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Thread: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

  1. #1
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    Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Most big picture views of Revelation, Imho, do not place enough emphasis on the restoration of Israel. But let me give you, what i think are two parallel passages that should cause one to rethink their overall scheme of things. The parallels are uncanny.

    Verse list:
    Exo 23:20-33 KJVBehold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

    Now for the "flying scorpions":

    Rev 9:1-11 KJVAnd the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    The seals, trumpets and vials seem to be presented as the first 4, then 2, then the last one with directional contrast to the previous. Here we see a similar purpose to the first 4 trumpets with the last three:

    *[[Zec 1:18]] KJV* Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
    *[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

    Can you see how they have a common purpose? It is to prepare the land [of Israel] for their time to inhabit the land?

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    Most big picture views of Revelation, Imho, do not place enough emphasis on the restoration of Israel. But let me give you, what i think are two parallel passages that should cause one to rethink their overall scheme of things. The parallels are uncanny.

    Verse list:
    Exo 23:20-33 KJVBehold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared. Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for my name is in him. But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries. For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off. Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images. And ye shall serve the LORD your God, and he shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee. There shall nothing cast their young, nor be barren, in thy land: the number of thy days I will fulfil. I will send my fear before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come, and I will make all thine enemies turn their backs unto thee. And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee. By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land. And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee. Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. They shall not dwell in thy land, lest they make thee sin against me: for if thou serve their gods, it will surely be a snare unto thee.

    Now for the "flying scorpions":

    Rev 9:1-11 KJVAnd the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit. And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit. And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads. And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man. And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them. And the shapes of the locusts were like unto horses prepared unto battle; and on their heads were as it were crowns like gold, and their faces were as the faces of men. And they had hair as the hair of women, and their teeth were as the teeth of lions. And they had breastplates, as it were breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was as the sound of chariots of many horses running to battle. And they had tails like unto scorpions, and there were stings in their tails: and their power was to hurt men five months. And they had a king over them, which is the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue is Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath his name Apollyon.

    The seals, trumpets and vials seem to be presented as the first 4, then 2, then the last one with directional contrast to the previous. Here we see a similar purpose to the first 4 trumpets with the last three:

    *[[Zec 1:18]] KJV* Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and behold four horns.
    *[[Zec 1:19]] KJV* And I said unto the angel that talked with me, What be these? And he answered me, These are the horns which have scattered Judah, Israel, and Jerusalem.

    Can you see how they have a common purpose? It is to prepare the land [of Israel] for their time to inhabit the land?

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Throughout History, as an example of Christ's future actions, conquest usually works like this:

    The King invades with His armies and sets up his Kingdom in the Land. Them He reigns with a rod of Iron, slowly subduing any nations around him that do not bow their necks to him.

    When Jesus returns on that White Horse, He will be the LION of the tribe of Judah. He will not be coming as a peaceful Lamb. The Sword of His mouth will kill many hundreds of millions of people. This is the ultimate cleansing of the Land of Israel. What you are proposing is a precursor to this. Yes I agree with you on this. Before Christ comes, the hornets will do their part on driving people out of the nation.

    I believe the first four trumpets are the WRATH OF THE LAMB being poured out upon the people of Earth.

    "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour... And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

    The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise."


    After the people of earth realize Jesus the Lamb is about to pour out His wrath, the Angels who are sealing the 144,000 pause the Wrath of the Lamb and say "WAIT until were done before pouring out that wrath on the earth, vegetation, and Seas!" Then the Lamb begins His destruction of the earth, Land (fresh waters & Trees), Seas, and even the Sky (Darkness and Sun and moon and starts).

    So in essence, the next trumpet judgments (5th and 6th) are a continuation of that. However the shift in the last two after the 4 is a shift of using DEMONIC beings (Sinful Angels) to do the will of God, whereas the 1st four are Angelic actions for Wrath of the Lamb.

  3. #3
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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Throughout History, as an example of Christ's future actions, conquest usually works like this:

    The King invades with His armies and sets up his Kingdom in the Land. Them He reigns with a rod of Iron, slowly subduing any nations around him that do not bow their necks to him.

    When Jesus returns on that White Horse, He will be the LION of the tribe of Judah. He will not be coming as a peaceful Lamb. The Sword of His mouth will kill many hundreds of millions of people. This is the ultimate cleansing of the Land of Israel. What you are proposing is a precursor to this. Yes I agree with you on this. Before Christ comes, the hornets will do their part on driving people out of the nation.

    I believe the first four trumpets are the WRATH OF THE LAMB being poured out upon the people of Earth.

    "And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree. And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea, Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

    And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour... And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

    The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up. And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood; And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters; And the fourth angel sounded, and the third part of the sun was smitten, and the third part of the moon, and the third part of the stars; so as the third part of them was darkened, and the day shone not for a third part of it, and the night likewise."


    After the people of earth realize Jesus the Lamb is about to pour out His wrath, the Angels who are sealing the 144,000 pause the Wrath of the Lamb and say "WAIT until were done before pouring out that wrath on the earth, vegetation, and Seas!" Then the Lamb begins His destruction of the earth, Land (fresh waters & Trees), Seas, and even the Sky (Darkness and Sun and moon and starts).

    So in essence, the next trumpet judgments (5th and 6th) are a continuation of that. However the shift in the last two after the 4 is a shift of using DEMONIC beings (Sinful Angels) to do the will of God, whereas the 1st four are Angelic actions for Wrath of the Lamb.
    One of the greatest blunders and barriers to understanding the sequence of endtime events is thinking that the kingdom of the beast includes anything of the land of Israel. The overall thrust of events that includes the seals and trumpets is to judge the children of Israel, scatter them into all of the 4 winds, along with ridding the land of the heathen who are the instruments of God's judgment. Here are a couple passages that shows that the seals are judgments upon Jerusalem:

    Verse list:
    Eze 14:12-23 KJVThe word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
    Eze 5:1-9 KJVAnd thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts. Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her. And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them. ....
    Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.
    Eze 5:12 KJVA third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
    Eze 5:14-15 KJVMoreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. *[[Eze 5:15]] KJV* So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it...
    *[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

    One of the forgotten facets of blowing a trumpet is to put fear in the heart of the enemy. The underlying purpose of the first 4 trumpets is to put fear into the enemy. Those who don't get the message and don't leave will be driven out or killed with the 5th and 6th trumpets. And then with the 7yh we see the resurrecting of the saints and prophets of Israel. Notice the recurring phrase in the Eze 14 passage: "to drive out man and beast".
    The same sentiment is expressed in Isaiah 6.

    *[[Isa 6:11]] KJV* Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
    *[[Isa 6:12]] KJV* And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  4. #4
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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    One of the greatest blunders and barriers to understanding the sequence of endtime events is thinking that the kingdom of the beast includes anything of the land of Israel. The overall thrust of events that includes the seals and trumpets is to judge the children of Israel, scatter them into all of the 4 winds, along with ridding the land of the heathen who are the instruments of God's judgment. Here are a couple passages that shows that the seals are judgments upon Jerusalem:

    Verse list:
    Eze 14:12-23 KJVThe word of the LORD came again to me, saying, Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate. Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves. Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast: Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness. For thus saith the Lord GOD; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast? Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord GOD.
    Eze 5:1-9 KJVAnd thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's razor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weigh, and divide the hair. Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them. Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts. Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel. Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem: I have set it in the midst of the nations and countries that are round about her. And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them. ....
    Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations. And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.
    Eze 5:12 KJVA third part of thee shall die with the pestilence, and with famine shall they be consumed in the midst of thee: and a third part shall fall by the sword round about thee; and I will scatter a third part into all the winds, and I will draw out a sword after them.
    Eze 5:14-15 KJVMoreover I will make thee waste, and a reproach among the nations that are round about thee, in the sight of all that pass by. *[[Eze 5:15]] KJV* So it shall be a reproach and a taunt, an instruction and an astonishment unto the nations that are round about thee, when I shall execute judgments in thee in anger and in fury and in furious rebukes. I the LORD have spoken it...
    *[[Eze 5:17]] KJV* So will I send upon you famine and evil beasts, and they shall bereave thee; and pestilence and blood shall pass through thee; and I will bring the sword upon thee. I the LORD have spoken it.

    One of the forgotten facets of blowing a trumpet is to put fear in the heart of the enemy. The underlying purpose of the first 4 trumpets is to put fear into the enemy. Those who don't get the message and don't leave will be driven out or killed with the 5th and 6th trumpets. And then with the 7yh we see the resurrecting of the saints and prophets of Israel. Notice the recurring phrase in the Eze 14 passage: "to drive out man and beast".
    The same sentiment is expressed in Isaiah 6.

    *[[Isa 6:11]] KJV* Then said I, Lord, how long? And he answered, Until the cities be wasted without inhabitant, and the houses without man, and the land be utterly desolate,
    *[[Isa 6:12]] KJV* And the LORD have removed men far away, and there be a great forsaking in the midst of the land.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    I don't know if I understand where you are going here... If I read you correctly, you agree that the Beast will try to destroy the Children of Israel, but you don't think Israel as a nation has any part in His attacks? The way I understand the battle of Armageddon, and the time leading up to that, I see the Beast focusing a lot of anger towards Israel as a nation.

    Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

    Aren't these verses speaking of the time of the end? Armageddon time?

    Is Gog and Magog going to attack the un-walled villages of the land of Israel?

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I don't know if I understand where you are going here... If I read you correctly, you agree that the Beast will try to destroy the Children of Israel, but you don't think Israel as a nation has any part in His attacks? The way I understand the battle of Armageddon, and the time leading up to that, I see the Beast focusing a lot of anger towards Israel as a nation.

    Ezekiel 38:14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord God; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it? 15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army: 16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes. 17 Thus saith the Lord God; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them? 18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God, that my fury shall come up in my face.

    Aren't these verses speaking of the time of the end? Armageddon time?

    Is Gog and Magog going to attack the un-walled villages of the land of Israel?
    The war of Gog/ magog found in Eze 38 is the main thrust of the great tribulation.

    *[[Eze 5:9]] KJV* And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

    Very few people have noticed the words of this verse, primarily because of the way that it is worded. The passage in Eze 14 shows the 4 sore judgments on Jerusalem, equated to the first 4 seals. God, in his higher ways, will gather the children of Israel, numbering as the sand of the sea, delivering them unto judgment. The remnant of Jacob, will be those who turn from ungodliness, when the Deliverer comes to Zion, aka Jerusalem. Most people mistakenly apply Zech 14 to the battle of Armageddon. But verse 1 makes it clear that it is the Day of the Lord:

    *[[Zec 14:1]] KJV* Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    The part that throws everybody is the part about setting his feet on Olivet. This event is neither the raptor nor the 2nd advent but it is in fulfilment of:

    *[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    *[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

    *[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.*30* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

    When you start putting things together, you will start, you can see that Jerusalem shall be holy and nothing unclean shall be allowed to ENTER there.
    Sorry, if I don't say more. But i will let you try to grasp what I'm saying... what the scriptures are saying. It's not easy to see because we have convinced ourselves of "what the truth is".

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    The war of Gog/ magog found in Eze 38 is the main thrust of the great tribulation.

    *[[Eze 5:9]] KJV* And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

    Very few people have noticed the words of this verse, primarily because of the way that it is worded. The passage in Eze 14 shows the 4 sore judgments on Jerusalem, equated to the first 4 seals. God, in his higher ways, will gather the children of Israel, numbering as the sand of the sea, delivering them unto judgment. The remnant of Jacob, will be those who turn from ungodliness, when the Deliverer comes to Zion, aka Jerusalem. Most people mistakenly apply Zech 14 to the battle of Armageddon. But verse 1 makes it clear that it is the Day of the Lord:

    *[[Zec 14:1]] KJV* Behold, the DAY OF THE LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

    The part that throws everybody is the part about setting his feet on Olivet. This event is neither the raptor nor the 2nd advent but it is in fulfilment of:

    *[[Joe 2:11]] KJV* And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?

    *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    *[[Amo 1:2]] KJV* And he said, The LORD will roar from Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the habitations of the shepherds shall mourn, and the top of Carmel shall wither.

    *[[Jer 25:29]] KJV* For, lo, I begin to bring evil on the city which is called by my name, and should ye be utterly unpunished? Ye shall not be unpunished: for I will call for a sword upon all the inhabitants of the earth, saith the LORD of hosts.*30* Therefore prophesy thou against them all these words, and say unto them, The LORD shall roar from on high, and utter his voice from his holy habitation; he shall mightily roar upon his habitation; he shall give a shout, as they that tread the grapes, against all the inhabitants of the earth.

    When you start putting things together, you will start, you can see that Jerusalem shall be holy and nothing unclean shall be allowed to ENTER there.
    Sorry, if I don't say more. But i will let you try to grasp what I'm saying... what the scriptures are saying. It's not easy to see because we have convinced ourselves of "what the truth is".

    Blessings
    The PuP
    Ok, so I see that you believe ezek 38 is end times, but not during Armageddon.

    So then, what about Zech 14:2-5? It states: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    Then it explains Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives. So then Jesus is already here attacking in Armageddon when He saves Jerusalem. That means Ezikiel 38 is leading up to and during Armageddon.

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Ok, so I see that you believe ezek 38 is end times, but not during Armageddon.

    So then, what about Zech 14:2-5? It states: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    Then it explains Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives. So then Jesus is already here attacking in Armageddon when He saves Jerusalem. That means Ezikiel 38 is leading up to and during Armageddon.
    Thank you for your patient replies. I know you are trying to understand. The whole book of Zechariah is relevant to the time that this takes place. You have in Zechariah: the 7 lamps/ candlesticks in chapter 1; The measuring reed and God's protective wall of fire in ch. 2; the 2 witnesses and the 7 lamps, and building of the temple in ch. 4; the gathering of Israel and building of the temple in ch. 6. When Zech 14 speaks of "I SHALL gather all the nations to battle", many are already there. But he is speaking in the future tense, AT ARMAGEDDON. The purpose in the destruction of Jerusalem, and her subsequent rebuilding BY THE LORD and his saints, will serve to manifest the hatred for the holy things of God, that are hidden in men's hearts. I know it is difficult to grasp a different point of view of things. But i know you hold to a prewrath point of view. Let me use that to explain the big picture that is contained with Revelation that I am just beginning to see. Not a different understanding, but from a different perspective found there.

    In Rev 1 we find Jesus speaking to John WITH THE VOICE OF A TRUMPET:

    *[[Rev 1:10]] KJV* I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,*[[Rev 1:11]] KJV* Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

    We know from verse 11 on, that this is the voice of Jesus (speaking as a voice of a trumpet).

    Verse 19 is an important synopsis of the whole book. John is told to write about the things that he sees (in his vision) concerning two things. He is to put together in a book, the things that he saw: the things which are, AND the things which shall be "hereafter". The things which John saw he saw as all being part of a prophetic vision. [You will probably have to meditate on these things to get what I am saying]. Its not just the things "which shall be hereafter" that are prophetic, but the "things which ARE", these are also prophetic. [Re-read that]. The things "which are", as well as the things "which shall be hereafter", are both part of John's prophetic vision. The word "hereafter", does not mean "after a particular point in time". [You will see what I am saying shortly]. Look at this verse:

    *[[Rev 4:1]] KJV* After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    We have the trumpet voice of Jesus talking to him from an open door. What's his purpose? To show John things which:
    1. must TAKE PLACE "hereafter", OR,
    2. must BE "hereafter"?

    It's what must be HEREAFTER. Here it is.

    The "things which are" are the things which are temporal. The "things which hereafter", is that which shall be HEREAFTER, as in forever more. The kingdoms "which are" shall end, and the kingdom which is (forever) hereafter, shall come to be and never pass away. It will be hereafter, forever and ever. I think you are about to get what John is saying... what Jesus is showing to John... what shall be hereafter. Go back to:

    *[[Rev 4:1]] KJV* After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.

    Jesus is saying, Let me show you the transpiration of events that will take this world from the things which are [Prophetically speaking] to the things which shall be HEREAFTER. Now notice what John days on v.2. "I was immediately in the spirit..." Rev 4:1 is not an event within the order of events that John will witness, but the open door in heaven AND the trumpet speaking with him, IS the point in time in which the "hereafter" arrives. John will now recount the things that he sees "which are", that culminates in the time and events "which are hereafter". John will eventually give us a verse to signal "the things which are hereafter". What is that verse?......there are actually 3...

    *[[Rev 11:15]] KJV* And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.*[[Rev 11:16]] KJV* And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

    Did you see it? The "door in heaven" in Rev 4:1 is the temple of God in Rev 11:19. All of the events from 4:1 until 11:19 are a chronology of prophetic events culminating in the HEREAFTER!
    Then comes chapter 12, where John seems to back up in time. And he does. But only for the sake of the timing of the rapture, which is when the man child is CAUGHT UP to heaven. It is not the rapture that marks the end of the things "which are", but it odds the coming of the kingdom to this earth, that marks the beginning of the "things which are hereafter"... The kingdom of God on earth is the beginning b of time hereafter. Chapter 12 connects the timing of the rapture, to the events which shall take place in the hereafter. I l know this was long and involves a lot of new thinking, but i hope this helps you to see my point about how the 5th (and 6th) trumpets are in preparation for the kingdom that will be hereafter.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    *[[Rev 11:19]] KJV* And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    Ok, so I see that you believe ezek 38 is end times, but not during Armageddon.

    So then, what about Zech 14:2-5? It states: For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

    Then it explains Jesus will set foot on the Mount of Olives. So then Jesus is already here attacking in Armageddon when He saves Jerusalem. That means Ezikiel 38 is leading up to and during Armageddon.
    I don't know of my last post answered your question or not, but let me add this tidbit that will probably be a difficult pill to swallow. The scripture quotes that I gave you from Joel 2 & 3, Amos 1, and Jeremiah 25, have this point of commonality to Zechariah 14. The Lord himself shall utter his voice, literally shout from his holy habitation of terra firma earth at Jerusalem. This takes place BEFORE the rapture. A most grievous error that most people make is failing to recognize that this shout from Jerusalem is the shout of the Lord that heralds the rapture found in 1 Thess 4. Pretrib and post-trib theology, do not have room for that thought in their thinking. Only prewrath can reach that conclusion from taking the scriptures literally.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I don't know of my last post answered your question or not, but let me add this tidbit that will probably be a difficult pill to swallow. The scripture quotes that I gave you from Joel 2 & 3, Amos 1, and Jeremiah 25, have this point of commonality to Zechariah 14. The Lord himself shall utter his voice, literally shout from his holy habitation of terra firma earth at Jerusalem.
    OK, I can follow this 100%. Jesus will indeed shout from the earth and will indeed be at Jerusalem as well.

    This takes place BEFORE the rapture. A most grievous error that most people make is failing to recognize that this shout from Jerusalem is the shout of the Lord that heralds the rapture found in 1 Thess 4. Pretrib and post-trib theology, do not have room for that thought in their thinking. Only prewrath can reach that conclusion from taking the scriptures literally.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    hmmm.... Let me think out loud on this one...

    SO we are saying here that Jesus will shout from Jerusalem (or near it), and that will be the SHOUT mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16... So let me fact check this idea.

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Where is Jesus at the time of the shout? In the air? Um, let me check... Where else did I see Jesus descending from heaven with trumpet sounds and angels involved, and clouds?

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


    Nope... It doesn't hold water that Jesus will be in Jerusalem when He shouts... Jesus is in the air, and in heaven and on clouds... not in or near Jerusalem...

    Now I know without a doubt that Jesus will be on a cloud in great glory, with angels, and Jesus will shout, and the Arch Angel will voice things, and trumpets will sound, and it will be a spectacular sight that all will see. There is no Pre-Trib secret rapture... And it happens shortly after the Great Tribulation is cut short, so less than 3.5 years after the Great Tribulation starts, so there is no post trib rapture either.


    So here is the rub, bub... Jesus will come shortly after the Mid-point of the Tribulation Period (I don't like that term... 70th week works better), in the clouds, where He will descend from the HEAVEN (place of God the Father's Throne) that will be above earth and VISIBLE, and which will be seen arriving to the earth (probably like a giant nebula billowing towards earth...) with Jesus standing on the leading edge with thousands of His Saints (dead in Christ not in their new bodies.) The people of earth will run and hide in the mountains in terror as they KNOW it is Jesus coming to enact vengeance on those who have been killing millions of Christians and Jews in the Great tribulation slaughter, and they will cry out "SAVE US FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB!!!! Every Eye will see Him on the Clouds as He descends. Then there will be loud trumpet sounds, a shout and suddenly an huge amount of dead will appear and be changed into new bodies as the living are gathered by angels and join them in one place. Then they will all be taken up into the clouds with the Lord Jesus. They will appear in HEAVEN, before the Throne for God the Father and worship Him. The rest of the 3.5 years will unfold as we prepare for the wedding. Then we will return with Christ on white horses and will stop by Jerusalem and save the remnant from Jerusalem. Jesus will step onto the mount of olives and rent it in two. They will run out and be saved, and We will continue slaughtering the Evil that had come against Him. Then Jesus will use the sword of His mouth and create a lake of blood with the wine-press of His awesomeness, dissolving flesh with His amazing Power... Then we will live and reign with Him for 1000 years after He brings those that were still on earth after we left and came to know Him are resurrected in new bodies. Whew... But that about sums it up.

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    OK, I can follow this 100%. Jesus will indeed shout from the earth and will indeed be at Jerusalem as well.



    hmmm.... Let me think out loud on this one...

    SO we are saying here that Jesus will shout from Jerusalem (or near it), and that will be the SHOUT mentioned in 1 Thessalonians 4:16... So let me fact check this idea.

    1 Thess 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Where is Jesus at the time of the shout? In the air? Um, let me check... Where else did I see Jesus descending from heaven with trumpet sounds and angels involved, and clouds?

    Matt 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


    Nope... It doesn't hold water that Jesus will be in Jerusalem when He shouts... Jesus is in the air, and in heaven and on clouds... not in or near Jerusalem...

    Now I know without a doubt that Jesus will be on a cloud in great glory, with angels, and Jesus will shout, and the Arch Angel will voice things, and trumpets will sound, and it will be a spectacular sight that all will see. There is no Pre-Trib secret rapture... And it happens shortly after the Great Tribulation is cut short, so less than 3.5 years after the Great Tribulation starts, so there is no post trib rapture either.


    So here is the rub, bub... Jesus will come shortly after the Mid-point of the Tribulation Period (I don't like that term... 70th week works better), in the clouds, where He will descend from the HEAVEN (place of God the Father's Throne) that will be above earth and VISIBLE, and which will be seen arriving to the earth (probably like a giant nebula billowing towards earth...) with Jesus standing on the leading edge with thousands of His Saints (dead in Christ not in their new bodies.) The people of earth will run and hide in the mountains in terror as they KNOW it is Jesus coming to enact vengeance on those who have been killing millions of Christians and Jews in the Great tribulation slaughter, and they will cry out "SAVE US FROM THE WRATH OF THE LAMB!!!! Every Eye will see Him on the Clouds as He descends. Then there will be loud trumpet sounds, a shout and suddenly an huge amount of dead will appear and be changed into new bodies as the living are gathered by angels and join them in one place. Then they will all be taken up into the clouds with the Lord Jesus. They will appear in HEAVEN, before the Throne for God the Father and worship Him. The rest of the 3.5 years will unfold as we prepare for the wedding. Then we will return with Christ on white horses and will stop by Jerusalem and save the remnant from Jerusalem. Jesus will step onto the mount of olives and rent it in two. They will run out and be saved, and We will continue slaughtering the Evil that had come against Him. Then Jesus will use the sword of His mouth and create a lake of blood with the wine-press of His awesomeness, dissolving flesh with His amazing Power... Then we will live and reign with Him for 1000 years after He brings those that were still on earth after we left and came to know Him are resurrected in new bodies. Whew... But that about sums it up.
    I in understand the difficulty in altering ones beliefs. But you made two mistakes in your analysis.
    1. 1 Thess 4 does not support the simultaneous happening of the 3 precursors to the rapture: a. The descent and shout of the Lord; B.
    B. The voice of the archangel, and C. The trumpet of God. Our bodies will change in less time than the twinkling of an eye, but nothing is said to the individual timing of the precursors. It is just an I gained tradition. Johns recounting of these events in Rev 12, includes another sign/ precursor of the rapture. That is the sign in heaven... The travailing woman giving birth to the Son. The woman is not Israel because she is seen in heaven and never comes to earth. This is the sign of the Son of man in heaven. But then it says that her child IS caught up to the throne of God. The somewhere that he comes from is the earth. The church is of the body of Christ.
    2. HEB 12:26-27 says that only ONCE MORE will goods voice shake the heavens and the earth. That purpose is that we might receive the kingdom of God. That shaking of the heavens and earth is find in those verses of Joel 2,3;Amos 1; Jeremiah 25 and numerous other places.

    *[[Hag 2:21]] KJV* Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;*[[Hag 2:22]] KJV* And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

    That shaking is what removes the shakeable kingdom of Satan from heaven. There is no shaking, for none is needed, of the heavens at the time of Armageddon. Satan as you know, is kicked out long before that time.

    Blessings
    The PuP

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I in understand the difficulty in altering ones beliefs. But you made two mistakes in your analysis.
    1. 1 Thess 4 does not support the simultaneous happening of the 3 precursors to the rapture: a. The descent and shout of the Lord; B.
    B. The voice of the archangel, and C. The trumpet of God. Our bodies will change in less time than the twinkling of an eye, but nothing is said to the individual timing of the precursors. It is just an I gained tradition. Johns recounting of these events in Rev 12, includes another sign/ precursor of the rapture. That is the sign in heaven... The travailing woman giving birth to the Son. The woman is not Israel because she is seen in heaven and never comes to earth. This is the sign of the Son of man in heaven. But then it says that her child IS caught up to the throne of God. The somewhere that he comes from is the earth. The church is of the body of Christ.
    2. HEB 12:26-27 says that only ONCE MORE will goods voice shake the heavens and the earth. That purpose is that we might receive the kingdom of God. That shaking of the heavens and earth is find in those verses of Joel 2,3;Amos 1; Jeremiah 25 and numerous other places.

    *[[Hag 2:21]] KJV* Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth;*[[Hag 2:22]] KJV* And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother.

    That shaking is what removes the shakeable kingdom of Satan from heaven. There is no shaking, for none is needed, of the heavens at the time of Armageddon. Satan as you know, is kicked out long before that time.

    Blessings
    The PuP

    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Christ's coming
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead Raised from grave with Glorified body
    Living changed into Glorified body


    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Christ's coming (with dead in Christ)
    Descent (from heaven) onto Clouds (or descent on clouds)
    Lord's Shout
    Voice of Archangel
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead raised from the grave (first)
    Quickened Living and resurrected Dead caught up into the clouds, into the air with the Lord


    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Signs of His coming
    Christ's coming
    Christ on Clouds
    Angels
    Trumpet Sound
    Gathering of ALL ELECT throughout the heavens and the earth


    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


    Christ's coming
    Christ on Clouds


    2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    Christ's coming
    The Quickened Living along with the resurrected Dead are Judged by Jesus Himself at His coming


    OK, so here we have a scattering of instances where there is a COMING of the Lord... They all have parts that match each other and paint a bigger picture... Here it is:

    Signs of His coming {with the sign of the Son of Man}
    Christ's coming (with dead in Christ)
    Descent (from heaven) onto Clouds (or descent on clouds)
    Lord's Shout
    Voice of Archangel
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead raised from the grave (first)
    Angels Gathering of ALL ELECT throughout the heavens and the earth [to one place]
    The Quickened Living and resurrected Dead are Judged by Jesus Himself at His coming
    Quickened Living and resurrected Dead are caught up into the clouds TOGETHER, and into the air with the Lord


    Whether you like it or not, these parallel texts indicate that all these events happen very close to each other. There is certainly a sequence to it, but they can not be stretched apart by large amounts of time.

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post

    1 Cor 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming... 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    Christ's coming
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead Raised from grave with Glorified body
    Living changed into Glorified body


    1 Thess 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    Christ's coming (with dead in Christ)
    Descent (from heaven) onto Clouds (or descent on clouds)
    Lord's Shout
    Voice of Archangel
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead raised from the grave (first)
    Quickened Living and resurrected Dead caught up into the clouds, into the air with the Lord


    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Signs of His coming
    Christ's coming
    Christ on Clouds
    Angels
    Trumpet Sound
    Gathering of ALL ELECT throughout the heavens and the earth


    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


    Christ's coming
    Christ on Clouds


    2 Tim 4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

    Christ's coming
    The Quickened Living along with the resurrected Dead are Judged by Jesus Himself at His coming


    OK, so here we have a scattering of instances where there is a COMING of the Lord... They all have parts that match each other and paint a bigger picture... Here it is:

    Signs of His coming {with the sign of the Son of Man}
    Christ's coming (with dead in Christ)
    Descent (from heaven) onto Clouds (or descent on clouds)
    Lord's Shout
    Voice of Archangel
    Trumpet Sound
    Dead raised from the grave (first)
    Angels Gathering of ALL ELECT throughout the heavens and the earth [to one place]
    The Quickened Living and resurrected Dead are Judged by Jesus Himself at His coming
    Quickened Living and resurrected Dead are caught up into the clouds TOGETHER, and into the air with the Lord


    Whether you like it or not, these parallel texts indicate that all these events happen very close to each other. There is certainly a sequence to it, but they can not be stretched apart by large amounts of time.
    I am not sure why you think I believe any thing different. The rapture is portrayed using 3 different words in scripture. Parousia, erchomai, and apokalupsis/ apocalyptic (revealing/ revelation).
    Parousia, always refers to the rapture, the manifesting of his presence.
    Erchomai, his coming, also refers primarily to the rapture as well. It means his tangible presence, not just his manifestation. You know it is the rapture when it speaks of "coming to the Father", or "coming in glory".
    Apocalupsis, also, refers exclusively to the rapture as well. It is a near synonym with parousia, because it refers to the revelation of his glory.
    The rapture will consist of:
    1. Clouds
    2. Glory of the Father
    3. A trumpet blast
    4. With the angels
    5. Going TO the Father.
    6. To execute vengeance
    7. Every eye shall see him.

    You might want to recheck your understanding of 1 Thess 4. The clouds show up when we "meet him in the air", and not with the shout or with the voice of the archangel:

    *[[1Th 4:16]] KJV* For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    *17* THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    I am not disagreeing with you concerning when the trumpet. At that moment, our change takes place in an instant of time.

    Blessings
    The PuP

  13. #13
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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    I am not sure why you think I believe any thing different. The rapture is portrayed using 3 different words in scripture. Parousia, erchomai, and apokalupsis/ apocalyptic (revealing/ revelation).
    Parousia, always refers to the rapture, the manifesting of his presence.
    Erchomai, his coming, also refers primarily to the rapture as well. It means his tangible presence, not just his manifestation. You know it is the rapture when it speaks of "coming to the Father", or "coming in glory".
    Apocalupsis, also, refers exclusively to the rapture as well. It is a near synonym with parousia, because it refers to the revelation of his glory.
    The rapture will consist of:
    1. Clouds
    2. Glory of the Father
    3. A trumpet blast
    4. With the angels
    5. Going TO the Father.
    6. To execute vengeance
    7. Every eye shall see him.
    I am not disagreeing here... I am stating my understanding so that we can try to see if we are on common ground. I read that you saw "Our bodies will change in less time than the twinkling of an eye, but nothing is said to the individual timing of the precursors. It is just an I gained tradition." Although in a way I agree, I was currious to coax out the definition of the "gained tradition"... I.E. Did you believe I was in error with the interpretation I am presenting... So I tried to present it in a way that was clearer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    You might want to recheck your understanding of 1 Thess 4. The clouds show up when we "meet him in the air", and not with the shout or with the voice of the archangel:

    *[[1Th 4:16]] KJV* For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    *17* THEN we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord IN THE AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    I am not disagreeing with you concerning when the trumpet. At that moment, our change takes place in an instant of time.

    Blessings
    The PuP
    And this is why I was trying to give a clearer picture... "You might want to recheck your understanding of 1 Thess 4."...

    Specifically regarding the clouds at Christ's coming:

    I read you are saying that Jesus either appears in the heavens (above earth - not in the clouds), or does not appear up there... Then you see Jesus descending from that space above earth and its atmosphere to the earth's atmosphere. Then WHILE the Saints are being "caught up" into the air, Clouds form around them. Is this what I am hearing you believe?

    OK, Let's look together at the atmosphere as Christ is coming back to earth.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [Rev 7:1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


    We can see here that there will be a heavenly Quake, and the clouds are going to scroll up in the entire atmosphere of Earth. I.E. All winds and clouds will disappear from the atmosphere just as Jesus Christ approaches the earth within the context of His coming. This is very important, because EVERY EYE NEEDS TO SEE HIM COMING...

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Notice that Jesus brings clouds that are NOT PRESENT in the atmosphere within the context of moving towards earth "AT HIS COMING". This has nothing to do with Him already having arrived! People will see "HIS COMING".

    So then in 1 Thess 4:13-17 we can know this: "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1) Jesus will already be on clouds when He descends.
    2) Every Eye will see Him and be aware that there is a celestial event unfolding with huge cloud formations in the middle east (or the cloud cover could envelop the whole earth for that matter, because the clouds come towards earth and into our atmosphere...)
    3) The clouds that Jesus is upon themselves are HEAVENLY and not earthly created.
    ...a) Job 22:13 And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud? 14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
    ...b) Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    4) Heaven has its own clouds... God will not use Earth's clouds....

    So do you understand that in the context of 1 Thess 4, the entire earth will witness a cloud from Heaven coming through our literal solar system towards earth and every eye will see this celestial anomaly as the earth spins around (in relation to the giant cloud formation headed towards earth).

    This will fulfill the weird prophecy or Rev 1:7 that every eye will see Jesus on a cloud, when we think that Jesus will only be observable from one side of the earth when He is above earth on a cloud. Have you ever wondered how every eye can see Jesus on a cloud, when there is no physical way for the people on the other side of earth to see clouds on the other side of the hemnosphere? I just told you... The clouds (and JESUS) will be "COMING" for at least ONE ROTATION of the Earth, and the People of Earth WILL BE TERRIFIED OF WHAT IS "COMING UPON THE EARTH!!!!"

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

  14. #14
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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Soldier_of_Faith View Post
    I am not disagreeing here... I am stating my understanding so that we can try to see if we are on common ground. I read that you saw "Our bodies will change in less time than the twinkling of an eye, but nothing is said to the individual timing of the precursors. It is just an I gained tradition." Although in a way I agree, I was currious to coax out the definition of the "gained tradition"... I.E. Did you believe I was in error with the interpretation I am presenting... So I tried to present it in a way that was clearer.



    And this is why I was trying to give a clearer picture... "You might want to recheck your understanding of 1 Thess 4."...

    Specifically regarding the clouds at Christ's coming:

    I read you are saying that Jesus either appears in the heavens (above earth - not in the clouds), or does not appear up there... Then you see Jesus descending from that space above earth and its atmosphere to the earth's atmosphere. Then WHILE the Saints are being "caught up" into the air, Clouds form around them. Is this what I am hearing you believe?

    OK, Let's look together at the atmosphere as Christ is coming back to earth.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. [Rev 7:1] And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.


    We can see here that there will be a heavenly Quake, and the clouds are going to scroll up in the entire atmosphere of Earth. I.E. All winds and clouds will disappear from the atmosphere just as Jesus Christ approaches the earth within the context of His coming. This is very important, because EVERY EYE NEEDS TO SEE HIM COMING...

    Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

    Notice that Jesus brings clouds that are NOT PRESENT in the atmosphere within the context of moving towards earth "AT HIS COMING". This has nothing to do with Him already having arrived! People will see "HIS COMING".

    So then in 1 Thess 4:13-17 we can know this: "16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

    1) Jesus will already be on clouds when He descends.
    2) Every Eye will see Him and be aware that there is a celestial event unfolding with huge cloud formations in the middle east (or the cloud cover could envelop the whole earth for that matter, because the clouds come towards earth and into our atmosphere...)
    3) The clouds that Jesus is upon themselves are HEAVENLY and not earthly created.
    ...a) Job 22:13 And thou sayest, How doth God know? can he judge through the dark cloud? 14 Thick clouds are a covering to him, that he seeth not; and he walketh in the circuit of heaven.
    ...b) Daniel 7:13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
    4) Heaven has its own clouds... God will not use Earth's clouds....

    So do you understand that in the context of 1 Thess 4, the entire earth will witness a cloud from Heaven coming through our literal solar system towards earth and every eye will see this celestial anomaly as the earth spins around (in relation to the giant cloud formation headed towards earth).

    This will fulfill the weird prophecy or Rev 1:7 that every eye will see Jesus on a cloud, when we think that Jesus will only be observable from one side of the earth when He is above earth on a cloud. Have you ever wondered how every eye can see Jesus on a cloud, when there is no physical way for the people on the other side of earth to see clouds on the other side of the hemnosphere? I just told you... The clouds (and JESUS) will be "COMING" for at least ONE ROTATION of the Earth, and the People of Earth WILL BE TERRIFIED OF WHAT IS "COMING UPON THE EARTH!!!!"

    Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains; 16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: 17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
    We seem to have gotten away from my original. Let me see if I can bring us back. Those verses from Joel 2 & 3;Amos 1; Jeremiah 25; and Haggai 2 all point to the time when God will shake the heavens and the earth. I am not sure on where you stand on that issue. Let me add a verse:
    *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
    *[[Joe 3:17]] KJV* So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    It says, "so shall ye know that I [The Lord] am
    DWELLING in Zion, my holy mountain [[Jeremiah used the word habitation]]". Look at the 2 verses together. [Paraphrase] "You shall know that I am dwelling in Zion, when I shake the heavens and the earth, when (after) I utter my voice from there". How did he get there without them knowing it if every eye, including the tribes of Israel, did not witness his arrival? He utters his voice from Jerusalem, THEN they know that he is dwelling there. The glorious appearing to every eye didn't take place before he utters his voice from there.

    Another point concerns Rev 1:7, when EVERY eye shall see him [in the rapture]. The word used for coming is the same as found in Matt 24:30. Erchomai. As you know, erchomai means his arrival, not his parousia/ presence. Where is he arriving at? On earth? Certainly not, it's the rapture! He is arriving WITH THE CLOUDS in heaven, with all of the saints with him... With great glory! The mourning tribes shall see him coming, aka, arriving in heaven. Do you see now how erchomai refers to his arrival IN HEAVEN when every eye shall see him COMING in the clouds with great glory?

    Now, look again at:

    *[[Joe 3:17]] KJV* So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    THEN, shall Jerusalem be holy. When is that? WhenI, the Lord, shake the heavens and earth, and you know that I am dwelling in Zion!

    Connect the dots between the 6th seal of Rev. 6 when the stars fall from heaven and the great earthquake, WITH Satan and the stars of heaven being cast out in Rev 12. It is when God's voice [FROM JERUSALEM] shakes the heavens and the earth. THEN shall Jerusalem be holy. The 5th trumpet is the driving out of all unholy people dwelling there.

    Blessings to you,
    The PuP

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    Re: Preview to the 5th trumpet?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pesachpup View Post
    We seem to have gotten away from my original. Let me see if I can bring us back. Those verses from Joel 2 & 3;Amos 1; Jeremiah 25; and Haggai 2 all point to the time when God will shake the heavens and the earth. I am not sure on where you stand on that issue. Let me add a verse:
    *[[Joe 3:16]] KJV* The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
    *[[Joe 3:17]] KJV* So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    It says, "so shall ye know that I [The Lord] am
    DWELLING in Zion, my holy mountain [[Jeremiah used the word habitation]]". Look at the 2 verses together. [Paraphrase] "You shall know that I am dwelling in Zion, when I shake the heavens and the earth, when (after) I utter my voice from there". How did he get there without them knowing it if every eye, including the tribes of Israel, did not witness his arrival? He utters his voice from Jerusalem, THEN they know that he is dwelling there. The glorious appearing to every eye didn't take place before he utters his voice from there.

    Another point concerns Rev 1:7, when EVERY eye shall see him [in the rapture]. The word used for coming is the same as found in Matt 24:30. Erchomai. As you know, erchomai means his arrival, not his parousia/ presence. Where is he arriving at? On earth? Certainly not, it's the rapture! He is arriving WITH THE CLOUDS in heaven, with all of the saints with him... With great glory! The mourning tribes shall see him coming, aka, arriving in heaven. Do you see now how erchomai refers to his arrival IN HEAVEN when every eye shall see him COMING in the clouds with great glory?

    Now, look again at:

    *[[Joe 3:17]] KJV* So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

    THEN, shall Jerusalem be holy. When is that? WhenI, the Lord, shake the heavens and earth, and you know that I am dwelling in Zion!

    Connect the dots between the 6th seal of Rev. 6 when the stars fall from heaven and the great earthquake, WITH Satan and the stars of heaven being cast out in Rev 12. It is when God's voice [FROM JERUSALEM] shakes the heavens and the earth. THEN shall Jerusalem be holy. The 5th trumpet is the driving out of all unholy people dwelling there.

    Blessings to you,
    The PuP
    Interesting view.

    1st let me address that I agree with you that there is an appearing in the Heavens which is a coming (erchomai) where He will appear and descend into the atmosphere, but not onto the earth in His PRESENCE. [then RAPTURE] Then after this, Jesus will return, (having already COME (Erchomai), and still waiting in the clouds with all the Saints until the time comes to fight at Armageddon. Then His PAROUSIA, where He will be ON the earth.

    However, I see that there are actually two important earthquakes that announce the Lord. Each one is distinct.

    There is one Earthquake to announce the COMING of the Lord and the Beginning Wrath of the Lamb, Jesus. Then there is another to announce the completion of the Wrath of God the Father, and to announce the PHYSICAL RETURN of Christ Jesus.

    1) These are all the same Event Which announce the coming of Christ in the Clouds, and the Lamb's Wrath: This Earthquake is the Son's Doing: This happens at the 6th Seal.

    Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

    Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

    Luke 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; 26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken. 27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. 25 See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: 26 Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.

    Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood; 13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind. 14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.



    2) These are all right before Armageddon and are a much larger Quake then that last one. This earthquake is the Father's Doing: This earthquake happens after the 7th Bowl Judgement. This earthquake happens at the time (or right before) Jesus returns on the White Horse.

    Joel 3:16 The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

    Isaiah 13:13 Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. 14 And it shall be as the chased roe, and as a sheep that no man taketh up: they shall every man turn to his own people, and flee every one into his own land. 15 Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword.

    Isaiah 24:18 And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake. 19 The earth is utterly broken down, the earth is clean dissolved, the earth is moved exceedingly. 20 The earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall be removed like a cottage; and the transgression thereof shall be heavy upon it; and it shall fall, and not rise again. 21 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall punish the host of the high ones that are on high, and the kings of the earth upon the earth.

    Ezek 38:19 For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel; 20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground. 21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains, saith the Lord God: every man's sword shall be against his brother.

    Hagg 2:6 For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; 7 And I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts. 8 The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the Lord of hosts. 9 The glory of this latter house shall be greater than of the former, saith the Lord of hosts: and in this place will I give peace, saith the Lord of hosts.

    Hagg 2:20 And again the word of the Lord came unto Haggai in the four and twentieth day of the month, saying, 21 Speak to Zerubbabel, governor of Judah, saying, I will shake the heavens and the earth; 22 And I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen; and I will overthrow the chariots, and those that ride in them; and the horses and their riders shall come down, every one by the sword of his brother. 23 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, will I take thee, O Zerubbabel, my servant, the son of Shealtiel, saith the Lord, and will make thee as a signet: for I have chosen thee, saith the Lord of hosts.



    These are TWO SEPARATE EVENTS... That is where I stand on earthquakes...

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