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Thread: justification and validation

  1. #1
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    justification and validation

    These are 2 things I find both biblical and essential. Justification is what Christ did for us in forgiving our sins. We couldn't forgive our own sins. What we committed against God required God Himself to forgive us. To restore us to dignity the Creator had to absolve us of our guilt.

    Justification is from heaven, and not from the earth. When God came to earth in the form of His Son, He sent His justification to man, and gave us a new chance. This is justification--not what we did, but what He gave us despite ourselves, so that we could receive from Him something that restored us to His good graces, and to our original mission.

    On the other hand, there is something we must do. As opposed to the "works" that Paul indicated we could not do to be justified, there is a works that we must do to be validated. We must *accept* the justification Christ won for us. In choosing to obey God's Son we enable ourselves to receive his gift of righteousness to us so that we may live it and do it. If we do not show the results of God's justification, we cannot be validated as the recipients of His grace.

    We hear it spoken of sanctification as if it is a kind of works we do in order to be justified. But it is not. Sanctification is the purity we receive through the justification of heaven. Christ's righteousness in heaven is imputed to us so that we do not have to earn this righteousness. Rather, we produce righteousness simply because we receive it from heaven. It is an *alien spirit,* and not our own spirit.

    On the other hand, through our sanctification, we are able to participate in the righteousness that is imputed to us. Though we are not perfect ourselves, we have received Christ's own perfect righteousness such that we participate in it.

    And so, we validate ourselves by participating in this righteousness, not by being perfect, but by showing that the righteousness we do participate in is qualitatively perfect. It is, in reality, Christ's righteousness, which must be perfect.

    We show forth a quality of righteousness that is perfect by virtue of its being divine. We do not live it perfectly, but we do show forth the divine quality of righteousness that identifies it as perfect in Christ, who imputes his perfection to us for the forgiveness of sins.

    What do I mean by a "divine quality" of righteousness? If we are to truly participate in Christ's righteousness, we must be able to identify it. It is not simply a display of good works lined up in a row to count a number of good deeds or charitable acts. Rather, it is a display of spiritual love, indicated by a divine presence. It is a love that graces all true works that are good and binds them together consistently as from a single Deity.

    If we truly accept this divine love we will not just do good works to earn our way to heaven. Rather, we will show that we participate in the love of God consistently and for everything we try to do. This is salvation, that we have adopted the righteousness of heaven, and not our own limited number of good works. We embrace our justification from above, and accept its perfection as being imputed to us when we accept it and live it. That's what validates us. I trust this is not too convoluted, or too simplistic.

  2. #2
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    These are 2 things I find both biblical and essential. Justification is what Christ did for us in forgiving our sins. We couldn't forgive our own sins. What we committed against God required God Himself to forgive us. To restore us to dignity the Creator had to absolve us of our guilt.

    Justification is from heaven, and not from the earth. When God came to earth in the form of His Son, He sent His justification to man, and gave us a new chance. This is justification--not what we did, but what He gave us despite ourselves, so that we could receive from Him something that restored us to His good graces, and to our original mission.

    On the other hand, there is something we must do. As opposed to the "works" that Paul indicated we could not do to be justified, there is a works that we must do to be validated. We must *accept* the justification Christ won for us. In choosing to obey God's Son we enable ourselves to receive his gift of righteousness to us so that we may live it and do it. If we do not show the results of God's justification, we cannot be validated as the recipients of His grace.

    We hear it spoken of sanctification as if it is a kind of works we do in order to be justified. But it is not. Sanctification is the purity we receive through the justification of heaven. Christ's righteousness in heaven is imputed to us so that we do not have to earn this righteousness. Rather, we produce righteousness simply because we receive it from heaven. It is an *alien spirit,* and not our own spirit.

    On the other hand, through our sanctification, we are able to participate in the righteousness that is imputed to us. Though we are not perfect ourselves, we have received Christ's own perfect righteousness such that we participate in it.

    And so, we validate ourselves by participating in this righteousness, not by being perfect, but by showing that the righteousness we do participate in is qualitatively perfect. It is, in reality, Christ's righteousness, which must be perfect.

    We show forth a quality of righteousness that is perfect by virtue of its being divine. We do not live it perfectly, but we do show forth the divine quality of righteousness that identifies it as perfect in Christ, who imputes his perfection to us for the forgiveness of sins.

    What do I mean by a "divine quality" of righteousness? If we are to truly participate in Christ's righteousness, we must be able to identify it. It is not simply a display of good works lined up in a row to count a number of good deeds or charitable acts. Rather, it is a display of spiritual love, indicated by a divine presence. It is a love that graces all true works that are good and binds them together consistently as from a single Deity.

    If we truly accept this divine love we will not just do good works to earn our way to heaven. Rather, we will show that we participate in the love of God consistently and for everything we try to do. This is salvation, that we have adopted the righteousness of heaven, and not our own limited number of good works. We embrace our justification from above, and accept its perfection as being imputed to us when we accept it and live it. That's what validates us. I trust this is not too convoluted, or too simplistic.
    The personal belief of any man or woman is usually based upon, (i) research, (ii) personal experience, or (iii) personal thought process. This posting falls into category #3. If it was #1, you would have posted verses from scripture, or (perish the thought) from some other "holy book". If it was #2, you would have related your experiences concerning standing before an absolutely just God and surviving the encounter because you had His justification imputed to you. So, relating your train of thought, based solely on the musing of the human mind, is your right, but ...
    • the human mind is terribly fallen and as scripture says; "can a bad tree produce good fruit?"
    • human thought seems to in the wrong place on a Forum for investigating God's thoughts

    The world's philosophers follow this process of working things through their minds unaided by research and experience, and they have all landed up opposing God's thoughts. Genesis 6:5 warns us:

    " ... the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Who will be the one to give God's view of justification and validation? Well, we can start by saying that the word "valid" or "validation" does not appear in the while Bible?

  3. #3
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    The personal belief of any man or woman is usually based upon, (i) research, (ii) personal experience, or (iii) personal thought process. This posting falls into category #3. If it was #1, you would have posted verses from scripture, or (perish the thought) from some other "holy book". If it was #2, you would have related your experiences concerning standing before an absolutely just God and surviving the encounter because you had His justification imputed to you. So, relating your train of thought, based solely on the musing of the human mind, is your right, but ...
    • the human mind is terribly fallen and as scripture says; "can a bad tree produce good fruit?"
    • human thought seems to in the wrong place on a Forum for investigating God's thoughts

    The world's philosophers follow this process of working things through their minds unaided by research and experience, and they have all landed up opposing God's thoughts. Genesis 6:5 warns us:

    " ... the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

    Who will be the one to give God's view of justification and validation? Well, we can start by saying that the word "valid" or "validation" does not appear in the while Bible?
    Christians have gotten their views of Justification and Sanctification from the Bible. Both terms are found in the Bible. We must pick what understanding to embrace, after consideration of the various views, because a number of the views are in conflict with one another. There is nothing wrong with discussing which view to take, since all of the choices are "biblical," and one position may fit best in our mind with what we see the Bible saying.

    Rom 3.28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
    Rom 4.5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


    Here we see the our part is faith, and God's part is to justify through the atonement of God's Son. This is not to say that works under the Law, or any works, are invalid in terms of doing right. It is only saying that our record of righteousness is insufficient for our justification. Justification must come from God in heaven.

    1 Cor 1. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
    1 Cor 6.11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    I know I wasn't very clear here, but my point is that both justification and sanctification are from heaven, and are not the product of man. The role that man plays I refer to as his "validation." It is the "obedience" part, the Christian works part, that validates our faith as genuine. When we place our faith in Christ, we receive from him both his justification and his sanctification.

    Sanctification is not something we do. Once we are made holy in Christ we are able to do good, having had our sins dealt with at the cross. Non-Christians may do good, but cannot be either justified or sanctified without Christ. We require regeneration from heaven in order to do good and be viewed as eligible for heaven. Pretty simple.

    The point is, God wishes for us to *embrace Him,* and not just our own good works. Secondly, God wishes *us* to be regenerated, and not just perform good works. This means that we must be *changed into God's own image,* and not just imitate Him. We wish to *be good* like God, and not just try to *do good* to be eligible for heaven. It is those who actually are *made good* by God that may enter the Kingdom of heaven.

  4. #4
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Christians have gotten their views of Justification and Sanctification from the Bible. Both terms are found in the Bible. We must pick what understanding to embrace, after consideration of the various views, because a number of the views are in conflict with one another. There is nothing wrong with discussing which view to take, since all of the choices are "biblical," and one position may fit best in our mind with what we see the Bible saying.

    Rom 3.28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
    Rom 4.5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness.


    Here we see the our part is faith, and God's part is to justify through the atonement of God's Son. This is not to say that works under the Law, or any works, are invalid in terms of doing right. It is only saying that our record of righteousness is insufficient for our justification. Justification must come from God in heaven.

    1 Cor 1. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
    1 Cor 6.11 But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

    I know I wasn't very clear here, but my point is that both justification and sanctification are from heaven, and are not the product of man. The role that man plays I refer to as his "validation." It is the "obedience" part, the Christian works part, that validates our faith as genuine. When we place our faith in Christ, we receive from him both his justification and his sanctification.

    Sanctification is not something we do. Once we are made holy in Christ we are able to do good, having had our sins dealt with at the cross. Non-Christians may do good, but cannot be either justified or sanctified without Christ. We require regeneration from heaven in order to do good and be viewed as eligible for heaven. Pretty simple.

    The point is, God wishes for us to *embrace Him,* and not just our own good works. Secondly, God wishes *us* to be regenerated, and not just perform good works. This means that we must be *changed into God's own image,* and not just imitate Him. We wish to *be good* like God, and not just try to *do good* to be eligible for heaven. It is those who actually are *made good* by God that may enter the Kingdom of heaven.
    I will first comment on the bold at the end of your posting. The myth of being "eligible for heaven" is widespread. The pagan beliefs spawned at Babylon are promoted and believed by men everywhere. One may enter the "celestial Lodge" if one's works are found, in the scales of justice (a symbol that many justice systems take), to we weighed slightly in favor of the good. But for those "in the balance", Purgatory is first where one's sins are purged. NOT by the blood of Christ are they purged, but ANOTHER purging fire of personal suffering. But (i) scripture dos not support this myth, and (ii) it is "the Kingdom (OUT) OF Heaven", NOT "the Kingdom IN Heaven". But then, let us examine ENTRY to the Kingdom OF Heaven. To avoid a lengthy posting, I will limit myself to the Book of Matthew alone, and I will show,with scripture, that the Kingdom of heaven is GAINED by WORKS:-
    • Matthew 3:2; "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." "Repent" means to change course 180° from the course of your present actions.
    • Matthew 4:17; "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Ditto the above.
    • Matthew 5:3; "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.". Not faith, not some imputed justification, but the ATTITUDE of the saint
    • Matthew 5:10; "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Not faith, not some imputed righteousness, but the willingness to be persecuted for standing for something.
    • Matthew 5:19; "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." One's rank in the Kingdom - by imputed righteousness, imputed justification ... OR by "keeping the Commandments"!?
    • Matthew 5:20; "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." It is "YOUR" righteousness!
    • Matthew 7:21; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." He that "DOETH"???
    • Matthew 11:12; "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." By imputed justification? By imputed righteousness? Or BY VIOLENT ACTIONS?
    • Matthew 13:44; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field." BY SELLING ALL THAT HE HAS!
    • Matthew 13:45-46; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it." By imputed righteousness or justification? I think not! "By SELLING ALL that he had"!
    • Matthew 13:47-48; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away." Not imputed justification or righteousness - BUT THE GOOD!
    • Matthew 18:3; "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." "BECOME in attitude and behavior as little children".
    • Matthew 18:4; "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." HUMILITY - an intrinsic personal view that one is of low importance.
    • Matthew 19:23; "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven" VERSUS Luke 6:20; "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." A CONDITION of worldly wealth.
    • Matthew 22:2, 11; "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, ... And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment". A "Garment" in Parable is one's WORKS (e.g. Rev.19:8).
    • Matthew 25:14, 16 & 21; "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods ... Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, ... His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Entering the Kingdom depends on how one used one's GIFT.

    It is at once clear that entering Christ's Kingdom when He sets it up on earth at His Second Coming IS VERY MUCH ATTACHED TO ONE'S OWN WORKS!

  5. #5
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I will first comment on the bold at the end of your posting. The myth of being "eligible for heaven" is widespread. The pagan beliefs spawned at Babylon are promoted and believed by men everywhere. One may enter the "celestial Lodge" if one's works are found, in the scales of justice (a symbol that many justice systems take), to we weighed slightly in favor of the good. But for those "in the balance", Purgatory is first where one's sins are purged. NOT by the blood of Christ are they purged, but ANOTHER purging fire of personal suffering. But (i) scripture dos not support this myth, and (ii) it is "the Kingdom (OUT) OF Heaven", NOT "the Kingdom IN Heaven". But then, let us examine ENTRY to the Kingdom OF Heaven. To avoid a lengthy posting, I will limit myself to the Book of Matthew alone, and I will show,with scripture, that the Kingdom of heaven is GAINED by WORKS:-
    • Matthew 3:2; "And saying, Repent ye: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." "Repent" means to change course 180° from the course of your present actions.
    • Matthew 4:17; "From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Ditto the above.
    • Matthew 5:3; "Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.". Not faith, not some imputed justification, but the ATTITUDE of the saint
    • Matthew 5:10; "Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Not faith, not some imputed righteousness, but the willingness to be persecuted for standing for something.
    • Matthew 5:19; "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." One's rank in the Kingdom - by imputed righteousness, imputed justification ... OR by "keeping the Commandments"!?
    • Matthew 5:20; "For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." It is "YOUR" righteousness!
    • Matthew 7:21; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." He that "DOETH"???
    • Matthew 11:12; "And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force." By imputed justification? By imputed righteousness? Or BY VIOLENT ACTIONS?
    • Matthew 13:44; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field." BY SELLING ALL THAT HE HAS!
    • Matthew 13:45-46; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Who, when he had found one pearl of great price, went and sold all that he had, and bought it." By imputed righteousness or justification? I think not! "By SELLING ALL that he had"!
    • Matthew 13:47-48; "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away." Not imputed justification or righteousness - BUT THE GOOD!
    • Matthew 18:3; "And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven." "BECOME in attitude and behavior as little children".
    • Matthew 18:4; "Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven." HUMILITY - an intrinsic personal view that one is of low importance.
    • Matthew 19:23; "Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven" VERSUS Luke 6:20; "And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God." A CONDITION of worldly wealth.
    • Matthew 22:2, 11; "The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, ... And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment". A "Garment" in Parable is one's WORKS (e.g. Rev.19:8).
    • Matthew 25:14, 16 & 21; "For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods ... Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, ... His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." Entering the Kingdom depends on how one used one's GIFT.

    It is at once clear that entering Christ's Kingdom when He sets it up on earth at His Second Coming IS VERY MUCH ATTACHED TO ONE'S OWN WORKS!
    I will make a lot of my friends mad, but I must agree with you--at least in part. That was my whole purpose for posting this. I've been discussing with my brother this subject, and we were raised as good Protestants. My brother is reading Luther right now. And he is an Arminian. I am a Predestinarian.

    So we have quite a discussion. But I think we both believe that justification and sanctification come from heaven, and not from our own works. My argument has been, and still is, that *works validate our salvation.* It is a matter, then, of semantics as to how we are to phrase it, whether we gain entry to heaven through our works, or we become justified by our works.

    My argument tries to stay close to the biblical definition of justification, which has to do with what Christ alone did--something that we could not do alone. This does not mean we don't play a role in validation. It only means that biblically, justification is something Christ alone did.

    Clearly, we play a role in obtaining heaven, not through justification, nor through sanctification, but simply by obeying in order to validate our faith. Faith indeed saves us, and is a kind of work in the sense that it must be validated by works. But very few good Protestants are going to say this. All good Catholics will say this.

  6. #6
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I will make a lot of my friends mad, but I must agree with you--at least in part. That was my whole purpose for posting this. I've been discussing with my brother this subject, and we were raised as good Protestants. My brother is reading Luther right now. And he is an Arminian. I am a Predestinarian.

    So we have quite a discussion. But I think we both believe that justification and sanctification come from heaven, and not from our own works. My argument has been, and still is, that *works validate our salvation.* It is a matter, then, of semantics as to how we are to phrase it, whether we gain entry to heaven through our works, or we become justified by our works.

    My argument tries to stay close to the biblical definition of justification, which has to do what Christ alone did--something that we could not do alone. This does not mean we don't play a role in validation. It only means that biblically, justification is something Christ alone did.

    Clearly, we play a role in obtaining heaven, not through justification, nor through sanctification, but simply by obeying in order to validate our faith. Faith indeed saves us, and is a kind of work in the sense that it must be validated by works. But very few good Protestants are going to say this. All good Catholics will say this.
    Let me show an example of what I think you are trying to say. And of course, who knows the mind of a man, so disregard if I missed the point. Let us take Aaron of Levi. Aaron has multiple problems:
    1. He must be BORN to the line of Isaac to be able to involved in anything
    2. He must be born to the line of Levi to be eligible to serve in the Temple
    3. He must be chosen of God above all his peers, even Moses, to be High Priest of Israel
    4. But he has no chance of any of this if the Angle of Death gets him

    So, by God's SELECTION he is chosen. And by God's way out, or Substitution of a Lamb, he survives. Up to this point he only the elected one and he is saved - but saved for a purpose. And this election and salvation has nothing to do with Aaron except he had take part in the slaying and eating of the Substitute. It was all God's ELECTION and MERCY

    His next set of problems arise from this selection and salvation. He is selected and saved to represent and be a mediator for Israel. For this he must be so holy so as not to offend a perfectly Holy God into whose presence he must come once a year. But for this Aaron falls far short. He is a builder of a Golden Calf, he sweats, he is unclean, he fears the people. He possesses Adam's sin-nature and is guilty of trespasses. How will he enter the presence of the Most High and Holy God without being struck dead on the spot? The answer is that God prepares for Aaron a sacrifice, a washing, a set of clothes and a ritual, that if followed to the last jot and tittle, will ensure (i) Aaron's safety, (ii) communion with God, and (iii) Israel's representation before God. It is still dirty, profane, sinning, sweating, fallen Aaron under those clothes, but by;
    1. the sacrifice he is atoned for and has this atonement imputed to him (although he should have died for his own sins)
    2. the washing he is reckoned to be clean
    3. the clothes he is justified because God does not see what is underneath

    So Aaron has a string of things IMPUTED to him that he did not achieve HIMSELF. They were things God ADDED TO MAKE AARON WORTHY.

    But now he must serve diligently and faithfully to be part of the company to enter the Good Land. But we hear of him building a Golden Calf, fearing the people like Saul did, rebelling against Moses, and we hear no protest at Kadesh-Barnea when the ten spies brought their evil report. Thus Aaron falls in the Wilderness, does not gain the Land, BECAUSE OF HIS WORKS. ANOTHER Levite must be initiated to take his place for SERVICE in the Good Land.

    To summarize;
    1. Aaron must be chosen
    2. Aaron must be born of the right line
    3. Aaron must partake of the Lamb to avoid the angel of death
    4. These are all of God. Aaron has no say except to partake in the sacrifice and eat.

    The CHRISTIAN is CHOSEN (Eph.1:4), must BELIEVE in Christ the Lamb's saving capabilities, must be born by the Holy Spirit by this same faith (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-5). All is of God, even the faith needed (Eph.2:8) and the Christian is saved and made partaker of the divine Life.

    Now, for AUDIENCE, for FELLOWSHIP with God, the Christian is too profane. He must have the blood of Christ carried into the Temple in heaven by Christ (Heb.9:12). He must be washed by Christ (Jn.13). He must "put on" Christ as his Garment (Gal.3:27). A Garment is one's works (Rev.19:8) etc.). The Christian's works, no matter how good, are not enough by far for a Holy God, so the Christian must be clothed with the Works of Christ. And so, Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED to the Christian for audience with God. The standard for audience with God is too high for even the best Christian. So he has an atoning sacrifice Whose blood has been carried ahead of him into the Holy of Holies. He is washed by Christ. He has Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to him. So by God's PREPARING of certain things, the Christian is JUSTIFIED when he appears before the most Holy God.

    But now the Christian has been offered the Kingdom - his INHERITANCE. He was made to rule and subdue THE EARTH. This is set before him AS A PRIZE for his WORKS. Just as Aaron must enter the Good Land and serve God "in the Place where He will chose to put His Name", so must the Christian enter the Kingdom to rule and subdue the nations and the animal kingdom. NOW it is up to the Christian. It is HIS WORKS that count. He will be judged at the Bema and either found worthy to ENTER the Kingdom as co-king of Christ, and co-priest with Christ, OR ... the Christian, because of sloth, habitual sin and the absence of an intimate relationship with Christ, will be BARRED from this Kingdom. Just as Moses could only LOOK on this Kingdom, but not enter it, and then die, so also must the wayward Christian, be resurrected to "see" the Kingdom, but be cast out where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", and be "hurt" of the Second Death (Rev.2:11). This third part of a Christian's journey is fully up to him/her. It is either, deny yourself, take up your cross daily, cast away the pleasures of this world, forsake family and friends, be hated, hounded and martyred, and build an intimate loving relationship with his/her coming Bridegroom, OR ... it is seek the pleasures and fame of this world, preserve your soul-life and your flesh, join the sinners and revelers, and forget your Fiancé.

    1. The first part of the Christian journey is election and salvation. God does it all.
    2. The second part of the Christian journey is fellowship and audience with a Holy God. God imputes the righteousness and justification of Christ to the Christian because his/hers do not nearly make the grade
    3. The third part of the journey is, DID THE SAINT'S WORKS MAKE HIM/HER WORTHY TO ENTER AND REPRESENT CHRIST IN HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH WHEN HE COMES?

  7. #7
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    Let me show an example of what I think you are trying to say. And of course, who knows the mind of a man, so disregard if I missed the point. Let us take Aaron of Levi. Aaron has multiple problems:
    1. He must be BORN to the line of Isaac to be able to involved in anything
    2. He must be born to the line of Levi to be eligible to serve in the Temple
    3. He must be chosen of God above all his peers, even Moses, to be High Priest of Israel
    4. But he has no chance of any of this if the Angle of Death gets him

    So, by God's SELECTION he is chosen. And by God's way out, or Substitution of a Lamb, he survives. Up to this point he only the elected one and he is saved - but saved for a purpose. And this election and salvation has nothing to do with Aaron except he had take part in the slaying and eating of the Substitute. It was all God's ELECTION and MERCY

    His next set of problems arise from this selection and salvation. He is selected and saved to represent and be a mediator for Israel. For this he must be so holy so as not to offend a perfectly Holy God into whose presence he must come once a year. But for this Aaron falls far short. He is a builder of a Golden Calf, he sweats, he is unclean, he fears the people. He possesses Adam's sin-nature and is guilty of trespasses. How will he enter the presence of the Most High and Holy God without being struck dead on the spot? The answer is that God prepares for Aaron a sacrifice, a washing, a set of clothes and a ritual, that if followed to the last jot and tittle, will ensure (i) Aaron's safety, (ii) communion with God, and (iii) Israel's representation before God. It is still dirty, profane, sinning, sweating, fallen Aaron under those clothes, but by;
    1. the sacrifice he is atoned for and has this atonement imputed to him (although he should have died for his own sins)
    2. the washing he is reckoned to be clean
    3. the clothes he is justified because God does not see what is underneath

    So Aaron has a string of things IMPUTED to him that he did not achieve HIMSELF. They were things God ADDED TO MAKE AARON WORTHY.

    But now he must serve diligently and faithfully to be part of the company to enter the Good Land. But we hear of him building a Golden Calf, fearing the people like Saul did, rebelling against Moses, and we hear no protest at Kadesh-Barnea when the ten spies brought their evil report. Thus Aaron falls in the Wilderness, does not gain the Land, BECAUSE OF HIS WORKS. ANOTHER Levite must be initiated to take his place for SERVICE in the Good Land.

    To summarize;
    1. Aaron must be chosen
    2. Aaron must be born of the right line
    3. Aaron must partake of the Lamb to avoid the angel of death
    4. These are all of God. Aaron has no say except to partake in the sacrifice and eat.

    The CHRISTIAN is CHOSEN (Eph.1:4), must BELIEVE in Christ the Lamb's saving capabilities, must be born by the Holy Spirit by this same faith (Jn.1:12-13, 3:3-5). All is of God, even the faith needed (Eph.2:8) and the Christian is saved and made partaker of the divine Life.

    Now, for AUDIENCE, for FELLOWSHIP with God, the Christian is too profane. He must have the blood of Christ carried into the Temple in heaven by Christ (Heb.9:12). He must be washed by Christ (Jn.13). He must "put on" Christ as his Garment (Gal.3:27). A Garment is one's works (Rev.19:8) etc.). The Christian's works, no matter how good, are not enough by far for a Holy God, so the Christian must be clothed with the Works of Christ. And so, Christ's righteousness is IMPUTED to the Christian for audience with God. The standard for audience with God is too high for even the best Christian. So he has an atoning sacrifice Whose blood has been carried ahead of him into the Holy of Holies. He is washed by Christ. He has Christ's righteousness IMPUTED to him. So by God's PREPARING of certain things, the Christian is JUSTIFIED when he appears before the most Holy God.

    But now the Christian has been offered the Kingdom - his INHERITANCE. He was made to rule and subdue THE EARTH. This is set before him AS A PRIZE for his WORKS. Just as Aaron must enter the Good Land and serve God "in the Place where He will chose to put His Name", so must the Christian enter the Kingdom to rule and subdue the nations and the animal kingdom. NOW it is up to the Christian. It is HIS WORKS that count. He will be judged at the Bema and either found worthy to ENTER the Kingdom as co-king of Christ, and co-priest with Christ, OR ... the Christian, because of sloth, habitual sin and the absence of an intimate relationship with Christ, will be BARRED from this Kingdom. Just as Moses could only LOOK on this Kingdom, but not enter it, and then die, so also must the wayward Christian, be resurrected to "see" the Kingdom, but be cast out where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth", and be "hurt" of the Second Death (Rev.2:11). This third part of a Christian's journey is fully up to him/her. It is either, deny yourself, take up your cross daily, cast away the pleasures of this world, forsake family and friends, be hated, hounded and martyred, and build an intimate loving relationship with his/her coming Bridegroom, OR ... it is seek the pleasures and fame of this world, preserve your soul-life and your flesh, join the sinners and revelers, and forget your Fiancé.

    1. The first part of the Christian journey is election and salvation. God does it all.
    2. The second part of the Christian journey is fellowship and audience with a Holy God. God imputes the righteousness and justification of Christ to the Christian because his/hers do not nearly make the grade
    3. The third part of the journey is, DID THE SAINT'S WORKS MAKE HIM/HER WORTHY TO ENTER AND REPRESENT CHRIST IN HIS KINGDOM ON EARTH WHEN HE COMES?
    I can't really find fault with anything you've said, unless I missed a nuanced, hidden argument? I agree that justification is from heaven, by Christ, and not by ourselves. I've said this from the beginning.

    My 2nd argument is that sanctification is also from heaven, just as you seem to be arguing that our righteousness is imputed to us by Christ. So we are agreed on all that.

    Finally, I've argued that our works validate our justification and sanctification. It is worthless to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us if we don't actually adopt some of those works of Christ! As James said, our faith is worthless without the works of faith to validate that faith!

    So I don't really see, based on what you've said, that we disagree at all? Our redemption comes from heaven. And our works come from us, after we have been redeemed.

    I would only add that the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is without value if we do not actually produce the righteousness that has been imputed to us! We do not produce righteousness in a flawless way. But the righteousness we produce is qualitatively the same as the righteousness Christ has imputed to us. It is *Christ's righteousness.* It is a divine righteousness. It is God's love.

    But it is important that we not only produce this divine love, but that we also turn our lives completely over to this divine love. If we remain in the carnal way of life, and only produce righteous works in a momentary way, we do not show that we have fully committed to Christ's righteousness.

    As such, we may only be doing good for carnal purposes, and not as true children of God. Only God can fully determine when someone fully chooses for his righteousness or not. When he does, he is given by God to become a new creature. Then we also can tell who has truly been saved or not.

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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I can't really find fault with anything you've said, unless I missed a nuanced, hidden argument? I agree that justification is from heaven, by Christ, and not by ourselves. I've said this from the beginning.

    My 2nd argument is that sanctification is also from heaven, just as you seem to be arguing that our righteousness is imputed to us by Christ. So we are agreed on all that.

    Finally, I've argued that our works validate our justification and sanctification. It is worthless to have Christ's righteousness imputed to us if we don't actually adopt some of those works of Christ! As James said, our faith is worthless without the works of faith to validate that faith!

    So I don't really see, based on what you've said, that we disagree at all? Our redemption comes from heaven. And our works come from us, after we have been redeemed.

    I would only add that the imputation of Christ's righteousness to us is without value if we do not actually produce the righteousness that has been imputed to us! We do not produce righteousness in a flawless way. But the righteousness we produce is qualitatively the same as the righteousness Christ has imputed to us. It is *Christ's righteousness.* It is a divine righteousness. It is God's love.

    But it is important that we not only produce this divine love, but that we also turn our lives completely over to this divine love. If we remain in the carnal way of life, and only produce righteous works in a momentary way, we do not show that we have fully committed to Christ's righteousness.

    As such, we may only be doing good for carnal purposes, and not as true children of God. Only God can fully determine when someone fully chooses for his righteousness or not. When he does, he is given by God to become a new creature. Then we also can tell who has truly been saved or not.
    We're almost on the same page so I won't comment to much. Just to clarify my position in my posting. We need;
    1. Atonement for our sins. This we cannot do ourselves. Christ supplies this and its free and by faith in Christ and His work
    2. A New Birth to impart eternal life and the divine nature. This is so we possess the wherewithal to come up to God's image
    3. A POSITIONAL justification for FELLOWSHIP with God. NOTHING we can do is good enough be accepted when it comes to the PRESENCE of God. Thus, God takes Christ's established righteousness and imputes it to us
    4. A DISPOSITIONAL sanctification. This is a transforming Work done by the cooperation of the saint by self denial and correct eating, with the Holy Spirit Who adds the divine elements. This DISPOSITION of Godliness is to be a testimony of God's character by the resultant good works and holy living. This process of transformation into a DISPOSITION of Godliness must be complete in the lifetime of the saint. If so, he/she is REWARDED by being co-kings with Christ when He comes, and joining the Wedding Feast. If it is not complete by the end of the saint's life, he/she suffers a loss by being cast out of the Kingdom and refused entry to the Wedding Feast.

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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    We're almost on the same page so I won't comment to much. Just to clarify my position in my posting. We need;
    1. Atonement for our sins. This we cannot do ourselves. Christ supplies this and its free and by faith in Christ and His work
    2. A New Birth to impart eternal life and the divine nature. This is so we possess the wherewithal to come up to God's image
    3. A POSITIONAL justification for FELLOWSHIP with God. NOTHING we can do is good enough be accepted when it comes to the PRESENCE of God. Thus, God takes Christ's established righteousness and imputes it to us
    4. A DISPOSITIONAL sanctification. This is a transforming Work done by the cooperation of the saint by self denial and correct eating, with the Holy Spirit Who adds the divine elements. This DISPOSITION of Godliness is to be a testimony of God's character by the resultant good works and holy living. This process of transformation into a DISPOSITION of Godliness must be complete in the lifetime of the saint. If so, he/she is REWARDED by being co-kings with Christ when He comes, and joining the Wedding Feast. If it is not complete by the end of the saint's life, he/she suffers a loss by being cast out of the Kingdom and refused entry to the Wedding Feast.
    I take issue, I think, with your #4, because it would eliminate so many people from becoming co-kings with Christ and disallow them entry into the Wedding Feast. For example, the thief on the cross would never have had opportunity to get to this level. People who engage in "deathbed conversions" would be disqualified. Young children who die would be kept outside the Feast of the Wedding, etc. etc.

    I believe we, as Christians, are all on the same level, gaining entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by virtue of having accepted Christ completely, and receiving, as a consequence, the New Birth. Otherwise, I think you're pretty much right on, as far as I can tell. And I enjoy your eloquence in describing these things, and your diligence in arranging your material. You make a good teacher, whether I always agree or not!

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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I take issue, I think, with your #4, because it would eliminate so many people from becoming co-kings with Christ and disallow them entry into the Wedding Feast. For example, the thief on the cross would never have had opportunity to get to this level. People who engage in "deathbed conversions" would be disqualified. Young children who die would be kept outside the Feast of the Wedding, etc. etc.

    I believe we, as Christians, are all on the same level, gaining entry into the Kingdom of Heaven by virtue of having accepted Christ completely, and receiving, as a consequence, the New Birth. Otherwise, I think you're pretty much right on, as far as I can tell. And I enjoy your eloquence in describing these things, and your diligence in arranging your material. You make a good teacher, whether I always agree or not!
    You could not have brought a better example. Let us examine the exchange in Luke 23:42-43.

    42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."


    The criminal must have been either (i) familiar with the teachings of Jesus for the main teaching of Jesus was the Millennial Kingdom, or (ii) had an appreciation of what the superscript above Jesus, that Pilate had ordered, meant. It meant to the criminal, in this case, that our Lord was truly King of the Jews and would eventually inherit His Kingdom. Whatever, the criminal did not address our Lord Jesus about avoiding Gehenna, or going to heaven (like many Christians surmise). The criminal knew that a future Kingdom, with Jesus as Lord, Master and Sovereign King, would be ushered in. So he addresses his position in this Kingdom. But what is the ANSWER?

    Our Lord Jesus completely avoids answering concerning the Kingdom! He answers NOT a word about the criminal's status as regards the Kingdom. He answers concerning where the criminal would be "that day". His faith has saved Him. He has recognized and confessed Jesus as Messiah and coming King. This puts him in an extremely elevated position AMONG THE DEAD. Abraham's Bosom is to be changed to Paradise. The faithful of the Old Testament go to the compartment of Hades were they are "COMFORTED" (Lk.16:25). The evil men of all ages are in "torment" for death robs a man of his body and thus his ability to distract himself with the things that pertain to the flesh. Death is "nakedness". Death is the "last enemy". Man is stripped of his dignity in death, and even without the fires of Gehenna, he is very miserable in death without the comfort of Abraham's Bosom. But now, Abraham is replaced by "Prince of Life". He now sets a new and unheard of standard - "Paradise!" BUT IT IS STILL DEATH! The Kingdom is for the LIVING (1st Cor.15:50-52)!

    The FAITH of the criminal is is immediately effective. BUT WHAT OF HIS WORKS? There are none! Just minutes before he was reviling Jesus (Matt.27:44). It is WORKS that make one eligible for the Kingdom. It is a REWARD set before the believer for a LIFETIME of self-denial, cooperation with the Holy Spirit, a diet of Jesus as the Bread of Life AND the Spirit that wells up into a river in the saint. Good works - not of his own, but those ordained and commanded by Jesus or the Father (Eph.2.10) are what make a man eligible (see my posting #4). Even those believers who did many good and "wondrous" works, but were not ordered to do them, may not enter the Kingdom (Matt.7:21-23). Only those who "did the will of my Father in heaven" may enter the Kingdom. It is no free ride.

    A deathbed conversion makes one eligible for (i) atonement for one's sin and sins, (ii) Eternal Life, (iii) partaking of the divine Nature of God, (iv) being a son of God, (v) resurrection at Christ's coming, and (vi) "seeing" the Kingdom. But to ENTER the Kingdom one must have (i) habitually denied the self, (ii) applied the cross to the flesh, (iii) had a steady diet of Christ, (iv) fostered an intimate relationship with both our Lord Jesus and the Father in heaven, and (v) been OBEDIENT to the indwelling Spirit.

  11. #11
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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    You could not have brought a better example. Let us examine the exchange in Luke 23:42-43.

    42 "And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise."


    The criminal must have been either (i) familiar with the teachings of Jesus for the main teaching of Jesus was the Millennial Kingdom, or (ii) had an appreciation of what the superscript above Jesus, that Pilate had ordered, meant. It meant to the criminal, in this case, that our Lord was truly King of the Jews and would eventually inherit His Kingdom. Whatever, the criminal did not address our Lord Jesus about avoiding Gehenna, or going to heaven (like many Christians surmise). The criminal knew that a future Kingdom, with Jesus as Lord, Master and Sovereign King, would be ushered in. So he addresses his position in this Kingdom. But what is the ANSWER?

    Our Lord Jesus completely avoids answering concerning the Kingdom! He answers NOT a word about the criminal's status as regards the Kingdom. He answers concerning where the criminal would be "that day". His faith has saved Him. He has recognized and confessed Jesus as Messiah and coming King. This puts him in an extremely elevated position AMONG THE DEAD. Abraham's Bosom is to be changed to Paradise. The faithful of the Old Testament go to the compartment of Hades were they are "COMFORTED" (Lk.16:25). The evil men of all ages are in "torment" for death robs a man of his body and thus his ability to distract himself with the things that pertain to the flesh. Death is "nakedness". Death is the "last enemy". Man is stripped of his dignity in death, and even without the fires of Gehenna, he is very miserable in death without the comfort of Abraham's Bosom. But now, Abraham is replaced by "Prince of Life". He now sets a new and unheard of standard - "Paradise!" BUT IT IS STILL DEATH! The Kingdom is for the LIVING (1st Cor.15:50-52)!

    The FAITH of the criminal is is immediately effective. BUT WHAT OF HIS WORKS? There are none! Just minutes before he was reviling Jesus (Matt.27:44). It is WORKS that make one eligible for the Kingdom. It is a REWARD set before the believer for a LIFETIME of self-denial, cooperation with the Holy Spirit, a diet of Jesus as the Bread of Life AND the Spirit that wells up into a river in the saint. Good works - not of his own, but those ordained and commanded by Jesus or the Father (Eph.2.10) are what make a man eligible (see my posting #4). Even those believers who did many good and "wondrous" works, but were not ordered to do them, may not enter the Kingdom (Matt.7:21-23). Only those who "did the will of my Father in heaven" may enter the Kingdom. It is no free ride.

    A deathbed conversion makes one eligible for (i) atonement for one's sin and sins, (ii) Eternal Life, (iii) partaking of the divine Nature of God, (iv) being a son of God, (v) resurrection at Christ's coming, and (vi) "seeing" the Kingdom. But to ENTER the Kingdom one must have (i) habitually denied the self, (ii) applied the cross to the flesh, (iii) had a steady diet of Christ, (iv) fostered an intimate relationship with both our Lord Jesus and the Father in heaven, and (v) been OBEDIENT to the indwelling Spirit.
    I believe that Jesus' gospel was that of a "near Kingdom," which makes itself available to *all* of God's People, whether they've done lots of works or none. To make the Kingdom of God only about an elite group of workers is foreign to anything I've ever heard, except among those who teach the belief in a special group of "overcomers."

    I do think those who work diligently for the Kingdom deserve some kind of recognition. But the purpose is not to elevate them above all others in the Church. Rather, it is to honor their diligence in helping to raise all of God's People to a place of rest.

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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I believe that Jesus' gospel was that of a "near Kingdom," which makes itself available to *all* of God's People, whether they've done lots of works or none. To make the Kingdom of God only about an elite group of workers is foreign to anything I've ever heard, except among those who teach the belief in a special group of "overcomers."

    I do think those who work diligently for the Kingdom deserve some kind of recognition. But the purpose is not to elevate them above all others in the Church. Rather, it is to honor their diligence in helping to raise all of God's People to a place of rest.
    I've come across this mindset throughout society today. If a man keeps the laws and works hard, he usually accumulates wealth. The slothful and lazy then call this group of law-abiding hard workers "elite". The Bible is different. "... and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). So also, in Matthew alone, Matthew 5:12, 6:1, 4-6, 10:41-42, especially Matthew 16:27; "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." So also 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, addressed to Christians alone:

    13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


    I think, for an astute person like you, I need not comment.

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    Re: justification and validation

    Quote Originally Posted by Walls View Post
    I've come across this mindset throughout society today. If a man keeps the laws and works hard, he usually accumulates wealth. The slothful and lazy then call this group of law-abiding hard workers "elite". The Bible is different. "... and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him" (Hebrews 11:6). So also, in Matthew alone, Matthew 5:12, 6:1, 4-6, 10:41-42, especially Matthew 16:27; "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." So also 1 Corinthians 3:13-15, addressed to Christians alone:

    13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."


    I think, for an astute person like you, I need not comment.
    You also are very diligent, and that is commendable. Thank you. And yes, God will reward us for our hard work!

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