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Thread: The Blessed Hope

  1. #31

    Re: The Blessed Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post


    I would like to address Isaiah 24 and 25 as I do not believe that these passages confirms Amillennialism at all. In fact, I would argue that these are some of the clearest chapters in support of premillennialism.
    [FONT=Helvetica][SIZE=3]

    My friend, for the sake of space, lets look at one passage we disagree on.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Isa 25:7 And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.

    Notice that in Rev 20 is the time when the "deception of the nations" is "no more" and in Isaiah 25: 7 is the time when God destroys "the veil the is spread over all nations".

    Paul said that the deception of unbelievers is due to the veil over their hearts

    2 Cor 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    This means that the events of Rev 20 are after the 2nd coming when the nations are no longer deceived.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    [FONT=arial][COLOR=#333333]
    Paul is saying the veil is removed when people come to Christ right now, not in the future.

    And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa.25:7

    Unbelievers aren't "in" this mountain.

    I don't mean to be unkind, but you're interpreting the prophets without the knowledge that Jesus already conquered his enemies. He's now conquering our enemies.

  2. #32
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    Re: The Blessed Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    My friend, for the sake of space, lets look at one passage we disagree on.


    Paul is saying the veil is removed when people come to Christ right now, not in the future.

    I also do not want to be unkind, but I do not know how you are interpreting this verse to be "right now".

    Paul quoted this section of scripture and placed it at the 2nd coming...


    Isa 25:7-8*
    And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. *(8)* He will swallow up death in victory; and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


    Notice that Isaiah places the removal of vail with "Death being swallowed up in victory".

    Now read Paul...

    1Co 15:50-54* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. *(51)* Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— *(52)* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *(53)* For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *(54)* So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."


    Notice that Paul said that the fulfillment of Isaiah 25 happens "WHEN this corruptible has put on incorruption... THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." The "WHEN" and "THEN" statements followed by quote of Isaiah 25 unquestionably places the fulfillment in the future from Paul's day at the time of the Lord coming.

    And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. Isa.25:7

    Unbelievers aren't "in" this mountain.

    I don't mean to be unkind, but you're interpreting the prophets without the knowledge that Jesus already conquered his enemies. He's now conquering our enemies.
    You are reading the verse wrong grammatically. "And" is a conjunction and is showing the relationship between the two clauses. The first clause affects the second clause. The "in the mountain" part is speaking about what God is doing in Jerusalem. The removal of the vail over ALL NATIONS is the OUTCOME. This passage logically doesn't demand that the "nations" are "on this mountain" for God to accomplish this...

    Isa 25:7* And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.*

    What God is doing "on this mountain" is breaking the veil spread OVER THE NATIONS. "This mountain" is consistently referred to as Jerusalem throughout Isaiah. God is using His end time agenda to bring about deliverance for the nations.

    The Septuagint has the same understanding as the Masoretic text regarding this verse as well saying "...You deliver all these things to the nations, for this plan is for all the nations." (Isa 25:7LXX)

    It is what is happening in Jerusalem is being "DELIVERED… TO THE NATIONS".

  3. #33

    Re: The Blessed Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post

    I also do not want to be unkind, but I do not know how you are interpreting this verse to be "right now".

    When Paul says,

    Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away (2Cor.3:16),

    he means when people get saved. He means the veil is removed by faith in Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    Paul quoted this section of scripture and placed it at the 2nd coming...


    Isa 25:7-8*
    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    And he will destroy in this mountain the face of the covering cast over all people, and the vail that is spread over all nations. *(8)*
    He will swallow up death in victory;
    and the Lord GOD will wipe away tears from off all faces; and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth: for the LORD hath spoken it.


    Notice that Isaiah places the removal of vail with "Death being swallowed up in victory".

    Now read Paul...

    1Co 15:50-54* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. *(51)* Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— *(52)* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *(53)* For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *(54)* So
    when this corruptible has put on incorruption,
    and this mortal has put on immortality,
    then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."

    Notice that Paul said that the fulfillment of Isaiah 25 happens "WHEN this corruptible has put on incorruption... THEN shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY." The "WHEN" and "THEN" statements followed by quote of Isaiah 25 unquestionably places the fulfillment in the future from Paul's day at the time of the Lord coming.
    Yes, but death being abolished at the resurrection is the result of our faith in Christ now, not later. The veil has already been removed for us by faith in Christ. We have eternal life in him now. If people live in unbelief until Jesus comes, they will see the veil removed and be destroyed.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Beginner View Post
    [LEFT]
    You are reading the verse wrong grammatically. "And" is a conjunction and is showing the relationship between the two clauses. The first clause affects the second clause. The "in the mountain" part is speaking about what God is doing in Jerusalem. The removal of the vail over ALL NATIONS is the OUTCOME. This passage logically doesn't demand that the "nations" are "on this mountain" for God to accomplish this...

    Isa 25:7* And He will destroy on this mountain The surface of the covering cast over all people, And the veil that is spread over all nations.*

    What God is doing "on this mountain" is breaking the veil spread OVER THE NATIONS. "This mountain" is consistently referred to as Jerusalem throughout Isaiah. God is using His end time agenda to bring about deliverance for the nations.

    The Septuagint has the same understanding as the Masoretic text regarding this verse as well saying "...You deliver all these things to the nations, for this plan is for all the nations." (Isa 25:7LXX)

    It is what is happening in Jerusalem is being "DELIVERED… TO THE NATIONS".
    The mountain Isaiah is prophesying about began with the stone (Dan.2:35.) It's Jesus's followers who preach the gospel whereby all who believe are delivered. Look at our own lives. Is the veil still over us? No. Have we been delivered? Yes. Do we have eternal life? Yes. Its no different than when Isaiah says,

    The people that walked in darkness have seen a great light: they that dwell in the land of the shadow of death, upon them hath the light shined. Is a.9:2

    Did everyone see a great light? Yes.
    Did everyone know it was a great light? No.

    the darkness comprehended it not. Jn.1:5

  4. #34
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    Re: The Blessed Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman View Post
    When Paul says,
    Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away (2Cor.3:16),
    he means when people get saved. He means the veil is removed by faith in Jesus.
    Yes, but death being abolished at the resurrection is the result of our faith in Christ now, not later. The veil has already been removed for us by faith in Christ. We have eternal life in him now. If people live in unbelief until Jesus comes, they will see the veil removed and be destroyed.
    I'll speak for myself, and let Beginner speak for himself. Beginner's point was that in Paul's quotation he placed the destruction of the veil of death *at Christ's 2nd Coming.*

    Here it is as it was presented to you...

    1Co 15:50-54* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. *(51)* Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— *(52)* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *(53)* For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *(54)* So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."


    Now, you are saying that the "veil of death," spoken of in Isaiah, takes place in the believer's life now, or at Christ's resurrection itself. But here, Paul clearly indicates that it takes place *at the 2nd Coming of Christ!* You are asserting something that is contrary to what Paul himself taught!

    Quote Originally Posted by journeyman
    The mountain Isaiah is prophesying about began with the stone (Dan.2:35.)
    No, the "mountain" being spoken of is the mountain of Jerusalem. Isaiah couldn't possibly have been referring to Daniel, since that book hadn't been written yet! The "mountain" is commonly associated with the "mountain of the Lord," which is the mountain upon which God's temple stood. It represents the atoning work of Christ, which was accomplished in the vicinity of Jerusalem. The temple symbolically represented the work of Christ himself, which *later* provides for our resurrection. The resurrection itself takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming.

  5. #35

    Re: The Blessed Hope

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    I'll speak for myself, and let Beginner speak for himself. Beginner's point was that in Paul's quotation he placed the destruction of the veil of death *at Christ's 2nd Coming.*

    Here it is as it was presented to you...

    1Co 15:50-54* Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. *(51)* Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— *(52)* in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. *(53)* For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. *(54)* So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP IN VICTORY."


    Now, you are saying that the "veil of death," spoken of in Isaiah, takes place in the believer's life now, or at Christ's resurrection itself.
    The veil isn't death. The veil is the flesh. Its the outer coat hiding the life inside, like a seed.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    But here, Paul clearly indicates that it takes place *at the 2nd Coming of Christ!* You are asserting something that is contrary to what Paul himself taught!
    What Paul is teaching is the principle of sowing and reaping. You're jumping to the harvest while ignoring the planting.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    No, the "mountain" being spoken of is the mountain of Jerusalem.
    The new Jerusalem, which believers are now, but the focus is on Christ.

    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    Isaiah couldn't possibly have been referring to Daniel, since that book hadn't been written yet!
    I meant as a parallel passage.


    Quote Originally Posted by randyk View Post
    The "mountain" is commonly associated with the "mountain of the Lord," which is the mountain upon which God's temple stood. It represents the atoning work of Christ, which was accomplished in the vicinity of Jerusalem. The temple symbolically represented the work of Christ himself, which *later* provides for our resurrection. The resurrection itself takes place at Christ's 2nd Coming.
    The temple of the Lord is the body of Christ. The veil isn't removed by unbelievers. Brother, if you don't see the veil has already been removed by faith, I don't know what else to tell you.

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