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Thread: Who are the true Israelites

  1. #76
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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    "Stole"? Who did they steal it from?
    I could be wrong of course but isn't it the other way around? Didn't the gentiles stole the name of Israel by saying God's promises are now for the gentiles?

    Num 23:19 « GOD is not a man, that He should lie; Neither the son of man, that He should repent: Hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good? ».

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will answer you, not in the hope of any acceptance, but for the other interested reader.

    Let the reader decide, but let the reader also know one thing. Our Lord Jesus dies for the sin and sins OF THE WORLD. THAT INCLUDES ISRAEL. Any man who says that the efficacy of Jesus is not good enough for Israel is close to blasphemy.
    Typically, your reply, Walls, jumps to wrong conclusions and finishes with a personal accusation, that isn't my belief at all.
    I have been to Israel and have worshipped with Israeli Christians. At the Kingdom Ministries on Jaffa Road and at the Christs Church in the City. [Right; Fenris, Christians are allowed to worship Jesus, but if they proselytize, they can be arrested and jailed.]

    Judah HAS been restored to the holy Land. God in His mercy has given them their last chance to accept Jesus as Messiah. And thankfully, a few have done so. They are the Remnant that Paul refers to in Romans 9:27 All the rest will die on the terrible Day of the Lord's wrath. Luke 19:27

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by kyCyd View Post
    Since you believe the church is Israel...then you must think the church will be judged by the apostles right?
    Here is a Prophetic Word for you...

    Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

    Jesus didn't know the difference between Israel and the church when He said this? Maybe Jesus didn't know there would be a church to you? Personally I think Jesus knew He said He came to save the world and He knows the difference between the two, it is you that can't seem to grasp it.
    Jesus came to save the world and that includes the 12 tribes, His Israelite people made up into 12 divisions. As Revelation 7:1-9 shows. The vast multitude of faithful Christians seen by John in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared all the holy Land; will gather there, Jesus will be revealed to them, 2 Thess 1:10, and He will select the 144,000 from them. Proved by Isaiah 66:21 and Revelation 5:10

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Aristarkos View Post
    I could be wrong of course but isn't it the other way around? Didn't the gentiles stole the name of Israel by saying God's promises are now for the gentiles?

    Num 23:19 « GOD is not a man, that He should lie; Neither the son of man, that He should repent: Hath He said, and shall He not do it? Or hath He spoken, and shall He not make it good? ».

    Aristarkos
    Gold star. Tried to rep you but couldn't.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Right; Fenris, Christians are allowed to worship Jesus, but if they proselytize, they can be arrested and jailed.
    Isn't lying a sin?

    Of course Christians may proselytize in Israel. It's illegal to offer money for a person to convert. And let's face it, if you're paying someone to convert, I wouldn't consider that a real conversion anyway.

    And of course, you completely ignore the fact that proselytizing in Arab countries gets you the death penalty. Either from the court, or your local lynch mob. But whatever, right,? Because no Jews.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Jews don't defy or reject God. We actually pray to Him three times a day....

    And as I've said, you interpretation trivializes 7:9. As if God was saying He only applies the verse to people who deserve it. But then what's the point? People who are good deserve God's blessings anyway. No, the point is that God loves the Jews, not because we are good, but because He loves the patriarchs and keeps His promises. Which it actually says elsewhere in the chapter.


    The Lord your God has chosen you out of all the peoples on the face of the earth to be his people, his treasured possession.
    The Lord did not set his affection on you and choose you because you were more numerous than other peoples, for you were the fewest of all peoples. But it was because the Lord loved you and kept the oath he swore to your ancestors that he brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the land of slavery, from the power of Pharaoh king of Egypt. Know therefore that the Lord your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments



    Such strong language. Jews don't "defy" Jesus. We simply don't believe that he was the messiah.

    Wrong country, bub. Israel is the only middle eastern country with a growing Christian population. As opposed to all the others, where Christians are persecuted and murdered. But you don't really care when other countries do that, because no Jews are involved.



    God's promises are unconditional, in case you haven't noticed.


    Again with this nonsense? Isaiah 22 already happened, long ago. Why does the thought of Jews being murdered en masse excite you so? You should hook up with Hamas, Hezbullah, and the Iranian Mullahs. You can can have a big "God is gonna smite the Jews" party. You can hold it on April 20, I understand that's a good day for such things.
    Christians believe that Jesus is God and so should you. Psalms 110:1-3, John 10:30 I and the Father are One.

    God does NOT love those who hate and reject His Son Jesus. The parable of the landowner, Matthew 21:33-43 and of the King whose invited guests failed to come, Matthew 22:1-14, make this clear.

    Isaiah 21 and 22:1-14 are both unfulfilled prophesies. They specifically mention Elam and Media as the attackers; modern day Iran and we can see this attack as imminent now.

    The Lord will do what He has said He will, maybe it will be April 20, we don't know when, but we do know it will happen:
    Zephaniah 1:4-6 Judah will be judged and those who have neither sought the Lord, nor enquired of Him, will be wiped out.
    Obadiah 12-16 The Day of the Lord is at hand for all the nations....you too will drink the cup of wrath that My people, Judah, must drink on My Holy mountain.
    Ezekiel 21:4 I intend to do away with both righteous and wicked alike. My sword is drawn against everyone from the Negev northward.
    Hosea 8:14 And for you, Judah, a harvest of reckoning will come.
    Ezekiel 21:10-14 My sword is sharpened to kill, even the scepter of My Royal Son. Testing will surely come and what if the scepter of Judah, which the sword despises, does not continue? Swing the sword three times, the great sword of slaughter. [1st time – 585BC, 2nd time 69/70AD, 3rd time- to come]
    Isaiah 9:18-19 Wicked men have been set ablaze. The Land is scorched and the people are food for the fire.
    Jeremiah 13:19 The towns in the Negev are besieged, no one can relieve them. Judah has been swept clean away.
    Jeremiah 21:11-14 To the Royal House of Judah....I shall punish you as you deserve. I shall set fire to your scrubland, it will consume everything around about.
    Jeremiah 8:5-12 Judah has no remorse or repentance, they say; All is well- no nothing is well. They will all fall on the Day of reckoning. You will be as dung spread on the ground. This wicked race would rather die than live.
    Zechariah 13:8-9 It will happen throughout the Land, that 2/3 of the people will die. The 1/3 left will pass through the refining fire. The few remaining will call on Me and I will answer them....
    Isaiah 4:3-4 The remnant of Judah will be called holy when the Lord cleanses Zion by a Spirit of judgement burning like fire.

    Luke 19:27 As for those enemies of Mine, who did not want Me for their King, bring them here and slaughter them

    Matthew 21:41-42 The King will bring those criminals to justice and destroy them. Therefore the Kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will bear fruit.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    Apparently some here believe that unconditional promises from God are conditional.
    God's promises were always conditional. Firstly it was the physical mark of circumcision.

    Now is it true faith in God and the Salvation of Jesus, that qualifies a person as a an Israelite and a participant in the Promises. Read carefully Romans 4:13-25

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Christians believe that Jesus is God and so should you.
    Thanks for the tip. I'll pass for now.

    God does NOT love those who hate and reject His Son Jesus.
    I don't "hate" anybody, least of all a Jewish guy who lived 2000 years ago and who didn't do anything to me personally. And God promised to love the descendants of those who, like Abraham, loved Him and followed His commands. So now either God lied, or you're incorrect. I'm going with you're incorrect.

    Isaiah 21 and 22:1-14 are both unfulfilled prophesies. They specifically mention Elam and Media as the attackers; modern day Iran and we can see this attack as imminent now.
    You getting excited at the thought of lots of Jews dying? Yes, of course you are.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Gold star. Tried to rep you but couldn't.
    You already did once, so I ow you one anyway.

    Aristarkos

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    God's promises were always conditional.
    Know therefore that the LORD your God is God; he is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commandments.

    The "condition" was Abraham loving God and keeping His commandments. And that was met almost 4000 years ago.
    "For a small moment have I forsaken you, and with great mercy will I gather you.With a little wrath did I hide My countenance for a moment from you, and with everlasting kindness will I have compassion on you," said your Redeemer, the Lord."..."For the mountains shall depart and the hills totter, but My kindness shall not depart from you, neither shall the covenant of My peace totter," says the Lord, Who has compassion on you.

    Isaiah 54

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    "Stole"? Who did they steal it from?

    Yes, there was the political entity knows as "Israel" which consisted of the ten northern tribes. But all of the descendants of Jacob/Israel are also called the "Children of Israel". If you read the book of Exodus, the term appears dozens of times in that book alone. (Sometimes translated as "Israelites" although the Hebrew reads as בְּנֵ֣י יִשְׂרָאֵ֔ל "Children of Israel".) It's obviously not referring to the ten tribes but the entire people.


    More specifically, and especially because this is "end times chat", Ezekiel 37 refers to the entirety of the people as the "children of Israel". Verse 21: Thus saith the Lord GOD: Behold, I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, whither they are gone, and will gather them on every side, and bring them into their own land; and I will make them one nation in the land, upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be king to them all; and they shall be no more two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms any more at all;


    So God is clearly and explicitly saying that "Israel" and "Judah" are all the "children of Israel" and will also become "one nation", as we see today.
    Yes, when God does it: it will be done right. The nation should call itself Judah, as it was when It was there last. God has changed nothing yet, and it just confuses the people making them think Israel is back. That is not the case. God knows where they are, and He always separated Judah from Israel in prophecy.

    In case you are wondering if I have any ulterior motives for stating this, I am from the tribe of Judah.
    John 15:17 "These things I command you, that ye love one another."

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Isn't lying a sin?

    Of course Christians may proselytize in Israel. It's illegal to offer money for a person to convert. And let's face it, if you're paying someone to convert, I wouldn't consider that a real conversion anyway.

    And of course, you completely ignore the fact that proselytizing in Arab countries gets you the death penalty. Either from the court, or your local lynch mob. But whatever, right,? Because no Jews.
    I’ll bear witness to that. My wife’s old congregation in NC is lead by a Messianic Jew (a real Jew) who preaches Yeshua as Messiah in Israel along with his three sons.

    Keraz’ statement is absolutely false.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    God's promises were always conditional. Firstly it was the physical mark of circumcision.

    Now is it true faith in God and the Salvation of Jesus, that qualifies a person as a an Israelite and a participant in the Promises. Read carefully Romans 4:13-25
    It was God who walked between the animals split in two, not Abraham. I hope you understand the meaning of that.

    Or you can preach salvation by works. Which is it?
    Those who seek God with all their heart will find Him and be given sight. Those who seek their own agenda will remain blind.

  13. #88

    Unhappy Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    You really have to pay proper attention to context.
    Yes I do. I was quoting John, not Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    Let's quote the whole passage, and not half of a verse like you are doing.

    But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to where he was baptizing, he said to them: “You brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the coming wrath? Produce fruit in keeping with repentance. And do not think you can say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham as our father.’ I tell you that out of these stones God can raise up children for Abraham. The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire.

    What's he saying here? That God expects repentance.
    My friend, God expects this from all sinners.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    That God expects us to live a life as He deems fit.
    The life he expects any person to live is impossible without mercy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And if that is ignored, surely the destruction will come.
    And the destruction being described is final.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    And nobody should think, well, we are descended from Abraham and therefore God won't punish us. In fact, quite the opposite is true.
    That's right. Judgment applies to all sinners, irrespective of lineage.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    See Amos 3:2 "You only have I chosen of all the families of the earth; therefore I will punish you for all your sins." God is saying, because you are descended from Abraham, I expect more from you.
    "I have chosen you....so I will punish you for your sins" doesn't mean, "I expect more only from Jews", because God punishes non Jews also (see Amos 1 & 2.) Amos is saying God chose Israel to make God known to the world.

    Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets...Publish in the palaces at Ashdod, and in the palaces in the land of Egypt...For they know not to do right, saith the LORD... Amos 3:7,9-10

    Quote Originally Posted by Fenris View Post
    But what he isn't saying here is that "You're no longer Abraham's descendants".
    He's warning them against it. The law teaches us to show mercy, because the law shows us we are in desperate need of mercy ourselves and anyone who claims otherwise deceiving himself.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by keck553 View Post
    I’ll bear witness to that. My wife’s old congregation in NC is lead by a Messianic Jew (a real Jew) who preaches Yeshua as Messiah in Israel along with his three sons.

    Keraz’ statement is absolutely false.



    It was God who walked between the animals split in two, not Abraham. I hope you understand the meaning of that.

    Or you can preach salvation by works. Which is it?
    Too hard for you to read Romans 4:13-25, is it? How does scripture like Romans 4:16 fit your idea of Jews the only Promise receivers:
    God's Promise was made on the grounds of faith, in order that it would be a matter of grace and that it would be valid for all of Abrahams descendants, not just for those who qualify by the Law, but for all who have the faith of Abraham.

    Romans 4:23-25 The word's 'counted to him as righteousness', apply not only to Abraham, but also to Christians. Our faith in the God who Raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, for He was given up to death for our sins and raised to life for our justification.

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    Re: Who are the true Israelites

    Quote Originally Posted by Keraz View Post
    Too hard for you to read Romans 4:13-25, is it? How does scripture like Romans 4:16 fit your idea of Jews the only Promise receivers:
    God's Promise was made on the grounds of faith, in order that it would be a matter of grace and that it would be valid for all of Abrahams descendants, not just for those who qualify by the Law, but for all who have the faith of Abraham.

    Romans 4:23-25 The word's 'counted to him as righteousness', apply not only to Abraham, but also to Christians. Our faith in the God who Raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, for He was given up to death for our sins and raised to life for our justification.
    Yeah, it must be too hard for me.

    That must be it.

    And I didn’t say anything about promises ‘to the Jews only.’ Maybe you could just speak for yourself from now on.

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