what believers might think about these things or who they think they are. Physical Israel still is unique identity set apart for God's purpose. And as it pertains to the prophecy of Hosea and Yeshua, believers have no claim on that calling of Israel.

    Hosea 5:15 - 6:2 (TLV) I will go and return to My place
    until they admit their guilt.

    Then they will seek My face.
    In their distress they will seek Me earnestly:
    Prayer of Teshuvah
    1 Come, let us return to Adonai.
    For He has torn, but He will heal us.
    He has smitten, but He will bind us up.
    2 After two days He will revive us.
    On the third day He will raise us up,
    and we will live in His presence.

    Matthew 23:37-39 (TLV) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing! 38 Look, your house is left to you desolate! 39 For I tell you, you will never see Me again until you say, ‘Baruch ha-ba b'shem Adonai. Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

    Believers can make all the claims they want, but these passages show that God still considers physical Israel a unique identity set apart for His purpose and Messiah is not going to return until they acknowledge Him and call for His return. And when they do, then God will complete the promises made to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Believers are clearly not what is in view in these passages and have no claim on the gifts and calling of physical Israel.

    The facts are these.... Israel was the main focus of Yeshua's first coming, and the same physical Israel will be the focus of His second coming.
    Israel.... the Believer's insurance policy!

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